bloodcraze vs rending slashes

Ep1kMalware · April 2017

Is rending that much more of a dps improvement? The difference looks nominal.

Izaki · April 2017

Yeah the DPS increase isn't huge, but its noticeable.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · April 2017

Pick the heal, the initial damage boost is so small to notice.

That magic guy sounds like a scrub, don't listen to scrubs.

Reorx_Holybeard · April 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

...
Find me an instance where Blood Craze's healing has been invaluable, where it has actually made a difference- and I'll point out what could have done it better.
...

For me it was useful in getting my stam sorc through vMA the first time before I had access to Vigor. I always use the Blood Craze morph on stamina characters as I'm not in any end-game guild/content and doing a little bit of healing is better than the really little bit more DPS.

It really is a small amount of DPS. Even in an unrealistically good stamina build it works out to around 140 DPS more (300 base damage x2 x 1.25 x1.6 / 9 sec = 133). So it boils down to whether the 500 HPS is more worthwhile than the 100 DPS, which, for me at least, is an easy choice.

Stam Sorc doesn't need Vigor to start with, but it also uses Rapid Strikes as it's primary ability. You'd lose less damage swapping from Rapid to Bloodthirst, and gain more healing.

Your math is assuming you only gain 300 damage, which I've stated is incorrect.

I've tested both morphs and don't see the same increase in damage. Can you explain how you're getting more than what I've seen? Perhaps you're including the vMA DW enchantment (I haven't found any sharpened vMA DW so I don't use them)?

Rending Slashes Tooltip = 2305 / 11360 dmg
Rending Slashes Actual = 2305 dmg x2 (ignoring mob resistance)
Blood Craze Tooltip = 2048 / 11360 dmg
Blood Craze Actual = 2048 dmg x2
Difference = 257 dmg x2
Including Average Crit (70% Chance, 70% Dmg) = 612 dmg
612 dmg every 9 seconds = 68 dps

I think this highlights the difference in choices between your typical player and the end-game one. Your average stamina build is going to get far more benefit from the Blood Craze morph than they would from the minuscule DPS increase (which would be far less than the theoretical 68 dps above). On the other hand, the end-game stamina build has little use for the extra healing from Blood Craze and assumably the extra DPS makes Rending Slashes better.

I'd be interested to know what sort of damage/dps increase Rending has your end-game build with vMA DW weapons. So it looks like the vMA DW enchantment doesn't affect the initial direct damage from Twin Slashes and only affects the DoT component so that wouldn't explain the damage discrepancy here.

quadraxis666 · April 2017

You don't know what nominal means do you...

Ep1kMalware · April 2017

quadraxis666 wrote: »

You don't know what nominal means do you...

Dude I asked a simple question, was it too hard for you to a answer? I'll dumb it down:

The tooltip value on the dot is the same, and tooltip value on the initial hit doesn't seem very large. Does the overall gain in dps outweigh the survivability bonus to bloodcraze? I've gotten alot of mixed answers but nothing more than personal opinion.

D0ntevenL1ft · April 2017

I was just thinking this 10 minutes ago when i went to morph the ability. Personally i think the extra survivability is better since the tooltip differences was quite minimal and i could use the extra heals since this was for my DK.

paulsimonps · April 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

quadraxis666 wrote: »

You don't know what nominal means do you...

Dude I asked a simple question, was it too hard for you to a answer? I'll dumb it down:

The tooltip value on the dot is the same, and tooltip value on the initial hit doesn't seem very large. Does the overall gain in dps outweigh the survivability bonus to bloodcraze? I've gotten alot of mixed answers but nothing more than personal opinion.

If you run Trials and Dungeons with your character go with the extra damage, if you run maelstrom or PvP with that character go with the heal.

Ep1kMalware · April 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

quadraxis666 wrote: »

You don't know what nominal means do you...

Dude I asked a simple question, was it too hard for you to a answer? I'll dumb it down:

The tooltip value on the dot is the same, and tooltip value on the initial hit doesn't seem very large. Does the overall gain in dps outweigh the survivability bonus to bloodcraze? I've gotten alot of mixed answers but nothing more than personal opinion.

If you run Trials and Dungeons with your character go with the extra damage, if you run maelstrom or PvP with that character go with the heal.

That's what I thought but the dmg loss looks like the same if I miss a light atk or two. I got into an argument about the morph after rezzint a crapload of magica dps in a trialm someguy tried to flame me even tho my dps score was 30 sec lower than his mag sorc. I tried saying thst the survivability is a bigger payoff esp during burn phases. A few guildmates said the difference in dps is very very small.

How much can it add to a 3m targ dummy? If it's less than 1k it's a potential dps loss not to slot it.

It's not that I don't trust someone who needs a moondancer proc and eledrain to kill targ dummy in under 2 mins for build advice, because I don't. I just want to understand the other side of the argument. What is the actual advantage, if there is one.

idk · April 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Is rending that much more of a dps improvement? The difference looks nominal.

If you are looking for max dps the max dps skill is best. Overall it is more dps though being able to deliver your rotation smoothly would add more dps than really anything.

Gilliamtherogue · April 2017

Blood Craze is really weak as a heal unless you have one of the following;
1. Insane amps to % healing, which is pretty much Templar exclusively. Major Mending and passives go a long way.
2. Master Daggers, the enchant increases the heal and can stack with 2 Daggers, making it extremely powerful.

If you need a heal, take Bloodthirst over Rapid Strikes. That will actually make a difference in combat.

Ep1kMalware · April 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Blood Craze is really weak as a heal unless you have one of the following;
1. Insane amps to % healing, which is pretty much Templar exclusively. Major Mending and passives go a long way.
2. Master Daggers, the enchant increases the heal and can stack with 2 Daggers, making it extremely powerful.

If you need a heal, take Bloodthirst over Rapid Strikes. That will actually make a difference in combat.

I'm on stam templar, I keep res focus up all the time and use vma dw. So I get the buff from the rune with major mending/empowered bloodcraze, stacking with bloodthirst, rend, and occasionally vigor. If doing hm trials I slot blade cloak as well, the damage mitigation is crazy good. I'll keep bloodcraze on my bar. even if it offers a loss of 1.5k dps in a perfect rotation its better than a death.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Blood Craze is really weak as a heal unless you have one of the following;
1. Insane amps to % healing, which is pretty much Templar exclusively. Major Mending and passives go a long way.
2. Master Daggers, the enchant increases the heal and can stack with 2 Daggers, making it extremely powerful.

If you need a heal, take Bloodthirst over Rapid Strikes. That will actually make a difference in combat.

On my stamsorc, blood craze tick for 1.2-2k every two seconds, this is more then some healers mutegen.

My tooltip value difference was literally 300 damage. Something like 2.3k to 2.6k. hardly noticeable. But staying alive, now that is noticable.

Gilliamtherogue · April 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Blood Craze is really weak as a heal unless you have one of the following;
1. Insane amps to % healing, which is pretty much Templar exclusively. Major Mending and passives go a long way.
2. Master Daggers, the enchant increases the heal and can stack with 2 Daggers, making it extremely powerful.

If you need a heal, take Bloodthirst over Rapid Strikes. That will actually make a difference in combat.

On my stamsorc, blood craze tick for 1.2-2k every two seconds, this is more then some healers mutegen.

My tooltip value difference was literally 300 damage. Something like 2.3k to 2.6k. hardly noticeable. But staying alive, now that is noticable.

After you take the morph it goes up by ~1000 damage. Furthermore, the initial hit is a x2 multiplier, as it hits twice. Furthermore, the damage increase is affected by crits. It's a pretty big DPS loss in min/max terms compared to ~1500 health every 2 seconds. What situation is that actually going to make a difference?

Also, if your healers Mutagen are hitting that low, something is wrong.

notimetocare · April 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Is rending that much more of a dps improvement? The difference looks nominal.

Bro, I thought you were leet king of pve. Why so dumb of a question?

KingYogi415 · April 2017

Just run the heal till you don't need it any more.

For vma you should know what to pick!

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · April 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Blood Craze is really weak as a heal unless you have one of the following;
1. Insane amps to % healing, which is pretty much Templar exclusively. Major Mending and passives go a long way.
2. Master Daggers, the enchant increases the heal and can stack with 2 Daggers, making it extremely powerful.

If you need a heal, take Bloodthirst over Rapid Strikes. That will actually make a difference in combat.

On my stamsorc, blood craze tick for 1.2-2k every two seconds, this is more then some healers mutegen.

My tooltip value difference was literally 300 damage. Something like 2.3k to 2.6k. hardly noticeable. But staying alive, now that is noticable.

After you take the morph it goes up by ~1000 damage. Furthermore, the initial hit is a x2 multiplier, as it hits twice. Furthermore, the damage increase is affected by crits. It's a pretty big DPS loss in min/max terms compared to ~1500 health every 2 seconds. What situation is that actually going to make a difference?

Also, if your healers Mutagen are hitting that low, something is wrong.

Oh completely agree with the bold. Gilliam, I have watched a ton of your stuff, you are a grade *A* player and you seem to only play with grade *A* people. Blood craze is the morph most people ought to take cause most people have to have some sort of healing on stam builds. Pugs simply do not always have the best of everything. So yeah, I have played with tanks that have 22k health and healers that hit less then 1k ticks with both mutagen and rapid regen. I always try to bring my *A* game but sometimes the people around me have no idea what's going on. So in my case, as I pug almost exclusively, the heal is invaluable.

Ep1kMalware · April 2017

notimetocare wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Is rending that much more of a dps improvement? The difference looks nominal.

Bro, I thought you were leet king of pve. Why so dumb of a question?

Because I'd rather not be ignorant. There's too much of that already -.-

Illurian · April 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Blood Craze is really weak as a heal unless you have one of the following;
1. Insane amps to % healing, which is pretty much Templar exclusively. Major Mending and passives go a long way.
2. Master Daggers, the enchant increases the heal and can stack with 2 Daggers, making it extremely powerful.

If you need a heal, take Bloodthirst over Rapid Strikes. That will actually make a difference in combat.

On my stamsorc, blood craze tick for 1.2-2k every two seconds, this is more then some healers mutegen.

My tooltip value difference was literally 300 damage. Something like 2.3k to 2.6k. hardly noticeable. But staying alive, now that is noticable.

Why do you need the heal on a stamsorc though? Even if your healer has underwhelming heals, doesn't critical surge heal for more than enough?

No shade at all! Just curious as I have a stamsorc myself!

Twohothardware · April 2017

You guys seem to be ignoring the fact that Rending Slashes also applies a snare. I suppose in PvE that may not offer much benefit but if you include PvP it does.

Izaki · April 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Blood Craze is really weak as a heal unless you have one of the following;
1. Insane amps to % healing, which is pretty much Templar exclusively. Major Mending and passives go a long way.
2. Master Daggers, the enchant increases the heal and can stack with 2 Daggers, making it extremely powerful.

If you need a heal, take Bloodthirst over Rapid Strikes. That will actually make a difference in combat.

I'm on stam templar, I keep res focus up all the time and use vma dw. So I get the buff from the rune with major mending/empowered bloodcraze, stacking with bloodthirst, rend, and occasionally vigor. If doing hm trials I slot blade cloak as well, the damage mitigation is crazy good. I'll keep bloodcraze on my bar. even if it offers a loss of 1.5k dps in a perfect rotation its better than a death.

Meh... Quite frankly you don't need all that stuff... I mean if you're attacking the boss, means you're in melee range, AKA where all the healing springs are, so you really don't need Bloodcraze or Bloodthirst. The only time you might need self healing is where you have to separate yourself from the group a little to do mechanics, and at that point, Bloodcraze or Bloodthirst won't be giving you any heals at all and Vigor just does a better job. Deadly Cloak is pretty much a must have on your bar at all times.

Gilliamtherogue · April 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Oh completely agree with the bold. Gilliam, I have watched a ton of your stuff, you are a grade *A* player and you seem to only play with grade *A* people. Blood craze is the morph most people ought to take cause most people have to have some sort of healing on stam builds. Pugs simply do not always have the best of everything. So yeah, I have played with tanks that have 22k health and healers that hit less then 1k ticks with both mutagen and rapid regen. I always try to bring my *A* game but sometimes the people around me have no idea what's going on. So in my case, as I pug almost exclusively, the heal is invaluable.

I play with players of all types, ranging from people who have never heard of CC break or weaving all the way to the people leading top tier scores. I understand the game to its boundaries and I push them. I look to make the most out of every little thing, because it's what I enjoy doing.

That being said, Blood Craze really just doesn't offer a player anything efficient. Don't get me wrong, healing is vital to any build, and it's important to have. However, when you look for healing you need something that will be reactive and powerful enough to tide you over to make the cast of it worth while. Are you going to run a Restoration Staff and place Rapid Regen on you as a Stamina build to gain 1800 health every 1.5s? No, because it's a huge loss and doesn't make sense. Blood Craze follows the same idea, it just doesn't make sense. You're better off finding other healing options (Vigor, Rally, Bloodthirst, etc) that have minor losses associated with them, that will *actually* make a difference when you need them.

Find me an instance where Blood Craze's healing has been invaluable, where it has actually made a difference- and I'll point out what could have done it better.

Still, I'm not here to tell people how to play, rather, give options to play better. No one has to listen to a suggestion, but it doesn't invalidate it. Min/maxing isn't something that you NEED to do in this game, but why not educate people of better ways to approach them?

Reorx_Holybeard · April 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

...
Find me an instance where Blood Craze's healing has been invaluable, where it has actually made a difference- and I'll point out what could have done it better.
...

For me it was useful in getting my stam sorc through vMA the first time before I had access to Vigor. I always use the Blood Craze morph on stamina characters as I'm not in any end-game guild/content and doing a little bit of healing is better than the really little bit more DPS.

It really is a small amount of DPS. Even in an unrealistically good stamina build it works out to around 140 DPS more (300 base damage x2 x 1.25 x1.6 / 9 sec = 133). So it boils down to whether the 500 HPS is more worthwhile than the 100 DPS, which, for me at least, is an easy choice.

Gilliamtherogue · April 2017

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

...
Find me an instance where Blood Craze's healing has been invaluable, where it has actually made a difference- and I'll point out what could have done it better.
...

For me it was useful in getting my stam sorc through vMA the first time before I had access to Vigor. I always use the Blood Craze morph on stamina characters as I'm not in any end-game guild/content and doing a little bit of healing is better than the really little bit more DPS.

It really is a small amount of DPS. Even in an unrealistically good stamina build it works out to around 140 DPS more (300 base damage x2 x 1.25 x1.6 / 9 sec = 133). So it boils down to whether the 500 HPS is more worthwhile than the 100 DPS, which, for me at least, is an easy choice.

Stam Sorc doesn't need Vigor to start with, but it also uses Rapid Strikes as it's primary ability. You'd lose less damage swapping from Rapid to Bloodthirst, and gain more healing.

Your math is assuming you only gain 300 damage, which I've stated is incorrect.

Solariken · April 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Blood Craze is really weak as a heal unless you have one of the following;
1. Insane amps to % healing, which is pretty much Templar exclusively. Major Mending and passives go a long way.
2. Master Daggers, the enchant increases the heal and can stack with 2 Daggers, making it extremely powerful.

If you need a heal, take Bloodthirst over Rapid Strikes. That will actually make a difference in combat.

I'm on stam templar, I keep res focus up all the time and use vma dw. So I get the buff from the rune with major mending/empowered bloodcraze, stacking with bloodthirst, rend, and occasionally vigor. If doing hm trials I slot blade cloak as well, the damage mitigation is crazy good. I'll keep bloodcraze on my bar. even if it offers a loss of 1.5k dps in a perfect rotation its better than a death.

I loosely agree with @Gilliamtherogue on this in general, but with a huge caveat - if this decision involves PvP and you plan to follow up with jabs, you absolutely want Rending for the hefty snare. Otherwise don't expect your jabs to hit anything but air. You can get plenty of healing in other ways.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2017

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

...
Find me an instance where Blood Craze's healing has been invaluable, where it has actually made a difference- and I'll point out what could have done it better.
...

For me it was useful in getting my stam sorc through vMA the first time before I had access to Vigor. I always use the Blood Craze morph on stamina characters as I'm not in any end-game guild/content and doing a little bit of healing is better than the really little bit more DPS.

It really is a small amount of DPS. Even in an unrealistically good stamina build it works out to around 140 DPS more (300 base damage x2 x 1.25 x1.6 / 9 sec = 133). So it boils down to whether the 500 HPS is more worthwhile than the 100 DPS, which, for me at least, is an easy choice.

Stam Sorc doesn't need Vigor to start with, but it also uses Rapid Strikes as it's primary ability. You'd lose less damage swapping from Rapid to Bloodthirst, and gain more healing.

Your math is assuming you only gain 300 damage, which I've stated is incorrect.

@Gilliamtherogue

I agree that the heal on Bloodthirst is far better but are you sure that you gain more DPS from changing Blood Craze to Rendering Slashes than from Bloodthirst to Rapid Strikes? Rendering increases only the initial dmg, means more dmg once every 9 seconds, while Rapid Strikes are spammed more often.

My opinion to the topic: since I usually run solo or duo I prefer the survivability on both skills, but I'm no min-maxer at any means. Thirst, Craze, Surge is enough to not slot vigor and still being able to stand in stupid from time to time.

Gilliamtherogue · April 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

...
Find me an instance where Blood Craze's healing has been invaluable, where it has actually made a difference- and I'll point out what could have done it better.
...

For me it was useful in getting my stam sorc through vMA the first time before I had access to Vigor. I always use the Blood Craze morph on stamina characters as I'm not in any end-game guild/content and doing a little bit of healing is better than the really little bit more DPS.

It really is a small amount of DPS. Even in an unrealistically good stamina build it works out to around 140 DPS more (300 base damage x2 x 1.25 x1.6 / 9 sec = 133). So it boils down to whether the 500 HPS is more worthwhile than the 100 DPS, which, for me at least, is an easy choice.

Stam Sorc doesn't need Vigor to start with, but it also uses Rapid Strikes as it's primary ability. You'd lose less damage swapping from Rapid to Bloodthirst, and gain more healing.

Your math is assuming you only gain 300 damage, which I've stated is incorrect.

@Gilliamtherogue

I agree that the heal on Bloodthirst is far better but are you sure that you gain more DPS from changing Blood Craze to Rendering Slashes than from Bloodthirst to Rapid Strikes? Rendering increases only the initial dmg, means more dmg once every 9 seconds, while Rapid Strikes are spammed more often.

My opinion to the topic: since I usually run solo or duo I prefer the survivability on both skills, but I'm no min-maxer at any means. Thirst, Craze, Surge is enough to not slot vigor and still being able to stand in stupid from time to time.

In the context of VMA, yes. Burst damage is extremely important in vMA, and gaining a larger hit with a x2 multiplier vs losing 3% on minor hits has Rending at an advantage. Still, a Stamina Sorcerer needs neither of them in vMA. I'm speaking purely from a min/max point, like I mentioned earlier in the thread. I understand people will play what they will, and that the "best" is only so if one can apply it.

Thirst from Rapid Strikes would be a slight damage loss over Craze to Rending in sustained DPS situations, but the amount of on demand healing that Thirst would give over Craze is over double, and comes in much quicker application (every 1s vs every 2s, and it heals for ~60% of the final hit, which is 10k+).

Look at it this way; why give up 1000+ initial hit damage for 800 HPS, when you can give up ~1200 damage but gain 4000 HPS?

notimetocare · April 2017

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Is rending that much more of a dps improvement? The difference looks nominal.

Bro, I thought you were leet king of pve. Why so dumb of a question?

Because I'd rather not be ignorant. There's too much of that already -.-

Seem to know everything elsewhere. lol

The Elder Scrolls Online

bloodcraze vs rending slashes

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