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Remove Major Evasion, Replace with new Major Deflection
Solariken
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With Morrowind and battlegrounds coming up, I am hoping ZOS will revisit some of the over-performing and under-designed mechanics in the game, namely Major Evasion.
There are plenty of threads and comments discussing why Major Evasion is poor design and bad for the game and both PvP/PvE balance. Passive dodge chance makes little sense in a game with excellent active dodge mechanics and it is incredibly frustrating to have fights decided by the passive dodge of an ultimate ability or tactically placed CC. I want to offer another solution that I think would be a great change.
Replace the current 15% passive dodge chance with a X% chance to deflect/parry direct attacks, causing them to deal 50% damage. All CC and debuffs will still apply unless mitigated by some other means. Perhaps a reasonable parry chance would be 33%.
Additionally, the new Major Deflection buff should be reduced to ~18 seconds within Shuffle which has a nice snare purge. The Elude morph could increase duration as it does now plus reduce cost slightly to make it attractive versus Shuffle.
Major Evasion could perhaps remain in the game but be exclusive to the Spectre's Eye crafted set to give it unique value as a crafted set.
I also know ZOS plans to give the Warden Minor Evasion, so perhaps they might consider giving the new class Minor Deflection instead.
What do you guys think? Yay or nay? @Wrobel
Edited by Solariken on April 5, 2017 4:07PM There are plenty of threads and comments discussing why Major Evasion is poor design and bad for the game and both PvP/PvE balance. Passive dodge chance makes little sense in a game with excellent active dodge mechanics and it is incredibly frustrating to have fights decided by the passive dodge of an ultimate ability or tactically placed CC. I want to offer another solution that I think would be a great change.
Replace the current 15% passive dodge chance with a X% chance to deflect/parry direct attacks, causing them to deal 50% damage. All CC and debuffs will still apply unless mitigated by some other means. Perhaps a reasonable parry chance would be 33%.
Additionally, the new Major Deflection buff should be reduced to ~18 seconds within Shuffle which has a nice snare purge. The Elude morph could increase duration as it does now plus reduce cost slightly to make it attractive versus Shuffle.
Major Evasion could perhaps remain in the game but be exclusive to the Spectre's Eye crafted set to give it unique value as a crafted set.
I also know ZOS plans to give the Warden Minor Evasion, so perhaps they might consider giving the new class Minor Deflection instead.
What do you guys think? Yay or nay? @Wrobel
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Does Carrie Day have a forum account? I was hoping to tag her so that she might see this as well.0 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a medium armor stamina-only user, I can get behind this. Passive dodge chance is one of many examples of a skill or set making up for actual gameplay skill. I fully support it being swapped for an ability that allows for actual mitigation, as well as making both morphs viable (seriously, does ANYONE use elude??)@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
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Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'm all for major deflection, but the proc chance should be more like 30% in order to make it on par with Evasion. Anything less will be a big nerf. Personally I would like them to remove the RNG dodge entirely, and make everything dodgeable. Reward skill, not luck. ZOS seems to punish medium armor more, and more with each update. If there were just as many abilities in this game that went through damage shields as there are abilities that can't be dodged; the forums would be flooded with complaints.8 -
Ocelot9x✭✭✭✭✭Still people complaining about stamina? Lol! Sorry for being rude,but this change makes no sense. 20% of mitigating 50% damage. Why not make evasion a stamina shield stackable with a stamina scaling version of bone shield? No more RNG involved
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OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Still people complaining about stamina? Lol! Sorry for being rude,but this change makes no sense. 20% of mitigating 50% damage. Why not make evasion a stamina shield stackable with a stamina scaling version of bone shield? No more RNG involved
OP plays a pretty nice stamina toon, and major evasion isn't unique to just stamina. The discussion is about the mechanic of major evasion as a buff, not stamina classes.
I don't agree with the major deflection idea or the current major evasion mechanic, but I'd be okay with a buff that increases root immunity or snare immunity or something. Or at least a buff that reduces those mechanics by X amount, for the cost of resources.Edited by OdinForge on April 5, 2017 3:42PMThe Age of Wrobel.2 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm okay with a parry but the % would have to be higher than what you suggest. I would say 30% to 35%. I would also say keep the current shuffle added buff (remove snares) but make the other moroh "if on successful parry gain minor endurance" or some other minor buff for 4 seconds.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!0 -
Ocelot9x✭✭✭✭✭I'm totally in for a non RNG change but this way seems just a nerf. Maybe something like no increasing roll cost while slotted and snare immunity for 4/5sec upon activation1
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Strider_Roshin @deepseamk20b14_ESO
You guys are right, the % chance would need to be higher for sure, and I'm sure ZOS has some metrics to find an appropriate value for their target survivability. I'll change the % in my OP though so it doesn't cloud people's judgement of the proposed change.2 -
utb99✭✭✭Shuffle could give Major deflection and a minor immunity to Snares
Elude could give Minor deflection and major immunity to snares'The gods can turn anything to good' -Martin Septim2 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »I'm all for major deflection, but the proc chance should be more like 30% in order to make it on par with Evasion. Anything less will be a big nerf. Personally I would like them to remove the RNG dodge entirely, and make everything dodgeable. Reward skill, not luck. ZOS seems to punish medium armor more, and more with each update. If there were just as many abilities in this game that went through damage shields as there are abilities that can't be dodged; the forums would be flooded with complaints.
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If it mitigates EVERY damage (or at least blockable damage) then it could be at least interesting. Without it, it just huge nerf to medium builds.2 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »If it mitigates EVERY damage (or at least blockable damage) then it could be at least interesting. Without it, it just huge nerf to medium builds.
It wouldn't be a nerf at all, you can make the math work out exactly the same by increasing the proc chance to offset the reduction in mitigation.0 -
Asardes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Make a DK and flap.Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »If it mitigates EVERY damage (or at least blockable damage) then it could be at least interesting. Without it, it just huge nerf to medium builds.
It wouldn't be a nerf at all, you can make the math work out exactly the same by increasing the proc chance to offset the reduction in mitigation.
Thats not how it works you know. Dodge is far better than 100% damage mitigation. Dodging skills is the main defense of medium builds. Your secondary defense should either supplement it in downtime or work with it. This way it would literally be better skill the less you dodge (which technically is true even for current evasion, but that RNG dodged hard hitters and CC are what makes up for it)Edited by SodanTok on April 5, 2017 6:43PM0 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭Let NB's keep major evasion in class tree, everyone else can get it from spectres eye (buff to magblade if you make the morphs even better)
You can do whatever you want to medium armours skill now, and please do something with heavy armours skill, not going to say it is useless but the last time I saw someone use it he was trying to stack it with hardened armour =|The Flyers0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Still people complaining about stamina? Lol! Sorry for being rude,but this change makes no sense. 20% of mitigating 50% damage. Why not make evasion a stamina shield stackable with a stamina scaling version of bone shield? No more RNG involved
Well it would match block values. Well fitt traits could increase the dmg mitigation but you shouldnt get a passive way to completely ignore a spell. Split the mitigation of dodge so that you need to give up other traits.
At least shields take full dmg and you have to keep using the spell every 6 seconds. Burn, Cc, burst, GG.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »If it mitigates EVERY damage (or at least blockable damage) then it could be at least interesting. Without it, it just huge nerf to medium builds.
It wouldn't be a nerf at all, you can make the math work out exactly the same by increasing the proc chance to offset the reduction in mitigation.
Thats not how it works you know. Dodge is far better than 100% damage mitigation. Dodging skills is the main defense of medium builds. Your secondary defense should either supplement it in downtime or work with it. This way it would literally be better skill the less you dodge (which technically is true even for current evasion, but that RNG dodged hard hitters and CC are what makes up for it)
I may not understand your point above, but even the mechanic I proposed will generally outperform shields by a large margin, especially as the number of opponents increases. Again, I am not proposing an explicit nerf to damage mitigation, but I am DEFINITELY proposing a nerf to 100% avoidance and especially CC avoidance - those shenanigans need to gtfo.3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »If it mitigates EVERY damage (or at least blockable damage) then it could be at least interesting. Without it, it just huge nerf to medium builds.
It wouldn't be a nerf at all, you can make the math work out exactly the same by increasing the proc chance to offset the reduction in mitigation.
Thats not how it works you know. Dodge is far better than 100% damage mitigation. Dodging skills is the main defense of medium builds. Your secondary defense should either supplement it in downtime or work with it. This way it would literally be better skill the less you dodge (which technically is true even for current evasion, but that RNG dodged hard hitters and CC are what makes up for it)
I may not understand your point above, but even the mechanic I proposed will generally outperform shields by a large margin, especially as the number of opponents increases. Again, I am not proposing an explicit nerf to damage mitigation, but I am DEFINITELY proposing a nerf to 100% avoidance and especially CC avoidance - those shenanigans need to gtfo.
As I said, if it would be any damage mitigation and not just damage that is dodgeable it would at least supplement active dodge rolling. Without it it is just huge nerf to medium armor builds aka the dying breed, while the heavy wouldnt probably notice.0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭What I would do is
(!!!!!!!!)Tone down roots dramatically (no more gap closer mini snare, no more aoe root SPAM, increase root costs a bit)
Make all gap closers ground based (Yes even teleport strike).
Make root dispel evasion.
Make evasion dispel root.
Make cc immunity from a break apply to all sources of cc/snare/root/etc not just the caster.
Make break immunity very very slightly shorter.
!!!!The first thing in this list is critical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you can see holes in this by all means point them out.Edited by Cathexis on April 5, 2017 11:09PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wait people would trust zos to have a skill that has a 30 percent chance at deflecting damage back? The way zos code things it'll proc all the time, I can just see how broke that could be already.
Let me remind you medium users aren't the only one's that can use shuffle nor is it only used by squishy player's, keep that in mind.1 -
t3hdubzy✭✭✭✭I like the parry idea, but i dislike how its been presented. I would use it as a split second counter.
Make it an actual skill that has to be timed. Base skill causes attacker to be susceptible to 20 percent increase damage for 3 seconds. Active for 1.7 seconds.
Morphs could be
Melee defender stamina
Next melee attack in 1.7 seconds deals 30 percent damage back to the attacker, and stuns them for 2 seconds.
Projectile defender stamina
Next projectile within 3 seconds will be reduced damage by 50 percent and marks attacker. Preventing them from returning to stealth for 20 seconds. Could have additional effects as well such as minor defile.
Make the cost reasonable but not cheap enough to spam. Increase cost on additional uses or have a cool down period.
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Wait people would trust zos to have a skill that has a 30 percent chance at deflecting damage back? The way zos code things it'll proc all the time, I can just see how broke that could be already.
Let me remind you medium users aren't the only one's that can use shuffle nor is it only used by squishy player's, keep that in mind.Make a DK and flap.
@Asardes @CatchMeTrolling
It's DE-flect (like parry), not RE-flect like a Dk has.1 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I like the parry idea, but i dislike how its been presented. I would use it as a split second counter.
Make it an actual skill that has to be timed. Base skill causes attacker to be susceptible to 20 percent increase damage for 3 seconds. Active for 1.7 seconds.
Morphs could be
Melee defender stamina
Next melee attack in 1.7 seconds deals 30 percent damage back to the attacker, and stuns them for 2 seconds.
Projectile defender stamina
Next projectile within 3 seconds will be reduced damage by 50 percent and marks attacker. Preventing them from returning to stealth for 20 seconds. Could have additional effects as well such as minor defile.
Make the cost reasonable but not cheap enough to spam. Increase cost on additional uses or have a cool down period.
While I find your suggestion very interesting, I think ZOS would be more likely to operate within the current paradigm for medium armor mitigation. However, your suggestion would make for a pretty cool new type of skill some time down the road.Edited by Solariken on April 6, 2017 12:09AM0 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Wait people would trust zos to have a skill that has a 30 percent chance at deflecting damage back? The way zos code things it'll proc all the time, I can just see how broke that could be already.
Let me remind you medium users aren't the only one's that can use shuffle nor is it only used by squishy player's, keep that in mind.Make a DK and flap.
@Asardes @CatchMeTrolling
It's DE-flect (like parry), not RE-flect like a Dk has.
Then what would be the point, essentially deflecting just to make the opponent miss is not too different than dodging, at the end of the day you're not getting hit either way. Unless I'm missing something here, now deflecting like genji in overwatch there would be a difference.
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Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Wait people would trust zos to have a skill that has a 30 percent chance at deflecting damage back? The way zos code things it'll proc all the time, I can just see how broke that could be already.
Let me remind you medium users aren't the only one's that can use shuffle nor is it only used by squishy player's, keep that in mind.Make a DK and flap.
@Asardes @CatchMeTrolling
It's DE-flect (like parry), not RE-flect like a Dk has.
Then what would be the point, essentially deflecting just to make the opponent miss is not too different than dodging, at the end of the day you're not getting hit either way. Unless I'm missing something here, now deflecting like genji in overwatch there would be a difference.
No, you still would get hit by every attack - it would just deal 50% damage when it gets deflected/parried. Think of it like passive RNG blocking to keep it in ESO terms.1 -
CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭CatchMeTrolling wrote: »CatchMeTrolling wrote: »Wait people would trust zos to have a skill that has a 30 percent chance at deflecting damage back? The way zos code things it'll proc all the time, I can just see how broke that could be already.
Let me remind you medium users aren't the only one's that can use shuffle nor is it only used by squishy player's, keep that in mind.Make a DK and flap.
@Asardes @CatchMeTrolling
It's DE-flect (like parry), not RE-flect like a Dk has.
Then what would be the point, essentially deflecting just to make the opponent miss is not too different than dodging, at the end of the day you're not getting hit either way. Unless I'm missing something here, now deflecting like genji in overwatch there would be a difference.
No, you still would get hit by every attack - it would just deal 50% damage when it gets deflected/parried. Think of it like passive RNG blocking to keep it in ESO terms.
Oh I understand now, thought you meant the opponent would get hit with that at first. I'd take that over dodging 100 percent of damage for sure.
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Smmokkee✭✭✭✭✭As a medium armor stamina-only user, I can get behind this. Passive dodge chance is one of many examples of a skill or set making up for actual gameplay skill. I fully support it being swapped for an ability that allows for actual mitigation, as well as making both morphs viable (seriously, does ANYONE use elude??)
I don't think you know what you're asking for bud.0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As a medium armor stamina-only user, I can get behind this. Passive dodge chance is one of many examples of a skill or set making up for actual gameplay skill. I fully support it being swapped for an ability that allows for actual mitigation, as well as making both morphs viable (seriously, does ANYONE use elude??)
I don't think you know what you're asking for bud.
I think he does, and I agree with him 100%1