central_scrutinizer wrote: »

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

Welcome to reality. No Safety pins or Safe Spaces. Put those that bother you on your Ignore list. Not a big deal to me.

But this isn't reality at all, the internet is one big safe space.

Most of the people who hurl insults online absolutely would not do so in person. Or would not do so more then once.

Like my example from Deshaan zone chat above.

I doubt people would walk down a street in real life proudly proclaiming to all how they sexually abused someone, why? Because that's a crime and you will have the police come knocking when someone reports it.

There isn't too much to be said though, this debate will be endless because we all have different world views depending on our own experiences in life.
Generally I like many avoid anything which can cause undue offence to people because I was raised that way, treat everyone well and if someone is rude or offensive then you ignore them.

However there is never a time or a place to racism, sexism, bigotry etc. you're welcome to tell someone to go <word> themselves but you have no right to ever think yourself better than another based on race, religion, sexual identity etc.

This is my last post in this thread though as I have had this debate on here too many times.

Most people are a*oles so try turning the sound off and disabling text chat. That is how I usually play.

Just report them. You don't have to ignore them, I don't. I just keep reporting them when I see them making countless violations. The most I will do is ignore/block them and wait an hour, remove them.

I'd be writing a book if I quoted/responded directly to the posts in this thread that I wished to, so...

Points:
- There are people that make legitimately divisive statements, whether they mean it earnestly or for the sake of getting a rise. These people do these things in Zone chat, group chat, private messages, anywhere you can make a message free-form or not.
- There are people that take mundane conversation as largely divisive, whether they mean it earnestly or for the sake of getting a rise. This is harder to do in private and has better results with a larger audience, more people available to "take the bait" and derail with.
- There are people on both sides, and outside of either group, who will toss around the words "bully" "troll" etc. whether to get a rise or in earnest.

Opinions from here forwards, fingers on the block button in case something goes against your opinion
- Coming from a background where I was followed both within and outside of school, pushed into lockers/the ground, struck with fists, called names consistently by the same people... calling some text on a game's chat "bullying" and/or "harassment" is a tad insulting to me personally.
- In the real world in case of harassment, your options are proving these events to an official (teacher, supervisor, police, etc.) and hoping they take care of it in event that asking the person to stop fails.
- In-game? You can crush the person in competition, type back with no fear of escalation (the only real "escalation" available amount to real crimes, doxing, following someone around across online profiles), block them (imagine if you could effectively delete a person that bothered you to any degree from existing in your life), reporting them (same as going to authorities above, essentially), or even just disregarding them as a person someplace else talking to you over the internet...
- "Victim blaming"? What is someone a victim of, when they see words and phrases they don't like typed out in a video game? Hurt feelings, at worst? Maybe a literal PTSD trigger in case of some intense memory of a life event like a car crash or sexual assault, for a very special/rare negative case.

Bonus, for people posting definitions to largely recently adopted slang terminology, or other words that may have an older definition but are resurfacing in recent years: Yeah, I can nab a definition of a word relating to a conversation too. It's actually very unhelpful, unless your intention is to clarify to a person what sense of a word you were using in the case of a misunderstanding.

Double bonus, for other comparisons to real life laws and events: There's very little similarity to events online and events offline. You are not sharing a physical space with a person, your contact with them is dependent on you not having them blocked, sharing a chatroom with them, sharing an application/site with them, or being on the computer at all. At any point you could disconnect from this person on any level of that chain and they may as well not exist, you're at nigh 0 threat of escalation to criminal activity or physical contact with the person. They keep doing it? Report them, report them the first time for all I care. Block and report, and the person is gone (potentially from the game entirely, if ZOS agrees that it's worth banning the person).

I know it's mystical to think that "sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you"... but, then if words could hurt you, could they do it while flimsily existing in a digital chatroom?

Some of us here are acting like harassment is subjective, when it's not in this case. ZOS has already laid out the rules and definition for what harassment is to them, and since we are playing their game it means we agreed to that definition. There is no need to try to analyze whether or not someone has been harassed, that is up to ZOS.

Pumpkin_pants wrote: »

Some of us here are acting like harassment is subjective, when it's not in this case. ZOS has already laid out the rules and definition for what harassment is to them, and since we are playing their game it means we agreed to that definition. There is no need to try to analyze whether or not someone has been harassed, that is up to ZOS.

It is all highly subjective, which is why I would argue heavy moderation does more harm than good.

TOS rules are usually written in such a broad-mannered fashion that they read basically we can ban you for what ever reasons we want.

For example: being civil and constructive... that could mean almost anything to anyone. Such rules are impossible to follow, as they are far too vague to mean anything specific. Your idea of being civil and constructive might not be my idea of being civil and constructive.

The same could be said of racism - as many people use language some may find racially offensive where as others might even find it endearing.

My point is these rules are useless guidelines and do nothing but promote injustice and give tools for others to act out in their spite. For every one person who is banned for violating these highly subjective rules there are at least a thousand others who go unpunished for doing the exact same thing.

Self moderation is by far the preferred method where it is possible. And on a video game - it is possible. It's fairer, more accurate - and leaves out the subjective and often-times incorrect interpretation of a third party who has no idea what is going on inside the mind of the person in question.

Argawarga wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

For example: being civil and constructive... that could mean almost anything to anyone. Such rules are impossible to follow...

Wait, someone has suggested to you that you be civil and constructive, and refrain from using racial slurs, and you find that impossible to follow? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when I say that you're being deliberately obtuse.

Yes, in actuality I do find it impossible to follow.

As I pointed out - what you consider to be civil and constructive another person may not. Case in point: you just called me deliberately obtuse which I could easily argue wasn't civil or constructive from my point of view... but was instead an insult meant to bait me.

Should I report you?

This kind of subjective nonsense is impossible to enforce fairly or with any kind of consistency or accuracy. Giving users the tools to self-moderate (such as the ignore button) is a much better way to go about it.

Jeremy wrote: »

This kind of subjective nonsense is impossible to enforce fairly or with any kind of consistency or accuracy.

adjective: obtuse

1.
annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
"he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"

We're talking about open bigotry here. Basic human decency isn't some absurdly abstract concept that evades most people, and you know that.

If you don't, it's possible that you're just not ready for broader social interaction represented here. Maybe ask a friend for advice? Do what you need to, just don't expect us to tolerate toxic bigotry because you claim that you don't know what that is.

Jeremy wrote: »

Argawarga wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

This kind of subjective nonsense is impossible to enforce fairly or with any kind of consistency or accuracy.

adjective: obtuse

1.
annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
"he wondered if the doctor was being deliberately obtuse"

We're talking about open bigotry here. Basic human decency isn't some absurdly abstract concept that evades most people, and you know that.

If you don't, it's possible that you're just not ready for broader social interaction represented here. Maybe ask a friend for advice? Do what you need to, just don't expect us to tolerate toxic bigotry because you claim that you don't know what that is.

Yes, and calling someone annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand could be reasonably interpreted as an insult. So I could argue you just violated the rules of this forum. It's certainly not constructive or civil in any case - nor is accusing me of not being ready for social interaction. So it will be interesting to see if the mods give your comments any attention - because if they don't it only proves my point that such rules are impossible to enforce fairly.

Your latter claims do not relate to my actual comments - because I am not suggesting anyone tolerate toxic bigotry. So your claim about what I supposedly claimed just isn't true.

What I am expecting people to do is to put those who offend them on ignore.

I agree with you, being offensive to someone is very subjective anymore. I know people that get offended at nearly anything, but I won't let them change my behavior. If you don't want to listen to me then kick me out of your group or leave mine and put me on ignore. I don't use racial slurs or crack race jokes typically, though I have cracked some good jokes on some Aussie friends ! I love Canada jokes as well, I just can't help myself. But anyone who gets offended by those is probably overly sensitive and I probably won't engage in conversation with people like that anyway. Basically there is nothing to be worried about anyway. The only problem I can see is a group of my friends cracking on each other in party chat and have someone come in and be offended. We would just kick them from the party anyway so it wouldn't be an issue.

Moral of rant is, stop being so sensitive, put people on ignore, and stop asking the world to change for you. Most of the community is just fine and I haven't seen a majority being abusive at all.

I am an Argonian and have been since ESO came to console.

I can confirm racism exists in ESO. Dark Elves tell me they are "the master race" and there is a trailer of Morrowind showing 5 of my Hist brothers carrying a Dark Elf's belongings like slaves. (I was disgusted to see I will be going back in time to the enslavement of my people by the Dark Elves.) As an Argonian I plan on learning the Warden class to destroy the racist Dark Elves and change the history of my people.

Argonions have to have thick skin since players and game makers think it is cool to be racist or bring up slavery.

Thank you,

Floki

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

It's never been as bad in ESO as it's been in WoW.

Every guild I was ever in on WoW had at least one guy who would call me the N Word with full ill intent.

ESO is mostly a bunch of kids when it comes to names, but most people are mature and compassionate.

If someone called me the "N" word that simply wouldn't impact me at all. I think it makes them look worse than the person receiving it don't you think? You know those type, the more they talk the dumber everyone thinks they are. Just let them carry on sounding like fools.

Just going to drop this here.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/60843/community-rules

"An image of a sea lion going around in circles" - for those on mobile.

Well if the Argonians and Khajiits didn't complain about oppression all time I would tell them they make good purses and throw rugs.

ON a serious note, telling someone not to play anymore isn't racist, just prickery.