no punishment for outposts flipping

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

Man it would be easier to explain to Tom Brady why you can't deflate the damn footballs .Millions of dollars , attorneys and wasted time to explain it exploits the game , period . The game was meant to be played with a fully inflated football Tom ...

Batant · April 2017

I can only congratulate Zenimax on this décision.

Although a question remains unanswered by many players. To know :

Will the PVP grades won be corrected for the persons concerned?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Indeed, I manage a well known pvp guild of players on PS4 and this story has deeply shocked us and disgusted. It's not time the points of alliances won that we are bothering, we pvp honest players. These are the usurped pvp ranks.
I play my rank pvp honestly since the beginning of the game, with the time and investment that it requires. This is an ultimate quest in pvp. And seeing cyrodill walkers with the famous 5-star stolen disgust many of us.

The individuals involved were given a minimum of three days' suspension and the removal of all APs from their accounts. If you are part of it, you have received an email with an official warning.

What about players who have already spent everything in the Akavirois pattern, or in the gold rings since this story?

I do not want to ban players who may never have done that mistake on the game. Nevertheless, in fact, what will be the real impact of a three-day ban on players who Would retain any profit from this cheat upon their return?

For my part, resetting pvp rank would be just punishment.

Still a big thank you for acting.

ps: sorry for my english ;-)

Turelus · April 2017

xRIVALENx wrote: »

They shouldn't have to when something is so blatantly obvious. That being said, the resource flipping ban should have been a good indicator.

They shouldn't no, but when it goes on for two weeks prior to the double AP event and then the double AP event with not a single word from them, whilst multiple threads have people explaining how it's legal because it's not against ToS, then maybe just maybe they should have said "Actually this is against ToS, knock it off".

Personally I don't think ZOS knew if it was or wasn't at the time, I mean they didn't acknowledge it was an issue until I went and did it at posted actual picture evidence in the thread to show them.

I will not debate with anyone that doing it was scummy, nor that people deserve bans. However there is a hell of an issue over communication here which I would love to see addressed.

Mordenkainen · April 2017

What a gem to be found on the forums here while drifting through recent posts.

I've read all 12 pages and I can only say I am amused but also keen on saying 2 cents.

For starters, those people that argue ZOS should have said something - No, you should have read the TOS before setting foot into the game. And that's where the period is already. Common sense of "If I question it, I should propably not do it." might've also helped as a lot here argued with having asked 501 times about it without recieving an answer. It's not that hard to figure out, really.

As an actual roleplayer and PvE player, let me tell you something. The PvP playing section of us roleplayers is a minority and nowadays we certainly do not go to cyrodiil to roleplay where the possibility of random player #12 including his 18 zerg homies would run us over like a train. In case some do not understand, that's a little disrupting for an activity such as roleplaying so we generally keep that out of cyrodiil, for the benefit of both playstyles. We can hardly throw an emote at someone and kill them with it to take a keep, right? Right and you PvPers want murder machines in your groups. There, a clear distinction. One I am fairly certain both sides agree with by default.

So I kindly ask not to p!ss on the roleplayers of ESO here and not to use that as the fantasized invalid arguing point it is. Leave us out of that crap and take your bans like men.

Thank you.

Turelus · April 2017

Mordenkainen wrote: »

So I kindly ask not to p!ss on the roleplayers of ESO here and not to use that as the fantasized invalid arguing point it is. Leave us out of that crap and take your bans like men.

The roleplay angle is a joke and was done entirely as a joke. I myself and many I met in the guild were actually roleplayers who have respect for it, it was just that joke which caught on and was funny to laugh about.

I don't think it was meant at all in offence of the RP community.

Rickter · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Mordenkainen wrote: »

So I kindly ask not to p!ss on the roleplayers of ESO here and not to use that as the fantasized invalid arguing point it is. Leave us out of that crap and take your bans like men.

The roleplay angle is a joke and was done entirely as a joke. I myself and many I met in the guild were actually roleplayers who have respect for it, it was just that joke which caught on and was funny to laugh about.

I don't think it was meant at all in offence of the RP community.

dont feed the trolls @Turelus

Turelus · April 2017

Rickter wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Mordenkainen wrote: »

So I kindly ask not to p!ss on the roleplayers of ESO here and not to use that as the fantasized invalid arguing point it is. Leave us out of that crap and take your bans like men.

The roleplay angle is a joke and was done entirely as a joke. I myself and many I met in the guild were actually roleplayers who have respect for it, it was just that joke which caught on and was funny to laugh about.

I don't think it was meant at all in offence of the RP community.

dont feed the trolls @Turelus

Wait that was a... FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

BRB going to buy more acid flasks and spark scrolls.

andy_s · April 2017

The hypocrisy is so strong here. If ZOS would punish all players who made at least 3kk ap near outposts, then cyrodiil would be dead for 3 days

Also thanks to @Jaybe_Mawfaka for this video, still watching in 2017 and getting laughs (all yellows from this footage were also roleplaying at outposts, but luckly fo them didn't fall into the "top offenders" group

)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E88_tZx7f4k

@Meneltor Kappa

Meneltor · April 2017

@andy_s. The hypocrisy is so strong here. If ZOS would punish all players who made at least 3kk ap near outposts, then cyrodiil would be dead for 3 days Also thanks to @Jaybe_Mawfaka for this video, still watching in 2017 and getting laughs (all yellows from this footage were also roleplaying at outposts, but luckly fo them didn't fall into the "top offenders" group )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E88_tZx7f4k

It was long time ago when Master Kain was playing, he asked me to help to protect keeps. I didn't give the AP - Sheey. We just defended the fortress.

Idinuse · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am not saying what happened is right by any means, people knew it was a jerk move but they had no basis to believe it was against the ToS.

Well, some already had been sanctioned over flipping roe bugged mine just a few weeks ago... so they could have guessed.
And it was not unforeseen, zos had been warned of this behaviour as soon as information on ap value was known.

The mine was actually a bug though, so that's where we enter the "it's wrong because it's bugged" which Brian said it wasn't intended, but didn't say "trading for AP is not allowed".

Again, glad ZOS did this, I want more of it. However we need to know their rules for Cyrodiil at the same time.

Are you for real? Just stop it, everyone who got banned deserves it and everyone of those who are pissed and leave the game make the game a better place. They knew it may be exploiting---> ToS says if you are not sure don't do it. They did it ----> they risked the ban and deserved it
End of the discussion.

Please point to where I said people don't deserve bans. Please also point to where in the or said by a developer (before Jessica's post) it was stated trading AP was a breach of ToS.

Jessica said it herself.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

As this is the first time we've publicly taken mass action on accounts for this behavior, we've kept it to a three-day suspensions and removal of all AP from the top offenders.

They've never before stepped in and taken action against anything like this and there was a precedent set by that (and their lack of condemning it) that trading with other players wasn't against ToS.

I'm not saying those banned were unjustly banned, I am not saying they were good people for doing this. I am saying that ZOS saying "you should have known" isn't fair because there wasn't anything to support this was against ToS.

I am asking that ZOS now comes out and makes a simple pinned thread with actions within Cyrodiil which are against ToS but are not direct exploits of broken mechanics. As new players joining the game have no information to say they shouldn't gap close into a keep, they shouldn't make spies and run scrolls etc.

I find it hilarious that the hardest word contortionists can't even quote Jessica and present an accurate interpretation of the actual wording in the quoted text.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

As this is the first time we've publicly taken mass action on accounts for this behavior, we've kept it to a three-day suspensions and removal of all AP from the top offenders.

The key here being publicly . You have no true knowledge of what Zos has done prior to these bans that has not been publicly reported.

It's just speculations, guessing, outright lies or in other ways fantasized facts and excuses. But I find it very amusing, as it is like listening to 5 year olds making up lies (we were RPing), excuses (taking flags is intended, even without fighting) and blames (It's Zos' fault, we asked if we can cheat and got no answer) as to why they did some shenanigans.

And this post from Brian Wheeler on February 9th should have sent a signal to everyone that messing with AP farming/swapping is not an awesome idea. And as far as I'm able to tell these bans were for continuously farming AP between factions up until the bans, not particularly for the double AP no CP week.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3783519/#Comment_3783519

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

We have the list of all players in the EU and NA that gained AP from Black Boot Mine and discussing what actions to take with that information.

Hopefully this will send a signal to any and all that have a mindset of "You can report me as much as you like, I won't get banned" mentality.

Prince_of_all_Pugs · April 2017

i can honestly say that for the NA PC double XP weekend if anyone caught exchanging AP for outpost trading was either Either Zerged down by DR as punishment or Exposed by animosity. PC NA can be a Little toxic at times but atleast we police our own.

L2Pissue · April 2017

Prince_of_all_Pugs wrote: »

i can honestly say that for the NA PC double XP weekend if anyone caught exchanging AP for outpost trading was either Either Zerged down by DR as punishment or Exposed by animosity. PC NA can be a Little toxic at times but atleast we police our own.

"Police our own"
LOL
whats the fun in that, interfering with other players play style? luckily im not in NA
i may got suspended for 3 days, but the fun i had at bleakers did not have in 3 years of playing ESO

Kyoma · April 2017

Sigh, you still dont seem to get it.... It was never clear if the thing with BB Mine was ALSO because of the flipping and not just the BUGGED AP gains from it.

Anhedonie · April 2017

andy_s wrote: »

The hypocrisy is so strong here. If ZOS would punish all players who made at least 3kk ap near outposts, then cyrodiil would be dead for 3 days Also thanks to @Jaybe_Mawfaka for this video, still watching in 2017 and getting laughs (all yellows from this footage were also roleplaying at outposts, but luckly fo them didn't fall into the "top offenders" group )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E88_tZx7f4k

@Meneltor Kappa

Man, that soundtrack is the best.

Malveria · April 2017

Gotta congratulate Zenimax on it's blatant inconsistency in handing out punishments.

You punish people that exploited an unfair AP advantage, but not the EP that exploited an unfair XP advantage that resulted in them getting 1000 CP when people on other factions had only 100 to 300. (This has been confirmed by numerous EP. I even know the exact quest that it was. Don't even try and argue it).

Did you release any rules about the AP weekend? Was there a 'do not flip keeps' rule in there? Because I think I missed the downloadable PDF.

You punish people who cooperated with another faction to take advantage of something you actually implemented, with a mechanic that is actually working as you intended, just not in a way you intended, but you won't punish people that have been proven to use exploits that give them a literal unfair advantage over people because they are using things the way they are not intended to be used. Like the exploits that are happening right now.

You punish people that exploited a lot of AP farming, but not those that did it a little. Because it was pretty obvious that AP exploiting was happening when you changed the resource/keep offensive ticks. So are we able to use hacks and Cheat Engine as long as we use it for only 30 minutes or so?

It's even more laughable that you won't punish the people on the NA PC servers that exploited a resource you acknowledges was bugged.

I think the most impressive part is that Zenimax actually decided to punish people. Even if the 'decision' appears to be the equivalent of throwing darts at a board.

Blindfolded.

Vizeroh · April 2017

Malveria wrote: »

Gotta congratulate Zenimax on it's blatant inconsistency in handing out punishments.

You punish people that exploited an unfair AP advantage, but not the EP that exploited an unfair XP advantage that resulted in them getting 1000 CP when people on other factions had only 100 to 300. (This has been confirmed by numerous EP. I even know the exact quest that it was. Don't even try and argue it).

Did you release any rules about the AP weekend? Was there a 'do not flip keeps' rule in there? Because I think I missed the downloadable PDF.

You punish people who cooperated with another faction to take advantage of something you actually implemented, with a mechanic that is actually working as you intended, just not in a way you intended, but you won't punish people that have been proven to use exploits that give them a literal unfair advantage over people because they are using things the way they are not intended to be used. Like the exploits that are happening right now.

You punish people that exploited a lot of AP farming, but not those that did it a little. Because it was pretty obvious that AP exploiting was happening when you changed the resource/keep offensive ticks. So are we able to use hacks and Cheat Engine as long as we use it for only 30 minutes or so?

It's even more laughable that you won't punish the people on the NA PC servers that exploited a resource you acknowledges was bugged.

I think the most impressive part is that Zenimax actually decided to punish people. Even if the 'decision' appears to be the equivalent of throwing darts at a board.

Blindfolded.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · April 2017

Seems like they did pretty well considering they were blindfolded @Malveria

6537239-Dartboard-with-three-darts-in-a-bulls-eye-Stock-Photo.jpg

tradewith2017 · April 2017

xRIVALENx wrote: »

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
hey
can you please tell us wich part of ToS this behav violated?
because i cannot find any

"roleplaying" in PVP its not an exploit but just clever way to pvp for some people

Section 8 - Rules of Conduct.

Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;

Coordinated flipping of keeps without combat was not intended by ZOS, the mechanic was exploited.

not an exploit
next pls

Ron_Burgundy_79 · April 2017

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
hey
can you please tell us wich part of ToS this behav violated?
because i cannot find any

"roleplaying" in PVP its not an exploit but just clever way to pvp for some people

Section 8 - Rules of Conduct.

Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;

Coordinated flipping of keeps without combat was not intended by ZOS, the mechanic was exploited.

not an exploit
next pls

It was an exploit. People were banned because of it. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's an excuse.

Rickter · April 2017

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

not an exploit
next pls

what kind of arrogant garbage is this?

yes it was an exploit. even by literal definition. AP is considered a "virtual currency" and they farmed it through dishonest means. like, the nerve. .

Kyoma · April 2017

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

xRIVALENx wrote: »

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
hey
can you please tell us wich part of ToS this behav violated?
because i cannot find any

"roleplaying" in PVP its not an exploit but just clever way to pvp for some people

Section 8 - Rules of Conduct.

Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;

Coordinated flipping of keeps without combat was not intended by ZOS, the mechanic was exploited.

not an exploit
next pls

It was an exploit. People were banned because of it. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's an excuse.

ZOS has deemed it an exploit, yes. But they didn't exactly make that clear before the double AP week started.

Beesting · April 2017

The thing that pisses me off the most is that they only suspended 170 people where it should have been at least 1500, i was there, i saw so many people involved. If it is a crime it should not matter if you participate for 2 hours, 2 days or 5 days, on one toon or on 6 different ones just trying to unlock vigor / prox deton while afk

There are a lot of people with butter on their heads, but you wont see them writing about it.
the server was poplocked for days with a 45 min queue on it and everyone was there for only one reason.

and the fact zenimax did not take five minutes of their time to post one comment that it was not allowed but they would not bring down the server to hotfix it.
If you compare this to the communication about the jester festival ending one day early, they made a comment right away and then hotfixed it the next day just makes me feel i was abused on purpose

would i have known i would be suspended i would not have taken part and spent my 90 hours playtime differently.
You can laugh all you like about my saltiness but i feel i was baited into wasting my time, and now i just lost all trust in them tbh
I wonder why i even came back to this game after 14 months to check out the pvp. just to be punished for the noob that i am.

Rickter · April 2017

Beesting wrote: »

The thing that pisses me off the most is that they only suspended 170 people where it should have been at least 1500, i was there, i saw so many people involved. If it is a crime it should not matter if you participate for 2 hours, 2 days or 5 days, on one toon or on 6 different ones just trying to unlock vigor / prox deton while afk

There are a lot of people with butter on their heads, but you wont see them writing about it.
the server was poplocked for days with a 45 min queue on it and everyone was there for only one reason.

and the fact zenimax did not take five minutes of their time to post one comment that it was not allowed but they would not bring down the server to hotfix it.
If you compare this to the communication about the jester festival ending one day early, they made a comment right away and then hotfixed it the next day just makes me feel i was abused on purpose

would i have known i would be suspended i would not have taken part and spent my 90 hours playtime differently.
You can laugh all you like about my saltiness but i feel i was baited into wasting my time, and now i just lost all trust in them tbh
I wonder why i even came back to this game after 14 months to check out the pvp. just to be punished for the noob that i am.

I suspect there was more discussion involving the AP farming than the jesters festival.

The Jesters festival was an obvious bug or glitch that caused the issue. the AP farming is under an entirely different category because it was a massive amount of players abusing an otherwise designed issue.

I think whoever was the final say, may have been unavailable or heated discussion occured behind closed doors. Like seriously who determines what is an exploit and how harsh the punishment should be? they took a lot of things into account im sure. but Brian Wheeler doesnt have the final say, Gina Bruno surely doesnt, so maybe Eric Wrobel? but when you are talking about bans, i think that goes to the top - even investors might be able to make that decision and so when it came to bans, that may have been outside ZOS's immediate hands and we all know what happens when you throw a middle man in it.

i dont think bans should have happened at all. i think AvA ranks should have been blasted for EVERYONE involved and AP removed and Achievements removed. SHAME SHAME SHAME!!

RebornV3x · April 2017

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

As this is the first time we've publicly taken mass action on accounts for this behavior, we've kept it to a three-day suspensions and removal of all AP from the top offenders.

So you guys implemented 2xp AP gains knowing full well people would take advantage and did nothing and then after the fact banned people and removed ap of players who took advantage so guessing pvp was completely dead for 3 days since you would have to literally ban thosands of players good way to kill pvp.

Secondly you have all the time to track and ban all these players but can't fix lag in Cyrodill or fix trials on console wow just wow your priorities are messed up

Unless it's banning players for literally nothing and playing the game and crown crates I guess ZOS doesn't care about the game.

This would be like 1 week without speed limits then arresting everyone that went faster than 75mph after the fact like the state knows people are gonna go over the speed limit.

This should be a learning moment for Zos that people are going to take advantage of the system and to figure out ways to limit it in the future but to punish people after the fact is wrong. So Zos messed up and we the players get punished wtf glad I barely play this game anymore this is so dumb.

Arthg · April 2017

RebornV3x wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

As this is the first time we've publicly taken mass action on accounts for this behavior, we've kept it to a three-day suspensions and removal of all AP from the top offenders.

So you guys implemented 2xp AP gains knowing full well people would take advantage and did nothing and then after the fact banned people and removed ap of players who took advantage so guessing pvp was completely dead for 3 days since you would have to literally ban thosands of players good way to kill pvp.

Secondly you have all the time to track and ban all these players but can't fix lag in Cyrodill or fix trials on console wow just wow your priorities are messed up

Unless it's banning players for literally nothing and playing the game and crown crates I guess ZOS doesn't care about the game.

This would be like 1 week without speed limits then arresting everyone that went faster than 75mph after the fact like the state knows people are gonna go over the speed limit.

This should be a learning moment for Zos that people are going to take advantage of the system and to figure out ways to limit it in the future but to punish people after the fact is wrong. So Zos messed up and we the players get punished wtf glad I barely play this game anymore this is so dumb.

WTF have I just read.
Ain't no PvB, players vs. Bleakers, it's PvP, players vs. *players*.
Double AP gain never meant you could sit on your thumbs and wait for players from *adverse* factions to flip the flag.
It never was a free pass to drive over the speed limit.

WTF have lag issues got anything to do with all this? Do you not think it's much easier to check players' activity at a given time in a given place than sort out client/server, graphic, clipping, hardware, etc. issues? Seriously?

Suck it up, and move on - there's many of us think you got away from it all a tad too easily already.

Vitaely · April 2017

RebornV3x wrote: »

This would be like 1 week without speed limits then arresting everyone that went faster than 75mph after the fact like the state knows people are gonna go over the speed limit.

Let's get realistic with those metaphors:

You got one week without speed limits, flew a jet plane down the street.
You got one week with double the speed limits, drove your car with triple the speed limit.
You got one week with triple the speed limits, tied 3 cars together to ride down the street, disrupted the traffic for everyone else.

Then complained you got a small fine. A small fine, indeed.

Please read TOS before you get any service from any company.

tradewith2017 · April 2017

thing is i farmed like 8kk AP with this event, but i spent all of them for style chapters
i wasnt banned but if zos decide to do it - they cant take away my AP

owned

L2Pissue · April 2017

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

thing is i farmed like 8kk AP with this event, but i spent all of them for style chapters
i wasnt banned but if zos decide to do it - they cant take away my AP

owned

kids must be reporting you already

Cinbri · April 2017

L2Pissue wrote: »

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

thing is i farmed like 8kk AP with this event, but i spent all of them for style chapters
i wasnt banned but if zos decide to do it - they cant take away my AP

owned

kids must be reporting you already

Reading your the very first post, than reading what zos did and knowing which people got permaban for it I can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4

Because I can

L2Pissue · April 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

L2Pissue wrote: »

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

thing is i farmed like 8kk AP with this event, but i spent all of them for style chapters
i wasnt banned but if zos decide to do it - they cant take away my AP

owned

kids must be reporting you already

Reading your the very first post, than reading what zos did and knowing which people got permaban for it I can
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4

Because I can

I did not get perma banned

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ5LpwO-An4