Do current CP values break the game?

Korsario · March 2017

It feels to me like the current power value of indivdual CP is way to high atm, pvp is complely broken, trial bosses die before they can go thru all their mechanics... And this only gets worse as you add more CP's to the mix.

I always thought that for ESO it would be more of a horizontal growth than a vertical one. It doesnt really matter that you dont increase gear level if you jsut keep pilling CP's to people.

I also understand that people wanna grow in power and feel like they are developing their character so a possible solution would be to reduce each Champion Point power by 50-60% so the game doesnt completly break and people can still feel like they are imrpoving their characters.

At this rate of power creep game will not be fun for much longer imo.

qsnoopyjr · March 2017

In AvA it does

cjthibs · March 2017

Yep. It sure does. The power creep is insane.

PvE is faceroll easy, PvP is unbalanced as all get-out. (Better on Azura's of course.)

Unlimited progression is cancer.

technohic · March 2017

Fortunately for me; there is a non-cp PvP campaign. Unfortunately for PvE; I think it would be hard to offer that as they'd essentially have to have 2 different games to balance challenge for.

Koolio · March 2017

Korsario wrote: »

It feels to me like the current power value of indivdual CP is way to high atm, pvp is complely broken, trial bosses die before they can go thru all their mechanics... And this only gets worse as you add more CP's to the mix.

I always thought that for ESO it would be more of a horizontal growth than a vertical one. It doesnt really matter that you dont increase gear level if you jsut keep pilling CP's to people.

I also understand that people wanna grow in power and feel like they are developing their character so a possible solution would be to reduce each Champion Point power by 50-60% so the game doesnt completly break and people can still feel like they are imrpoving their characters.

At this rate of power creep game will not be fun for much longer imo.

How would we feel like we are improving out characters if you nerf CP values. We would just go through the next few updates just to be where we are at right now. I find that even worse than a power creep.

cjthibs · March 2017

Koolio wrote: »

Korsario wrote: »

It feels to me like the current power value of indivdual CP is way to high atm, pvp is complely broken, trial bosses die before they can go thru all their mechanics... And this only gets worse as you add more CP's to the mix.

I always thought that for ESO it would be more of a horizontal growth than a vertical one. It doesnt really matter that you dont increase gear level if you jsut keep pilling CP's to people.

I also understand that people wanna grow in power and feel like they are developing their character so a possible solution would be to reduce each Champion Point power by 50-60% so the game doesnt completly break and people can still feel like they are imrpoving their characters.

At this rate of power creep game will not be fun for much longer imo.

How would we feel like we are improving out characters if you nerf CP values. We would just go through the next few updates just to be where we are at right now. I find that even worse than a power creep.

It should be irrelevant.
Fun and challenging content should be more important than hopping on a treadmill for moar CP, moar gear, moar whatever.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2017

It doesn't break it any more than being at "end game level" in any other MMORPG does.

This isn't a troll, nor am I trying to delegitimize anyone's arguments on the fact, but step back and look at the history of... pretty much every MMO here.

In every MMO (at least the one's I've played over the last 20+ years), once you hit "end-game level", the PvE content always gets "face roll easy". That's just the nature of reaching the top of the mountain. Sure there's some dedicated end-game level challenge; in ESO that takes the form of Trials and Arenas, but every other part of the game always becomes a walk in the park to breeze through.

EverQuest, Ultima Online, ESO, GW2, FFXVI: ARR, LotRO, SWG, etc. In every one of them, once you hit the various level caps and started doing end-game content, and thus receiving end-game-level gear, the whole rest of the game just becomes an easy sunday morning.

The issue (purely IMO) isn't power creep, though that is a very significant issue in most every MMO; the issue is not planning properly for end-game level Players/Characters on the part of the Developers.

While most of the populace of a game will rarely ever reach a level cap or run end-game level content, there is a decent percentage of a games populace that does, and in most every MMO (ESO included), there is simply a limited amount of content for those end-game-level Players.

I understand the reasoning of the Developers for that. It's because there's such a relatively small percentage of Players that reach the level cap/end-game-content, and it's a sound argument. While they have some end-game content, if they only create a limited amount, it leaves more development time/funding for developing content that the vast majority of the populace will actually be able to run/experience.

But that still doesn't help the Players like you or I who play enough that we regularly hit the level cap/end-game in any MMORPG that we play.

It's an ongoing issue, and while still a prominent one, it's an issue that no MMO developer has found a satisfactory way to alleviate yet.

Ojustaboo · March 2017

Trouble is, PvE is faceroll easy without CP. I just bought a 2nd account, got to level 10 just using one skill and mainly light attacking, wearing just the armour I got at the start, did mages quest at level 9, nearly died once as mobs come through portal, didn't even need a potion (didn't have any anyway)

And no I'm not a very good player

With my other account, I can farm in Crag, just using one AoE (sorc) skill and hardly ever have to pay attention to my health, there's a couple of mobs where I have to pay attention but they are few and far between.

I've just taken my new account sorc to Crag to farm low level mats, He's level 12 now.
I remember the days when Crag released and wasps killed me almost every time. At level 12, using just light attack and crushing shock, I killed first wasp easily, I had to also use block to get through the second and third. Still button mashingly easy.

Korsario · March 2017

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Trouble is, PvE is faceroll easy without CP. I just bought a 2nd account, got to level 10 just using one skill and mainly light attacking, wearing just the armour I got at the start, did mages quest at level 9, nearly died once as mobs come through portal, didn't even need a potion (didn't have any anyway)

And no I'm not a very good player

With my other account, I can farm in Crag, just using one AoE (sorc) skill and hardly ever have to pay attention to my health, there's a couple of mobs where I have to pay attention but they are few and far between.

I've just taken my new account sorc to Crag to farm low level mats, He's level 12 now.
I remember the days when Crag released and wasps killed me almost every time. At level 12, using just light attack and crushing shock, I killed first wasp easily, I had to also use block to get through the second and third. Still button mashingly easy.

Well not talking about getting to lvl 10 or playing a currently brokenly overpowered magica sorcerer class =p Mostly about high end trials and hardmodes where bosses cant even use all their skills before the broken DPS train just recks them.

Korsario · March 2017

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

It doesn't break it any more than being at "end game level" in any other MMORPG does.

This isn't a troll, nor am I trying to delegitimize anyone's arguments on the fact, but step back and look at the history of... pretty much every MMO here.

In every MMO (at least the one's I've played over the last 20+ years), once you hit "end-game level", the PvE content always gets "face roll easy". That's just the nature of reaching the top of the mountain. Sure there's some dedicated end-game level challenge; in ESO that takes the form of Trials and Arenas, but every other part of the game always becomes a walk in the park to breeze through.

EverQuest, Ultima Online, ESO, GW2, FFXVI: ARR, LotRO, SWG, etc. In every one of them, once you hit the various level caps and started doing end-game content, and thus receiving end-game-level gear, the whole rest of the game just becomes an easy sunday morning.

The issue (purely IMO) isn't power creep, though that is a very significant issue in most every MMO; the issue is not planning properly for end-game level Players/Characters on the part of the Developers.

While most of the populace of a game will rarely ever reach a level cap or run end-game level content, there is a decent percentage of a games populace that does, and in most every MMO (ESO included), there is simply a limited amount of content for those end-game-level Players.

I understand the reasoning of the Developers for that. It's because there's such a relatively small percentage of Players that reach the level cap/end-game-content, and it's a sound argument. While they have some end-game content, if they only create a limited amount, it leaves more development time/funding for developing content that the vast majority of the populace will actually be able to run/experience.

But that still doesn't help the Players like you or I who play enough that we regularly hit the level cap/end-game in any MMORPG that we play.

It's an ongoing issue, and while still a prominent one, it's an issue that no MMO developer has found a satisfactory way to alleviate yet.

The diea imo is to have horizontal grow instead of vertical one, make champions point only be like 30% of what they are now powerwise so you cna keep incresing them now and then without them being such a hgue deal and power creep.

zaria · March 2017

technohic wrote: »

Fortunately for me; there is a non-cp PvP campaign. Unfortunately for PvE; I think it would be hard to offer that as they'd essentially have to have 2 different games to balance challenge for.

Extremely hard to avoid power creep in PvE, its expected that new content is harder and have better gear.
An 30 cp increase is trivial, new gear is probably more important.

Having skills behave different in PvP had probably been an idea.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2017

Korsario wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

It doesn't break it any more than being at "end game level" in any other MMORPG does.

This isn't a troll, nor am I trying to delegitimize anyone's arguments on the fact, but step back and look at the history of... pretty much every MMO here.

In every MMO (at least the one's I've played over the last 20+ years), once you hit "end-game level", the PvE content always gets "face roll easy". That's just the nature of reaching the top of the mountain. Sure there's some dedicated end-game level challenge; in ESO that takes the form of Trials and Arenas, but every other part of the game always becomes a walk in the park to breeze through.

EverQuest, Ultima Online, ESO, GW2, FFXVI: ARR, LotRO, SWG, etc. In every one of them, once you hit the various level caps and started doing end-game content, and thus receiving end-game-level gear, the whole rest of the game just becomes an easy sunday morning.

The issue (purely IMO) isn't power creep, though that is a very significant issue in most every MMO; the issue is not planning properly for end-game level Players/Characters on the part of the Developers.

While most of the populace of a game will rarely ever reach a level cap or run end-game level content, there is a decent percentage of a games populace that does, and in most every MMO (ESO included), there is simply a limited amount of content for those end-game-level Players.

I understand the reasoning of the Developers for that. It's because there's such a relatively small percentage of Players that reach the level cap/end-game-content, and it's a sound argument. While they have some end-game content, if they only create a limited amount, it leaves more development time/funding for developing content that the vast majority of the populace will actually be able to run/experience.

But that still doesn't help the Players like you or I who play enough that we regularly hit the level cap/end-game in any MMORPG that we play.

It's an ongoing issue, and while still a prominent one, it's an issue that no MMO developer has found a satisfactory way to alleviate yet.

The diea imo is to have horizontal grow instead of vertical one, make champions point only be like 30% of what they are now powerwise so you cna keep incresing them now and then without them being such a hgue deal and power creep.

I agree to a point.

I think both horizontal as well as vertical progression methods currently being used in modern MMO's just don't satisfactorily account for Player power creep.

Both methods leave much to be desired.

Purely Vertical progression makes power creep increase at an exponential rate, thus leaving Players feeling vastly overpowered and feeling that the game(s) have lost the challenge that made them fun at lower - mid levels.

Purely Horizontal progression leaves the challenge in place, but leaves Players feeling like they aren't really progressing in the game once they hit the designated level caps. It makes Players feel like they've hit a rut that is nigh impossible to get out of. This is also the type of "progression" that leads directly to FotM builds, and having only a set number of "top end-game level builds", and anything less is arbitrarily restricting one's self.

IMO, the best method would be a more Diagonal progression scale, similar to ordinal numbering and scaling systems, but that in itself leads to it's own massive issues, and no MMO developer has found that "sweet spot" to make this a reality.

HegemonIQ · March 2017

I would be open to Normal, Vet and Hardmode...but the last should be hardmode everything, not just the final boss and come with a significant loot incentive. Such as guaranteed gold something.

Of course, it would also be nice with the warden coming out, if they increased the group size to 5.

Korsario · March 2017

Wish Zenimax would actually give an opinion or explaiend us what are their plans so the game doesnt totally break

Betheny · March 2017

They could let us reset the quests and redo them all on higher and higher levels, initial difficulty parallel with current CP cap and further level difficulty parallel with a future CP cap (once CP has been raised another hundred or so).

andreasranasen · March 2017

Another thread wanting ESO to be like Guild Wars 2. Stop with this horizontal progression nonsense.
People who have played longer and invested more time into their characters should have advantage.

JinMori · March 2017

I like the progression that the cp system give, To fix this problem, they could just make a 3 rd pve mode, like i don't know, Normal vet and elite or legendary, just give it a cool name, and increase the difficulty a bit.

srfrogg23 · March 2017

Korsario wrote: »

It feels to me like the current power value of indivdual CP is way to high atm, pvp is complely broken, trial bosses die before they can go thru all their mechanics... And this only gets worse as you add more CP's to the mix.

I always thought that for ESO it would be more of a horizontal growth than a vertical one. It doesnt really matter that you dont increase gear level if you jsut keep pilling CP's to people.

I also understand that people wanna grow in power and feel like they are developing their character so a possible solution would be to reduce each Champion Point power by 50-60% so the game doesnt completly break and people can still feel like they are imrpoving their characters.

At this rate of power creep game will not be fun for much longer imo.

Heh, there's another thread not too far away from yours where people are discussing this very thing from a different angle.

The OP for that thread is asking for another dungeon difficulty level to be added for people at CP600. Vertical growth.

But, there's a bunch of people in that thread who have decided that CPs must be the "problem", too.

You know what though, CPs are basically just additional levels. Maybe CPS aren't the problem?

Maybe leveling is the problem. Maybe gear is the problem? Maybe anything that makes your character stronger is the problem. You know, power creep.

Now, we all know that all the best stuff happens at end game in an MMO, so all characters should just stay at level 1, all skills should be unlocked at level 1, and all content should be balanced around level 1.

Just remove gearing altogether, too. This way, we won't have to worry about things like difficulty imbalances and power creep.

It'll be great, it'll be like playing Call of Duty.

Seriously, is there something in the water today? Congratulations, you outlevelled the majority of the content. Go start a new character.

alexkdd99 · March 2017

cjthibs wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Korsario wrote: »

It feels to me like the current power value of indivdual CP is way to high atm, pvp is complely broken, trial bosses die before they can go thru all their mechanics... And this only gets worse as you add more CP's to the mix.

I always thought that for ESO it would be more of a horizontal growth than a vertical one. It doesnt really matter that you dont increase gear level if you jsut keep pilling CP's to people.

I also understand that people wanna grow in power and feel like they are developing their character so a possible solution would be to reduce each Champion Point power by 50-60% so the game doesnt completly break and people can still feel like they are imrpoving their characters.

At this rate of power creep game will not be fun for much longer imo.

How would we feel like we are improving out characters if you nerf CP values. We would just go through the next few updates just to be where we are at right now. I find that even worse than a power creep.

It should be irrelevant.
Fun and challenging content should be more important than hopping on a treadmill for moar CP, moar gear, moar whatever.

People play games for different reasons. Imo progression is very much relevant.

So while it may not be relevant to you, it is for other people. Don't like it? Then feel free to handicap yourself by not allocating all your cp. No reason to change others game when they have given you the ability to change what you want. Unless of course it has nothing to do with your content but you want others to play exactly like you?

Gilvoth · March 2017

yes.
i went to a no cp campaign permanently now after seeing how it does in fact balance pvp after the champion points are removed.

cjthibs · March 2017

alexkdd99 wrote: »

cjthibs wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Korsario wrote: »

It feels to me like the current power value of indivdual CP is way to high atm, pvp is complely broken, trial bosses die before they can go thru all their mechanics... And this only gets worse as you add more CP's to the mix.

I always thought that for ESO it would be more of a horizontal growth than a vertical one. It doesnt really matter that you dont increase gear level if you jsut keep pilling CP's to people.

I also understand that people wanna grow in power and feel like they are developing their character so a possible solution would be to reduce each Champion Point power by 50-60% so the game doesnt completly break and people can still feel like they are imrpoving their characters.

At this rate of power creep game will not be fun for much longer imo.

How would we feel like we are improving out characters if you nerf CP values. We would just go through the next few updates just to be where we are at right now. I find that even worse than a power creep.

It should be irrelevant.
Fun and challenging content should be more important than hopping on a treadmill for moar CP, moar gear, moar whatever.

People play games for different reasons. Imo progression is very much relevant.

So while it may not be relevant to you, it is for other people. Don't like it? Then feel free to handicap yourself by not allocating all your cp. No reason to change others game when they have given you the ability to change what you want. Unless of course it has nothing to do with your content but you want others to play exactly like you?

No...I'm not seeking to punish people for playing some way different than me. That's just a silly argument.

What I am seeking is balance. Which is not attainable with a system like this.

PvE...balance...ehh who cares. Be a little godling, I really don't care. But for PvP this system is straight up cancer.

alexkdd99 · March 2017

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Trouble is, PvE is faceroll easy without CP. I just bought a 2nd account, got to level 10 just using one skill and mainly light attacking, wearing just the armour I got at the start, did mages quest at level 9, nearly died once as mobs come through portal, didn't even need a potion (didn't have any anyway)

And no I'm not a very good player

With my other account, I can farm in Crag, just using one AoE (sorc) skill and hardly ever have to pay attention to my health, there's a couple of mobs where I have to pay attention but they are few and far between.

I've just taken my new account sorc to Crag to farm low level mats, He's level 12 now.
I remember the days when Crag released and wasps killed me almost every time. At level 12, using just light attack and crushing shock, I killed first wasp easily, I had to also use block to get through the second and third. Still button mashingly easy.

That is from their new level scaling system. Plus they nerfed craglorn to make it so people could do it solo.

Bobby_V_Rockit · March 2017

For some players the challenge may be gone, but how many CP 600 people are still challenged by vet dungeons and trials? I'd say most of them, I certainly am and even now I'm still trying to hone my build and skills and cannot complete any vet DLC dungeons or trials. Normal mode is faceroll boring and vet mode is rage quit impossible. If anything I'd say ESO needs a middle ground to teach us how to build and implement our classes and roles more appropriately.