Sharpened Vs Nirnhoned
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xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
Full penetration without a Sharpened weapon on a magicka build? Go on explain to me how you're going to achieve 100% uptime on that. 100 (base), 4884 (concentration), 5280 (major breach), 1320 (minor breach), 1622 (crusher), 3010 (alkosh) and the few buffs that reduce penetration by a percentage (that no one uses). Yeah you're pretty far from 30k penetration here. So it is pretty unrealistic to have full penetration with a 100% uptime without a sharpened weapon.
Full penetration on a stamina build without sharpened? Yeah its possible. But are you really going to have 4 stamina builds in your group? I doubt that. Melee spots are precious and Magicka Templars and Magicka DKs all have more to offer to the group than a stamina build. So that leaves you maximum 2 possible stamina spots. You really going to run NMG and Sunderflame? I doubt it, considering you achieve the same result with more individual DPS with Two-Fanged Snake. Considering the current
I can get my *** right mate and I don't know how I was being self-righteous or "high and mighty"
Well with spinner and 100p into penetration cp its possible to get ~29k on magicka and ~32-33k for stamina.
But yeah its *** giving up a 5pc set when you just could run a different trait lol.
Also crusher infised is 1930
Member of HODOR
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Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xblackroxe wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »xblackroxe wrote: »IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »for PvP - Sharpened
for PvE - Nirnhoned
Nirnhoned is NEVER BiS for anything aside from Onslaught ganking. I don't know how you're making that claim (fix that in an edit please, so that people don't actually think that it is true and spend tons of gold mats on a nirnhoned weapon).
Like I said earlier:
Sharpened = 12% more damage done
Precise = 3.4% more damage done
Nirnhoned = 2.7% damage done
So even if full penetration is achieved in PvE (not realistic at all), Precise would still be better than Nirnhoned. In fact, When the target has 1.3k armor left Sharpened = Precise in terms of DPS. So yeah, Sharpened is best pretty much all the time.
You Sir need to calm the farm and stop being so self righteous. While you are correct that Sharpened is better most of the time it isn't better all the time. When running 12man raids with the right setups your group will be applying enough debuffs to reduce physical resistance below 18.2k, making nirnhoned weapons a better option since the warhorn nerf.
Full penetration not realistic? Again in 12 man groups total penetration/debuff possible is over 30K - don't come on here acting all high and mighty if you can't even get your own *** right.
I guess you should also calm down a bit. Hes right with one thing Nirn isn't BiS. Crit is too important and too strong to make nirn viable.
So if you reach >18k without sharpened then yes precise is better.
And for mag chars this doesn't work even with 100% uptime on alkosh crusher and potl sharpend ~ precise. With anything lower than that sharpend wins and you can't have 100% uptime on all of those 80% is strong 70% is realistic.
For stam its nice though since you can split it up and run 1 sharp 1 precise but only if nmg and sunderflame are used.
Again, the above assessments are done based on people using BiS with near perfect rotations and don't take into account different setups. You can't talk in absolutes when discussing less than a 1% difference (precise vs nirn, which is what it is on a khajit stamblade at 80% crit). If we assume a Stamina character is using kragh's and VO then yeah precise is going to win, but if the guy/gal has decided to run with Vel and Viper then they're going to be better off with nirn weapons as a big chunk of their DPS will never crit.
All I'm against is people coming on here saying "you should never ever run anything else besides sharpened and any point of view otherwise is dangerous and your views don't belong here". That, I completely disagree with as there are definitely still options for people to pump out high level end game DPS without sharpened. I think @Masel92 has gone a long way the last few months in highlighting builds that show sharpened isn't the be all and end all and that yeah, if you want to give an alternative a go you can.
(ps. spinner's gets you to 18.2k with ease without sharpened on magicka, again lets stop talking in absolutes and encourage people to give alternative builds a try instead of just crushing opinions.)
Well I'm not gonna take suboptimal setups into account when you talk about endgame pve.
Ofc if you run only proc sets precise isn't as good and maybe nirn is better on that but not sure, but that's beyond the point cause I'll refuse to be in the same raid as a stamina player.
Well sure you could run spinner and go some other trait but who would really give up 1160 penetration and a 5 piece set just to use some other trait on the weapon.
To be in Hodor you must run build sharpened > precise > nirn. and use only the skills we tell you to
There I fixed it for you.
To the other's reading this thread that don't yet have a flawless rotation execution and/or the prescribed gear and skills feel free to give alternative traits a go as yes you may increase your damage under some circumstances with different traits based on your gear and teammates. But, for solo play and most 4 man content you'll be better off with sharpened - unless as already stated your build is centred around ranking with the 2H ulti.....
That is actually not true. The difference between the different traits doesn't get smaller the worse your rotation is. Its the other way round. You know how they say you get carried by gear? Well this is a perfect example. If you can't keep your rotation up, then you'll see a much larger DPS increase from Sharpened than from say Precise...
Also I'm pretty sure Hodor have a stam DK in their main team that is running a heavy attack build, so that part about Hodor refusing to have any stam in raids is kinda false.
Nah thats Dragons Crest. We really do have a full mag team besides tanks but not because ppl are forced to play magicka. Its just that everybody either always mained magicka or is familiar enough with pretty much every class to just play whats best/ needed.
And yeah your first paragraph is right. The worse you are/ your team is the better sharpened is. It was the same before they changed sharpened. Sharp was the trait to carry bad players/groups while precise was BiS for the good groups. Just with the difference that sharpened is still BiS for top goups now. Haha
Really? I thought I saw Asmael running on a Stam DK in a recent video with a similar build to Orphan!
Maybe that video wasn't as recent as I had thought lol
Yeah, and the difference is so huge that we all end up farming normal trials to get the weapons... in Sharpened. lol@ Izaki #PCEU
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bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭it all depends on your target and what you are trying to accomplish. Sharpened does not effect shields so is horrible against mag sorcs and many mag classes since they will typically utilize a shield. Nirn will be effective against all users. Nirn also effects heals along with damage since they both scale the same way. Sharpened is purley for damage. Further, if you already have high armor penetration from other sources, then additional armor pen wont be as good if at all against low armor stat opponents. (increasingly rare in pvp).
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t3hdubzy✭✭✭✭How are people saying that nirn has a base value increase that is flat when it scales off of your weapon damage as a percent?
If your base dmg is 2k and you get 11 percent then you are at 2220
If your base dmg is at 4k then you are at 4440?
Personally I run sharpened when i can craft it or find it, and I run precise if not. Ive run nirnhoned for a few specialty builds but thats it.
Personally in pvp im running high dmg, high penetration because shield stackers and tanks are my biggest obstacles.
If you were going for a gank build and targetting anything but tanks, nirnhoned can be used depending on the build.
My advice is build for your weakness and find the right amount of penetration, crit and wpn dmg for that occassion.0 -
Ahzek✭✭✭✭✭
✭How are people saying that nirn has a base value increase that is flat when it scales off of your weapon damage as a percent?
If your base dmg is 2k and you get 11 percent then you are at 2220
If your base dmg is at 4k then you are at 4440?
Personally I run sharpened when i can craft it or find it, and I run precise if not. Ive run nirnhoned for a few specialty builds but thats it.
Personally in pvp im running high dmg, high penetration because shield stackers and tanks are my biggest obstacles.
If you were going for a gank build and targetting anything but tanks, nirnhoned can be used depending on the build.
My advice is build for your weakness and find the right amount of penetration, crit and wpn dmg for that occassion.
Nirn does not increase your overall weapon damage, it increases the weapon damage onky for the weapon with the trait. So it has no effect on the weapon damage you get from other sources, like enchants or set boni.
If it acted as a more generic %wep dmg buff, it might actually be a viable option, but thats just not how it is.Jo'Khaljor2 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
Edited by bg22 on March 28, 2017 4:32PM0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
As long as the is resistance left to penetrate pen > everything else.
Member of HODOR
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kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.Edited by kadar on March 28, 2017 10:11PM2 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.
Exactly... at what point does the math favor Weapon damage?
If I had 1 Weapon damage and 100% Pen, is that better than 6,000 Weapon damage and 1% Pen?
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Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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It is better but only in certain circumstances.sharpened is better
In PvP - sure, it is better
In Trails & Vet dungeons - yes.. it seems better.
In normal PvE mobs slaughter - it is simply an unnecessary overkill (like 90% of the game for most people).
How many mobs out there have any "relevant" armour ? Keep in mind that Nirnhoned also increases your dmg & healing from skills.
If you have high crit chance already, and don't plan to do PvP or vet dungaons & trials - nirnhoned seems a good choice
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on March 28, 2017 11:28PM0 -
reesenorman✭✭✭AidsMundus Core
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bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭So... having 3.5k Weapon damage (which seems to be a general stat) and 12k~ Pen is better than having 6.3k weapon damage and 7k pen?Edited by bg22 on March 29, 2017 12:02AM0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So... having 3.5k Weapon damage (which seems to be a general stat) and 12k~ Pen is better than having 6.3k weapon damage and 7k pen?
Honestly, it depends on a series of factors. But for the most part, having 3.5k WD and 12k penetration would be better for the most part. Why? Because the more resistances something has, the more your damage as a whole is being mitigated. Something that you don't want. You want to fully penetrate your target, so that you can do your damage straight-up.0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭So... having 3.5k Weapon damage (which seems to be a general stat) and 12k~ Pen is better than having 6.3k weapon damage and 7k pen?
Honestly, it depends on a series of factors. But for the most part, having 3.5k WD and 12k penetration would be better for the most part. Why? Because the more resistances something has, the more your damage as a whole is being mitigated. Something that you don't want. You want to fully penetrate your target, so that you can do your damage straight-up.
Again, I understand that... but I'll follow my train of thought with simple math and you correct me if I'm wrong.
1 has 3.2k Dmg and 100% penetration.
2 has 6.2k Dmg and 60% penetration.
With basic hits:
1 hits for 3.2k per hit since 100% of his damage counts.
2 hits for 3,720 per hit bc 60% of his damage counts.
Or is that not how it works???0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭I also don't think that armor equals pure mitigation... I find it hard to believe that if something 3000 armor, and I had 2000 Weapon damage, that I would do absolutely no damage. Or am I just wayyyy off in understanding this whole thing?0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭So... having 3.5k Weapon damage (which seems to be a general stat) and 12k~ Pen is better than having 6.3k weapon damage and 7k pen?
Honestly, it depends on a series of factors. But for the most part, having 3.5k WD and 12k penetration would be better for the most part. Why? Because the more resistances something has, the more your damage as a whole is being mitigated. Something that you don't want. You want to fully penetrate your target, so that you can do your damage straight-up.
Again, I understand that... but I'll follow my train of thought with simple math and you correct me if I'm wrong.
1 has 3.2k Dmg and 100% penetration.
2 has 6.2k Dmg and 60% penetration.
With basic hits:
1 hits for 3.2k per hit since 100% of his damage counts.
2 hits for 3,720 per hit bc 60% of his damage counts.
Or is that not how it works???
After pen comes crit/crit dmg so if you're sacrificing that for wd too the other guy won't be hittong 3200, he'll be hitting 6400+.0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭So... having 3.5k Weapon damage (which seems to be a general stat) and 12k~ Pen is better than having 6.3k weapon damage and 7k pen?
Honestly, it depends on a series of factors. But for the most part, having 3.5k WD and 12k penetration would be better for the most part. Why? Because the more resistances something has, the more your damage as a whole is being mitigated. Something that you don't want. You want to fully penetrate your target, so that you can do your damage straight-up.
Again, I understand that... but I'll follow my train of thought with simple math and you correct me if I'm wrong.
1 has 3.2k Dmg and 100% penetration.
2 has 6.2k Dmg and 60% penetration.
With basic hits:
1 hits for 3.2k per hit since 100% of his damage counts.
2 hits for 3,720 per hit bc 60% of his damage counts.
Or is that not how it works???
Thats not how it works. Having e.g. 5k weapondamage doesn't mean that your skills tooltip is 5k. Your tooltip comes from both weapondamage and max stamina both with a multiplier.
It looks something like this:
Tooltip = a*max weapondamage + b*max stamina (same for magicka) with a/b ~ 10.5 means every point into wd gives about the same as 10.5 points into stam.
So you can't as easy just compare that. But for simplicity's sake in pve its enough for magicka to have a sharpened weapon, for stam its better to have sharp weapons and nmg/spriggan/tfs. That equates to ~15k pen for each. Its not worth it to go further into pen for pve the rest comes from support debuffs like alkosh, crusher enchant, potl.
For pvp it depends what you wanna do but 95% of the time you will be better of having sharpened.
Since even to kill sorcs you have to damage their health same reason many sorcs still use some impen pieces. You gotta be effective enough with bursting them down while they dont have shields up.
Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer1 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So... having 3.5k Weapon damage (which seems to be a general stat) and 12k~ Pen is better than having 6.3k weapon damage and 7k pen?
Honestly, it depends on a series of factors. But for the most part, having 3.5k WD and 12k penetration would be better for the most part. Why? Because the more resistances something has, the more your damage as a whole is being mitigated. Something that you don't want. You want to fully penetrate your target, so that you can do your damage straight-up.
Again, I understand that... but I'll follow my train of thought with simple math and you correct me if I'm wrong.
1 has 3.2k Dmg and 100% penetration.
2 has 6.2k Dmg and 60% penetration.
With basic hits:
1 hits for 3.2k per hit since 100% of his damage counts.
2 hits for 3,720 per hit bc 60% of his damage counts.
Or is that not how it works???
This example is somewhat irrelevant to the sharpened vs. nirnhoned discussion. Sharpened weapons give you more than 25% penetration (on a target dummy with 18200 resistance) and the bonus weapon damage from nirnhoned is laughable. You do not achieve 6k WD by swapping sharpened for nirnhoned. Sharpened weapon is worse only if the targets resistance has been reduced to zero. And this is not a likely situation in PvE obr PvP.0 -
GrigorijMalahevich✭✭✭✭✭@bg22
Don't use nirnhoned in PvP mate just go with sharpened. Nirnhoned helps with vigor due to it increasing the base value since vigor scales off of damage + stamina but it's benefits overall falls completely flat. (This is coming from someone who's a legate on 1 character and if I combine all I would be a warlord).
Your stats are incredibly fantastic for PvP especially having high recovery with over 50% crit and 4k + weapon damage that's insane. You should do fine if your rotation engagements are set (player by player based rotations is what I mean).
DPS does matter in PvP by that way to all the people fighting it. Damage per second is something you need to factor in when selecting your skills to build your rotation for player engagement. If you say DPS doesn't matter then I question your playtime in PvP.
Ok then - how much DPS do I need in PvP to be good? I would question your pvp time...
@bg22 - one of the most knowledgeable person in the forum explained to you in detail what is what, really mate, get a grip.
Burst and sustain is king in PvP. DPS, crit and weapon damage is not.PC/EU 800 CP.
PvP MagSorc.Pedro Gonzales - Mag Sorc EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/CB6j6
Valera Progib - Stam Sorc DC vMA Flawless Conqueror clear https://i.imgur.com/eYgpXG2.png
Valera Pozhar - Mag DK EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/jrsuK
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llllADBllll✭✭✭People who come in here to regurgitate other people's hard work and research grind my gears.
Sharpened. 70% of the time it work's everytime.CRAFTMASTER - DAGGERFALL EU XBOX ONE
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kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, I never got around to making nirnhoned weapons and trying it out....but I was thinking about it. Many have been arguing from a math standpoint....and that's cool and logical per say; But how fast are you killing things with nirnhoned weapons?
You know what I mean. Not the DPS dummy thing, because most fights I encounter aren't that easy to have mobs and bosses just stand there and take a beating. Without a perfect rotation with weaving and Canceling and wat not, how is nirnhoned comparing to sharp. Does it feel like your doing more damage or the same or maybe less.
I want to know what it feels like to you playing the game with it. Not just the DPS dummy, but like dungeon mobs and bosses.
Oh and congrats on getting your weapon damage so high.
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bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭Valera Progib wrote: »@bg22
Don't use nirnhoned in PvP mate just go with sharpened. Nirnhoned helps with vigor due to it increasing the base value since vigor scales off of damage + stamina but it's benefits overall falls completely flat. (This is coming from someone who's a legate on 1 character and if I combine all I would be a warlord).
Your stats are incredibly fantastic for PvP especially having high recovery with over 50% crit and 4k + weapon damage that's insane. You should do fine if your rotation engagements are set (player by player based rotations is what I mean).
DPS does matter in PvP by that way to all the people fighting it. Damage per second is something you need to factor in when selecting your skills to build your rotation for player engagement. If you say DPS doesn't matter then I question your playtime in PvP.
Ok then - how much DPS do I need in PvP to be good? I would question your pvp time...
@bg22 - one of the most knowledgeable person in the forum explained to you in detail what is what, really mate, get a grip.
Burst and sustain is king in PvP. DPS, crit and weapon damage is not.
wait what??? DPS, weapon and crit damage is how you get your burst?? It is about DPS in that you need to get your burst to a good damage threshold within a few seconds or second. So the amount of damage you put out in those seconds are crucial. So in that sense DPS does matter. Additionally, you say it is about sustain, but then throw DPS to the side. Sustaining in a fight is also about sustaining good DPS to out DPS the heals they are getting back and put pressure to setup your burst. If you have low DPS then you cant set up your burst as effetivley. Crit and weapon damage are directly tied into both your burst and DPS, so seemingly throwing them to the side is also a mistake.
Hey, but maybe I am understanding you wrong. idk.0 -
xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭kylewwefan wrote: »Well, I never got around to making nirnhoned weapons and trying it out....but I was thinking about it. Many have been arguing from a math standpoint....and that's cool and logical per say; But how fast are you killing things with nirnhoned weapons?
You know what I mean. Not the DPS dummy thing, because most fights I encounter aren't that easy to have mobs and bosses just stand there and take a beating. Without a perfect rotation with weaving and Canceling and wat not, how is nirnhoned comparing to sharp. Does it feel like your doing more damage or the same or maybe less.
I want to know what it feels like to you playing the game with it. Not just the DPS dummy, but like dungeon mobs and bosses.
Oh and congrats on getting your weapon damage so high.
It doesn't matter if your rotation is good or not. Nirn gives you a %- on each of your tooltips while sharpened decreases the targets resistance which in turn gives you a % increase in damage done. And overall sharpened wins all the time except when mobs have less than 1k resist left.
Actually the better your group is with buffs and debuffs the worse sharpened gets but with the current BiS setups sharpened still wins.
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Dro-m'Athra Destroyer0 -
Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
UESP has my favorite theory quick reference.
http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php
Sliding the stat bars around shows how much extra damage skills can dish out. It takes a lot of extra weapon damage to get 12.5% increase in damage for a skill. It all depends on where you start, say you've got 34,000 stamina and 3,000 weapon damage you might need another 780 WD to add another 12.5% to your damage, assuming the other stats stay the same. If you start with 5,000 WD and 34,000 stamina, you'd need another 1030 WD to get an extra 12.5%. Nirn gives a miniscule amount of weapon damage by comparison. Sharpened blows Nirnhorned completely out of relevance, into teeny pieces.2 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't get it. In PvE these things are so said to be so crucial but they dont show any of that stuff on your character sheet. There's nothing for penetration or CHD anywhere. We only just got the DPS dummy with housing.
No where in the game will you hear about anything relating to hard caps or soft caps or whatever. You have to dig through patch notes. Even then they don't really clearly indicate in any kind of manner why you should use one thing over another.
Nirnhoned is still incredibly rare to find, which would lead most people to think it provides the best benefit, when it apparently doesn't anymore or ever has since the game came to console. Heck, most people have had to spend the better part of a year to get to the point where they could make this only to find out it's not so great?
You know how many people on console are gonna do that....asides from a few forum users none.
Well, thanks a lot math2 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kylewwefan wrote: »I don't get it. In PvE these things are so said to be so crucial but they dont show any of that stuff on your character sheet. There's nothing for penetration or CHD anywhere. We only just got the DPS dummy with housing.
No where in the game will you hear about anything relating to hard caps or soft caps or whatever. You have to dig through patch notes. Even then they don't really clearly indicate in any kind of manner why you should use one thing over another.
Nirnhoned is still incredibly rare to find, which would lead most people to think it provides the best benefit, when it apparently doesn't anymore or ever has since the game came to console. Heck, most people have had to spend the better part of a year to get to the point where they could make this only to find out it's not so great?
You know how many people on console are gonna do that....asides from a few forum users none.
Well, thanks a lot math
@kylewwefan Want to know something that sucks even more? Theoretically speaking, even Precise is better than Nirnhoned (regarding weapon traits). Lol. Weapon traits from best to worse are: Sharpened, Precise, and then Nirnhoned. Although it has been theorized that precise can outshine sharpened in super rare occasions, that usually nine times out of tenndont arise. But still. Nirnhoned has fallen from grace that much.0 -
Sureshawt✭✭✭✭Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »70% crit is low? When did that happen?!
It didn't. This is the forums where all posts must be viewed with a high degree of skepticism.0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »At what point tho does/can Weapon damage outweigh 5k extra pen? In groups where I don't have to slot vigor, I can self buff to 6.3k. Even then, is that number not better than having say 3.5k with 5k extra pen?
This is of course a silly way to interpret things when it's really just a math thing, but one could think of it like this:
Say you've got the choice to either hit someone's armor with a real heavy Sword, or choose a slightly lighter Sword that will slide right past your target's armor. You would obviously choose to ignore the armor completely for maximum damage.
^That's a little bit like Nirn vs. Sharp.
It's similar with Weapon damage vs. Crit: You could choose to hit your target with a real heavy Sword, or you choose to hit them in a vital organ with a slightly lighter sword for x2 damage. You would obviously choose to take the crit for x2 damage.
Many of our choices in this game are personal preference, but for maximum DPS our choices are really just up to the math.
Exactly... at what point does the math favor Weapon damage?
If I had 1 Weapon damage and 100% Pen, is that better than 6,000 Weapon damage and 1% Pen?
I'm sure there is a point where the math favors weapon damage, I simply don't know where that is. If this thread was simply about traits, then we have our answer. 5k penetration in and of itself is a better DPS boost than 11% bonus to your weapon's damage (read: not Wpn Dmg). If you're really curious about more maths surrounding Sharp/Precise/Nirn, I highly recommend: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262295/nirnhoned-precise-and-sharpened or any thread by Asayre, really.
What I do know is that we have finite amount of ways to get stats, meaning that we have to choose to stack certain stats, and abandon or gimp others. To achieve values like 6k Wpn Dmg, you have to sacrifice Max Stam, Crit, and Pen, all of which are Dmg buffs. Most people find that sacrificing a small amount of Wpn Dmg (say 1 or 2k), and trading it for a large amount of Penetration or Crit will net you far greater damage than if you just stack 1 stat.
Going off your example above, what if we traded 1k Wpn Dmg for 50% Pen? 5k Wpn Dmg and 50% Pen vs. 6k Wpn Dmg and 1% Pen. This is of course a silly example, but it illustrates the overall idea.
Nirn is gonna net you ~150 (11% of 1335) WpnDmg and Sharp nets anywhere from 20-50% Pen.
edit: @bg22Edited by kadar on March 29, 2017 6:03PM2
