yea DK's have no executes which is pretty unfortunate. Another thing what is the "S" in vMSA isn't it just vMA when talking about maelstrom?

DK in general is already too powerful pvp-wise they don't need any buffs.

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

@Lexxypwns

I'm sorry I'm not all that familiar with the mDks class morphs, so I just choose skills that are less popular or less used by mDKs

Choking Talons already deals physical damage, and most mDKs prefer buring talons so I thought this would be a great change here.

Same with deep breath since it just interrupts.

Care to explain why these changes would hurt the mDK?

Choking talons is the better morph of talons for Pvp, aoe maim is much better than some mediocre dot. The only reason to run burning talons is if you play with a mDK that already runs choking. And even then, with the small radius it's debatable

Deep breath is also the good Pvp morph of inhale(I think it's actually the only good morph)

Ash cloud could get a stamina morph without hurting mDK, noxious could get minor fracture(a really rare debuff) and a bit more damage or longer dot, there's the bad morph of volatile armor, frag shield, etc there's tons of unused skills and morphs in this class tree that could be used for Stam DK.

Thanks for the ideas I would like these suggestions as well.

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

DK in general is already too powerful pvp-wise they don't need any buffs.

Care to explain how the Stamina version is?

Anti_Virus wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

I find your lack of creativity to be disturbing. With all of the weapon, armor, passive and active skills, plus the amount of sets you can choose from, it seems to me that you have chosen to chase what some one else called *the right build* instead of looking for something no one else has.

Tanks are a niche build. But that doesnt mean you have to fit it into some one else's idea of what that niche should look like. I played DDO and no one else played the barbarian at the time because they never had some one lead the way to the solable uber Barbarian. There are 3 reason I played it. #1 I love the barbarian class. #2 No one played it so no one could tell me how wrong my build was. I loathe people telling me, you cant do it that way and rather than argue, I'll play something no one does just to avoid that. and #3 I like the challenge.

And they were right that it was a class that would never solo everything. But it was fun. Why? Because it wasnt the easy button. Everyone heads straight for the class that gets them the most return on loot. I go for the one that gets me the most return on fun. I soloed everything I could and even led max party raids because everyone knew that My barbarian did his job and did it well. I still got, *I would never use that tactic* and *you should try...* But no one had one as successful. The #1 question was, *how did you build that?*

I did it by first realizing what a barbarian is and isnt in DDO. It's not a tank. It's not a 1v1 DPS powerhouse. It is a 1vMany DPS powerhouse and not something that wants the agro. And then went from there. I also added in my playstyle and ended up with the most powerful barbarian on the Thelanis server and maybe all of DDO.

So... my advice to you is throw away what everyone else does and rethink the build. What is it and what isnt it? What is your style of play? When you work those things out, what skills fit that? What gear fits that? There will always be the min/maxer that will figure out something that seems to be better but you'll never be able to play his build because it was built around his play style.

Do that, and then revisit this thought. Im pretty sure your idea will be changed.

Hi, Thanks for your view point.

My OP outlined some problems with the sDK in terms of lacking certain skills that other classes don't have to deal with.

For me I would like to be effective in a PVP environment without having to use certain sets like tremorscale or viper, and conversely in PVE I would like to use other weapon skill lines and my own class skill lines effectively in pve like the other stam classes can.

Since I'm a stam DK my only AoE ability is from the DW skill line which binds me to it, unlike the others classes the goal is to unbind the sDK from weapon skill line dependency and open up more options for builds.

Ex: Steel tornado is the best stam AoE, but there is nothing stopping you from using a 2h and using power extraction as your AoE without the need of DW.
Even though DW has a better AoE you still the option to use a 2h weapon and deal AoE damage sDK doesn't have that option which binds them to certain weapons for skills that their class lit should be able to provide.

That's my point. You're wanting something from this that isnt there. PUT it there. MAKE it viable. It's not going to be as good at it because the class wasnt designed for it, but find the best that what you want can be and go with that. I realize everyone wants their class to have everything. That's what's wrong with game developers that make soloing too easy. They pick all the favorite classes and make them uber and forget the ones less popular. (general statement... dont start giving out exceptions). So if you want to do something non-traditional, you're gonna have to make it happen, not the devs. I really wish they would do that with ALL of the classes and give them a down side. REAL balance, not imagined. But that's never gonna happen.

You just said I lack 'creativity' when I explained to you why I "lack" it is because I have no options to do so. Every stamina DK has to use DW for AoE there is no choice that is what the OP is talking about. While other classes do have the choice.

Your original response was that there are 'options' and i'm being 'non-creative' now you are agreeing with me that there are no options but saying "Suck it up"

Well, Im saying that there are options if you choose to look for them.

Please leave choking talons and deep breath alone. They would not be better as stam morphs for tanking at all.

@Lexxypwns
Sorry but when you went over the stam version being better than mag especially with this patch in PvP you lost me.

First of all you went into the HA Meta and made it seem that it is entirely one sided with stamina being the best beneficator which isn't true whatsoever. There are plenty of Mag/Stam DKs that rock HA in PvP more so Mag because well they'd get wrecked since they can only take but so many CCs.

Sword and board. Your first statement about 5-5-2 shouldn't have even been mentioned because you make it seem that Mag DK doesn't do that at all in PvP which would be false.

Ransack or pierce armor is something you'd rarely see because of noxious breath I feel like you're confusing stam dk with a stam sorc but remember noxious breath as I stated above isn't accurate and misses more than half the time.

The burst Heal that Mag DKs receive now definitely keeps it on par if not better than a stam DK (1v1 aspect) as you have access to burning embers that heals you near to full while coag crits heals you (ember heals do crit as well).

Increased resource return on Heavy attacks should be removed because if you use a heavy resto staff you could get far more magicka back then stam so you're being unfair again.

I'll give you heroic slash but not reverb as some Mag DKs do run that as well + I've seen some use shuffle too.

Blocking is FAR BETTER on a Mag DK like are you kidding me?? I've faced plenty of near perma-blocking/perma rooting Mag DKs who spam talons/fossilize while blocking to no end so again you are being unfair.

Venom Claw is a cheap DoT and so is burning embers but burning embers provides an insane burst heal that can be spammed with no cool down attached to it. Venom claw in a CP-less PvP wouldn't be preferred unless you're dueling btw because open world PvP with all the skills you have to slot to make up for the lack of skills to use, why would you use a skill that doesn't expose enemies who are hidden? Noxious breath is mainly useful for that just saying. Addition: In a CP campaign venom claw is three times in damage first by battle spirit, then by CP defender and lastly by thick skin.

You mentioned volatile armor as if Mag DK doesn't use that first of all our pool isn't enough to sustain for revealing hidden enemies so again that's an invalid argument to even make in the first place when we need to be cheap with our resources thanks to how costly the mag abilities are. We need Fossilize and we need igneous shield both for resource return and one for a Hard CC while the other for increased healing.

I'll give you minor brutality and the stamina return but healing wise we both mag/stam receive that benefit and imo it benefits Mag more because you can keep it up longer since your resources would allow for it + reduction built into CP/armor type and it does not work with constitution not sure where that claim came from but fix it. Stam return from igneous shield is mediocre at best like 5% of your max stam for a skill that costs nearly 4.5k magicka lol? My pool is 8k in non CP and 9k in CP, I'm not about to spam igneous shield and be screwed when facing an enemy who I'm trying to setup an animation cancel on since my stam skills are mainly all weapon abilities that can kill but requires animation cancelling to do so.

2H on a bar back. Reverse slice does not proc battle rush please do not misinform people battle rush is proc'd when you kill an enemy with a 2H or a 2H ability at-least look into the passives before making false claims. You imply that follow up which I assume (since I'm not on the game atm but resting from a work out) is the extra damage which is 10% after using it, yeah it's good an is the only way I'm going to kill you honestly. I will need to HA - animation cancel - ability, HA - animation cancel - ultimate.

Stam DK is far from rock solid people love to misinterpret the class as a whole thanks to people screaming about proc sets which are pretty much weak in PvP for the most part. Stam DK is the punching bag the community loves to make misrepresentation of because that's their excuse for not trying to be fair and give us something that we need.

We need an AoE like I stated before Flames of Oblivion needs to be an AoE heck I wouldn't care if it was turned into poison and cauterize was just left as a single target damage ability like the current flames of oblivion just name it something else (side note flames oblivion is funny as the name 'flames' implies multiple yet it's a small ball not balls). We need reductions in ingenuous shield for sustain, we need more skills to use I honestly like that Minotaur skill that they use with molten rock; If ZOS makes more I hope they give us one like that as a trap type skill.


TL;DR Fix your claims and stop being unfair to Stam DKs as they are definitely weaker than Mag unless you're not playing your class right. I've faced many who will sit there pop an immovable potion an spam talons on me while near perma blocking and all I got is a measly dizzing swing, injections, or heroic slashs. Now I could do the same but note that I'm eating into my offensive resource while a mag isn't.

@Calboy
I honestly would agree if they changed flames of oblivion but anything else imo would be bad. Flames of Oblivion could be made an AoE and if they wanna be extra cool for me they could make it poison and just give mag DKs cauterize as a single target damage ability as that ability just sucks completely.

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Dk needs a stamina morph of lava whip with an executioner phase on it to solve the burst issue in pvp.

How about no, stamdk is already the strongest 1v1 stamclass there is.

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Lexxypwns
Sorry but when you went over the stam version being better than mag especially with this patch in PvP you lost me.

First of all you went into the HA Meta and made it seem that it is entirely one sided with stamina being the best beneficator which isn't true whatsoever. There are plenty of Mag/Stam DKs that rock HA in PvP more so Mag because well they'd get wrecked since they can only take but so many CCs.

Sword and board. Your first statement about 5-5-2 shouldn't have even been mentioned because you make it seem that Mag DK doesn't do that at all in PvP which would be false.

Ransack or pierce armor is something you'd rarely see because of noxious breath I feel like you're confusing stam dk with a stam sorc but remember noxious breath as I stated above isn't accurate and misses more than half the time.

The burst Heal that Mag DKs receive now definitely keeps it on par if not better than a stam DK (1v1 aspect) as you have access to burning embers that heals you near to full while coag crits heals you (ember heals do crit as well).

Increased resource return on Heavy attacks should be removed because if you use a heavy resto staff you could get far more magicka back then stam so you're being unfair again.

I'll give you heroic slash but not reverb as some Mag DKs do run that as well + I've seen some use shuffle too.

Blocking is FAR BETTER on a Mag DK like are you kidding me?? I've faced plenty of near perma-blocking/perma rooting Mag DKs who spam talons/fossilize while blocking to no end so again you are being unfair.

Venom Claw is a cheap DoT and so is burning embers but burning embers provides an insane burst heal that can be spammed with no cool down attached to it. Venom claw in a CP-less PvP wouldn't be preferred unless you're dueling btw because open world PvP with all the skills you have to slot to make up for the lack of skills to use, why would you use a skill that doesn't expose enemies who are hidden? Noxious breath is mainly useful for that just saying. Addition: In a CP campaign venom claw is three times in damage first by battle spirit, then by CP defender and lastly by thick skin.

You mentioned volatile armor as if Mag DK doesn't use that first of all our pool isn't enough to sustain for revealing hidden enemies so again that's an invalid argument to even make in the first place when we need to be cheap with our resources thanks to how costly the mag abilities are. We need Fossilize and we need igneous shield both for resource return and one for a Hard CC while the other for increased healing.

I'll give you minor brutality and the stamina return but healing wise we both mag/stam receive that benefit and imo it benefits Mag more because you can keep it up longer since your resources would allow for it + reduction built into CP/armor type and it does not work with constitution not sure where that claim came from but fix it. Stam return from igneous shield is mediocre at best like 5% of your max stam for a skill that costs nearly 4.5k magicka lol? My pool is 8k in non CP and 9k in CP, I'm not about to spam igneous shield and be screwed when facing an enemy who I'm trying to setup an animation cancel on since my stam skills are mainly all weapon abilities that can kill but requires animation cancelling to do so.

2H on a bar back. Reverse slice does not proc battle rush please do not misinform people battle rush is proc'd when you kill an enemy with a 2H or a 2H ability at-least look into the passives before making false claims. You imply that follow up which I assume (since I'm not on the game atm but resting from a work out) is the extra damage which is 10% after using it, yeah it's good an is the only way I'm going to kill you honestly. I will need to HA - animation cancel - ability, HA - animation cancel - ultimate.

Stam DK is far from rock solid people love to misinterpret the class as a whole thanks to people screaming about proc sets which are pretty much weak in PvP for the most part. Stam DK is the punching bag the community loves to make misrepresentation of because that's their excuse for not trying to be fair and give us something that we need.

We need an AoE like I stated before Flames of Oblivion needs to be an AoE heck I wouldn't care if it was turned into poison and cauterize was just left as a single target damage ability like the current flames of oblivion just name it something else (side note flames oblivion is funny as the name 'flames' implies multiple yet it's a small ball not balls). We need reductions in ingenuous shield for sustain, we need more skills to use I honestly like that Minotaur skill that they use with molten rock; If ZOS makes more I hope they give us one like that as a trap type skill.


TL;DR Fix your claims and stop being unfair to Stam DKs as they are definitely weaker than Mag unless you're not playing your class right. I've faced many who will sit there pop an immovable potion an spam talons on me while near perma blocking and all I got is a measly dizzing swing, injections, or heroic slashs. Now I could do the same but note that I'm eating into my offensive resource while a mag isn't.

I was just going respond to him but this is enough,

I want to mainly outline sDKs using proc sets because I knew that this would be brought up as an argument.

" Stam DKs are fine because I get killed by them using Tremorscale, or Viper!"

The very fact that they were killed by stam Dks using those sets already lets you know that there is a problem with the Stam DK, on its own a Stamina DK is not killing anyone based on its class kit.

Dots are not going to kill people, Pvp requires burst damage to kill and dots take time to increase in damage and can be ignored by multiple machanics

Since the class is lacking a spammable sDK has to turn to weapon skills and lets evaluate that:

2H:
- Heal + buff (Good)
- Cone aoe (Crap)
- Cast time damage skill (Crap)
- gap closer (Good)
- execute (Good only one available)

DW:
- No gap closer (Crap)
- Two useless pvp skill blade cloak and flying dagger
- another useless dot
- Best and only AoE for stam DK

Sword and Shield:
- No spammable damage skill
- Gap closer (Good)
- Mostly defense

Stam DK cannot use DW as effectively as they can in PVE since it has no gap closer and no burst damage now narrows down to two options.

2H which has great utility but again not good damage a cast time telegraph skill I impractical these days blocking or dodge rolling a dizzying swing spammer is very easy and is why 2H is not a popular weapon to use in PVP for primary damage.

Sword and Shield is a Tank weapon with absolutely no damage skills at all, thd only way to even deal decent damage with it is to Animation cancel but even that is flawed particularly on console since stam regen is halted when you block and the Light attack ransack bash combo isn't enough to burst people down.

Now we move forward into proc sets and this is where Anti stam dk players come in since the combined damage of animation canceling and proc sets makes sDK viable and this is their arugement againt any improvement to separate the classes dependency from these sets yet call for nerfs to the class in general.

@olsborg @DHale

Its more more advantageous for me if you can explain why you came to these conclusions.

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Just rename the class to weaponknight then, I would be fine with it. Funny to hear all this stuff that dk is too op for like 2 years from the people who are running around as magicka/stamina sorcs or stamina nbs.

Ohhh nooo, magicka is beeter all situation in PvE, stamdk is better in pvp, only with heavy armor , 2h, s&b.