Can We All Agree "Bow Builds" Aren't Viable?

Mush55 · February 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bow build dps is viable for 95% of the games pve content, you can put out enough dmg to do everything apart from vet trials pretty much.

That to me makes the 'viable' , are they the best? No, but they are viable.

True but 95% of the people using them arn't and can't................................

Malamar1229 · February 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

I love the logic...

2h/bow is considered good to best at the very least viable stam for PVP.
DW/bow is considered good to best stam at the very least viable for DPS PVE.

Bow/Bow not being just as viable as both of those means... bow is underpowered???

Seems to me that neither of those other two were one weapon double barred either.

Seems to me if you are part of the top or "viable" builds in both PVE and PVP and well regarded in many non-trial PVE due to range flexibility... you might not be my first candidate for a buff.

Well you know what I think about you, but I am going to go on record and say I agree with your points here. I would bet OP is on console. My wife runs dw front and bow back on her stam nd and gets told by 14 yr old guys all the time she is not running optimal by using bows on backbar. They keep saying 2h/dw

Its a whole different mindset and crowd over there.

SanSan · February 2017

Who knows yet. Maybe with Warden they will be great?
Warden might slow enemies down and have a pet bear to tank/damage.
It might work if it has some nice stamina morphs or a teleport like Sorcs.

Korah_Eaglecry · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

First off, the reason bows are so common at dolmens is because everything dies so quickly that you need to be spamming ranged attacks to get kill credit. Trying to run around finding things to melee is pointless, and almost all stamina builds use a bow back bar anyways.

That said, bow SHOULD be a solid choice as a main weapon for stamina builds, and the only thing holding it back is a proper spammable damage attack. Of course, if attack canceling/weaving was fixed, bow would be fine.

Imo they need to replace magnum shot, or at least one of its morphs, with an instant, full range direct damage attack that can be woven with light or medium attacks to contend with other options for damage. Bow has good dots with poison injection and endless hail, but snipe fails as a spammable.

Can you explain to me why it is a bow and arrow would be a main choice of weaponry for a stamina-oriented build, when you have: Axes, hammers, dual-wielded daggers and swords, and greatswords, and swords and shields? How does that even sound right? Lol. As a backup weapon? Sure. I can see that, and use a bow as my backup weapon of choice for stamina builds. But main weapon? Lol nope.

I met someone a few days ago saying the same thing at a WB with their double bow build. Know what happened? Lol. They kept light attacking the boss with poison injections here and there, and proceeded to get slapped silly. Lmao. I just watched knowing that I was correct, and how what they were attempting to do was futile. But still let them have at it. After getting brutally annihilated about a good 7 to 8 times, he cussed me out and proceeded with leaving. I then proceeded with solo'ing said boss, and collecting my loot. Poor fella. He doesn't get it.

Its almost as if people want to play a fantasy game as a Ranger/Archer.....I mean go figure right?

kojou · February 2017

I use bow as a main weapon, but I back bar dual wield for Blood Craze, Rapid Strikes, and Rend...

Tandor · February 2017

Titansteele wrote: »

I agree, if you want to play using only a bow you are going to struggle which is a royal shame but how do you know they are expecting high damage?

Maybe they are merely enjoying that play style and are having fun with the game doing just that?

That is precisely why some of my characters have bows as a main weapon. Moreover, if there are 20 people camping a dolmen you don't need to do more than light attacks.

I wouldn't dream of setting myself up as a group player in dungeons/trials etc with my builds generally, but that sort of content is of no interest to me. This topic provides a good illustration of one reason why so many MMO players these days stick to solo/co-operative play.

Pallio · February 2017

Bow build can do 15k dps I guess, sure we would all love to have some 50k magic dps drop in our pug, but, that rarely ever happens. Solid elite high dps have all the BiS gear and are no longer running daily pledges, people building up their gear are though. If my pug dps can break 15k I consider myself lucky.

JinMori · February 2017

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

compared to dw? no, not even close, bow is an excellent back bar, but not good for front

@JinMori That's what I'm saying, but apparently they're completely viable in regards to other people's opinions and experiences for certain content. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with a difference of opinion, if backed by logic and reason. But as a whole, bows just aren't viable (overall) in PvE content as a main weapon/primary. They're fantastic for secondary use. Absolutely amazing. Maelstrom's Bow's Endless Hail is fantastic, as well as Poison Injection's DOT. In conjunction they work wonders together when paired together with other DOTs and damage laid down with other skills and say DW for an example. But as a main hand weapon, I can't see it. I just can't.

It's interesting that YOU keep saying this, even when others come in and say that they've had no problems using bow as a main. So perhaps it is just YOU that cannot perform well with bow as primary, perhaps you're too worried about scores and min/maxing to commit to the dedication it takes to become a master of the bow.

There are statistics, the statistics say that 0% of the top dps have bow as main bar, because it sucks at it, flurry is much stronger than snipe, it gives more spell and weapon damage, and the passives for dw are better. The fact is that min maxing is basically math, the build that is mathematically better is the build you wanna go with. End of story. facts cannot be changed by preference.

True. But you don't need to be min\maxed to do like 99% of content in this game.

99%? no not really, with that kind of setup you will probably struggle even with vet dungeons, you will never solo pvp with snipe, you will never complete vmsa, to be honest most people i saw using bow as main weapon can't go beyond 10 k dps, just like i haven't seen great dps with ww.

mvffins wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@casparian Ouch. If it's not the people who are the archers, it's the 2H Wrecking Blow guys. I have a video of this that I'd love to show you guys, but I'm worried I may have disciplinary actions taken upon me for naming and shaming. Even though I'd only like to use the video as an example of what NOT to do with a 2H in a PvE environment. Granted you shouldn't be using a 2H in PvE regardless, but I digress. People use what they want to.

No 2h or Bow in PvE? Lol so you just hate stamina builds I understand I do too.

2H Sucks in pve, bow is great for keeping up dots like poison injection and endless hail, 2 of the greatest dots in the game, butb bow doesn't have a good spammable, while dual wield, has more weapon and spell damage, an incredible spammable, flurry, and a good dot, rending slashes. this is why you have most setups running with dw on main bar and bow on back. Anything else is just not as good from a stamina dps prospective. And no amount of preference will change that.

Shyfty · February 2017

JinMori wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

compared to dw? no, not even close, bow is an excellent back bar, but not good for front

@JinMori That's what I'm saying, but apparently they're completely viable in regards to other people's opinions and experiences for certain content. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with a difference of opinion, if backed by logic and reason. But as a whole, bows just aren't viable (overall) in PvE content as a main weapon/primary. They're fantastic for secondary use. Absolutely amazing. Maelstrom's Bow's Endless Hail is fantastic, as well as Poison Injection's DOT. In conjunction they work wonders together when paired together with other DOTs and damage laid down with other skills and say DW for an example. But as a main hand weapon, I can't see it. I just can't.

It's interesting that YOU keep saying this, even when others come in and say that they've had no problems using bow as a main. So perhaps it is just YOU that cannot perform well with bow as primary, perhaps you're too worried about scores and min/maxing to commit to the dedication it takes to become a master of the bow.

There are statistics, the statistics say that 0% of the top dps have bow as main bar, because it sucks at it, flurry is much stronger than snipe, it gives more spell and weapon damage, and the passives for dw are better. The fact is that min maxing is basically math, the build that is mathematically better is the build you wanna go with. End of story. facts cannot be changed by preference.

True. But you don't need to be min\maxed to do like 99% of content in this game.

99%? no not really, with that kind of setup you will probably struggle even with vet dungeons, you will never solo pvp with snipe, you will never complete vmsa, to be honest most people i saw using bow as main weapon can't go beyond 10 k dps, just like i haven't seen great dps with ww.

mvffins wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

@casparian Ouch. If it's not the people who are the archers, it's the 2H Wrecking Blow guys. I have a video of this that I'd love to show you guys, but I'm worried I may have disciplinary actions taken upon me for naming and shaming. Even though I'd only like to use the video as an example of what NOT to do with a 2H in a PvE environment. Granted you shouldn't be using a 2H in PvE regardless, but I digress. People use what they want to.

No 2h or Bow in PvE? Lol so you just hate stamina builds I understand I do too.

2H Sucks in pve, bow is great for keeping up dots like poison injection and endless hail, 2 of the greatest dots in the game, butb bow doesn't have a good spammable, while dual wield, has more weapon and spell damage, an incredible spammable, flurry, and a good dot, rending slashes. this is why you have most setups running with dw on main bar and bow on back. Anything else is just not as good from a stamina dps prospective. And no amount of preference will change that.

If you'd read my previous post you can get well over 20k dps on a bow. I've had success solo in pvp with my bow build. Most Vet dungeons are easy with my bow. I've beaten vMSA on my bow. So I am not sure where you're getting these facts from.

sneakymitchell · February 2017

This game needs more varieties. Instead of this is the only set up to use for maximum DPS. This game needs more variations and also know what is ur pro and con of ur build.

technohic · February 2017

I get not wanting them for higher end group content, but Dolmens? F that. Those are pretty much just get hits in where you can. Who cares?

EldritchPenguin · February 2017

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

First off, the reason bows are so common at dolmens is because everything dies so quickly that you need to be spamming ranged attacks to get kill credit. Trying to run around finding things to melee is pointless, and almost all stamina builds use a bow back bar anyways.

That said, bow SHOULD be a solid choice as a main weapon for stamina builds, and the only thing holding it back is a proper spammable damage attack. Of course, if attack canceling/weaving was fixed, bow would be fine.

Imo they need to replace magnum shot, or at least one of its morphs, with an instant, full range direct damage attack that can be woven with light or medium attacks to contend with other options for damage. Bow has good dots with poison injection and endless hail, but snipe fails as a spammable.

Can you explain to me why it is a bow and arrow would be a main choice of weaponry for a stamina-oriented build, when you have: Axes, hammers, dual-wielded daggers and swords, and greatswords, and swords and shields? How does that even sound right? Lol. As a backup weapon? Sure. I can see that, and use a bow as my backup weapon of choice for stamina builds. But main weapon? Lol nope.

I met someone a few days ago saying the same thing at a WB with their double bow build. Know what happened? Lol. They kept light attacking the boss with poison injections here and there, and proceeded to get slapped silly. Lmao. I just watched knowing that I was correct, and how what they were attempting to do was futile. But still let them have at it. After getting brutally annihilated about a good 7 to 8 times, he cussed me out and proceeded with leaving. I then proceeded with solo'ing said boss, and collecting my loot. Poor fella. He doesn't get it.

Someone is obviously not well versed in just how deadly bows were on the medieval battlefield.

An axe is great, but good luck swinging it when you get shot full of arrows at fifty yards.

There's no reason a bow shouldn't work as a primary weapon, other than the fact that the bow skill tree lacks the ability for it.

If you are on the battlefield with only a fecking bow, you are a dead man, if I have an axe, I have a shield, I'm also running at you. There is a reason archers stand behind infantry you know! It's not a primary weapon.

Archers were deadly on battlefield due to Barrage, the main work was done by foot soldiers in melee combat.

The battle your thinking about where a few thousand longbow men destroyed armoured knights, was because the Longbow men were behind big walls and it would seem wrapping a french man in metal makes him stupid.

So no its a support weapon, not a primary unless your Robinhood.

Doesn't the tank in a dungeon group sufficiently fill the role that the footsoldiers would fill on a battlefield? Considering that, wouldn't it also be pretty reasonable to say that if one person could successfully engage a monster and keep it busy by themselves, then it would be a good idea to have another person with a bow filling the monster with arrows?

I'm just saying.

SodanTok · February 2017

If this many people complaining about other players using bow instead complained about how bow is underwhelming, maybe they wouldn't have to deal with people using underwhelming weapon so much.

Ranged stam DPS builds are here to stay, prevail and maybe even grow. Start offering ways to buff them or be damned to complain forever.

Moonscythe · February 2017

casparian wrote: »

Plenty of players out there convinced they're great because they beat Skyrim on Legendary.

Hey, I beat Skyrim on Legendary as a mage so I can say this with authority. That ain't nothin' special cause I am not a premo gamer, ya' know? I use a bow because I suck at melee but I prefer flinging fireballs. Don't worry though, I don't impose myself on anyone else nor do I keep chat open so I can't hear anyone disparaging my game play.

Have a nice day.

Subversus · February 2017

Yeah, buff bow builds! My gankblade would rejoice

Artis · February 2017

I love how two people pointed out that it's not only viable but is actually good here

casparian wrote: »

The problem isn't bow builds. Bow builds can be quite viable (like this or this). As your own post highlights, it's the Skyrimized bow gameplay that's the source of the problem.

And it's not limited to bow users, either. I tanked a PUG through Spindle II last night in which both DPS players did nothing but Wrecking Blow spam -> heavy attack spam -> Executioner spam the entire dungeon, and the healer refused to use any skills besides Luminous Shards and Breath of Life (he literally just stood still watching us in his Nordic Bather's Towel when he wasn't casting those). We only made it through because I put Dawnbreaker and a bow on my back bar instead of my regular tanking skills so we could do AOE damage.

Plenty of players out there convinced they're great because they beat Skyrim on Legendary.

and here

dday3six wrote: »

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/noss-bo-bo-stamblade-pve-guide/

Nos has been doing well with this build, and iirc has beat Vet Maelstrom with it before.

Generally I agree, but bow builds are sort of in the middle, and quite as low tier as hybrids for example.

But OP ignored them both and keeps crying. I think at this point it should be obvious to everyone that he's just a troll.

Nestor · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

I'm tired of going to a dolmen, and seeing no lie waves of people DPS dancing while using Bow light attacks.

There is a very good reason for this to be honest. You only have to tag the mob to get kill credit, along with the Exp. A bow is hands down the fastest weapon out there to tag as many dolmen mobs as possible. You can kind of do the same thing with a destro staff and Impulse, but that is not something most any stamina build is going to have. Plus, I run out of magic frequently doing my circle around the dolmen spam impulse thing.

Now, Bows need to be better, but I can do PvE pretty good with a Bow. It just takes different tactics, with a more deliberate approach to battle. YOLO and Bows do not mix well.

But, we could improve Bows and I would not complain.

Kram8ion · February 2017

No you don't sound like a pushy elitist jerk at all /

Continue

technohic · February 2017

Subversus wrote: »

Yeah, buff bow builds! My gankblade would rejoice

LOL Yeah. Pretty sure they need to make sure they don't just boost raw damage of heavy attack or snipe. It just needs a decent spammable rather than DOTs

Anti_Virus · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Guys, can we please just stop with the bow build nonsense? Please? I don't mean to come off as an elitist. I don't mean to come off as a jerk, nor am I trying to tell someone how to play their game (to a degree). But can we please stop with the bow builds in PvE? It's ridiculous.

I'm tired of going to a dolmen, and seeing no lie waves of people DPS dancing while using Bow light attacks. Or joining a random veteran dungeon via group finder to help lend a hand, only to come across another DPS with double bow or bow and 2H. Using the 2H only to heal, and resume casting bow skills and light attacks. It's silly at this point. Dolmen, world boss, dungeon, etc. It's like these dudes are everywhere! Stahp! :c

And what irks me even more...? Is when I try to explain to folks that it isn't that they're using a bow that's bad, as I use a bow on my backbar on stamina-based characters. But that they're building completely around the bow, and expecting high damage. No. It doesn't work that way. Endless Hail. Poison Injection. That's it. You're good. You don't need anymore bow skills. I promise. You're just taking up slots that could be used for better: Damage, sustain, and or utility.

This. Is. NOT. Skyrim. I love Skyrim. I think it's a wonderful game, in regards to it's: Combat system, lore, gear design, crafting system, interaction with the world, etc. Skyrim is great. Yes. An excellent game. But ESO is NOT Skyrim. Just because you can light attack and do all your trick shots in Skyrim to gain easy kills, does not mean it will work on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game. /EndRant

Edit: I just don't see why so many damn people gravitate toward bows/sniper-related weaponry for their main weapon choice, especially when looking at things for what they are. It's not just on ESO. It's on Overwatch too. As well as other games that a sniper is playable. "Ermagerd a sniper! I must pick them!" "OMG! A sniper rifle! Let me go and make use of this, even though it's completely impractical for the given situation and environment!" "What!? This game has a means of me to snipe!? Sorry guys, but I'm gonna go snipe. And don't try to tell me otherwise of how to play my game."

Why is it so popular to be an archer/bowman suddenly? On paper it doesn't even seem too logical, as at close range you're screwed. Ugh.

Tell Zos what archers have been TRYING to tell people and buff the bow! People Want to use a bow thats why we have skills like Snipe and Dmg passives.

Why should the only ranged option be magicka based.

Jemcrystal · February 2017

Builds! BUILDS! I don't need no stinking build when I am sexy!

anadandy · February 2017

BlackSparrow wrote: »

One of my alts is a bow build. Why? Because that's her character concept, simple as that. I have a lot of fun playing her, bouncing mobs all around inside a hail of arrows. I don't run her in dungeons or PvP, but for solo PvEing? She does just fine, and I have fun with the build. As far as I'm concerned, that's all that matters.

100% this. Plenty of people are glad to have a couple archers tagging a WB whittling him down - no one has ever complained to me.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · February 2017

JinMori wrote: »

Anything else is just not as good from a stamina dps prospective. And no amount of preference will change that.

Maybe this is where the confusion in this thread comes from. No one in this thread is saying that it is as good as other options. They are saying they do fine in pvp with it. They do fine in vet dungeons with it. They beat vmsa with it.

So in a thread about it being viable? Yes it is viable. Is it the best? No. But I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that it is.

aubrey.baconb16_ESO · February 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Guys, can we please just stop with the bow build nonsense? Please? I don't mean to come off as an elitist. I don't mean to come off as a jerk, nor am I trying to tell someone how to play their game .

Yes you are.

Therwind · February 2017

Venom shot has been completely broken (Xbox) since they messed with AC. It does not fire regardless of what you're doing. Sometimes it takes 4 or 5 times to actually work. This is devastating.

Thought I'd start throwing this out there since no one seems to care.

ItsGlaive · February 2017

What I wouldn't give for decent bow mechanics in this game...however the kind of bow I enjoy (yes Skyrim) is not viable here because every other weapon also needs flashiness for players to feel content, thus bow must also have it and be balanced around it.

jaye63 · February 2017

Are you stoned? Arent available? You even ESO bro?

Darkonflare15 · February 2017

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Guys, can we please just stop with the bow build nonsense? Please? I don't mean to come off as an elitist. I don't mean to come off as a jerk, nor am I trying to tell someone how to play their game (to a degree). But can we please stop with the bow builds in PvE? It's ridiculous.

I'm tired of going to a dolmen, and seeing no lie waves of people DPS dancing while using Bow light attacks. Or joining a random veteran dungeon via group finder to help lend a hand, only to come across another DPS with double bow or bow and 2H. Using the 2H only to heal, and resume casting bow skills and light attacks. It's silly at this point. Dolmen, world boss, dungeon, etc. It's like these dudes are everywhere! Stahp! :c

And what irks me even more...? Is when I try to explain to folks that it isn't that they're using a bow that's bad, as I use a bow on my backbar on stamina-based characters. But that they're building completely around the bow, and expecting high damage. No. It doesn't work that way. Endless Hail. Poison Injection. That's it. You're good. You don't need anymore bow skills. I promise. You're just taking up slots that could be used for better: Damage, sustain, and or utility.

This. Is. NOT. Skyrim. I love Skyrim. I think it's a wonderful game, in regards to it's: Combat system, lore, gear design, crafting system, interaction with the world, etc. Skyrim is great. Yes. An excellent game. But ESO is NOT Skyrim. Just because you can light attack and do all your trick shots in Skyrim to gain easy kills, does not mean it will work on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game. /EndRant

Edit: I just don't see why so many damn people gravitate toward bows/sniper-related weaponry for their main weapon choice, especially when looking at things for what they are. It's not just on ESO. It's on Overwatch too. As well as other games that a sniper is playable. "Ermagerd a sniper! I must pick them!" "OMG! A sniper rifle! Let me go and make use of this, even though it's completely impractical for the given situation and environment!" "What!? This game has a means of me to snipe!? Sorry guys, but I'm gonna go snipe. And don't try to tell me otherwise of how to play my game."

Why is it so popular to be an archer/bowman suddenly? On paper it doesn't even seem too logical, as at close range you're screwed. Ugh.

Tell Zos what archers have been TRYING to tell people and buff the bow! People Want to use a bow thats why we have skills like Snipe and Dmg passives.

Why should the only ranged option be magicka based.

But they have buff hawk eye passive time from 4 sec to 5 sec and added two more stacks to it. Now instead of stacking to 15% more damage you now get up to 25% more damage. So as long as keep your stacks up.

Gedalya · February 2017

Turelus wrote: »

I'm not sure you can get this community to all agree on anything, ever.

Would be nice for bows to get some love again, although maybe not enough love to bring back the age of snipe spam.

I disagree.

hydrocynus · February 2017

Why can't I tank with a bow? Ice mages get all the fun and my stick is just as strong as theirs and is even curvy like a shield. Where's the love? Bring back bow tanking!