Would you class guild leadership as experience for a job?

Danikat · April 2017

Although I don't work in HR I do occasionally hire people for my organisation, so my work email is registered to a bunch of recruitment sites and periodically gets click-bait "newsletters" with titles like '15 worst application mistakes'. I'm not above a bit of procrastination disguised as work so sometimes I read them. Today's had one example that stood out to me:

"Under 'Leadership skills' the candidate reported that he leads a clan of raiders in his favourite online game."

I have to admit even my first reaction was to groan silently and wonder how anyone could be so stupid. But then I got to thinking: being a guild leader actually isn't that dissimilar to leading people in other situations and certainly my organisation would accept examples like captain of the local football team or a leadership role in an organisation like Scouts or St. Johns Ambulance (although mainly from younger applicants) and that's just 1 night a week, usually with more senior people (or at least older people) there to back you up. And whilst I'm careful about how (and if) I admit it when applying I know I learned a lot of useful skills which I use on a daily basis at work from being a moderator on fan forums as a teenager.

I think really the problem is in the wording. The applicant was probably thinking about the fact that keeping a guild together requires a lot of good people management (even if that's just encouraging a relaxed atmosphere so problems rarely happen) and keeping a successful raiding guild also requires a high level of coordination and skill, and dealing with the inevitable frustration and scape goating when something goes wrong. Whereas to a non-gamer it immediately conjures images of the worst kind of stereotypical geeks laughing to each other over headsets while their badly animated cartoon orcs charge at pixelated NPC villagers who are all making bleep-bloop noises and spitting out random points and coins.

But I'm curious about what other people think (specifically people who know what a guild is, and what an MMO is, hence asking here). Especially if you're involved in hiring people at work. Would you ever put down guild leadership (or anything gaming related?) as experience? Would you consider hiring someone who did?

DeadlyRecluse · April 2017

It it relevant experience? Absolutely. Would I ever put it on a resume? Absolutely not. Never. Nope.

Betheny · April 2017

Sure - put "I spend way too much time playing games" on your resume, see how that goes down.

Bringer · April 2017

Depends on the guild but basically your observations are correct.

Its probably a mistake to someone desperate just because its a gamble that the person doing the hiring actually understand these things. Though you could use this as a sort of employer filter to ensure you get hired by the right kind of place.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2017

Depending upon the job responsibilities it could be very relevant.
Be sure to make it relevant and have details so it's not ambiguous. The more they understand about your qualities, the better candidate you're presented as.

Solariken · April 2017

That's a really interesting question and a very ballsy move on the part of your applicant.

I would personally recognize the value of guild leadership if I were reviewing resumes, but I can guarantee that the majority of the HR world is likely to only conjure semi-ignorant denotations of the gamer geek you described. There could exist more positive biases however in certain tech and media organizations, but even then it's a roll of the dice.

Danikat · April 2017

Of course the other problem is if the interviewer does understand what you're talking about you then have to back it up.

I think if I saw that on an application, and they were otherwise a good candidate, I'd invite them to an interview but I'm absolutely going to bring it up and ask questions like:

How many people in your guild?
What's the turn-over rate?
What kind of events do you organise? Are they built into the game (like running trials) or player-created (like welcome parties for newbies when there's a free trial)?
What kind of a presence do you have outside the game? Facebook? Website? Real-life meet-ups? Who runs those?
What's your guilds biggest achievement? How successful are you at raiding?

For some people that might not be a problem, but I can imagine it catching people out - especially coming from me when I'm dressing up all professional like someone who actually belongs on the interviewer side of the table.

Banana · April 2017

No

WalksonGraves · April 2017

Only if the job was at EB Games and I was 16...

QuebraRegra · April 2017

Depends.... I might count that as a strike initially, but if the candidate could explain in detail the level of organizational skills etc. required if could be a big plus in my book.

in some instances, it's analogous to cat herding I'm sure.

Dao_Jones · April 2017

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

It it relevant experience? Absolutely. Would I ever put it on a resume? Absolutely not. Never. Nope.

Pretty much this. I ran a gaming community for ~6 years, and you engage a lot of pretty useful job skills:

- Conflict resolution
- Motivating people over whom you have no financial or professional leverage
- Leading cross-functional teams in a matrixed environment (i.e. - managing multiple branch leaders who ran our individual guilds in different games, and ensuring they they all delivered a similar "experience" for our members, so that as members jumped from game to game they didn't feel like there was culture shock or rules variations between them)
- Managing remote team members
- Budget management (I don't mean "in game". We ran events, and needed to maintain the cost of our servers for voice chat, forums, Minecraft/other platforms, etc. This relied on several revenue streams.)

But yeah - I also have that experience in my "professional" life, so no need to relate to it via gaming.

Having said that, if someone I were hiring for a position actually had the huevos to list it in their resume, I'd hear them out.

Carokube · April 2017

Yeah no, definitely not putting it on a resume.

However, regardless if I would write it down or not, with my trade guild we have several tracking spreadsheets and formulas that are constantly being maintained. As an officer, you help people do all kinds of things like install add-ons, troubleshoot, etc. We learn and develop a lot of skills that are going to be applicable to life. I know I've learned a lot about google docs just by using them everyday, we become more computer savvy, and we learn tools for conflict management between players.

Some things you can write on a resume (don't have to say where you got it from), and some skills and self-confidence that would naturally make you a better communicator, so you come across more confident in an interview.

I am a manager and I while I don't think I'd turn away someone who put it on there, it wouldn't be something I considered added value when deciding whether or not to interview the candidate. I'd recommend letting it come out organically if you find the situation is appropriate.

Crowdosi · April 2017

No. I takes time to organize and lead a guild in an online world. Personally I would not want an employee that wants to spend that much time in a fantasy world rather than the real world. Not to mention the leadership of an online guild requires no face-to-face interactions. It is much more difficult to lead or even admonish someone when looking them in the eye.

Acrolas · April 2017

Hobby experience can have some value if the candidate lists specific transferable skills gained from that hobby. Or it highlights a job-related strength. Without embellishing, of course.

But 99% of the time, hobbies on a resume are used to get a general idea of personality and risk tolerance. If a candidate fits, and he's regularly a top 10 leaderboard at Tough Mudder, it may be worth a sit-down.

Sure, as a guild master you're directing a significant number of people. But if you had any real-world relationship weight with any of those people, you'd be tapping into that network you've built to find employment, not sending out resumes. And, no, having a Facebook page and Discord does not qualify as building a network.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

Who knows if their guild is even good? I'd need some leader board ranks or something. "How much gold did your guild make last year?"

Runschei · April 2017

Would be correct but I wouldn't do it.

menedhyn · April 2017

I think to mention it at all on a CV is a bold move, but I would never dismiss or make broad assumptions on that person for wanting to include it. Sometimes, people struggle to think up suitable examples in support of meeting the criteria or job specification. I have interviewed and appointed a number of applicants over the years and I have seen similar unorthodox, unusual or weak statements on their CV or application. And yet when called forward for interview, they happened to be some of the most articulate and intelligent people that I have questioned. And yes, they got the job, and they have excelled at it.

Your guild leader might surprise you.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

menedhyn wrote: »

I think to mention it at all on a CV is a bold move, but I would never dismiss or make broad assumptions on that person for wanting to include it. Sometimes, people struggle to think up suitable examples in support of meeting the criteria or job specification. I have interviewed and appointed a number of applicants over the years and I have seen similar unorthodox, unusual or weak statements on their CV or application. And yet when called forward for interview, they happened to be some of the most articulate and intelligent people that I have questioned. And yes, they got the job, and they have excelled at it.

Your guild leader might surprise you.

I'm putting "Slayer of beasts and men" on my business cards.

menedhyn · April 2017

WalksonGraves wrote: »

I'm putting "Slayer of beasts and men" on my business cards.

jakeedmundson · April 2017

Absolutely ZERO amount of gaming experience is equivalent to ANY real life work experience.

If a resume came across my desk for some supervisor/management position and listed, "Elder Scrolls Online Guild Master" in related work experience or even as a hobby... i would giggle a little bit... then calmly toss the resume into the shredder.

duckrustlerb16_ESO · April 2017

I would think most answers here get tempered by the fact they know about guilds and clans etc but for recruitment purposes more information would be needed.

Being leader of a guild is a moot point if you formed said clan and others had a personal gain just from being in it. If a lot of work had to be done to be able to create an online organisation then maybe it would mean something, but if you then stayed a part of that organisation while working for the new employer your motivations would be questioned. Where are your first priorities?

Have to agree with others that putting on a CV that you spend an inordinate amount of spare time playing computer games will likely not go well, especially given the many exeriences employers have of new employee's turning up for work tired out after the last nights play sessions.

Online gaming, even as a hobby, I think does more harm than good on any CV except maybe as a position which needs gaming experience as a prerequisite.

reiverx · April 2017

I once interviewed someone who wouldn't shut up about being captain of the college swimming team. Great, but we're not in the swimming business.

He was not hired.

DocFrost72 · April 2017

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

It it relevant experience? Absolutely. Would I ever put it on a resume? Absolutely not. Never. Nope.

This. The world is not over the, as you so eloquently put it OP, nerd stereotype/FPS teenager view of gamers. While it is an impressive thing to those that know, those that don't will see it as a massive red flag. Society just needs time to catch up and lean is all.

Best case is you gamble and score big with someone who knows what it is. Worst case you get someone who hates video games because they "inspire violence" and "train terrorists."

Rickter · April 2017

My Ops Manager told me that GM was worth putting on a resume. and this is a company that is worth 48 billion USD.

I truly believe that the work involved in running a medium to large guild does in fact deserve some mention in an interview. case in point:

Eocosa · April 2017

Personally I would never even think about it. Is it applicable, actually in many cases yes, however, I wouldn't put that down.

Some things you can personally use as experience of something, but that doesn't quite mean you should claim it for others. Just like with a group of friends, sure one may be more inclined to take charge and will handle all group issues and such, but I wouldn't put that down either.

Admittedly though if they phrased it slightly different I would have to give them some points for creativity while also enough social skills to disguise it a little better "management and leadership experience in competitive recreational organization" has a bit better ring to it in my opinion then guild leader and someone who could flip it around like that would get more points then simply stating "online guild leader".

deepseamk20b14_ESO · April 2017

No.

MyKillv2.0 · April 2017

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

It it relevant experience? Absolutely. Would I ever put it on a resume? Absolutely not. Never. Nope.

I agree with this statement. I am not a GL but if I was, that experience would have benefited me far more in my business management job today than the two years of Health classes that I was forced to take.

Danikat · April 2017

Rickter wrote: »

My Ops Manager told me that GM was worth putting on a resume. and this is a company that is worth 48 billion USD.

I truly believe that the work involved in running a medium to large guild does in fact deserve some mention in an interview. case in point:

I like that. Especially the double meaning in "gained necessary experience that promoted character and skill growth".

I think that's similar to the approach I've used when I've listed being an forum moderator as experience. I don't directly put down that I was a forum moderator, but I do explain what I actually had to do. In one case the fact that it was entirely online was actually very relevant because I was applying for a job where I'd be dealing with clients entirely by phone and email and they specifically said they wanted someone who was comfortable with doing that and understood how to tailor your writing to get the 'tone of voice' across when the person couldn't see or hear you. I got the job and later found out they'd had some candidates who were brilliant in interview but who had a horrible telephone manner - not long after I started they began doing the first round of interviews by phone to try and pick up on that.

Sallington · April 2017

Is teabagging a marketable skill?

brimstone74 · April 2017

It's not worth the risk. I would say this is getting better as Baby Boomers (no offense guys) and some of their biases are organically kinda retiring themselves out of the workforce. Gen X forward you'll see a lot less bias, but it's still there.

I once had a boomer see an mmo referenced in a private email on my personal cell to me from a friend...he called me out...he was in the process of pulling me to his team and promoting me....that email killed the whole thing.

To a lot of folks...gamer = lazy loser.

We know better as far as Guild Leaders and Competitive gaming...but the masses at large do not really buy into this.

The sad thing is if that email was regarding a baseball meet up after work...I likely would have gotten a high five.

jlboozer · April 2017

It does speak of leadership capabilities, but not something I would hire on honestly. Unless it's somehow relevant to your place of business that shoud'nt even be on a application. It just screams "no actual work experience", especially for a leadership role. I would probably give them a chance in a low level position since they're a fellow gamer though and see if it works out...