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One Open Economy for One Tamriel
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Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »What is proposed is not truly capitalism either if it is merely centralized by the man.
A system that allows EVERYONE to trade freely with EVERYONE else is far closer to Capitalism than anything we see in the ESO Economy currently.
All The Best
Hardly. Only one place to go is very controlling and restrictive.
Name one real world capitalistic society with only one market.
We can argue this all day but it's futile and pointless to do so for many reasons not to mention the single market will not come to Tamriel any time soon. Mostly because it lacks support.
Now in the real world "one market" would be restrictive because it would be controlled for political reasons by those who accessed the levers of power.
In ESO however that "one market" once created and accessible to all isn't really just "one market" because every trader would, by setting their own prices, set their own market reality, and because the system would not arbitrarily be altered at the whim of any in-game group it would in essence become a genuine "free market" for all. And THAT is what the Trade Guilds fear most - genuine competition.
Now if every Zone Capital has a Free Trader that anyone could list, say 10 items on, with a higher "tax rate" than is found on Kiosks, and which could ONLY be accessed locally at that Free Trader (not global, or even faction wide), it would solve almost all of the problems with the current system, while still preserving the Trade Guild system for those who enjoy it.
But as I pointed out, Trade Guilds don't want competition - they would have to have some genuine trading ability then, rather than just "market domination".
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.1 -
Nolphi✭✭✭One the single currency and bound items: to me there is no difference if someone earned their sharpened moondancer swords by killing 500 people in PVP, looting 5000 lock boxes or farming 50000 columbine. Just like in real life the economy will work itself out and give effort and added value the correct gold value.
No, it wont, because in the real world you have multiple currencies balancing others out and people can't just print money for themselves in the real world, causing hyperinflation.
And that is exactly why the game has multiple currencies. Gold is essentially "printed" at a stagering rate all the time when people kill monsters or cash in a quest. Without other currencies with independent values, gold would inflate even faster than it already does.
Sorry, I dont understand that reasoning at all. In real life there is just money and that enables you to buy anything you want. You earn that money by selling goods or providing a service based on what society thinks those good and services are worth. Currencies are just there because there are different countries. Within a country we dont pay bakers in bricks and doctors with logs and then section of what they can buy in special bricks and logs only stores... we also then dont go tell the doctor to bake for a bit so that he can buy the brick only gear...
To put this back in ESO terms: why force a person who only enjoys PVP to try and get a VMOL group going? Does ZOS need to put in such artificial barriers just to encourage people to do more different types of content. Is the content and the variety of the content not appealing enough?
And then when it comes to the gear and trait grind: people have been suggesting a token system. There would be no need for such a system if all items were just tradeable....
No one forces PvPers to do VMOL. VMOL has nothing for a PvPer. And bound items are important. Because completing vmol and farming 50000 columbine are two different things. Bound items reward demonstrating skill, not clicking one button 50000 times.
And no you shouldn't have this choice. Because in the end, a skilled player is not rewarded by something exclusive he knows he got because of the skill. It's an important milestone in progression and it itself is a proof that he deserves it and didn't just buy it. If there's 1 tradeable currency - you can buy it offline.
That amazing skill to be able to complete VMOL would be infinitely more rewarded if you could actually sell the gear. Is this not the way we reward brain surgeons while still enabling people with less well paying jobs to still work hard and dream of one day owning the same car as the brain surgeon? Just like in RL: an open economy will work itself out and create the proper balance between effort and skill.
I see that the discussion is splitting itself up a bit between BOP/Currency gates and a central AH. I can probably live without the AH but the BOP/Currency gates need to go!
Clan Nolphi Family Gaming
Follow @kingnolphi on twitter0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »Because zone chat doesn't exist to sell items?- I would venture to say 99 percent of people that play this game are just as capable of me in regards to typing
Just because you refuse to use the tools available to you to join in on the ESO market doesn't mean it's a poor version of capitalism. It's really not.
In real life I don't complain that I can't make money selling X because I'm too lazy to go acquire a business license.
Zone chat is useless.
I was trying to sell a Sword that according to the MM and (b'ah forget the name of the other one) sells at 25k-32k Gold the other day. I was offering it at 20K or reasonable near offer - I wanted a quick sale, and this was at peak time, in a major activity hub. 40 minutes of me putting out the message every 3-5 minutes saw not one whisper, not even when I dropped it to 17k.
The Kiosk System could be immeasurably improved and permit greater access to a point of sale for the many players who are denied such by the current system with relatively few changes.
As things stand even if every Kiosk was sold to a Guild with 500 Members, none of whom were in any other Trade Guild with a Kiosk there still aren't enough "trader slots" for even half of the playerbase.
That isn't remotely Capitalist - its Corporatist.
All The Best
What was the rest of the MM information. How many sales in how many days? That says much about demand for the item.
Nothing blocks access to the guild trader kiosk system other than choice.
Additionally. Provide hard real numbers to back up your comment "even if every Kiosk was sold to a Guild with 500 Members, none of whom were in any other Trade Guild with a Kiosk there still aren't enough "trader slots"" for everyone interested in being part of the trade system? Added that last caveat since not everyone does. Since this aspect has. It seemed to be an issue it's false unless proven accordingly. Last time I saw this the person used her inaccurate numbers in an attempt to back it up.
All the best.0 -
Zinaroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭- Bound gear instead of freely tradeable
ZOS wants people to invest time in the game; people invest more time in the game when they have to do specific content to get specific gear.- Guild Store System instead of auction house
ZOS wants a more realistic trade market where there's room to manipulate the market if you have the means and where trading is actually something you invest time in.- Multiple currencies instead of just gold
ZOS wants to reward people in different ways for playing different content; sometimes this involves a different currency. We have for example Tel Var stones and Alliance Points. Both of these can in a multitude of ways be converted into gold though through ingame means and thus will have a gold ratio and thus a value.
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Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Nothing blocks access to the guild trader kiosk system other than choice.
Yes it does.
Even if every player wanted to have to join a guild to trade some still wouldn't be able to trade because there are not "digitally" enough Trader Slots.
There's 500 per Kiosk and is it 76 Kiosks?
So even if every player had access to only one Kiosk (and we already know that isn't the case) there would only be 380,000 potential traders per "regional platform".
With 3 platforms and 2 regions, totaling (From Zeni's own statements) over 8,000,000 players - that's an average of 1,300,000 players per "regional platform" wanting access to 380,000 Trader Slots.
That means that almost ONE MILLION Players per "regional platform" will NEVER have access to a Trade Kiosk, even if they actually wanted it.
Go on, tell me again it's a choice not to use a Kiosk.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That amazing skill to be able to complete VMOL would be infinitely more rewarded if you could actually sell the gear. Is this not the way we reward brain surgeons while still enabling people with less well paying jobs to still work hard and dream of one day owning the same car as the brain surgeon? Just like in RL: an open economy will work itself out and create the proper balance between effort and skill.
I see that the discussion is splitting itself up a bit between BOP/Currency gates and a central AH. I can probably live without the AH but the BOP/Currency gates need to go!
Bad analogy. Think of the VMOL reward as the brain surgeons diploma. That diploma puts him in a position to accomplish some things easier than others might. Just like someone with a lower paying job can get the same car as the surgeon, he will just have to work harder/longer for it. The VMOL drops might make VMA easier to run but you can run VMA without it.
In your analogy the brain surgeon would get all the cars and then may or may not decide to sell the other guy one.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I like that my time spent in Cyrodiil and IC (where gold earning is about nil) gives me a means to buy gear via AP, TV stones and key fragments. I also dont mind the token system that the vouchers are, except the RNG on them at times is a bit unforgiving.
I also like the trader system. It fits very well with the game IMO.
However I do think they need to increase the number of Kiosks
BOP is a pain but I can live with it. At least you can trade within your group.
I feel they should implement a token system for vMalEdited by Katahdin on March 13, 2017 1:34PMBeta tester November 20130 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »
There's 500 per Kiosk and is it 76 Kiosks?Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Nothing blocks access to the guild trader kiosk system other than choice.
This number is not even close to the number of kiosks in the game. not even in the same city let alone ballpark.
You had mentioned that previously and someone pointed out the correct number in reply to your post.
The rest of your numbers are not even worth discussion since it is full of assumptions and based on a false number of kiosks in the game.. Start with finding out how many kiosks are actually in the game. We can go from there.
Edit: if even 1/4 of the game population felt left out, why do these threads have so little interest in bringing change? That alone speaks huge volumes. Deafening.
Edited by idk on March 10, 2017 6:35AM0 -
Nolphi✭✭✭
Bad analogy. Think of the VMOL reward as the brain surgeons diploma. That diploma puts him in a position to accomplish some things easier than others might. Just like someone with a lower paying job can get the same car as the surgeon, he will just have to work harder/longer for it. The VMOL drops might make VMA easier to run but you can run VMA without it.
In your analogy the brain surgeon would get all the cars and then may or may not decide to sell the other guy one.
No sorry, incorrect. The brain surgeons diploma would be the achievement you get for beating VMA. In real life we dont make special Ferraris that only brain surgeons can buy with the special currency they earn. In real life there is just money and it can be earned in many ways. Quick if you are a brain surgeon, slower if you are flipping burgers at the local McDo. The Ferrari is still available to both. My point remains that One Tamriel would be more fun if you could buy every single item in the game with a single currency and then based on your skill level, experience and preferences its up to you to decide how you want to earn that currency. If you are a VMA master than you will be double rewarded, one time for the items you find and want to keep and another time for the items you sell to those that cannot or dont want to run VMA and will accept a less than perfect trait.
Edited by Nolphi on March 10, 2017 8:05AMClan Nolphi Family Gaming
Follow @kingnolphi on twitter0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just to throw my 2 Cents in: 4 of the 5 guilds I'm in have a kiosk spot regulary. And Not even 1 of these guilds is at the members cap. Also, ALL of them have no restrictions for people to join.
To get even further. I was part of several smaller trading Guilds with far more free places and no requirements in the past. So please, don't try to tell that there is no place in any trading guild on every platform and all servers. You are just not willing to join them.
Also, if you couldn't sell your item via zone chat you probably wouldn't sell it via guild trader.0 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »This number is not even close to the number of kiosks in the game. not even in the same city let alone ballpark.
You had mentioned that previously and someone pointed out the correct number in reply to your post.
Ok so I admit an error.
I was referencing the number of Trade Locations in the game, rather than Kiosks. Some of those locales for Kiosks have more than one kiosk, some have 5 (I am checking them all for accuracy, so far none have more than 5 - do you know of one that has more than 5?), most however have only one or two.
However, I made another mistake - one you didn't seem so keen to point out (and one I made deliberately to see if anyone was taking notice properly - they weren't). I multiplied the number of available trader slots by 10.
Because 76 x 500 = 38,000 (not as I wrote 380,000)
Let's say that each Trade Locale has an average of 3 Kiosks (some have 5, most don't)
(76 x 3) x 500 = 114,000 potential trade slots.
With an average "regional platform" playerbase of 1,300,000 that means 1,186,000 player who will NEVER access a Trade Slot.
Lets be really generous, lets say every Trade Locale in the game has 5 Kiosks.
(76 x 5) x 500 = 190,000. That's still over ONE MILLION players per "regional platform" who will NEVER have access to a Trader.
That's 85.4% of the playerbase (if you want to be precise) who will never be able to access a Trade Kiosk; and that is with a hypothetical "best case scenario" of 5 Kiosks per Trade Location.
Over three times your (I'll assume accidentally) erroneous claim of 25%.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.1 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Also, if you couldn't sell your item via zone chat you probably wouldn't sell it via guild trader.
Ridiculous claim.
If I try and sell by zone chat that requires my an "interested party" to be within hearing of my "shot" at the EXACT moment the shout happens.
If I put it on a Trader any number of potential "interested parties" can browse that Trader over an extended period of time.
The chances of an interested party seeing that item for sale are several orders of magnitude higher than of an interested party seeing a shout in zone chat.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »This number is not even close to the number of kiosks in the game. not even in the same city let alone ballpark.
You had mentioned that previously and someone pointed out the correct number in reply to your post.
Ok so I admit an error.
I was referencing the number of Trade Locations in the game, rather than Kiosks. Some of those locales for Kiosks have more than one kiosk, some have 5 (I am checking them all for accuracy, so far none have more than 5 - do you know of one that has more than 5?), most however have only one or two.
However, I made another mistake - one you didn't seem so keen to point out (and one I made deliberately to see if anyone was taking notice properly - they weren't). I multiplied the number of available trader slots by 10.
Because 76 x 500 = 38,000 (not as I wrote 380,000)
Let's say that each Trade Locale has an average of 3 Kiosks (some have 5, most don't)
(76 x 3) x 500 = 114,000 potential trade slots.
With an average "regional platform" playerbase of 1,300,000 that means 1,186,000 player who will NEVER access a Trade Slot.
Lets be really generous, lets say every Trade Locale in the game has 5 Kiosks.
(76 x 5) x 500 = 190,000. That's still over ONE MILLION players per "regional platform" who will NEVER have access to a Trader.
That's 85.4% of the playerbase (if you want to be precise) who will never be able to access a Trade Kiosk; and that is with a hypothetical "best case scenario" of 5 Kiosks per Trade Location.
Over three times your (I'll assume accidentally) erroneous claim of 25%.
All The Best
At least you are acknowledging one number you are presenting is false. Your assumption you are making in an attempt to pretend to come up with a closer number is still not correct.
However, the rest of your numbers are still based on false assumptions. Until you get it all right it is mute.
I will help you start out with the second part of your "argument" 8.5 million copies sold does not equate to an actual 8.5 million unique players and it is far from 8.5 million interested in trading in an organized manner let alone trade anything beyond those they know.
Really need to clean up with the assumptions if you want any of those numbers taken seriously.
I will give you a big hint as to why those numbers you present do not mean anything, actually 2 hints.
1. There is room in trade guilds that do just fine. So there is space for people.
2. (and this is the biggest one that defuncts what you are attempting to say) If even a fraction of those you claim cannot get into a trade guild yet wanted to was real the outcry in the forums would be deafening. Yet, this thread is on life support with basically you and myself keeping it alive. Does not seem to be that much of a real demand since threads on this subject die really fast.0 -
Reorx_Holybeard✭✭✭✭✭A few potentially interesting stats I found recently. Last I counted there were 170 Kiosk locations in the game not including anything in Cyrodiil.
Next, I've been visiting all the traders in the game to count the number of items for sale on each (don't ask) and was rather surprised at the results. A guild can have 500 players each with 30 slots which gives 15,000 items that can be sold per guild at a time (150 pages of item results).
However, the most pages I've ever seen at a trader is around 90. Most kiosks have around 20-30 pages of items for sale at anytime and there's a good number of guilds with only a few pages of items, just a few 100 items.
Now, my interpretation of this is that despite a relatively low number of available slots for selling (170 * 500 = 85,000) there isn't currently a very high demand of players wanting trading slots but not getting them. If there were you would see a lot fewer guilds with kiosks selling only a few pages of items and a higher competition for more kiosk slots.
Edited by Reorx_Holybeard on March 11, 2017 1:49AMReorx Holybeard -- NA/PC
Founder/Admin of www.uesp.net -- UESP ESO Guilds
Creator of the "Best" ESO Build Editor
I'm on a quest to build the world's toughest USB drive!0 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yeah sometimes I wished the BoP wasn't in game tbh like how it is in BDO, you can test out a build and not worry about reselling it but for less of a profit than what you bought for, but atleast you get something in return.
Also a centralized server market would have been better since the startEdited by Cpt_Teemo on March 11, 2017 1:56AM0 -
jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭I will try to keep this short: At end game this game is becoming too much of a grind. I think these are the problems
- Bound gear instead of freely tradeable
- Guild Store System instead of auction house
- Multiple currencies instead of just gold
I could delve miles deep into each of these and I know they have all been discussed in the past. One Tamriel was already such a big step in the right direction to make this game more play-as-you-like. I am just trying to understand the formal ZOS stance on these items and their rational for not further opening up One Tamriel by opening up and simplifying the economy. Does anyone know the official ZOS stance? Maybe someone can link to prior discussions or make me understand their views on this?
My position is simple: an open simplified economy with a single currency and freely tradeable items will encourace an open free playing style where people can do what they want, specialize and still have access to everything the game as to offer. The current system forces people at end game to do things they simply dont want to do.
people ffs stop mentioning auction house, a server wide trade network would NOT work, it would be filled with nothing but people undercutting one another until items are not worth farming for, and normally the winner of the undercuts are bots because unlike REAL people they don't sit there and farm anything. I would be ok with a localized broker one in each MAJOR city on each map. You go there list your items and others can see what is listed, but you would need to have a broker fee and a processing fee thus making it a slight gold sink. In the end though an AH or broker will never be put in to the game, they have already confirmed that.IGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I will try to keep this short: At end game this game is becoming too much of a grind. I think these are the problems
- Bound gear instead of freely tradeable
- Guild Store System instead of auction house
- Multiple currencies instead of just gold
I could delve miles deep into each of these and I know they have all been discussed in the past. One Tamriel was already such a big step in the right direction to make this game more play-as-you-like. I am just trying to understand the formal ZOS stance on these items and their rational for not further opening up One Tamriel by opening up and simplifying the economy. Does anyone know the official ZOS stance? Maybe someone can link to prior discussions or make me understand their views on this?
My position is simple: an open simplified economy with a single currency and freely tradeable items will encourace an open free playing style where people can do what they want, specialize and still have access to everything the game as to offer. The current system forces people at end game to do things they simply dont want to do.
people ffs stop mentioning auction house, a server wide trade network would NOT work, it would be filled with nothing but people undercutting one another until items are not worth farming for, and normally the winner of the undercuts are bots because unlike REAL people they don't sit there and farm anything. I would be ok with a localized broker one in each MAJOR city on each map. You go there list your items and others can see what is listed, but you would need to have a broker fee and a processing fee thus making it a slight gold sink. In the end though an AH or broker will never be put in to the game, they have already confirmed that.
No worries. If you look at this thread and the history of the other short lived threads on the same subject there are few asking for this.0