Recall COD mails

ynimma · March 2017

Since homestead I do a lot of trading and started using COD a lot.
In the last couple of days I ran into a few transactions which may involve fraudulent behaviour but as I figured out it's completely "by the rules" just easy to abuse.

90% of the time when I COD something the money arrives in a minute which shows that we have a great community and valid intentions of purchasing items, in some cases the buyer was even willing to pay the COD fee on top of the price.
But lately two of my COD-ed items stay idle in the recipients' mailboxes with no reply from them even if they are online which made me think about how COD could work a bit better.
I wanted to recall the mails but couldn't find any option for that. Now I have to wait until the items return and at the same time I paid the fee non-refundable. This opens up a lot of possibility to abuse the transactions so I would have a few suggestions if it's possible to improve the COD system:

1. Ability to recall the COD mail sent out
This would be essential to have full control over the transaction and would give the chance to prevent any abuse and fraudulent behaviour.

2. Convert the COD fee we pay upfront to a "deduction when transaction is complete"
It could work the same way like selling in guild stores: there's an insignificant listing fee and the share is deducted only when there was a purchase on the item.

However I do like the idea of the COD-way of trading because I can imagine there are valid reasons why someone can not pay immediately or meet somewhere but it seems to leak at tese points above right now.
I decided to stop using COD until I can see the transaction more secured and controlled by me as a sender.

***added along the way of the discussion:

3. Reduce the COD expiry to a maximum of 1 day

I do think if someone wants to buy something and "claims" the goods on the market he/she either has to have the funds already in pocket and or should be utilize it in a fairly short time. If any of these are missing, there's no trade anyway.
Right now I have an expensive item with them and instead of a deposit they paid for securing the deal, I had to pay the money for the transaction too.
Which makes me think further along the road and brings up number four:

4. (or 2/b rather) Let's make the buyer pay the COD fee as a "deposit" rather than the seller

I believe this would clear up the ingenuine intentions if there's any.

Beardimus · March 2017

Why do you think it's Fraudulent?

It's inconvenient sure, and you have to wait the expiry term to get it returned but its not like they can steal the goods from you.

I appreciate its annoying to wait, but there may often be reasons. I just can't see how its fraudulent?

Bigevilpeter · March 2017

I agree, there should be a way to access sent mail in general and be able to recall cod. evertime I send an expensive item cod im always so worried, no one so far did not respond, some took a little while, but still

Pops_ND_Irish · March 2017

I have COD as well and not gotten a quick response.
A lot of the time the buyers are in dungeons or have to get to their bank when they can to get the money, because they have none or not enough on them

ynimma · March 2017

I'm fine with players who are in a situation of not being able to pay right there and COD is a great way to solve these problems - they may need to get out of a group or a fight, they need to go to bank, swap a character, etc. These are usually paid in an hour.

The issues I'm talking about is going on for days now. I repeatedly whispered the buyers (once in an hour), they've been online all the time but gave no response at all.
I don't want to go into specualtions about what and why they do or do not do, that would be completely invalid and I don't actually mind it but what I'd be happy to do is to recall the mail and not to pay upfront for the fee if possible

Also I have another suggestion to make the list longer:

3. Reduce the COD expiry to a maximum of 1 day

I do think if someone wants to buy something and "claims" the goods on the market he/she either has to have the funds already in pocket and or should be utilize it in a fairly short time. If any of these are missing, there's no trade anyway.
Right now I have an expensive item with them and instead of a deposit they paid for securing the deal, I had to pay the money for the transaction too.
Which makes me think further along the road and brings up number four:

4. Let's make the buyer pay the COD fee as a "deposit" rather than the seller

I believe this would clear up the ingenuine intentions if there's any.

ynimma · March 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

Why do you think it's Fraudulent?

I appreciate its annoying to wait, but there may often be reasons. I just can't see how its fraudulent?

I'm not sure if it's a fraud because it's by the rules how COD works now but if the buyer keeps the goods for anything else than pay it off immediately I may consider it to be a fraud by intention.

One example: you can link the goods to chat from the unpaid COD mail. Let's say the "buyer" doesn't want the item but would like to resell it because he believes it's possible to jack up the price. I send the item via COD, he tries to resell it before it's being paid off by him and if he finds a second buyer he pays for it and the COD is done, if not he lets it expire because he doesn't really care, it's not his risk but mine: I have to wait for the return and I paid quite a fee.

Maybe fraud is too strict as a term here so I would just like to see a COD system which supports primary sales and helps out those who really would like to buy in the first place but need a little bit of time to sort the deal out.

Anyway I forget COD for now, maybe will use it again once these are sorted.

MLGProPlayer · March 2017

COD sucks in its current state sucks.

You get charged the same fee that you would if you posted the item in guild trader (so why not just post it then?). The benefit of trading in person should be to avoid fees.

COD also open you up to trolling and fraud. By fraud, I mean another seller of the same item can take you out of the market by holding your item for 3 days, while they sell their own with no competition.

A recall option or 24 hour expiry would go a log way towards making it usable.

Beardimus · March 2017

To be honnest, I only buy from traders or COD. meeting up is a PITA if you are busy doing other stuff, if you have a big problem with COD why not just list on a trader?

But actually part of my view is i actually distrust manual trade, as I feel there's a point in which you have hit submit they could remove their item / gold and fleece you.

Is there a sequence that you should follow to ensure that can't happen (off topic I know but as I feel COD is more secure than Trade and u feel the other way keen to know!)

ynimma · March 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

But actually part of my view is i actually distrust manual trade, as I feel there's a point in which you have hit submit they could remove their item / gold and fleece you.

Is there a sequence that you should follow to ensure that can't happen (off topic I know but as I feel COD is more secure than Trade and u feel the other way keen to know!)

You can't go wrong with manual trading: anyone changes the setup on any side the submission on both sides are cancelled and have to reauthorize everything with another submitting action.
Just make sure you don't submit prematurely on empty offers.

heaven13 · March 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

To be honnest, I only buy from traders or COD. meeting up is a PITA if you are busy doing other stuff, if you have a big problem with COD why not just list on a trader?

But actually part of my view is i actually distrust manual trade, as I feel there's a point in which you have hit submit they could remove their item / gold and fleece you.

Is there a sequence that you should follow to ensure that can't happen (off topic I know but as I feel COD is more secure than Trade and u feel the other way keen to know!)

I don't know if you play on console (or if it works different there) but if the "terms" of the sale change, the accept of the trade is automatically reversed and has to be accepted again by both parties. So you put your goods, they put price, you accept, they change price, and your acceptance is canceled. I believe it was done this way to intentionally prevent the scenario you've described. Just make sure you don't hit accept before they've put anything down because they could accept that as a "free" giveaway.

Beardimus · March 2017

Ah cool nice one @heaven13 @ynimma that's epic to know. I didn't realise that. I've only trades with buddies.

So does it matter if you request the trade or accept to trade (giver/taker?)

Or is it the same. If you out an item up, see them change the gold amount, you hit submit (so goes blue) if they try to change anything it reverts?

Awesome! I still like COD as often don't want to travel out but that helps

bg22 · March 2017

I agree. I also made a thread a short time ago requesting a "sent" mail box so we can see who is pending in the CODs.

heaven13 · March 2017

Yes, doesn't matter who initiated the trade. Any changes to it on either side and it has to be reauthorized.

zaria · March 2017

Let CoD expire after 24 hours, that solve the, queued and have to go to alt for gold situation but don't let you keep the mail hanging eiter for trolling or because you try to sell item again for an higher price.
Server downtime should not count towards the 24 hours.
For some weird reason bounty don't decrease then server is down

Merlin13KAGL · March 2017

If 3 days is going to break your personal economy, you should probably be trading in person.

Simple as this may sound, this would put additional strain on the server, which, in its current state, it clearly doesn't need.

ynimma · March 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If 3 days is going to break your personal economy, you should probably be trading in person.

Simple as this may sound, this would put additional strain on the server, which, in its current state, it clearly doesn't need.

Not a problem at all and no banks or budgets broken

The reason I brought this up is to see if there was a better and more relevant way of using the COD option. Hopefully it'll be refined one day.
On the other hand I don't think there would be any more load to the servers as there is now - just a few already coded parameters to adjust.

AlnilamE · March 2017

bg22 wrote: »

I agree. I also made a thread a short time ago requesting a "sent" mail box so we can see who is pending in the CODs.

This would be cool.

OP, I thought they reduced COD mail to 3 days? I believe it used to be 30 like any mail with attachments.

I think 3 days is not unreasonable, considering COD can be used for less immediate trades as well (like someone regularly sending mats to another player who buys them at a pre-agreed price)

SolarCat02 · March 2017

I would be against the 24 hour limit, specifically because we do not always have control over when we can be online to accept.

Example. I asked a guildmate to COD me a pair of Akaviri motifs yesterday morning. He was unable to do it until after midnight last night. In the interest of being prompt, I got out of bed and logged in to accept... But I had no mail. I let him know, and went back to bed. Turns out he had sent them to a different person in the guild by mistake. He sorted that out around 1am by the timestamp on his message, but no way was I getting out of bed again.

I have full intentions of accepting when I log in tonight (and I let him know that). But with the way the server has been lately... I just don't want to worry about the mail expiring before I am able to pick it up! Three days is plenty of time.

The other suggestions are great! But I think 3 days is sufficient for a COD mail, because not all COD trades are arranged when both people are online.

idk · March 2017

Simple change is make the expiration for CoD 3 days. Same as a letter without any attachments. Everything else the same.

It's a simple change and follows logical lines already in the game. Seller should still be on the hook for the fees currently charged when sending the item and nothing is tied up for the very long time as it is now.

Tyrobag · March 2017

I outright refuse to CoD items unless its someone in one of my guilds who is online, and agrees to pay the fee. I got burned too many times by trolls who just want to hold your items hostage or make you pay the cod fee.

Stopnaggin · March 2017

ynimma wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

But actually part of my view is i actually distrust manual trade, as I feel there's a point in which you have hit submit they could remove their item / gold and fleece you.

Is there a sequence that you should follow to ensure that can't happen (off topic I know but as I feel COD is more secure than Trade and u feel the other way keen to know!)

You can't go wrong with manual trading: anyone changes the setup on any side the submission on both sides are cancelled and have to reauthorize everything with another submitting action.
Just make sure you don't submit prematurely on empty offers.

Nope it happens, had it happen twice. Most of the time it's good but sometimes they can get you.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · March 2017

Trading in person whilst instant AND no fees is very risky.

Although it's not happened to me I've heard many a story about ppl being scammed and they manage to remove gold as the offer is accepted...

With that said I sold a high lvl writ to a stranger in area chat yesterday via trade for 150k...
All went smoothly and tbh I thought I'm not getting charged them fees, although I don't recommend trading in person unless it's a friend.

Beardimus · March 2017

@ynimma & @heaven13

Check this thread :- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/328043/scammed#latest

As I originally felt, COD is was less open to fraud in terms of you getting scammed. Aure the delay is inconvenient but it appears from.the thread manual trade is very open to fraud

ynimma · March 2017

Beardimus wrote: »

@ynimma & @heaven13

Check this thread :- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/328043/scammed#latest

As I originally felt, COD is was less open to fraud in terms of you getting scammed. Aure the delay is inconvenient but it appears from.the thread manual trade is very open to fraud

Thanks for the link, it's really a useful one and a matter to discuss to death to reduce the chance of fraud.

The difference here how I see is that in manual/personal trading it's the recipient as a person who can create the fraud with his behaviour counting on the loss of focus at the partner while the system gives all security trading needs. Again, it relies on attention on both sides so any fraud can only happen if this lacks, the system itself I find perfect and faultless.
In COD trading the system itself offers the possibility of the fraud (by letting the recipient keeping the items AND there's the fee on top of that which is lost too, also paid by the sender) and even if it happens it's still happening "by the rules" as the regulations of COD trading is what it is.

My choice here is clear: I don't use COD because I'm, by the rules of the system, at the mercy of how the recipient behaves. If he wants to put me off or just troll me he can do that and I have no power to reverse the process even if it became clear that I was trolled.
So I use personal trading because that system gives me everything I need to control the deal with no chance of being trolled if I pay attention and understand how it works. I can not recommend that enough

t3hdubzy · March 2017

Allow a timer to be set by send, reduce cod fees to have a ceiling.

Thats my vote

NewBlacksmurf · March 2017

I actually don't think u should be able to recall a COD

Perhaps trading could change to work outside of being close and work like a COD without a feee

One question:

Why are you adding in the fee? I know many ppl that do this but I don't agree with it. Perhaps that's why some go unpaid

Nutshotz · March 2017

I'll put my 2 cents in here. The c.o.d system is a joke. There are plenty of people out there that will scam/fraud you out of the item by holding onto it and not paying for it. Whether it be trolling or whatever it's pathetic.

Now the recall after let's say 3 hrs would be the ideal way or 6 hrs or making them paying the c.o.d up front when the mail hits there end.

I personally like the recall. I know I've sat on c.o.d item for a few items cuz I was either pvp'ingredients, trials, a dungeon or the God awful mail system

Pink_Violinz · March 2017

I would also like something that prevents a buyer from returning an expensive item after agreeing to buy it. Two or so weeks ago a guy agreed to pay 40k for some temp alloys. Cost me 2k, which I wasn't happy about. Few minutes later, he returns the package. Wtf!

Shame, because I prefer using COD. Easier than trading in person, and traders can be inefficient. I would like a system where the fee is halved between the players. Annoying for my profits to be cut just because TheLegend27 can't be bothered to find his controller.

ynimma · March 2017

Just a note: the 3 days expiry and return time does not seem to work - my CODed item is still away after 4 days...