Current state of Stamina DK

Anti_Virus · March 2017

So I wanted to open discussion on the state of the Stamina variant of the DragonKnight class give my opinions and concerns give suggestions on improvements and gain view points from others.

*** Warning long post TL:DR at the bottom***

Atm the Stamina DK is in a questionable spot based on the classes own kit and not other influences, they do great in some aspects of the game and do poorly in others, I would like to add suggestions on how to improve its problems in poor performance.

The Problems:
- low build diversity
- Black and white choices and weapon skill line dependency

low build diversity ( The class seems lack any sort of unqiue stand out skills that defines the class like other stam classes out there, we got 3 stamina morphs Noxius breath, Venomous class, and Corrosive armor. Cool skills, but have some draw backs to them. Two of them are Dots, highly effective in endgame pve but terrible in Pvp and to add salt to the wounds one of the dots is useless (Noxious Breath) in endgame pve since it applies debuff that the tank should be using. Corrosive armor although great in theory is a little impractical in Pve situations 100% armor pen is great but most high end raid guilds will have almost if not already achieved this through group debuffs.

sDK has no choice but to be a weapon class since that's where it gets most of it main source of damage from.

Take flight and venomous claw are left-
Venomous Claw is a great dot that is used well in endgame parses but is underwelming in PVP, Similarly Take flight is a great burst skill but is weaker than DB. These two morphs are the best morphs Stam DK has to at least have an identity.)

Black and white choices ( This is generally a stamina problem( vMSA Dw/Bow dps meta) but more so effects the Stamina DK more than any other class speaking from a PVP perspective here. Lacking in both Aoe and single target dmg in their own kit the Stamina Dk is more dependant of weapon skill lines than the others, Although steel tornado is the best AoE stamina NBs aren't pigeonholed into using DW for AoE as they have one in their kit, same with templars, Stam sorcs are a little effey but the have one stam morph that offers
- Speed buff
- AoE damage
- Armor buffs
- Implosion passively
- WD passively

Being a stamina DragonKnight but not being able to use 90% of class abilities effectively lowers your options on how to approach situations and how to make a unique build and it doesn't help when you're tied to weapon skill lines that don't fully provide the missing class skills depending on the content. Templars, NBs and stam sorcs to an extent can mix and match class skills and weapon skills effectively.

Infact because stamina dk lacks a class spammable and weapon skill lines don't offer great ones in their kits many have turned to Proc sets to deal decent damage in PVP and PVE to remain competitive.

Solutions:
- More class based AoEs
- Improved Single target spammables in weapon skill lines

Class AoEs ( More Stamina based AoEs would go a long way to rehabilitate them from their weapon skill line dependency, I suggest two
- Choking Talons ( Dark Talons morph )
- Deep breath ( inhale morph )

Choking talons already deals physical damage It would be great if it cost stamina instead of magicka would help Stamina DK tanks and just Stamina Dks in general support allies by locking down targets.

Deep breath is the interrupt of inhale, I see this as a great opportunity to convert it into a Stamina morph for decent AoE damage without having to go dual wield, Make it cost stamina and deal poison dmg and maybe rename it to 'serpent spores' this is the morph I would most likely appreciate the most.

More single target damage options ( We have to be careful here as Stamina DK can deal very high Dps in endgame dungeons the goal is to not widen the gap for stam build dps, but to offer better options than proc sets etc. A stamina whip would be great but not nessiary imo.

2H - change the Wrecking blow morph to be usable in PVE for decent dps( lower cast time and damage). Remove the bleed from cleave and its morphs and up the base damage. Reduce the cost of Berserker strike and morphs to 125 from 150.

SnB - Great start with Power slam as a potential dps spammable but the cost it too high bring it down by about 18% and it will be in a better spot. Also fortress passive change it to reduce the cost of Sword and shield skills by 20% up from 10%

Bow - Change Focused Aim to be useable in pve dps skill ( lower cast time, travel time and damage),
Reduce the cost of toxic barrage to 150 from 175 ultimate.

With some class based AoEs and some weapon skill line improvements the Stam DK can hopefully have class based options to do AoEs and not depend on weapon skills so much like other stam classes do, at the same time small weapon skill line changes will help sDKs be a little more flexable. If you have opinions or suggestions let me know I would like to hear.

TL:DR
Small little changes would help the Stamina DK get some flexibility and give them options that are missing from their kit making them so much more dependant on weapon skill lines than other stam classes. Hopefully these changes will help break a way the need to use external damage sets.

[Edit]
New suggestion for Sword and Shield changes.

OrphanHelgen · March 2017

The standard of might nerf was purely aimed towards mag DK's since they got extra dmg on whip and passives in flame staffs, but it affected stam DK alot without any buffs with it.

Stats in general doesn't go well with stam dk, like for example max stamina on a sorc, wpn dmg and crit on templar, and crit on NB. DK's have dmg with poison status effect, which is like 500 dps.

Every poison set in the game, are either nerfed or useless. They are simply so bad that the 300 wpn dmg you gain from crafting hundings rage, are outperforming in any situation, even single target.

The lack of burst and AOE I wont even mention. The single target they have, looks too good in pledge dungeons because boss fights last a standard of might duration anyway. But for bosses in trials that can be up to 5-6 mins long, there is another point of view.

I think when they balanced magicka and stamina, they didn't take into account that stamina uses rearming trap and get 10% more wpn crit, which also btw magicka meta getting lately, with guard stacking or they use trap as well before boss spawns. Magicka single target even outperform stam DK's I have seen and then on top of that pulls 20 times better AOE dps and burst.

I do not have any problems with magicka buffs, but to nerf stamina with that, brings the gap further away then needed. Nerfs like 3% wpn dmg on dual wield, 5% standard of might stats, rearming trap dmg by 30% which was one of the core dots to dps. Also, when magicka are this much dominating trials, night mother and sunderflame are completely out of question, meaning twicefanged are forced to be best in slot, which is basically the same penetration stamina are forced to have in a 5 piece set compared to magicka who already getting this from light armor passives. Medium armor gets crits, which btw, I have done over 50k dps on bosses with 50% crit chance by a mistake in my build once, and also tried leviathan and crit stacking which gave me close to 90% crit as stam dk, and still my dps was bad. Crit builds work on some stamina builds, but not everyone, but penetration seam to be working everywhere. Solo, 4 man, 12 man, and prob pvp I don't know about pvp.

I just woke up, I prob could have wrote like 10 times more.

RazorCaltrops · March 2017

Current state of Stam DKs in a nutshell:

%90 of them had to switch to Mag DK in their core groups.

Integral1900 · March 2017

My beloved stam dk went through so many rethinks recently, luckily I have a load of gear crafted in styles I like so that wasn't an issue. I have ended up with two dk now

The first is a hybrid, max stam, two handed with hand weapon and shield, hundings rage, agility and about 50 percent crit in heavy armour and over 3500 buffed weapon damage. It's essentially a double hybrid as with purple food and a load of prysmatics it uses half magic and half stam abilities, while also being part dps part tank, the play style is so cinematic and revolves around using leap as often as i can in a welter of assorted fire effects. Also as a side note, the aoe two handed execute is freaking awesome. I gave up on a pure stam meadium armour dk however because it was quite simply, rather dull. This heavy armoured beast is way more fun. Does almost as much damage and takes quite a bit more killing. It's not that heavy is op, I don't honestly think it is, but stamina has taken such a kick in the nuts, plus you have to do pvp to get vigor (why can't that be the first skill, that way little care bears like me can do the training bit, get that skill and leave the pvp psycho crowd in peace)

The other is a magic dk with julianos and withered hand, plus molag Kena helm, if I can get close to a target I'm almost invulnerable, even vet dungeon red poo often is not enough to stop it. Unless then can one shot me this thing will dot its way through almost anything. I would love a fun , class skill heavy stam dk, but the current smattering of options are simply not of any interest.

Bigevilpeter · March 2017

There needs to be a stamina morph for lava whip that would fix most of their problems

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · March 2017

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

There needs to be a stamina morph for lava whip that would fix most of their problems

How exactly? Bloodthirst is a solid main spammable.

The guy says the lack aoe dmg.

GreenhaloX · March 2017

This is one of the lesser attractive aspects of the game for me, i.e. nerfing or boosting up one class skillsets over another. With Zen/Bethesda/ZOS, the developers or whoever are playing puppet masters and Gods to ESO always changing up classes and skills, it is getting to the point where if there is a real mudball in real life, I want to throw those at them if I see any of them walking on the street. Oh, this period or quarter, let's nerf this skill or class. Ok, for this period, let's boost the majicka class and skillsets and see how the stamina class will whine and vice versa. So, the mitigation to whenever they decided to plus up one class over the other or debuffs one, why not just create a toon for each class? We have eight slots for characters, right? I guess we would have to get the Imperial Edition in order to be to able create a new toon of the other classes, or are we already able to do that without the Imperial Edition? I haven't really mess around with creating another toon yet, but heading there shortly. This way.. whenever one class is seemingly inferior to another, you can always play the toon of the current class that is seemingly outshining above the others.

Jaybe_Mawfaka · March 2017

Dk needs a stamina morph of lava whip with an executioner phase on it to solve the burst issue in pvp.

Fvh09NL · March 2017

Giving whip a stamina morph isn't the way to go, you'd either *** over mDK in pve (molten whip) or in pvp (flame lash). Rapid strikes is fine for pve imo and I do agree that wrecking blow might get reduced cast time, if they would lose damage/empower. This would help in pvp for burst damage.

Valencer · March 2017

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

There needs to be a stamina morph for lava whip that would fix most of their problems

How exactly? Bloodthirst is a solid main spammable.

The guy says the lack aoe dmg.

I think I can count the number of times Ive seen someone succesfully use flurry in PvP on 1 hand

LorDrek · March 2017

True, stam DK need boost igneus weapons, better clas passives, poison standart, etc. ...

MaxwellC · March 2017

Stam DK does not need a stamina morph whip all Stam DK needs is changes to Flames of Oblivion. I wanted the AoE to return but why not make both cautercize and Flames of Oblivion an AoE but for Flames of Oblivion the damage will do a consistent flame damage as it did in the past but in AoE but every 5 seconds it can cause physical damage (like the the earth shattering under the feet of the target being hit.

I discussed this before but I really want a reduction to all DK magicka abilities epescially igneous shield by at-least 400-500. That is our only way to gain sustain through magicka yet it's expensive and the shield does not hold to warrant the cost remaining high, especially when its scaled off of max health and lasts only 6 seconds.

What we really need now is new skills in general, two per each class ability in our class and have at-least 1 of each sub class be stamina so 1 for draconic power, 1 for earthen heart, and 1 for ardent flame.

Take flight is not better than DB but it certainly isn't better than onslaught as it hits through armor; I could mention the other ultimates that are physical based accessible to us but it's obvious that it provides more sustained damage rather than burst.

I think what we also need as DKs is a revision of our battle roar since we lost dynamic ulti regen which was our bane in terms of sustain. I've advocated why not make it so we receive 15-30 ultimate after using an ultimate over x amount of seconds (most likely 30 seconds). That would aid our ultimate build up so we can keep sustain somewhat high.

Noxious breath needs to be looked at as it will simply miss a target who's right in front of you or will not provide a debuff half the time.

jaye63 · March 2017

I find your lack of creativity to be disturbing. With all of the weapon, armor, passive and active skills, plus the amount of sets you can choose from, it seems to me that you have chosen to chase what some one else called *the right build* instead of looking for something no one else has.

Tanks are a niche build. But that doesnt mean you have to fit it into some one else's idea of what that niche should look like. I played DDO and no one else played the barbarian at the time because they never had some one lead the way to the solable uber Barbarian. There are 3 reason I played it. #1 I love the barbarian class. #2 No one played it so no one could tell me how wrong my build was. I loathe people telling me, you cant do it that way and rather than argue, I'll play something no one does just to avoid that. and #3 I like the challenge.

And they were right that it was a class that would never solo everything. But it was fun. Why? Because it wasnt the easy button. Everyone heads straight for the class that gets them the most return on loot. I go for the one that gets me the most return on fun. I soloed everything I could and even led max party raids because everyone knew that My barbarian did his job and did it well. I still got, *I would never use that tactic* and *you should try...* But no one had one as successful. The #1 question was, *how did you build that?*

I did it by first realizing what a barbarian is and isnt in DDO. It's not a tank. It's not a 1v1 DPS powerhouse. It is a 1vMany DPS powerhouse and not something that wants the agro. And then went from there. I also added in my playstyle and ended up with the most powerful barbarian on the Thelanis server and maybe all of DDO.

So... my advice to you is throw away what everyone else does and rethink the build. What is it and what isnt it? What is your style of play? When you work those things out, what skills fit that? What gear fits that? There will always be the min/maxer that will figure out something that seems to be better but you'll never be able to play his build because it was built around his play style.

Do that, and then revisit this thought. Im pretty sure your idea will be changed.

Anti_Virus · March 2017

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

The standard of might nerf was purely aimed towards mag DK's since they got extra dmg on whip and passives in flame staffs, but it affected stam DK alot without any buffs with it.

Stats in general doesn't go well with stam dk, like for example max stamina on a sorc, wpn dmg and crit on templar, and crit on NB. DK's have dmg with poison status effect, which is like 500 dps.

Every poison set in the game, are either nerfed or useless. They are simply so bad that the 300 wpn dmg you gain from crafting hundings rage, are outperforming in any situation, even single target.

The lack of burst and AOE I wont even mention. The single target they have, looks too good in pledge dungeons because boss fights last a standard of might duration anyway. But for bosses in trials that can be up to 5-6 mins long, there is another point of view.

I think when they balanced magicka and stamina, they didn't take into account that stamina uses rearming trap and get 10% more wpn crit, which also btw magicka meta getting lately, with guard stacking or they use trap as well before boss spawns. Magicka single target even outperform stam DK's I have seen and then on top of that pulls 20 times better AOE dps and burst.

I do not have any problems with magicka buffs, but to nerf stamina with that, brings the gap further away then needed. Nerfs like 3% wpn dmg on dual wield, 5% standard of might stats, rearming trap dmg by 30% which was one of the core dots to dps. Also, when magicka are this much dominating trials, night mother and sunderflame are completely out of question, meaning twicefanged are forced to be best in slot, which is basically the same penetration stamina are forced to have in a 5 piece set compared to magicka who already getting this from light armor passives. Medium armor gets crits, which btw, I have done over 50k dps on bosses with 50% crit chance by a mistake in my build once, and also tried leviathan and crit stacking which gave me close to 90% crit as stam dk, and still my dps was bad. Crit builds work on some stamina builds, but not everyone, but penetration seam to be working everywhere. Solo, 4 man, 12 man, and prob pvp I don't know about pvp.

I just woke up, I prob could have wrote like 10 times more.

Yes this, my main gripe is that Stamina DKs are locked out of multiple class skills. Yet Zos has nerfs weapon skills and FGs skills that sDK relies on for damage.

Anti_Virus · March 2017

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

Current state of Stam DKs in a nutshell:

%90 of them had to switch to Mag DK in their core groups.

Well with all the recent improvements to mDK, sDK has been left into the shadows since mDK is a complete class now.

Anti_Virus · March 2017

Integral1900 wrote: »

My beloved stam dk went through so many rethinks recently, luckily I have a load of gear crafted in styles I like so that wasn't an issue. I have ended up with two dk now

The first is a hybrid, max stam, two handed with hand weapon and shield, hundings rage, agility and about 50 percent crit in heavy armour and over 3500 buffed weapon damage. It's essentially a double hybrid as with purple food and a load of prysmatics it uses half magic and half stam abilities, while also being part dps part tank, the play style is so cinematic and revolves around using leap as often as i can in a welter of assorted fire effects. Also as a side note, the aoe two handed execute is freaking awesome. I gave up on a pure stam meadium armour dk however because it was quite simply, rather dull. This heavy armoured beast is way more fun. Does almost as much damage and takes quite a bit more killing. It's not that heavy is op, I don't honestly think it is, but stamina has taken such a kick in the nuts, plus you have to do pvp to get vigor (why can't that be the first skill, that way little care bears like me can do the training bit, get that skill and leave the pvp psycho crowd in peace)

The other is a magic dk with julianos and withered hand, plus molag Kena helm, if I can get close to a target I'm almost invulnerable, even vet dungeon red poo often is not enough to stop it. Unless then can one shot me this thing will dot its way through almost anything. I would love a fun , class skill heavy stam dk, but the current smattering of options are simply not of any interest.

Great analysis.

Anti_Virus · March 2017

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

There needs to be a stamina morph for lava whip that would fix most of their problems

Would be nice but would cause problems with the mDK class since they would lose a morph. I wouldn't be opposed to a stam whip but I would care if we didn't get one either.

Anti_Virus · March 2017

jaye63 wrote: »

I find your lack of creativity to be disturbing. With all of the weapon, armor, passive and active skills, plus the amount of sets you can choose from, it seems to me that you have chosen to chase what some one else called *the right build* instead of looking for something no one else has.

Tanks are a niche build. But that doesnt mean you have to fit it into some one else's idea of what that niche should look like. I played DDO and no one else played the barbarian at the time because they never had some one lead the way to the solable uber Barbarian. There are 3 reason I played it. #1 I love the barbarian class. #2 No one played it so no one could tell me how wrong my build was. I loathe people telling me, you cant do it that way and rather than argue, I'll play something no one does just to avoid that. and #3 I like the challenge.

And they were right that it was a class that would never solo everything. But it was fun. Why? Because it wasnt the easy button. Everyone heads straight for the class that gets them the most return on loot. I go for the one that gets me the most return on fun. I soloed everything I could and even led max party raids because everyone knew that My barbarian did his job and did it well. I still got, *I would never use that tactic* and *you should try...* But no one had one as successful. The #1 question was, *how did you build that?*

I did it by first realizing what a barbarian is and isnt in DDO. It's not a tank. It's not a 1v1 DPS powerhouse. It is a 1vMany DPS powerhouse and not something that wants the agro. And then went from there. I also added in my playstyle and ended up with the most powerful barbarian on the Thelanis server and maybe all of DDO.

So... my advice to you is throw away what everyone else does and rethink the build. What is it and what isnt it? What is your style of play? When you work those things out, what skills fit that? What gear fits that? There will always be the min/maxer that will figure out something that seems to be better but you'll never be able to play his build because it was built around his play style.

Do that, and then revisit this thought. Im pretty sure your idea will be changed.

Hi, Thanks for your view point.

My OP outlined some problems with the sDK in terms of lacking certain skills that other classes don't have to deal with.

For me I would like to be effective in a PVP environment without having to use certain sets like tremorscale or viper, and conversely in PVE I would like to use other weapon skill lines and my own class skill lines effectively in pve like the other stam classes can.

Since I'm a stam DK my only AoE ability is from the DW skill line which binds me to it, unlike the others classes the goal is to unbind the sDK from weapon skill line dependency and open up more options for builds.

Ex: Steel tornado is the best stam AoE, but there is nothing stopping you from using a 2h and using power extraction as your AoE without the need of DW.
Even though DW has a better AoE you still the option to use a 2h weapon and deal AoE damage sDK doesn't have that option which binds them to certain weapons for skills that their class kit should be able to provide.

Anti_Virus · March 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

Stam DK does not need a stamina morph whip all Stam DK needs is changes to Flames of Oblivion. I wanted the AoE to return but why not make both cautercize and Flames of Oblivion an AoE but for Flames of Oblivion the damage will do a consistent flame damage as it did in the past but in AoE but every 5 seconds it can cause physical damage (like the the earth shattering under the feet of the target being hit.

I discussed this before but I really want a reduction to all DK magicka abilities epescially igneous shield by at-least 400-500. That is our only way to gain sustain through magicka yet it's expensive and the shield does not hold to warrant the cost remaining high, especially when its scaled off of max health and lasts only 6 seconds.

What we really need now is new skills in general, two per each class ability in our class and have at-least 1 of each sub class be stamina so 1 for draconic power, 1 for earthen heart, and 1 for ardent flame.

Take flight is not better than DB but it certainly isn't better than onslaught as it hits through armor; I could mention the other ultimates that are physical based accessible to us but it's obvious that it provides more sustained damage rather than burst.

I think what we also need as DKs is a revision of our battle roar since we lost dynamic ulti regen which was our bane in terms of sustain. I've advocated why not make it so we receive 15-30 ultimate after using an ultimate over x amount of seconds (most likely 30 seconds). That would aid our ultimate build up so we can keep sustain somewhat high.

Noxious breath needs to be looked at as it will simply miss a target who's right in front of you or will not provide a debuff half the time.

Skill cost reduction would be very nice in sDK sustain as well as mDK sustain.

Isn't that just weird? Makes Noxius breath useless half the time.

VileDeeds77 · March 2017

Your suggestions all sounds great except whip. I main a magDK, but I also have a StamDK, and a DK tank that I play alot. Please my morphs of whip alone lol, if I go vMA I run flame lash and if I'm running group stuff I go with molten whip.

All of your other suggestions sound great! I'd love to have a stamina cost to choking talons, it would go a long way in my tanking spec. My StamDK would love it in PvP too! ;-)

Anti_Virus · March 2017

VileDeeds77 wrote: »

Your suggestions all sounds great except whip. I main a magDK, but I also have a StamDK, and a DK tank that I play alot. Please my morphs of whip alone lol, if I go vMA I run flame lash and if I'm running group stuff I go with molten whip.

All of your other suggestions sound great! I'd love to have a stamina cost to choking talons, it would go a long way in my tanking spec. My StamDK would love it in PvP too! ;-)

Thanks for your input, I didn't suggest a stam whip though, but wouldn't a stamina Choking Talons be awesome?

Calboy · March 2017

Sdk is fine.

Lexxypwns · March 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

So I wanted to open discussion on the state of the Stamina variant of the DragonKnight clas give my opinions and concerns give suggestions on improvements and gain view points from others.

*** Warning long post TL:DR at the bottom***

Atm the Stamina DK is in a questionable spot based on the classes own kit and not other influences, they do great in some aspects of the game and do poorly in others, I would like to add suggestions on how to improve its problems in poor performance.

The Problems:
- low build diversity
- Black and white choices and weapon skill line dependency

low build diversity ( The class seems lack any sort of unqiue stand out skills that defines the class like other stam classes out there, we got 3 stamina morphs Noxius breath, Venomous class, and Corrosive armor. Cool skills, but have some draw backs to them. Two of them are Dots, highly effective in endgame pve but terrible in Pvp and to add salt to the wounds one of the dots is useless (Noxious Breath) in endgame pve since it applies debuff that the tank should be using. Corrosive armor although great in theory is a little impractical in Pve situations 100% armor pen is great but most high end raid guilds will have almost if not already achieved this through group debuffs.

sDK has no choice but to be a weapon class since that's where it gets most of it main source of damage from.

Take flight and venomous claw are left-
Venomous Claw is a great dot that is used well in endgame parses but is underwelming in PVP, Similarly Take flight is a great burst skill but is weaker than DB. These two morphs are the best morphs Stam DK has to at least have an identity.)

Black and white choices ( This is generally a stamina problem( vMSA Dw/Bow dps meta) but more so effects the Stamina DK more than any other class speaking from a PVP perspective here. Lacking in both Aoe and single target dmg in their own kit the Stamina Dk is more dependant of weapon skill lines than the others, Although steel tornado is the best AoE stamina NBs aren't pigeonholed into using DW for AoE as they have one in their kit, same with templars, Stam sorcs are a little effey but the have one stam morph that offers
- Speed buff
- AoE damage
- Armor buffs
- Implosion passively
- WD passively

Being a stamina DragonKnight but not being able to use 90% of class abilities effectively lowers your options on how to approach situations and how to make a unique build and it doesn't help when you're tied to are lacking depending on the content. Templars, NBs and stam sorcs to an extent can mix and match class skills and weapon skills effectively.

Infact because stamina dk lacks a class spammable and weapon skill lines don't offer great ones in their kits many have turned to Proc sets to deal decent damage in PVP and PVE to remain competitive.

Solutions:
- More class based AoEs
- Improved Single target spammables in weapon skill lines

Class AoEs ( More Stamina based AoEs would go a long way to rehabilitate them from their weapon skill line dependency, I suggest two
- Choking Talons ( Dark Talons morph )
- Deep breath ( inhale morph )

Choking talons already deals physical damage It would be great if it cost stamina instead of magicka would help Stamina DK tanks and just Stamina Dks in general support allies by locking down targets.

Deep breath is the interrupt of inhale, I see this as a great opportunity to convert it into a Stamina morph for decent AoE damage without having to go dual wield, Make it cost stamina and deal poison dmg and maybe rename it to 'serpent spores' this is the morph I would most likely appreciate the most.

More single target damage options ( We have to be careful here as Stamina DK can deal very high Dps in endgame dungeons the goal is to not widen the gap for stam build dps, but to offer better options than proc sets etc. A stamina whip would be great but not nessiary imo.

2H - change the Wrecking blow morph to be usable in PVE for decent dps( lower cast time and damage). Remove the bleed from cleave and its morphs and up the base damage. Reduce the cost of Berserker strike and morphs to 125 from 150.

SnB - Great start with Power slam as a potential dps spammable but the cost it too high bring it down by about 18% and it will be in a better spot.

Bow - Change Focused Aim to be useable in pve dps skill ( lower cast time, travel time and damage),
Reduce the cost of toxic barrage to 150 from 175 ultimate.

With some class based AoEs and some weapon skill line improvements the Stam DK can hopefully have class based options to do AoEs and not depend on weapon skills so much like other stam classes do, at the same time small weapon skill line changes will help sDKs be a little more flexable. If you have opinions or suggestions let me know I would like to hear.

TL:DR
Gut Magika DK so stam DK can be better

Fixed that tldr for you

You had me until you suggest mDK lose the better morph of all their class based aoes. Why would you think its ok to take more away from mDK?

cpuScientist · March 2017

StamDK is fine. DPS is still fantastic. Also stamDK currently has 2 viable builds one with and one without VMA dual wield. It's a heavy attack dot build and the standard VMA dual wield build.

HOWEVER!!!
Fine is not good enough. Stam is supposed to be the higher single target class. That's how ZOS made it, magicka gets AOE stam gets pure single target. Silly in my mind but now with magicka buffs and stamina nerfs magicka has higher or near as high single target with massive AOE bonuses. We don't need a stam whip, flurry is great! I know we want something new but it's not needed.

HOW TO FIX!!!
Give stam all stam, a class AOE, something not boost able by the VMA dual wield (to not further pigeonhole players to those weapons) so for stamDK it would be a stam morph of eruption. Twisting for stamBlade, liquid lighting other morph (make it a little cyclone) and stamina shards for StamPlar. This will improve Stams DPS and give them some much needed AOE. Secondly, build in some survivability, a stam shield (this should have stuck IMO) although blood thirst is a fantastic heal, and barely drops your DPS but adds crazy survivability. And finally give a stam morph of class AOE ultimates. Poision standard, Wind negate, Physical Nova, and Disease veil.

These changes brings them closer in AOE potential. While still leaving them a little.more vulnerable since they have to be in melee range. Now these buffs would have to have some adjustments ofcourse to avoid anything being overly buffed. But this would make it so stamina is the higher DPS but takes higher skill to play and survive.

TLDR: TOOO BAD!!! READ IT!

Anti_Virus · March 2017

@Lexxypwns

I'm sorry I'm not all that familiar with the mDks class morphs, so I just choose skills that are less popular or less used by mDKs

Choking Talons already deals physical damage, and most mDKs prefer buring talons so I thought this would be a great change here.

Same with deep breath since it just interrupts.

Care to explain why these changes would hurt the mDK?

VileDeeds77 · March 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

More single target damage options ( We have to be careful here as Stamina DK can deal very high Dps in endgame dungeons the goal is to not widen the gap for stam build dps, but to offer better options than proc sets etc. A stamina whip would be great but not nessiary imo.

I had visions of a dev taking to that idea....please no.

Anti_Virus · March 2017

VileDeeds77 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

More single target damage options ( We have to be careful here as Stamina DK can deal very high Dps in endgame dungeons the goal is to not widen the gap for stam build dps, but to offer better options than proc sets etc. A stamina whip would be great but not nessiary imo.

I had visions of a dev taking to that idea....please no.

I don't understand, why would this be a bad thing? A stamina morph of whip isn't needed which is why I stated it in the OP but other class skill lines could use an improvement in their class spammable so DKs aren't tied to DW all the time.

But feel free to explain it gives me other view points.

jaye63 · March 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

I find your lack of creativity to be disturbing. With all of the weapon, armor, passive and active skills, plus the amount of sets you can choose from, it seems to me that you have chosen to chase what some one else called *the right build* instead of looking for something no one else has.

Tanks are a niche build. But that doesnt mean you have to fit it into some one else's idea of what that niche should look like. I played DDO and no one else played the barbarian at the time because they never had some one lead the way to the solable uber Barbarian. There are 3 reason I played it. #1 I love the barbarian class. #2 No one played it so no one could tell me how wrong my build was. I loathe people telling me, you cant do it that way and rather than argue, I'll play something no one does just to avoid that. and #3 I like the challenge.

And they were right that it was a class that would never solo everything. But it was fun. Why? Because it wasnt the easy button. Everyone heads straight for the class that gets them the most return on loot. I go for the one that gets me the most return on fun. I soloed everything I could and even led max party raids because everyone knew that My barbarian did his job and did it well. I still got, *I would never use that tactic* and *you should try...* But no one had one as successful. The #1 question was, *how did you build that?*

I did it by first realizing what a barbarian is and isnt in DDO. It's not a tank. It's not a 1v1 DPS powerhouse. It is a 1vMany DPS powerhouse and not something that wants the agro. And then went from there. I also added in my playstyle and ended up with the most powerful barbarian on the Thelanis server and maybe all of DDO.

So... my advice to you is throw away what everyone else does and rethink the build. What is it and what isnt it? What is your style of play? When you work those things out, what skills fit that? What gear fits that? There will always be the min/maxer that will figure out something that seems to be better but you'll never be able to play his build because it was built around his play style.

Do that, and then revisit this thought. Im pretty sure your idea will be changed.

Hi, Thanks for your view point.

My OP outlined some problems with the sDK in terms of lacking certain skills that other classes don't have to deal with.

For me I would like to be effective in a PVP environment without having to use certain sets like tremorscale or viper, and conversely in PVE I would like to use other weapon skill lines and my own class skill lines effectively in pve like the other stam classes can.

Since I'm a stam DK my only AoE ability is from the DW skill line which binds me to it, unlike the others classes the goal is to unbind the sDK from weapon skill line dependency and open up more options for builds.

Ex: Steel tornado is the best stam AoE, but there is nothing stopping you from using a 2h and using power extraction as your AoE without the need of DW.
Even though DW has a better AoE you still the option to use a 2h weapon and deal AoE damage sDK doesn't have that option which binds them to certain weapons for skills that their class lit should be able to provide.

That's my point. You're wanting something from this that isnt there. PUT it there. MAKE it viable. It's not going to be as good at it because the class wasnt designed for it, but find the best that what you want can be and go with that. I realize everyone wants their class to have everything. That's what's wrong with game developers that make soloing too easy. They pick all the favorite classes and make them uber and forget the ones less popular. (general statement... dont start giving out exceptions). So if you want to do something non-traditional, you're gonna have to make it happen, not the devs. I really wish they would do that with ALL of the classes and give them a down side. REAL balance, not imagined. But that's never gonna happen.

Durham · March 2017

I want a shiny new ability! For my sDK

Anti_Virus · March 2017

jaye63 wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

I find your lack of creativity to be disturbing. With all of the weapon, armor, passive and active skills, plus the amount of sets you can choose from, it seems to me that you have chosen to chase what some one else called *the right build* instead of looking for something no one else has.

Tanks are a niche build. But that doesnt mean you have to fit it into some one else's idea of what that niche should look like. I played DDO and no one else played the barbarian at the time because they never had some one lead the way to the solable uber Barbarian. There are 3 reason I played it. #1 I love the barbarian class. #2 No one played it so no one could tell me how wrong my build was. I loathe people telling me, you cant do it that way and rather than argue, I'll play something no one does just to avoid that. and #3 I like the challenge.

And they were right that it was a class that would never solo everything. But it was fun. Why? Because it wasnt the easy button. Everyone heads straight for the class that gets them the most return on loot. I go for the one that gets me the most return on fun. I soloed everything I could and even led max party raids because everyone knew that My barbarian did his job and did it well. I still got, *I would never use that tactic* and *you should try...* But no one had one as successful. The #1 question was, *how did you build that?*

I did it by first realizing what a barbarian is and isnt in DDO. It's not a tank. It's not a 1v1 DPS powerhouse. It is a 1vMany DPS powerhouse and not something that wants the agro. And then went from there. I also added in my playstyle and ended up with the most powerful barbarian on the Thelanis server and maybe all of DDO.

So... my advice to you is throw away what everyone else does and rethink the build. What is it and what isnt it? What is your style of play? When you work those things out, what skills fit that? What gear fits that? There will always be the min/maxer that will figure out something that seems to be better but you'll never be able to play his build because it was built around his play style.

Do that, and then revisit this thought. Im pretty sure your idea will be changed.

Hi, Thanks for your view point.

My OP outlined some problems with the sDK in terms of lacking certain skills that other classes don't have to deal with.

For me I would like to be effective in a PVP environment without having to use certain sets like tremorscale or viper, and conversely in PVE I would like to use other weapon skill lines and my own class skill lines effectively in pve like the other stam classes can.

Since I'm a stam DK my only AoE ability is from the DW skill line which binds me to it, unlike the others classes the goal is to unbind the sDK from weapon skill line dependency and open up more options for builds.

Ex: Steel tornado is the best stam AoE, but there is nothing stopping you from using a 2h and using power extraction as your AoE without the need of DW.
Even though DW has a better AoE you still the option to use a 2h weapon and deal AoE damage sDK doesn't have that option which binds them to certain weapons for skills that their class lit should be able to provide.

That's my point. You're wanting something from this that isnt there. PUT it there. MAKE it viable. It's not going to be as good at it because the class wasnt designed for it, but find the best that what you want can be and go with that. I realize everyone wants their class to have everything. That's what's wrong with game developers that make soloing too easy. They pick all the favorite classes and make them uber and forget the ones less popular. (general statement... dont start giving out exceptions). So if you want to do something non-traditional, you're gonna have to make it happen, not the devs. I really wish they would do that with ALL of the classes and give them a down side. REAL balance, not imagined. But that's never gonna happen.

You just said I lack 'creativity' when I explained to you why I "lack" it is because I have no options to do so. Every stamina DK has to use DW for AoE there is no choice that is what the OP is talking about. While other classes do have the choice.

Your original response was that there are 'options' and i'm being 'non-creative' now you are agreeing with me that there are no options but saying "Suck it up"

VileDeeds77 · March 2017

StamDK has a spammable with venomous claw morph, they just need to tweak it to be more enticing to use. They could also tweak noxious breath to be an area around the player instead of a cone in front of them.

I'd like to see a morph of eruption to cause physical damage and cost stamina.