Why do I have to pay guild fees just to auction stuff off?

Cherryblossom · April 2017

Asardes wrote: »

Frankly, I'm beginning to understand why ZoS has made the trade guild system as it is:
- with limited stalls available there is competition for all, so guilds are pressured to bid higher sums
- guilds in turn put pressure on members to sell more and/or donate, lest they will be kicked
- members feel the pressure to sell, so they adjust their prices accordingly, instead of putting things for sale and forgetting about them.
- all the money swept from the economy by paying for trader and half the sale fees ensure that inflation doesn't get out of hand - gold sink - since there's plenty of non-trade sources for that like questing and vendoring to NPCs - gold springs - housing has been thought out first and foremost as a gold sink

Overall, gold is still very easy to make in this game, even without aiming for it specifically so in time they must come out with something else, once the housing gets saturated.

Nope they created it because they created a mess in the first place and this is the best they can manage as a sticky plaster.

clj94104 · April 2017

stevesherpa wrote: »

My problem isnt with the guild trader system as much as it is with these exclusive trading guilds not allowing for anyone else to sell their goods. Take one of the "sauce" guilds in or Wal Mard - it would be beneficial for them to have MORE using a trader ad they get MORE gold. But they keep the rank and file out and nobody else can make gold in the big hubs.

Then, they use their position to bully other people (dare they critique the guild then they slam you into the ground and black list you).

What server you on? Could you elaborate on their system?

Kiralyn2000 · April 2017

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

Let's put this in another perspective. Let's imagine that 100% of your potential sales for the week total...I dunno, let's lowball it, 50K. Let's assume you're not a super powerseller; 50k potential sales in a week.

Spamming zone chat (which a lot of people have muted, btw) and dealing with the character limit, in addition to the fact that you can only actively sell items when you're online...let's say you only make 20% of your potential sales, or 10K gold.

In a guild trader that asks for a weekly fee of 5k, you not only have the benefit of being able to deal directly with guildies in guild chat, but when you list your items you have the advantage of a) visibility and b) being able to still sell items even when you're offline. As a result, you make, say, 80% of you potential sales, or 40k.

(In both instances I didn't say any one method would allow for 100% of potential sales because let's face it, sometimes things just don't sell.)

At any rate, moral of the story:
No guild trader: 0g in fees, 10k in sales = 10k profit.
Guild trader: 5k in fees, 40k in sales = 35k profit.

So why would anyone complain about 5k in fees when it results in much higher profit overall? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Because 50k in sales a week seems like a huge amount to me? "super powerseller" level. 10k in profit seems amazing, since for me it's "10k in sales vs. a couple hundred gold from vendoring it". But with a lot of time wasted hanging out in chat & then navigating the whole COD(hope you don't get trolled) or meet in person trade, thing.

Eh, whatever. It is a dead horse topic, I just had to vent about it once now that I'm on the forums. /shrug

(still have a hard time understanding how strongly some people defend this garbage system. Only worse MMO selling system I've run across is those f2p/p2w Eastern MMOs that have everyone afk'ing 24hrs/day in the center of town with their characters acting as a vendor "npc".)

Tan9oSuccka · April 2017

It's a crappy system for sure. I don't sell squat in my free guilds. Dues are sadly a thing.

I try to shop the out of the way kiosks, but many sell nothing but garbage.

vamp_emily · April 2017

Anyone that is complaining about guild fees, I challenge you to start a trading guild and then never charge any members a fee, and do not hold any raffles. Then come back and tell me how your challenge went. Did you sell anything? Did you pay for the guild trader?

I recently started a trading guild and it is frustrating. You have members emailing all the time asking "Why didn't we get a trader?", "When are we getting a trader?" or "Why am i not selling anything?".

I had 1 member in the beginning that was generous to donate 100,000g to the guild. Since then I have donated a little over 200,000g. Right now we have close to 350,000 gold sitting in the bank. Will we get a trader next week? I don't know, even if we do it will more than likely be a place that will not cover the cost of the trader.

To me the fee is what I call "The cost of doing business". I don't mind paying 10k each week in a trading guild I am in. We have a good location, and things seem to sell. Sometimes one item I put up for sell will cover the guild fee.

LilySix · April 2017

vamp_emily wrote: »

Anyone that is complaining about guild fees, I challenge you to start a trading guild and then never charge any members a fee, and do not hold any raffles. Then come back and tell me how your challenge went. Did you sell anything, did you pay for the guild trader?

I recently started a trading guild and it is frustrating. You have members emailing all the time asking "Why didn't we get a trader?", "When are we getting a trader?" or "Why am i not selling anything?".

I had 1 member in the beginning that was generous to donate 100,000g to the guild. Since then I have donated a little over 200,000g. Right now we have close to 350,000 gold sitting in the bank. Will we get a trader next week? I don't know, even if we do it will more than likely be a place that will not cover the cost of the trader.

To me the fee is what I call "The cost of doing business". I don't mind paying 10k each week in a trading guild I am in. We have a good location, and things seem to sell. Sometimes one item I put up for sell will cover the guild fee.

When I see what some GM withdraw as money from bank chests, I think to myself that fees are not just used to buy the merchant's location but also and especially that they make money on our backs .

Autolycus · April 2017

It's a design flaw for business-oriented guilds have dues? Do you think Homeowners Associations and Unions are flawed too?

faerigirl · April 2017

vamp_emily wrote: »

Anyone that is complaining about guild fees, I challenge you to start a trading guild and then never charge any members a fee, and do not hold any raffles. Then come back and tell me how your challenge went. Did you sell anything? Did you pay for the guild trader?

I recently started a trading guild and it is frustrating. You have members emailing all the time asking "Why didn't we get a trader?", "When are we getting a trader?" or "Why am i not selling anything?".

I had 1 member in the beginning that was generous to donate 100,000g to the guild. Since then I have donated a little over 200,000g. Right now we have close to 350,000 gold sitting in the bank. Will we get a trader next week? I don't know, even if we do it will more than likely be a place that will not cover the cost of the trader.

To me the fee is what I call "The cost of doing business". I don't mind paying 10k each week in a trading guild I am in. We have a good location, and things seem to sell. Sometimes one item I put up for sell will cover the guild fee.

OK, so the guild members are the stockholders. Which means that the guild leader would be responsible to pay dividends to the members and only have retained earnings to keep the actual traders location (or upgrade it).

Right?

KnsCtyShful · April 2017

I completely understand why guilds charge fees in this game, however the system they have to participate in is horribly flawed.

They need to come up with a better system that each guild having their own trader. This makes participating in the economy incredibly difficult for people who don't have hours to waste (especially on console where there are no mods to help fix the system) trying to find the items they want to buy and figure out how much the items they want to sell are worth.

If I want to buy something (even commodity items) I have to run around to all sorts of guild traders trying to find it wasting most of my play time. Yesterday I wasted 30 minutes trying to find Stinkhorn and Torchbug Thoraxes for my master alchmey writ, and wasn't able to find a single trader with any for sale.

As a casual player with a family and a life (I probably average about an hour a day) generating enough items to sell to be able to pay for the $5K per week fee every week on top of the cut the house takes is too much.

They need to create a universal auction house (that is a good system other MMOs use) and come up with other gold sinks.

The devs for this game have done a really good job on the gameplay of ESO, but I wish they would put the same kind of effort into the economic side of things because that is a huge part of MMOs and it needs to be well built.

IcyDeadPeople · April 2017

LilySix wrote: »

When I see what some GM withdraw as money from bank chests, I think to myself that fees are not just used to buy the merchant's location but also and especially that they make money on our backs .

So how are GMs supposed to get the money to buy all those raffle prizes? I think almost every kind of guild like this could not cover the cost of the trader without holding raffles, auctions, etc.

faerigirl · April 2017

KnsCtyShful wrote: »

I completely understand why guilds charge fees in this game, however the system they have to participate in is horribly flawed.

They need to come up with a better system that each guild having their own trader. This makes participating in the economy incredibly difficult for people who don't have hours to waste (especially on console where there are no mods to help fix the system) trying to find the items they want to buy and figure out how much the items they want to sell are worth.

If I want to buy something (even commodity items) I have to run around to all sorts of guild traders trying to find it wasting most of my play time. Yesterday I wasted 30 minutes trying to find Stinkhorn and Torchbug Thoraxes for my master alchmey writ, and wasn't able to find a single trader with any for sale.

As a casual player with a family and a life (I probably average about an hour a day) generating enough items to sell to be able to pay for the $5K per week fee every week on top of the cut the house takes is too much.

They need to create a universal auction house (that is a good system other MMOs use) and come up with other gold sinks.

The devs for this game have done a really good job on the gameplay of ESO, but I wish they would put the same kind of effort into the economic side of things because that is a huge part of MMOs and it needs to be well built.

Oh man! Here come the dead horse memes

LilySix · April 2017

So you're telling me that they have to take the money in their OWN PRIVATE bank account to buy the trader ?

And that they do it almost everyday ?

10k on monday, 50k on Tuesday, maybe a hundread on wednesday etc ??

idk · April 2017

I do not think OP cares about this conversation as he has not posted in here since he created the thread. I think he realized that what he said is false and cannot be backed up.

vamp_emily · April 2017

LilySix wrote: »

OK, so the guild members are the stockholders. Which means that the guild leader would be responsible to pay dividends to the members and only have retained earnings to keep the actual traders location (or upgrade it).

Right?

I'm not sure what your trying to say.

However, as a guild leader I try my best to bring like minded people together. Just for an example, my Friendly Dungeon Runners guild is one of the best guilds on PC for running group content. Want to know why? It is filled with friendly players that work together. In the beginning I sure didn't do pledges 10 times a day because I had some motive to rip people off.

My trading guild "Blackwaters Merchant" was created for the people of Blackwater Blade campaign. My goal was to bring players from all alliances together and have one location where we can buy and sell PvP rewards ( reducing rng ) and other items to gear our characters.

I understand there are some corrupted leaders out there, but we are not all like that. If for some reason I started charging a fee or having raffles for the trading guild it will not be to rip anyone off. The money would be used to hire a trader.

Also to answer your question, stockholders buy shares of a company but are not guaranteed dividends. Some stockholders win big, and some lose everything.

CapnPhoton · April 2017

I am in 2 trader guilds, one with a top spot every week with no fees. They are out there.

If there were global auction houses, there would be thousands of items of the same kind in one place saturated, and prices would be super low just to compete. then people would be complaining about that. Good for buyers, but a waste of time for sellers. When I played another game with a global system there would be thousands of items of the same. It was often better to just vendor sell things. Having shops throughout the game is more realistic to the overall technology in the game world. You don't see computers with things like ebay, or mass merchandisers with department stores with connected inventory systems, therefore a global system is perhaps not realistic.

Prof_Bawbag · April 2017

Alternatively, get a core of 50 people, create a number of dummy guilds, bid on every spot in the top areas for peanuts and jump for joy when you do it on a weekly basis. That's what a few large guilds do on PS4 EU every week. ZoS have also stated in a ticket response this is how guild trader bidding is intended to work.

They ban people for flipping keeps, but flipping traders is ok according to the responses we got from them.

Strider_Roshin · April 2017

I have two trading guilds, and I don't have to pay guild fees to either of them.

KnsCtyShful · April 2017

CapnPhoton wrote: »

I am in 2 trader guilds, one with a top spot every week with no fees. They are out there.

If there were global auction houses, there would be thousands of items of the same kind in one place saturated, and prices would be super low just to compete. then people would be complaining about that. Good for buyers, but a waste of time for sellers. When I played another game with a global system there would be thousands of items of the same. It was often better to just vendor sell things. Having shops throughout the game is more realistic to the overall technology in the game world. You don't see computers with things like ebay, or mass merchandisers with department stores with connected inventory systems, therefore a global system is perhaps not realistic.

And the fact that I can access my guild store (no matter where the trader is located) from any bank in the world at anytime is realistic?

Sometimes to make a game more usable sacrifices to "realism" have to be made to improve gameplay. This is one of those necessary tradeoffs.

Also if there were enough uses for items there would not be a saturation of items.

Prof_Bawbag · April 2017

I have no issue with people not paying fees, and I do understand why some think it should be a voluntary exercise, however, what does grate on me a little are those people who continuously make requests in guild chat. They ask for armour, crafting of any sort, help farming, help with vet pledges, a specific item and so on, yet give absolutely nothing back in return to the guild. Some of whom then go elsewhere and *** about how they were expected to pay a 5k donation fee.

Guilds aren't always just about the selling, some offer so much more than that.

CapnPhoton · April 2017

KnsCtyShful wrote: »

CapnPhoton wrote: »

I am in 2 trader guilds, one with a top spot every week with no fees. They are out there.

If there were global auction houses, there would be thousands of items of the same kind in one place saturated, and prices would be super low just to compete. then people would be complaining about that. Good for buyers, but a waste of time for sellers. When I played another game with a global system there would be thousands of items of the same. It was often better to just vendor sell things. Having shops throughout the game is more realistic to the overall technology in the game world. You don't see computers with things like ebay, or mass merchandisers with department stores with connected inventory systems, therefore a global system is perhaps not realistic.

And the fact that I can access my guild store (no matter where the trader is located) from any bank in the world at anytime is realistic?

Sometimes to make a game more usable sacrifices to "realism" have to be made to improve gameplay. This is one of those necessary tradeoffs.

Also if there were enough uses for items there would not be a saturation of items.

With another game I played, the auction system was faction based at first. You could look at items for sale by people within your faction and it was ok. Then they simply opened it up global. The auction system then went way downhill for sellers. Where once there were 3 or so pages for an item (of 20 per page), there were now hundreds of pages for each item. The prices for items dropped about 95%. Great news for the buyer, but for sellers it was a waste of time. Even rare items were pennies on the dollar. The saturated market made for cheap everything. People got bored quick because the game got very easy. Server consolidation soon followed when the population dropped way off.

Your not going to get 100% realism in any game. But a global system has its flaws, which is something they seem to want to avoid.

QuebraRegra · April 2017

because they like it that way

GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE NOW!!!!!

tolerate nothing less! join the revolution!

QuebraRegra · April 2017

colig wrote: »

Why is it a flaw? Guild traders are not free.

if we have an auction house, you don't have to worry about that anymore :P

QuebraRegra · April 2017

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

Bit annoyed you have to join a guild just to sell stuff. Yes you can try to spam zone chat and try to list everything using a textbox with a character limit...but good luck with that.

Extremely frustrated that even after a couple of years guild stores lack a basic search function, making you dig through tons of items you don't care about to find what you want, and having to go from NPC to NPC to do this on top of that.

Unique is not the same as useful. A standard auction house would be preferable.

It's a broke ass system.

This isn't going away... this has to change.

bulbousb16_ESO · April 2017

So, start your own guild and don't have fees!

Kylric · April 2017

Guilds are like society in real life.

There are people who pay taxes and support their community while using the system to earn extra spending money.

There are others who focus on who they can get things for free, not pay taxes, yet complain when they don’t have everything they ever wanted because “life is not fair” and “Everyone else is greedy”.

KnsCtyShful · April 2017

CapnPhoton wrote: »

KnsCtyShful wrote: »

CapnPhoton wrote: »

I am in 2 trader guilds, one with a top spot every week with no fees. They are out there.

If there were global auction houses, there would be thousands of items of the same kind in one place saturated, and prices would be super low just to compete. then people would be complaining about that. Good for buyers, but a waste of time for sellers. When I played another game with a global system there would be thousands of items of the same. It was often better to just vendor sell things. Having shops throughout the game is more realistic to the overall technology in the game world. You don't see computers with things like ebay, or mass merchandisers with department stores with connected inventory systems, therefore a global system is perhaps not realistic.

And the fact that I can access my guild store (no matter where the trader is located) from any bank in the world at anytime is realistic?

Sometimes to make a game more usable sacrifices to "realism" have to be made to improve gameplay. This is one of those necessary tradeoffs.

Also if there were enough uses for items there would not be a saturation of items.

With another game I played, the auction system was faction based at first. You could look at items for sale by people within your faction and it was ok. Then they simply opened it up global. The auction system then went way downhill for sellers. Where once there were 3 or so pages for an item (of 20 per page), there were now hundreds of pages for each item. The prices for items dropped about 95%. Great news for the buyer, but for sellers it was a waste of time. Even rare items were pennies on the dollar. The saturated market made for cheap everything. People got bored quick because the game got very easy. Server consolidation soon followed when the population dropped way off.

Your not going to get 100% realism in any game. But a global system has its flaws, which is something they seem to want to avoid.

At the very least they should make the guild traders city based. This way I have 1 place to go to find something in each city instead of having to search on 8 different vendors, I would much prefer region based. This would require little change to how things work now, just have x number of slots per city and guilds can still bid to get one.

I'd rather see it go to a region based system, but city based would be a huge improvement from where it is today with very little disruption.

When D3 had an auction house (while there were flaws) there were enough uses for commodity items that prices stayed at a healthy level for both buyers and sellers. It sounds like in the other game you're talking about there were enough uses for items so there were many more people trying to sell items than people had a need to buy them. So it wasn't the fault of the auction house, rather it was the fault of a poor system that the auction house exposed.

If there is a healthy ratio of the usability of an item vs it's drop rate it will not cause a problem in the economy regardless of the trading system.

Katahdin · April 2017

QuebraRegra wrote: »

golfer.dub17_ESO wrote: »

Bit annoyed you have to join a guild just to sell stuff. Yes you can try to spam zone chat and try to list everything using a textbox with a character limit...but good luck with that.

Extremely frustrated that even after a couple of years guild stores lack a basic search function, making you dig through tons of items you don't care about to find what you want, and having to go from NPC to NPC to do this on top of that.

Unique is not the same as useful. A standard auction house would be preferable.

It's a broke ass system.

This isn't going away... this has to change.

Guild traders are not going away. It will never change Don Quixote

faerigirl · April 2017

vamp_emily wrote: »

LilySix wrote: »

OK, so the guild members are the stockholders. Which means that the guild leader would be responsible to pay dividends to the members and only have retained earnings to keep the actual traders location (or upgrade it).

Right?

I'm not sure what your trying to say.

However, as a guild leader I try my best to bring like minded people together. Just for an example, my Friendly Dungeon Runners guild is one of the best guilds on PC for running group content. Want to know why? It is filled with friendly players that work together. In the beginning I sure didn't do pledges 10 times a day because I had some motive to rip people off.

My trading guild "Blackwaters Merchant" was created for the people of Blackwater Blade campaign. My goal was to bring players from all alliances together and have one location where we can buy and sell PvP rewards ( reducing rng ) and other items to gear our characters.

I understand there are some corrupted leaders out there, but we are not all like that. If for some reason I started charging a fee or having raffles for the trading guild it will not be to rip anyone off. The money would be used to hire a trader.

Also to answer your question, stockholders buy shares of a company but are not guaranteed dividends. Some stockholders win big, and some lose everything.

I was just busting peoples balls. I don't ever, well nearly ever, buy or sell anything in any MMO I have ever played so I don't have a dog in this fight so to speak.

I was in every closed and open beta and played after launch until we got the guild traders and this issue has been going on since then and the AH argument since CBT forums. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment for even reading these same issues again and again.

EllieBlue · April 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Trade guild leaders be like

And the players be like

That's totally incorrect. No guild trade leader gains money from running a trade guild. None. Zero. 0. They always have to pay a large sum of their own money for the weekly trader bid. It's millions each week.

Thank you! There is this myth about trading guild leaders amassing their fortunes from their guildies. You cannot really start a trading guild if you have a mere 50k in your bank. Most trading guild leaders already have a small fortune in their bank before they start one. And the first 3-6 months of the guild existence, guild leaders pay millions and millions out of our own pocket so we can get a good spot in order to get and keep members.

Like vamp-emily said, try setting and running a trading guild before you want to accuse GMs of stealing or getting rich from the guildies. Then try to bid for a spot in places like Mournhold, Elden, RawlKha, Wayrest, Craglorn. A spot out in the swamp in Shadowfen is not the same as a spot in Mournhold. Try to maintain that spot for 6 months. And then come back here and tell us your experience and if you still have the same mindset.

Most GMs are already sitting on millions when they start a trading guild. I have dumped tens of millions in my own gold into the guild bank so we can afford that bid that would see us in Mournhold week after week. We have encountered guildies that want to be in TOP location but not selling, or selling 1000g, and refused to donate a single gold that will help towards the bids. How long do you think that can go on, with the guild barely having sales, therefore, receiving only a few thousand in tax, and trying to maintain a position in those top location? Bids in these locations are not hundreds of thousands. They are in the millions. Where is that money going to come from if you are only selling 1000g and not wanting to donate a single coin to help with the bids? Think about it! You are a dead weight. If you don't want to sell actively, pay tax or donate a few coins, then go and join the guilds outside the main city and live happily ever after. No guild in those main cities I named earlier will keep you longer than a week on their roster. Some will kick you out after 2 days of no sales.

GMs of good trading guild don't need to steal your precious 5000g.. they are probably already sitting on 50-100millions. GMs of trading guild don't make money out of the guild income or members sales. Most makes money from selling hardcore, some even having multiple accounts just for trading. It's pretty common for GM of trading guilds to make 5 million in sales in a week. It's not the GM responsibility to use all his/her income to fund the guild bid, weeks in weeks out. Guildies that sells benefit from the being in the guild and makes good gold from the guild being in a top position so it's only fair if everyone chip in.

It's not for everyone. But no one is forcing you to join any. And if you loathe having to contribute anything to the guild, then go find other guilds that don't ask or require for you sell or contribute anything. There are many out there but you will not find them in the top 5 trading city in Tamriel (PC-EU). I don't know about PC-US.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · April 2017

I don't think you understand economics lol.