Was Radiant Destruction nerf really needed?

Tinus_92 · February 2017

no

Execute down to 20-25% would've been an even harder hit for pve trial gamers. Seeing how sorcs hit now, (from a safe ranged distance), this nerf really wasn't needed.

Mojmir · February 2017

no

only in pvp i guess, which is why most nerfs happen

OnThaLoose · February 2017

no

From a PVE standpoint:

I'm very pissed about the magplar nerfs. Radiants 21% nerf was freaking insane. That coupled with the nerfs to multiplicative CHD, innately nerfed our 10% CHD passive. Trap was also nerfed, unintentionally nerfing us more. Its funny how if a magplar build hits 50k dps, and a magsorc build hits 50k dps and ALL people see is the high ticks of radiant, ignoring the fact that everything else in our kit pretty much blows, and only radiant pulls us up during execute phase. If zos feels the need to nerf our execute, buff some of our *** passives.

From a pvp standpoint:

I will say the range needed a nerf, if anything. The problem is that since its 28m range, with the assault passives that increases to like 48m range in cyro, that needs a nerf. I dont pvp, so i cant say much more than that.

PS. If anything needed a nerf, its surprise attack. Lets make a skill thats instant, very high damage, debuffs you, buffs me, and increases my health just by having it on my bar. yay.

my $.02

Godspeed · February 2017

no

A more interesting change imo would have been for the skill to do zero damage if the target is above 50% health. This would help with achieving forced skill diversity which was the stated purpose of the damage reduction.

joshjda · February 2017

The real issue with anything templar is the fact that it can be buffed with fire damage buffs it's why radiant oppression etc ends up overpowered. There are too many damage bonuses able to be stacked most fire damage boosting items are made with the very weak dragon knight fire abilities in mind. Just no longer allow fire damage buffs to affect anything in the templar tree as its all strong enough on it's own anyway and all problems fixed.

Futhermore nothing should ever be nerfed in game over pvp the pvp system in this game is beyond broken and beyond crap due to their allowing all pve sets to be used you really want to fix things in eso.

1. You remove damage cap from pvp make sets that work as pvp only sets making only those reduce damage so players have to use special sets or get destroyed.

2. You make the sets increase health stamina and magika by 100% while reducing regens by 60%-80% this will force players to have to budget their moves to save on resources. It will also effectively double health keeping players from being instantly wrecked after a knock down fear stun etc changing the games dynamic. The strategy will no longer be knock people over then kill them before they can get up as it is right now.

3. You have to reduce healing done by 50%-75% because lets face it players healing back 100% health in a single heal is well stupid. You will also have to put damage shields on a cool down (the 6 seconds it lasts) while cutting the dodge chance by not allowing it to dodge more then one attack in a row this crap where people dodge five and six attacks with major evasion due to luck is bs ( needs to be 20% chance for a dodge and only dodge one attack then you must take a hit then 20% dodge chance again).

What is mentioned above is alot of work but it is really the only way to fix your problems ruining stuff in the game on a monthly basis over pvp especially your very bad pvp will be alot more work over time then actually fixing it the right way in the first place. Naturally my suggestions are not perfect they are a guideline to be used with the idea adjustments for a finely tuned system would be required.

thankyourat · February 2017

yes

joshjda wrote: »

The real issue with anything templar is the fact that it can be buffed with fire damage buffs it's why radiant oppression etc ends up overpowered. There are too many damage bonuses able to be stacked most fire damage boosting items are made with the very weak dragon knight fire abilities in mind. Just no longer allow fire damage buffs to affect anything in the templar tree as its all strong enough on it's own anyway and all problems fixed.

Futhermore nothing should ever be nerfed in game over pvp the pvp system in this game is beyond broken and beyond crap due to their allowing all pve sets to be used you really want to fix things in eso.

1. You remove damage cap from pvp make sets that work as pvp only sets making only those reduce damage so players have to use special sets or get destroyed.

2. You make the sets increase health stamina and magika by 100% while reducing regens by 60%-80% this will force players to have to budget their moves to save on resources. It will also effectively double health keeping players from being instantly wrecked after a knock down fear stun etc changing the games dynamic. The strategy will no longer be knock people over then kill them before they can get up as it is right now.

3. You have to reduce healing done by 50%-75% because lets face it players healing back 100% health in a single heal is well stupid. You will also have to put damage shields on a cool down (the 6 seconds it lasts) while cutting the dodge chance by not allowing it to dodge more then one attack in a row this crap where people dodge five and six attacks with major evasion due to luck is bs ( needs to be 20% chance for a dodge and only dodge one attack then you must take a hit then 20% dodge chance again).

What is mentioned above is alot of work but it is really the only way to fix your problems ruining stuff in the game on a monthly basis over pvp especially your very bad pvp will be alot more work over time then actually fixing it the right way in the first place. Naturally my suggestions are not perfect they are a guideline to be used with the idea adjustments for a finely tuned system would be required.

They could just balance the game around PvP, and just adjust the health of NPCs in PvE accordingly. That way competitive PvP or competitive PvE are affected

Preyfar · February 2017

yes but it shouldn't have been that harsh

My Radiant Destruction his about as hard as a foam bat nowadays.

EldritchPenguin · February 2017

yes

joshjda wrote: »

The real issue with anything templar is the fact that it can be buffed with fire damage buffs it's why radiant oppression etc ends up overpowered. There are too many damage bonuses able to be stacked most fire damage boosting items are made with the very weak dragon knight fire abilities in mind. Just no longer allow fire damage buffs to affect anything in the templar tree as its all strong enough on it's own anyway and all problems fixed.

Um, what? Templars have one class ability that deals fire damage. One. Only Sun Fire deals fire damage. Everything else in the Templar tree deals magic or physical damage (and only stamina morphs use physical damage), including Radiant Destruction and its morphs. Fire damage bonuses benefit Sun Fire, Blockade of Fire, and the Grothdarr helm. That's all of your fire damage for Magplars.

Furthermore, there is only one set that directly boosts fire damage only, and that is Silks of the Sun, which is less powerful than Law of Julianos, even for Magicka Dragonknights that only use fire damage. Burning Spellweave benefits from fire damage, but boosts damage with all damage types, and while it is best in slot for Magicka Templars, it's equally effective on the other three classes. Except, of course, for Dragonknights, which use solely fire damage.

On a side note, Dragonknight fire abilities are not weak. Burning Embers is one of the strongest DoTs in the game, as well as being one of the most Magicka-efficient damage spells, if not the most efficient. Not to mention that it gets boosted by 10% from Engulfing Flames, which not only applies to all of your fire damage, but to your entire team's fire damage as well. Dragonknights are very strong, especially this patch.

joshjda wrote: »

1. You remove damage cap from pvp make sets that work as pvp only sets making only those reduce damage so players have to use special sets or get destroyed.

2. You make the sets increase health stamina and magika by 100% while reducing regens by 60%-80% this will force players to have to budget their moves to save on resources. It will also effectively double health keeping players from being instantly wrecked after a knock down fear stun etc changing the games dynamic. The strategy will no longer be knock people over then kill them before they can get up as it is right now.

3. You have to reduce healing done by 50%-75% because lets face it players healing back 100% health in a single heal is well stupid. You will also have to put damage shields on a cool down (the 6 seconds it lasts) while cutting the dodge chance by not allowing it to dodge more then one attack in a row this crap where people dodge five and six attacks with major evasion due to luck is bs ( needs to be 20% chance for a dodge and only dodge one attack then you must take a hit then 20% dodge chance again).

What is mentioned above is alot of work but it is really the only way to fix your problems ruining stuff in the game on a monthly basis over pvp especially your very bad pvp will be alot more work over time then actually fixing it the right way in the first place. Naturally my suggestions are not perfect they are a guideline to be used with the idea adjustments for a finely tuned system would be required.

A massive selling point of PvP, and, in fact, the game as a whole, is that it's relatively easy to go from PvE to PvP and vice versa. Making sets that are not only PvP-only, but are also mandatory for PvP, would undermine this substantially. PvP needs to be made easier to get into, not harder.
Effective health is already more than doubled through the Battle Spirit buff; every player takes 50% less damage and gets an extra 5,000 hitpoints, all for the meager cost of setting foot in Cyrodill. Also, boosting player health further while simultaneously boosting all players' health and damage will do nothing in the long run. We might have more hitpoints, but we'll also have more powerful Wrecking Blow combos thrown in our faces, and we'd be right back at square one.
Healing is already reduced by 50% by Battle Spirit. And on top of that, it also halves the strength of damage shields. Nerfing damage shields further in PvP would completely gut light armor users, and light armor is already struggling to maintain its relevance in PvP. Furthermore, Major Evasion already got a nerf; it was reduced from 20% to 15%. Nerfing it further would actually hurt PvE builds just as much as it would hurt PvP builds (if not more), and it seems to me that something like that is exactly the kind of thing you want to avoid.

It's no secret that PvP has its fair share of problems, but those problems are things like stacking proc sets, imbalance between armor weights, too much emphasis on burst damage (making DoTs less relevant), and ridiculously powerful and hard to counter abilities like Eye of the Storm. But despite these problems, ESO's PvP is not as bad as you seem to make it out to be.

Jimboo84 · February 2017

yes but it shouldn't have been that harsh

I'm not one who's crying for nerfing skills. You still need to try avoid it, same for other skills which could be OP.

Cinbri · February 2017

yes

Briuce wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Briuce wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Before change: Cast Radiant Oppression morph on target, then cast Vampire Bane on target = damage was same. Execute that deal same damage as ordinary dps skill to 100%hp target is hardly what i see as balanced execute.

I'm not sure I get this... It needed to be nerfed, because it dealt as much damage as a regular ability? I mean the best spell templar supposedly has, could not be as good as a regular ability anyone can use? At least that's what I understood from your post...

You implying execute should hit 100%hp target same hard as typical dps ability.. Execute must be execute, not main dps ability. Now in execute phase it doing it's job and still hit hard, unlike spamming it on 100% hp target. Stop count on overperfoming skills.
Range nerf wouldnt change anything beside killing this ability for those who small-scaling instead of stand beside zerg and spam it.

I still struggle to understand your point... Bad players spammed a skill that did mediocre damage above its execute threshold, so it was overperforming and I'm a bad player for making a thread about its nerf where i ask for the community opinions?

By the way, I have never mentioned how hard should radiant destruction hit, that was all you making comparisons with Vampire Bane

People spammed execute because it dealt as much damage as any other templar range dps ability to target with 100%. Don't know what is unclear here. Now execute is execute, not main dps ability in pvp.

BNOC · February 2017

yes but it shouldn't have been that harsh

Imo the damage wasn't the issue - The only time it annoyed me (and I main a Templar) was when I'd have a group of people on me and they'd have the one button warrior templars that all beam me without anything else from full health.
- I would expect anyone being hit by multiple frags at the same time or another equally powerful ability would be just as frustrated.

Nobody ever got mad at one templar beaming them from full health because they'd get wrecked.

It should have just been greyed out and not castable until 30% or something.

Alcast · February 2017

no

Range is the issue, not the damage.

+ the nerf hit the ability hard in PvE

Father_X_Zombie · February 2017

yes

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Does a bear crap in the woods?

Not if its in a zoo

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2017

yes

Templars were basically using one skill from about 40% health and winning DPS Races. It needed to be brought in line to where it makes sense to use it a low health, but it is still part of the rotation. Templars are still doing just fine with DPS. I do not think it was too harsh, but I might have done it a little differently. Executes shouldnt scale at 50%. That is where I would have started.

Minno · February 2017

yes

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Templars were basically using one skill from about 40% health and winning DPS Races. It needed to be brought in line to where it makes sense to use it a low health, but it is still part of the rotation. Templars are still doing just fine with DPS. I do not think it was too harsh, but I might have done it a little differently. Executes shouldnt scale at 50%. That is where I would have started.

It was needed mostly because they put 8% additional direct dmg into the fire destro staff and the extra magicka from the 13 mage tree CP. It's still effective because it cuts through dodge, scales off low health over the course of the channel, and locks on the target allowing a ranged Templar to combo a kill using delayed dmg.

Because of the above, you still need to block/heal and los/purge to counter it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2017

yes

Minno wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Templars were basically using one skill from about 40% health and winning DPS Races. It needed to be brought in line to where it makes sense to use it a low health, but it is still part of the rotation. Templars are still doing just fine with DPS. I do not think it was too harsh, but I might have done it a little differently. Executes shouldnt scale at 50%. That is where I would have started.

It was needed mostly because they put 8% additional direct dmg into the fire destro staff and the extra magicka from the 13 mage tree CP. It's still effective because it cuts through dodge, scales off low health over the course of the channel, and locks on the target allowing a ranged Templar to combo a kill using delayed dmg.

Because of the above, you still need to block/heal and los/purge to counter it.

Well, most competitive templars run DW on their radiant bar. The CP issue is something different. We are always going to see nerfs on everything that is overperforming to combat power creep. Same reason you cant balance just with buffs. In PVE, Raid DPS has seen a huge increase this patch. It always does.

Minno · February 2017

yes

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Templars were basically using one skill from about 40% health and winning DPS Races. It needed to be brought in line to where it makes sense to use it a low health, but it is still part of the rotation. Templars are still doing just fine with DPS. I do not think it was too harsh, but I might have done it a little differently. Executes shouldnt scale at 50%. That is where I would have started.

It was needed mostly because they put 8% additional direct dmg into the fire destro staff and the extra magicka from the 13 mage tree CP. It's still effective because it cuts through dodge, scales off low health over the course of the channel, and locks on the target allowing a ranged Templar to combo a kill using delayed dmg.

Because of the above, you still need to block/heal and los/purge to counter it.

Well, most competitive templars run DW on their radiant bar. The CP issue is something different. We are always going to see nerfs on everything that is overperforming to combat power creep. Same reason you cant balance just with buffs. In PVE, Raid DPS has seen a huge increase this patch. It always does.

True, true. For weapon selection, it's either flat extra 5% dmg with swords (I think it's 2.5 each?) Or 8% single target with destro.

But what I was trying to say is despite the original skill putting dmg at the front end, they distributed the nerf so that you could gain some of that dmg back (CP, destro fire, Soulshine, etc.). Not all, but enough so that Templars that use that skill in rotation can still do dmg with it for early executes (which is arguably the unique trait of the skill). I haven't tested at what range we should be executing now, but for PVP its still a superior skill due to the range/auto calculated low health dmg ticks.

Regardless, the nerf was needed.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2017

Alcast wrote: »

Range is the issue, not the damage.

+ the nerf hit the ability hard in PvE

This.

Minno · February 2017

yes

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Range is the issue, not the damage.

+ the nerf hit the ability hard in PvE

This.

Id argue that the range was keeping the ability visible in open pvp. A melee Templar could still be close and if you were in execute range, you'd be dead without seeing the ability at all.

At least you saw the Templars spamming it to give you time to cast vigor, hold block and run to even the odds.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2017

Minno wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Range is the issue, not the damage.

+ the nerf hit the ability hard in PvE

This.

Id argue that the range was keeping the ability visible in open pvp. A melee Templar could still be close and if you were in execute range, you'd be dead without seeing the ability at all.

At least you saw the Templars spamming it to give you time to cast vigor, hold block and run to even the odds.

Animation cancelled reverse slice/executioner basically does the same thing. Don't get in execute range, and you won't have to worry about being executed.

Isellskooma · February 2017

no

No one asked for a damage nerf, just better counters.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2017

Isellskooma wrote: »

No one asked for a damage nerf, just better counters.

And line of sight to work worth a damn.

Minno · February 2017

yes

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Range is the issue, not the damage.

+ the nerf hit the ability hard in PvE

This.

Id argue that the range was keeping the ability visible in open pvp. A melee Templar could still be close and if you were in execute range, you'd be dead without seeing the ability at all.

At least you saw the Templars spamming it to give you time to cast vigor, hold block and run to even the odds.

Animation cancelled reverse slice/executioner basically does the same thing. Don't get in execute range, and you won't have to worry about being executed.

This has been my argument to keep RD's range. Given the range/healing tree, it makes no sense to reduced the range since most Templars can't have sorc/NB mobility and many are up close anyway using jabs/sweeps.

Reducing the range of RD would also put Magicka Templar behind bow/NB's/sorcs for effectiveness who all use a ranged execute (sorcs being a more Passive, but you can cast lighting range and just wait).

The dmg change was still the right move, sadly.

Cîanai · February 2017

no

Alcast wrote: »

+ the nerf hit the ability hard in PvE

Thats an understatement. This nerf (and some buffs for DK and Sorc ofc) destroyed Templar DDs in PvE....

Docmandu · February 2017

yes

Yes... actually wish the game didn't have finishers at all.

timidobserver · February 2017

no

Cîanai wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

+ the nerf hit the ability hard in PvE

Thats an understatement. This nerf (and some buffs for DK and Sorc ofc) destroyed Templar DDs in PvE....

Not quite destroyed, but I suspect that the YouTubers, streamers, and fotm hoppers will be moving on to another class.

Minalan · February 2017

yes

Range was the only problem with RD. You can still spam it safely stacked six people deep in a Zerg blob, and the victim can't reach or target the Templar to stop it.

The damage was never the issue.

It needed a nerf, badly. But ZOS picked the wrong one.

JinMori · February 2017

I believe that it needed a nerf, but they should have reduced the range instead of the damage, the big problem in pvp is that a player can just press a button from 30 meters away, and kill you in 1 shot if you are at low health. this nerf doesn't fix anything, it only reduces damage pve wise.

JinMori · February 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

Briuce wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Briuce wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Before change: Cast Radiant Oppression morph on target, then cast Vampire Bane on target = damage was same. Execute that deal same damage as ordinary dps skill to 100%hp target is hardly what i see as balanced execute.

I'm not sure I get this... It needed to be nerfed, because it dealt as much damage as a regular ability? I mean the best spell templar supposedly has, could not be as good as a regular ability anyone can use? At least that's what I understood from your post...

You implying execute should hit 100%hp target same hard as typical dps ability.. Execute must be execute, not main dps ability. Now in execute phase it doing it's job and still hit hard, unlike spamming it on 100% hp target. Stop count on overperfoming skills.
Range nerf wouldnt change anything beside killing this ability for those who small-scaling instead of stand beside zerg and spam it.

I still struggle to understand your point... Bad players spammed a skill that did mediocre damage above its execute threshold, so it was overperforming and I'm a bad player for making a thread about its nerf where i ask for the community opinions?

By the way, I have never mentioned how hard should radiant destruction hit, that was all you making comparisons with Vampire Bane

People spammed execute because it dealt as much damage as any other templar range dps ability to target with 100%. Don't know what is unclear here. Now execute is execute, not main dps ability in pvp.

You are blowing this way out of proportion, while it's true that radiant deals very high damage at low health,it's also true that the damage is negligible at 100%, radiant starts dealing heavy damage at around 30 %. players who used this at 100% are noobs.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · February 2017

JinMori wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Briuce wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Briuce wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Before change: Cast Radiant Oppression morph on target, then cast Vampire Bane on target = damage was same. Execute that deal same damage as ordinary dps skill to 100%hp target is hardly what i see as balanced execute.

I'm not sure I get this... It needed to be nerfed, because it dealt as much damage as a regular ability? I mean the best spell templar supposedly has, could not be as good as a regular ability anyone can use? At least that's what I understood from your post...

You implying execute should hit 100%hp target same hard as typical dps ability.. Execute must be execute, not main dps ability. Now in execute phase it doing it's job and still hit hard, unlike spamming it on 100% hp target. Stop count on overperfoming skills.
Range nerf wouldnt change anything beside killing this ability for those who small-scaling instead of stand beside zerg and spam it.

I still struggle to understand your point... Bad players spammed a skill that did mediocre damage above its execute threshold, so it was overperforming and I'm a bad player for making a thread about its nerf where i ask for the community opinions?

By the way, I have never mentioned how hard should radiant destruction hit, that was all you making comparisons with Vampire Bane

People spammed execute because it dealt as much damage as any other templar range dps ability to target with 100%. Don't know what is unclear here. Now execute is execute, not main dps ability in pvp.

You are blowing this way out of proportion, while it's true that radiant deals very high damage at low health,it's also true that the damage is negligible at 100%, radiant starts dealing heavy damage at around 30 %. players who used this at 100% are noobs.

The only time I use radiant at full health is when an opponent obviously drops a trap in a duel and won't move off of it. It never really hits hard, but it always gets them to leave their traps.