Well something I thought would never happen, happened.

nimander99 · February 2017

I'll start this off with a positive: I've always been a collector of stuff in this game, I've been here playing since the beginning. When we went B2P I continued my sub and enjoyed the Crown Store cosmetics and never once let a costume/mount/pet/assistant etc. go by w/o purchasing it. I also am an achievement hunter so I earned all the in game cosmetic items right along side the Crown Store items. I never bought any of the food and potions and other non necessary stuff because its all craftable.

The addition of Sub Crafting Bags was a nice touch, a much needed touch, allowing me to collect more gear sets. What's the point of having a bank if I cant store gear in it? Great addition.

With the addition of Crown Crates I dumped a couple hundred dollars into initially just to get hands on experience with the system itself, I was pretty let down... Although I honestly expected as much, so Crown Crates are the first time I've allowed cosmetics to pass me by. At first I'd look at them and be bummed, thinking to myself 'Dang, stuff I'm never going to collect, such a shame'.

Surprisingly it turned out to be a blessing in disguise! It inured me to new cosmetics that are purchasable, so, for the first time since update 6 I'm letting cosmetics go by w/o buying them... And I feel nothing about it.

Now on to housing: I admit I haven't sunk much time into it, I was very excited for it so I purposefully didn't follow its progress on the PTS. I wanted to be surprised and explore the system with fresh eyes and no one else's opinion in the back of my mind. First, I'm blown away at the crown cost of even the most basic houses... And then the gold cost doesn't make sense, it's clearly smarter to save gold and buy a middling house than use crowns.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point or just rambling to get this off my chest. I understand this is a business they needs to make money to sustain itself but now we have Morrowind becoming a "Chapter" which means we can expect a "Chapter" a year, which isn't a big a deal, although it seems like the rules are being changed on us, such is life.

Its not that any of these things alone are bad, its when you add them all together that you realize 'Holy cow! This game is now 10x as expensive as was 6 months ago' and that's where I'm at now.

Its a major bummer, from an avid collector's stand point to now have pay walls, that in my book, are insurmountable... Just not willing to toss money at everything. And that, in effect, has killed my desire to spend money on anything. IDK what ZeniMax's strategy is here (besides the obvious) but I surely cant be the only collector that has come to this point.

I love this game, and I continue to play but I'm even considering letting my sub lapse for the first time due to the fact that I buy all DLC's outright and Chapter's seem to be negating its purpose.

I'll see you all in Tamriel, but I hope people at ZeniMax read their own forums, something needs to be done because all I see are more things being added not taken away, what my be a monetary breaking point for me now, may be for someone else down the line as new pay services are added.

Anyways, that's my 10, discuss or not, I needed to post something cathartic.

Kale38 · February 2017

preach brother.

WalkingLegacy · February 2017

I'm not sure the point of going expansion/chapter based other than another attempt for more cash grabbing. /Corporategreed

Will wait to see the quality of Morrowind in June to judge fully.

ADarklore · February 2017

nimander99 wrote: »

I'll start this off with a positive: I've always been a collector of stuff in this game, I've been here playing since the beginning. When we went B2P I continued my sub and enjoyed the Crown Store cosmetics and never once let a costume/mount/pet/assistant etc. go by w/o purchasing it. I also am an achievement hunter so I earned all the in game cosmetic items right along side the Crown Store items. I never bought any of the food and potions and other non necessary stuff because its all craftable.

The addition of Sub Crafting Bags was a nice touch, a much needed touch, allowing me to collect more gear sets. What's the point of having a bank if I cant store gear in it? Great addition.

With the addition of Crown Crates I dumped a couple hundred dollars into initially just to get hands on experience with the system itself, I was pretty let down... Although I honestly expected as much, so Crown Crates are the first time I've allowed cosmetics to pass me by. At first I'd look at them and be bummed, thinking to myself 'Dang, stuff I'm never going to collect, such a shame'.

Surprisingly it turned out to be a blessing in disguise! It inured me to new cosmetics that are purchasable, so, for the first time since update 6 I'm letting cosmetics go by w/o buying them... And I feel nothing about it.

Now on to housing: I admit I haven't sunk much time into it, I was very excited for it so I purposefully didn't follow its progress on the PTS. I wanted to be surprised and explore the system with fresh eyes and no one else's opinion in the back of my mind. First, I'm blown away at the crown cost of even the most basic houses... And then the gold cost doesn't make sense, it's clearly smarter to save gold and buy a middling house than use crowns.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point or just rambling to get this off my chest. I understand this is a business they needs to make money to sustain itself but now we have Morrowind becoming a "Chapter" which means we can expect a "Chapter" a year, which isn't a big a deal, although it seems like the rules are being changed on us, such is life.

Its not that any of these things alone are bad, its when you add them all together that you realize 'Holy cow! This game is now 10x as expensive as was 6 months ago' and that's where I'm at now.

Its a major bummer, from an avid collector's stand point to now have pay walls, that in my book, are insurmountable... Just not willing to toss money at everything. And that, in effect, has killed my desire to spend money on anything. IDK what ZeniMax's strategy is here (besides the obvious) but I surely cant be the only collector that has come to this point.

I love this game, and I continue to play but I'm even considering letting my sub lapse for the first time due to the fact that I buy all DLC's outright and Chapter's seem to be negating its purpose.

I'll see you all in Tamriel, but I hope people at ZeniMax read their own forums, something needs to be done because all I see are more things being added not taken away, what my be a monetary breaking point for me now, may be for someone else down the line as new pay services are added.

Anyways, that's my 10, discuss or not, I needed to post something cathartic.

You do realize that you are in the minority, right? That the overwhelming response by ESO+ members have been positive regarding 'chapters' and most don't mind spending an extra $60/year for a large expansion, new class, etc. So no, your post will not have any impact on ZOS' decisions, and as Matt Firor stated, they are constantly working on new ideas and changes to ESO, which includes its DLC release model.

Katahdin · February 2017

Anyone that expected a major expansion to be "DLC" and therefore free, was delusional.

They are not going to make it free for ESO+, period.

I've subbed from the beginning but I never expected a major expansion to be free, ever.

I agree that once you're max level on all your characters and have a max crafter, and you're not into housing (ESO+ gets double the amount of items you can place in a house), the crafting bag alone might not be enough for some to keep paying a sub. There will be future DLCS that will be included with ESO+.

If it's no longer worth it to you, cancel the sub.

Also why did you feel you had to buy/collect everything from the crown store? I don't have every mount, pet or costume and I have more than I can use on 12 characters as it is so having everything seems a bit rediculous IMO. I certainly wouldn't want every house.

I was very disappointed with the housing stuff at first because I saw what a grind it is. I was almost depressed. Then I decided that I just wasnt going to worry about it now and make it a long term project. I felt much better when I decided that. A lot less pressure. It's agame I play for fun, not to feel stressed out.

I haven't gotten any houses beyond the free one yet either. Mainly because so far there isn't any one that I like everything about it enough to buy it and I have nothing to put inside it yet. Also, I am waiting to see how much the cave will cost. Some people are rushing through decorating their houses, spending tons of gold or crowns. That's great if it makes them happy.

I'm just not in that big of a rush and I have other things I want to get done first.

TLDR....stop worrying about having everything and just do what you can/want to do. It's very liberating.

MissBizz · February 2017

For the most part, I absolutely entirely agree.

I too, would NEVER let a crown store item go by that I "maybe wanted". I tried crown crates, paid 5500 crowns for a pet pig (in my mind) and also realized the same thing. That elk? Before crown crates it would have been a quick decision (yes), afterwards though? Nah. I guess it's weird. I had a "gotta have it all (that I like)" mentality, and now that I can't, I realized there's a TON more stuff I now pass over.

I'm fine with charging for the expansion, expected it in any payment model.

Yes, this game is getting entirely more expensive than it used to be. I had this realization awhile ago. At launch, I expected to pay my sub. Last year I spent 3 times what was that first years expected yearly cost. This was last year too, meaning no housing, and no yearly expansion.

Really, depending on how much you play it's really still a cheap hobby, but wow it's gotten to be much more expensive.

jakeedmundson · February 2017

nimander99 wrote: »

1. never once let a costume/mount/pet/assistant etc. go by w/o purchasing it.

+

2. With the addition of Crown Crates I dumped a couple hundred dollars into initially just to get hands on experience with the system itself

=

3. First, I'm blown away at the crown cost of even the most basic houses... And then the gold cost doesn't make sense, it's clearly smarter to save gold and buy a middling house than use crowns.

Its not that any of these things alone are bad, its when you add them all together that you realize 'Holy cow! This game is now 10x as expensive as was 6 months ago' and that's where I'm at now.

They keep raising prices and pushing limits... because people actually pay for the crap in the crown store. Not just in this game... people, for whatever reason, think micro-transactions are worth it and they waste their money so that the company can have the EASIEST payday. $30 for a mount? nope.... $40 for a motif? nope.... $100 for a non functional in-game house? double nope.
If you sub... i understand using those crowns (it would be a waste not to) but anything after that... is an even bigger waste.

WaTeR-aBuSeR · February 2017

I used to be the same way. When I play a game, I want to collect everything and do everything. However with mmos, it has become impossible to achieve this unless you spend thousands of dollars. It just isn't worth it anymore so I no longer care about 100% completion. The game has gotten worst at the money grabbing and I'm someone who didn't expect a big expansion to be free either. The content from eso plus has been nothing for almost a year except for 2 dungeons. I knew when they came up with the model, it wouldn't last. No company can come up with dlc 4 times a year that has a decent amount of content. The value of crowns is also going down since subs get 1500 a month free. This was too high of a number and since they can't change it without pissing people off, they just started raising crown prices in the store. Honestly if they expect 4500 crowns for one mount that has no special effects , I won't be buying anything. This coming from someone who spent 25k crowns I had saved up on atro mounts. I liked those but the next pack looks like crap compared.

Unsent.Soul · February 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I'll start this off with a positive: I've always been a collector of stuff in this game, I've been here playing since the beginning. When we went B2P I continued my sub and enjoyed the Crown Store cosmetics and never once let a costume/mount/pet/assistant etc. go by w/o purchasing it. I also am an achievement hunter so I earned all the in game cosmetic items right along side the Crown Store items. I never bought any of the food and potions and other non necessary stuff because its all craftable.

The addition of Sub Crafting Bags was a nice touch, a much needed touch, allowing me to collect more gear sets. What's the point of having a bank if I cant store gear in it? Great addition.

With the addition of Crown Crates I dumped a couple hundred dollars into initially just to get hands on experience with the system itself, I was pretty let down... Although I honestly expected as much, so Crown Crates are the first time I've allowed cosmetics to pass me by. At first I'd look at them and be bummed, thinking to myself 'Dang, stuff I'm never going to collect, such a shame'.

Surprisingly it turned out to be a blessing in disguise! It inured me to new cosmetics that are purchasable, so, for the first time since update 6 I'm letting cosmetics go by w/o buying them... And I feel nothing about it.

Now on to housing: I admit I haven't sunk much time into it, I was very excited for it so I purposefully didn't follow its progress on the PTS. I wanted to be surprised and explore the system with fresh eyes and no one else's opinion in the back of my mind. First, I'm blown away at the crown cost of even the most basic houses... And then the gold cost doesn't make sense, it's clearly smarter to save gold and buy a middling house than use crowns.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point or just rambling to get this off my chest. I understand this is a business they needs to make money to sustain itself but now we have Morrowind becoming a "Chapter" which means we can expect a "Chapter" a year, which isn't a big a deal, although it seems like the rules are being changed on us, such is life.

Its not that any of these things alone are bad, its when you add them all together that you realize 'Holy cow! This game is now 10x as expensive as was 6 months ago' and that's where I'm at now.

Its a major bummer, from an avid collector's stand point to now have pay walls, that in my book, are insurmountable... Just not willing to toss money at everything. And that, in effect, has killed my desire to spend money on anything. IDK what ZeniMax's strategy is here (besides the obvious) but I surely cant be the only collector that has come to this point.

I love this game, and I continue to play but I'm even considering letting my sub lapse for the first time due to the fact that I buy all DLC's outright and Chapter's seem to be negating its purpose.

I'll see you all in Tamriel, but I hope people at ZeniMax read their own forums, something needs to be done because all I see are more things being added not taken away, what my be a monetary breaking point for me now, may be for someone else down the line as new pay services are added.

Anyways, that's my 10, discuss or not, I needed to post something cathartic.

You do realize that you are in the minority, right? That the overwhelming response by ESO+ members have been positive regarding 'chapters' and most don't mind spending an extra $60/year for a large expansion, new class, etc. So no, your post will not have any impact on ZOS' decisions, and as Matt Firor stated, they are constantly working on new ideas and changes to ESO, which includes its DLC release model.

Where is this overwhelming response from plus members? Are you getting your numbers here? So a minority of a minority? Let's face it, forums see a very small minority of players.

Positive? Have you been away lately? There hasn't been much positive response outside of the typical fan boys and nostalgia glasses wearing players who long for a trip back to morrowind from their past experience.

New ideas and changes? Sugar coating it a bit right? Have you any idea? Nothing being released in this chapter is new... maybe new ways to scrape out some more money from their fan base but all the content has been around since late 2013/ early 2014.

They just found a way to basically forget about plus members for 6 months and package the content together and call it a chapter.

Morrowind has what, 5 more hours of story vs orsinium?

Sorry, @OP and back to topic, I feel the same way. Hell I haven't played for a week. No drive anymore and housing is a huge grind fest to play the sims. I'm sure some enjoy it but I'll pass.

The developers finally broke the chains on my ESO addiction.

nimander99 · February 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I'll start this off with a positive: I've always been a collector of stuff in this game, I've been here playing since the beginning. When we went B2P I continued my sub and enjoyed the Crown Store cosmetics and never once let a costume/mount/pet/assistant etc. go by w/o purchasing it. I also am an achievement hunter so I earned all the in game cosmetic items right along side the Crown Store items. I never bought any of the food and potions and other non necessary stuff because its all craftable.

The addition of Sub Crafting Bags was a nice touch, a much needed touch, allowing me to collect more gear sets. What's the point of having a bank if I cant store gear in it? Great addition.

With the addition of Crown Crates I dumped a couple hundred dollars into initially just to get hands on experience with the system itself, I was pretty let down... Although I honestly expected as much, so Crown Crates are the first time I've allowed cosmetics to pass me by. At first I'd look at them and be bummed, thinking to myself 'Dang, stuff I'm never going to collect, such a shame'.

Surprisingly it turned out to be a blessing in disguise! It inured me to new cosmetics that are purchasable, so, for the first time since update 6 I'm letting cosmetics go by w/o buying them... And I feel nothing about it.

Now on to housing: I admit I haven't sunk much time into it, I was very excited for it so I purposefully didn't follow its progress on the PTS. I wanted to be surprised and explore the system with fresh eyes and no one else's opinion in the back of my mind. First, I'm blown away at the crown cost of even the most basic houses... And then the gold cost doesn't make sense, it's clearly smarter to save gold and buy a middling house than use crowns.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point or just rambling to get this off my chest. I understand this is a business they needs to make money to sustain itself but now we have Morrowind becoming a "Chapter" which means we can expect a "Chapter" a year, which isn't a big a deal, although it seems like the rules are being changed on us, such is life.

Its not that any of these things alone are bad, its when you add them all together that you realize 'Holy cow! This game is now 10x as expensive as was 6 months ago' and that's where I'm at now.

Its a major bummer, from an avid collector's stand point to now have pay walls, that in my book, are insurmountable... Just not willing to toss money at everything. And that, in effect, has killed my desire to spend money on anything. IDK what ZeniMax's strategy is here (besides the obvious) but I surely cant be the only collector that has come to this point.

I love this game, and I continue to play but I'm even considering letting my sub lapse for the first time due to the fact that I buy all DLC's outright and Chapter's seem to be negating its purpose.

I'll see you all in Tamriel, but I hope people at ZeniMax read their own forums, something needs to be done because all I see are more things being added not taken away, what my be a monetary breaking point for me now, may be for someone else down the line as new pay services are added.

Anyways, that's my 10, discuss or not, I needed to post something cathartic.

You do realize that you are in the minority, right? That the overwhelming response by ESO+ members have been positive regarding 'chapters' and most don't mind spending an extra $60/year for a large expansion, new class, etc. So no, your post will not have any impact on ZOS' decisions, and as Matt Firor stated, they are constantly working on new ideas and changes to ESO, which includes its DLC release model.

I didn't say I was against "Chapters" in fact, I actually like the idea. I will buy Morrowind outright like I have done for every DLC. Its adding that with everything else that just continues the vampirism of $. And again, I am a realist, I run a business of my own so I understand the need to generate revenue. Its just that, if we rewound time and implemented this before Orsinium I bet it would have been considered a "Chapter.

And I do enjoy ESO +, but since I buy DLC's outright and now "Chapter's" are coming I may opt out, I'm on the fence.

Katahdin wrote: »

Anyone that expected a major expansion to be "DLC" and therefore free, was delusional.

They are not going to make it free for ESO+, period.

I've subbed from the beginning but I never expected a major expansion to be free, ever.

I agree that once you're max level on all your characters and have a max crafter, and you're not into housing (ESO+ gets double the amount of items you can place in a house), the crafting bag alone might not be enough for some to keep paying a sub. There will be future DLCS that will be included with ESO+.

If it's no longer worth it to you, cancel the sub.

Also why did you feel you had to buy/collect everything from the crown store? I don't have every mount, pet or costume and I have more than I can use on 12 characters as it is so having everything seems a bit rediculous IMO. I certainly wouldn't want every house.

I was very disappointed with the housing stuff at first because I saw what a grind it is. I was almost depressed. Then I decided that I just wasnt going to worry about it now and make it a long term project. I felt much better when I decided that. A lot less pressure. It's agame I play for fun, not to feel stressed out.

I haven't gotten any houses beyond the free one yet either. Mainly because so far there isn't any one that I like everything about it enough to buy it and I have nothing to put inside it yet. Also, I am waiting to see how much the cave will cost. Some people are rushing through decorating their houses, spending tons of gold or crowns. That's great if it makes them happy.

I'm just not in that big of a rush and I have other things I want to get done first.

TLDR....stop worrying about having everything and just do what you can/want to do. It's very liberating.

I enjoy collecting, I didn't need to buy everything, I wanted to participate and support a system of commerce I felt was fair. I know I'm in the minority on that, but hey, don't begrudge me my hobby

tonemd · February 2017

Well, don't get me wrong, the whole 'DLC included except...' is a garbage move, but I still like the game and so I still sub. For me to unsub means I am done with this game.

So after 3 years you have to BUY an"expansion. If the next expansion, "chapter", whatever comes after another 2 or 3 years and in between that time you still get DLC content, I don't really have a problem.

If the next major DLC is also a "chapter" that has to be paid for, according to the TOS the only thing you can do is quit and I will probably choose that option.

BTW Hopefully some EU players have laws that can invalidate many of the TOS provisions. That thing basically says Zenimax doesn't have to provide you any product, ever.

essi2 · February 2017

MissBizz wrote: »

For the most part, I absolutely entirely agree.

I tried crown crates, paid 5500 crowns for a pet pig (in my mind)

It's a pretty nice pig though

Yolokin_Swagonborn · February 2017

I agree with the way OP is feeling about the subscription model. Recent events (crown crates, rising crown costs) have stripped a lot of value from being a subscriber and Morrowind (essentially a very large DLC) being sold outside of the subscription model is a final straw for some. Allow me to explain:

Morrowind is about twice the size (in landmass) of previous DLCs and about 1.5x as long of a storyline as wrothgar (30hrs vs 20). So its about the size two wrothgars. People would't mind paying twice the price in crowns (6000 vs 3000) for Morrowind and subscribers wouldn't mind waiting two quarters (with no DLC) for its release instead of the usual 4 DLCs per year they were expecting because that's what they were told to expect.

But for subscribers, it stings a little bit that ZOS is changing their business model again, (and not really admitting they have changed anything) while also playing fast and loose with the definition of DLC vs "chapter." If you compare the substantial difference between morrowind and previous expansions like wrothgar, they look pretty similar. Both add landmass and new gameplay styles (like Maelstrom, trials, etc) and only differ in size so the semantics argument of "Expansion vs DLC" isn't that compelling. Also, the warden isn't completely new, it was a class cut out of early beta in 2013.

So it feels to a lot of subscribers that something they already pay for, (and helped develop) is being stripped out of the business model and sold back to them as something different (bundled with a few other things ZOS had lying around), when it really isn't that much different. Here is an example:

If I was a magazine company, and I sold you a yearly subscription that gave you 12 magazines per year at $40 per year, then for the next year, still charged $40 but only delivered 10 magazines, but also produced a double sized "Booklet" with a holographic cover that I sold separately for $20, you would feel a bit ripped off. Explaining that the "Booklet" isn't a magazine because its twice the size and has a fancy holographic cover wouldn't be a compelling explanation. Better I just admit I changed the business model and selling 12 magazines for $40 just didn't cut it for me so I would rather you pay $60 per year for the same amount of content just bundled differently.

Most subscribers are diehard fans of this game and would appreciate the honesty and gladly shell out the extra money for Morrowind if ZOS just admitted they made a mistake and need to change the model again. But instead, they pretend nothing has changed and we are given semantic word acrobatics and an unnecessary physical release of morrowind complete with a silly statue just to dance around the fact that this is really a DLC which literally means "Downloadable Content."

Back when "Tamriel Unlimited" Launched, Pete Hines said something to the effect of "Just subscribe and you won't EVER have to worry about purchasing new content. Subscriber's will be taken care of." If you don't believe me, you can watch it HERE. That's what subscribers were expecting for the foreseeable future (see the title of this post) so it is no surprise people are a little upset.

Now lets get some pre-emptive arguments out of the way:

Yes, ZOS can change their mind or business model at any time. They are not legally obligated to deliver anything they promise and yes, they have to do what they have to do to funnel as much money as possible to the stakeholders.
Yes, other MMOs do offer DLC and charge extra for expansions but the expansions are usually so much bigger and game changing than morrowind will be and usually continue the main storyline which AFAIK, morrowind will not.

The issue that many subscribers have is three fold.

ZOS isn't admitting (in a straightforward way) that they changed their business model again, and they are breaking their promise to subscribers (of delivering 4 DLCs per quarter) and pulling Morrowind out of that subscription model by using a semantic technicality.
ZOS isn't admitting that the Value of a subscription is decreasing as they have changed from 4 DLCs/quarter to 3DLCs and 1 "bigger DLC you have to buy separately" per year.
Also the cost of items in the crown store (motifs) and mounts have kept creeping up although ZOS has said originally, (when Tamriel Unlimited came out) that subscribers would have more than enough of a crown stipend to fully enjoy the crown store. On top of that, there are now exclusive items you cant even get with crowns unless you gamble, which is just more price creep.

TL;DR: The bottom line is that the value of being a subscriber was slowly decreasing and Morrowind being published somewhat arbitrarily outside of the subscription model is a final straw for some that is getting them to re-evaluate the benefits of subscribing.

Just remember that ESO subscription money helped fund the Morrowind DLC.

idk · February 2017

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I'm not sure the point of going expansion/chapter based other than another attempt for more cash grabbing. /Corporategreed

Will wait to see the quality of Morrowind in June to judge fully.

What some call corporate greed is the same thing that alows them to be Abel to pay to play this game, pays to keep the roof over their heads, puts food on their tables.

Odd how things are so different from the other side.

nvyr · February 2017

You are not in a minority. Many are frustrated with the o'l bait and switch, myself included. If the prices or the crown store items were a little more reasonable I would probably buy a few items.
I am at the point where I think I will cancel my sub soon as like you I don't see a benefit other than the crafting bag anymore. If they would just put aside the greed and a little more effort into fixing issues that have gone on for the longest time, I probably wouldn't be looking forward to Ghost Recon Wildlands.

Ashtaris · February 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

You do realize that you are in the minority, right? That the overwhelming response by ESO+ members have been positive regarding 'chapters' and most don't mind spending an extra $60/year for a large expansion, new class, etc. So no, your post will not have any impact on ZOS' decisions, and as Matt Firor stated, they are constantly working on new ideas and changes to ESO, which includes its DLC release model.

And you base this statement on what statistic or poll? I know as a ESO subscriber, I wasn't exactly happy they changed the business model yet again.

MissBizz · February 2017

tonemd wrote: »

Well, don't get me wrong, the whole 'DLC included except...' is a garbage move, but I still like the game and so I still sub. For me to unsub means I am done with this game.

So after 3 years you have to BUY an"expansion. If the next expansion, "chapter", whatever comes after another 2 or 3 years and in between that time you still get DLC content, I don't really have a problem.

If the next major DLC is also a "chapter" that has to be paid for, according to the TOS the only thing you can do is quit and I will probably choose that option.

BTW Hopefully some EU players have laws that can invalidate many of the TOS provisions. That thing basically says Zenimax doesn't have to provide you any product, ever.

@tonemd They actually stated in the road ahead or whatever that there will be a new "Chapter" Q2 of every year. So every year there will be a paid expansion. Q1 and Q4 will be "content" DLC's, and Q3 will be a "dungeon" DLC.

essi2 wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

For the most part, I absolutely entirely agree.

I tried crown crates, paid 5500 crowns for a pet pig (in my mind)

It's a pretty nice pig though

It's the most beautiful pig ever.

Unsent.Soul · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I'm not sure the point of going expansion/chapter based other than another attempt for more cash grabbing. /Corporategreed

Will wait to see the quality of Morrowind in June to judge fully.

What some call corporate greed is the same thing that alows them to be Abel to pay to play this game, pays to keep the roof over their heads, puts food on their tables.

Odd how things are so different from the other side.

Lol not sure if serious or.... nah, you're serious.

tonemd · February 2017

MissBizz wrote: »

tonemd wrote: »

Well, don't get me wrong, the whole 'DLC included except...' is a garbage move, but I still like the game and so I still sub. For me to unsub means I am done with this game.

So after 3 years you have to BUY an"expansion. If the next expansion, "chapter", whatever comes after another 2 or 3 years and in between that time you still get DLC content, I don't really have a problem.

If the next major DLC is also a "chapter" that has to be paid for, according to the TOS the only thing you can do is quit and I will probably choose that option.

BTW Hopefully some EU players have laws that can invalidate many of the TOS provisions. That thing basically says Zenimax doesn't have to provide you any product, ever.

@tonemd They actually stated in the road ahead or whatever that there will be a new "Chapter" Q2 of every year. So every year there will be a paid expansion. Q1 and Q4 will be "content" DLC's, and Q3 will be a "dungeon" DLC.

essi2 wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

For the most part, I absolutely entirely agree.

I tried crown crates, paid 5500 crowns for a pet pig (in my mind)

It's a pretty nice pig though

It's the most beautiful pig ever.

Ah. Well. Hopefully CU is good.

G0ku · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

I agree with the way OP is feeling about the subscription model. Recent events (crown crates, rising crown costs) have stripped a lot of value from being a subscriber and Morrowind (essentially a very large DLC) being sold outside of the subscription model is a final straw for some. Allow me to explain:

Morrowind is about twice the size (in landmass) of previous DLCs and about 1.5x as long of a storyline as wrothgar (30hrs vs 20). So its about the size two wrothgars. People would't mind paying twice the price in crowns (6000 vs 3000) for Morrowind and subscribers wouldn't mind waiting two quarters (with no DLC) for its release instead of the usual 4 DLCs per year they were expecting because that's what they were told to expect.

But for subscribers, it stings a little bit that ZOS is changing their business model again, (and not really admitting they have changed anything) while also playing fast and loose with the definition of DLC vs "chapter." If you compare the substantial difference between morrowind and previous expansions like wrothgar, they look pretty similar. Both add landmass and new gameplay styles (like Maelstrom, trials, etc) and only differ in size so the semantics argument of "Expansion vs DLC" isn't that compelling. Also, the warden isn't completely new, it was a class cut out of early beta.

So it feels to a lot of subscribers that something they already pay for, (and helped develop) is being stripped out of the business model and sold back to them as something different, when it really isn't. Here is an example:

If I was a magazine company, and I sold you a yearly subscription that gave you 12 magazines per year at $40 per year, then for the next year, still charged $40 but only delivered 10 magazines, but also produced a double sized "Booklet" with a holographic cover that I sold separately for $20, you would feel a bit ripped off. Explaining that the "Booklet" isn't a magazine because its twice the size and has a fancy holographic cover wouldn't be a compelling explanation. Better I just admit I changed the business model and selling 12 magazines for $40 just didn't cut it for me so I would rather you pay $60 per year for the same amount of content just bundled differently. Most subscribers are diehard fans of this game and would appreciate the honesty over the semantic word acrobatics.

Back when "Tamriel Unlimited" Launched, Pete Hines said something to the effect of "Just subscribe and you won't EVER have to worry about purchasing new content. Subscriber's will be taken care of." If you don't believe me, you can watch it HERE. That's what subscribers were expecting for the foreseeable future (see the title of this post) so it is no surprise people are a little upset.

Now lets get some pre-emptive arguments out of the way:
Yes, ZOS can change their mind or business model at any time. They are not legally obligated to deliver anything they promise and yes, they have to do what they have to do to funnel as much money as possible to the stakeholders.

Yes, other MMOs do offer DLC and charge extra for expansions but the expansions are usually so much bigger and game changing than morrowind will be and usually continue the main storyline which AFAIK, morrowind will not.

The issue that many subscribers have is three fold.
ZOS isn't admitting (in a straightforward way) that they changed their business model again, and they are breaking their promise to subscribers (of delivering 4 DLCs per quarter) and pulling Morrowind out of that subscription model by using a semantic technicality.

ZOS isn't admitting that the Value of a subscription is decreasing as they have changed from 4 DLCs/quarter to 3DLCs and 1 "bigger DLC you have to buy separately" per year.

Also the cost of items in the crown store (motifs) and mounts have kept creeping up although ZOS has said originally, (when Tamriel Unlimited came out) that subscribers would have more than enough of a crown stipend to fully enjoy the crown store. On top of that, there are now exclusive items you cant even get with crowns unless you gamble, which is just more price creep.

TL;DR: The bottom line is that the value of being a subscriber was slowly decreasing and Morrowind being published somewhat arbitrarily outside of the subscription model is a final straw for some that is getting them to re-evaluate the benefits of subscribing.

Just remember that ESO subscription money helped fund the Morrowind DLC.

You got an awesome for that. I admire that you take the time to describe precisely what is going and went wrong the way ZOS handles its promises in business.

They only can afford to do so because they got the huge brand of elder scrolls in their back and can do to their die hard fans whatever they want, they will buy nevertheless.
They will tear us a 2nd ***hole until the next single player part is published and people will praise them for being f***** over again and again.

Worst thing for me is that it seems they think people are completely *** while they just endure this behaviour because they love the Elder Scrolls.

WalkingLegacy · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I'm not sure the point of going expansion/chapter based other than another attempt for more cash grabbing. /Corporategreed

Will wait to see the quality of Morrowind in June to judge fully.

What some call corporate greed is the same thing that alows them to be Abel to pay to play this game, pays to keep the roof over their heads, puts food on their tables.

Odd how things are so different from the other side.

I sub when I play. What's your point?

Are you saying that ESO is barely scraping by? That we should all feel bad for the team because they barely have roofs over their heads, are eating at food banks? Zenimax isn't profitable? O

What's your point? Or you saying Pete Hines needs to keep paying his million dollar bonuses?

nimander99 · February 2017

Some very good points made so far. People are articulating what its my head better than I can, thanks for the constructive responses y'all.

Zinaroth · February 2017

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I'll start this off with a positive: I've always been a collector of stuff in this game, I've been here playing since the beginning. When we went B2P I continued my sub and enjoyed the Crown Store cosmetics and never once let a costume/mount/pet/assistant etc. go by w/o purchasing it. I also am an achievement hunter so I earned all the in game cosmetic items right along side the Crown Store items. I never bought any of the food and potions and other non necessary stuff because its all craftable.

The addition of Sub Crafting Bags was a nice touch, a much needed touch, allowing me to collect more gear sets. What's the point of having a bank if I cant store gear in it? Great addition.

With the addition of Crown Crates I dumped a couple hundred dollars into initially just to get hands on experience with the system itself, I was pretty let down... Although I honestly expected as much, so Crown Crates are the first time I've allowed cosmetics to pass me by. At first I'd look at them and be bummed, thinking to myself 'Dang, stuff I'm never going to collect, such a shame'.

Surprisingly it turned out to be a blessing in disguise! It inured me to new cosmetics that are purchasable, so, for the first time since update 6 I'm letting cosmetics go by w/o buying them... And I feel nothing about it.

Now on to housing: I admit I haven't sunk much time into it, I was very excited for it so I purposefully didn't follow its progress on the PTS. I wanted to be surprised and explore the system with fresh eyes and no one else's opinion in the back of my mind. First, I'm blown away at the crown cost of even the most basic houses... And then the gold cost doesn't make sense, it's clearly smarter to save gold and buy a middling house than use crowns.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point or just rambling to get this off my chest. I understand this is a business they needs to make money to sustain itself but now we have Morrowind becoming a "Chapter" which means we can expect a "Chapter" a year, which isn't a big a deal, although it seems like the rules are being changed on us, such is life.

Its not that any of these things alone are bad, its when you add them all together that you realize 'Holy cow! This game is now 10x as expensive as was 6 months ago' and that's where I'm at now.

Its a major bummer, from an avid collector's stand point to now have pay walls, that in my book, are insurmountable... Just not willing to toss money at everything. And that, in effect, has killed my desire to spend money on anything. IDK what ZeniMax's strategy is here (besides the obvious) but I surely cant be the only collector that has come to this point.

I love this game, and I continue to play but I'm even considering letting my sub lapse for the first time due to the fact that I buy all DLC's outright and Chapter's seem to be negating its purpose.

I'll see you all in Tamriel, but I hope people at ZeniMax read their own forums, something needs to be done because all I see are more things being added not taken away, what my be a monetary breaking point for me now, may be for someone else down the line as new pay services are added.

Anyways, that's my 10, discuss or not, I needed to post something cathartic.

You do realize that you are in the minority, right? That the overwhelming response by ESO+ members have been positive regarding 'chapters' and most don't mind spending an extra $60/year for a large expansion, new class, etc. So no, your post will not have any impact on ZOS' decisions, and as Matt Firor stated, they are constantly working on new ideas and changes to ESO, which includes its DLC release model.

Positive? Have you been away lately? There hasn't been much positive response outside of the typical fan boys and nostalgia glasses wearing players who long for a trip back to morrowind from their past experience.

"I think the game sucks and if you disagree then you must be a fan boy or governed by nostalgia because I am right."

What a broad and interesting perspective. Thanks for enrichening our lives.

MasterSpatula · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I'm not sure the point of going expansion/chapter based other than another attempt for more cash grabbing. /Corporategreed

Will wait to see the quality of Morrowind in June to judge fully.

What some call corporate greed is the same thing that alows them to be Abel to pay to play this game, pays to keep the roof over their heads, puts food on their tables.

Odd how things are so different from the other side.

Nobody has a problem with ZOS being able to pay their staff and make their shareholders happy. Making a good or even excellent profit isn't corporate greed.

Charging people in a way that they begin to feel disrespected as customers, though, is different. Letting your pursuit of profit drive you to do things unwisely, that's corporate greed.

If, for example, I decide to take 3 months away from my subscription to pay for Morrowind, ZOS just flat-out lost $5. ($45 in sub lost, $40 in Chapter cost gained.) Already, changing from 4 paid DLC to 2 paid DLC per year puts a huge dent in the value of a sub, but if I go ahead and buy the existing DLC with my huge pile of unspent Crowns, the value of a sub to me goes down even more. My incentive to re-sub in Q3 2017 is lower. Perhaps I continue to buy DLC with accumulated Crowns for the rest of the time I remain a player, renewing the Sub when I run out of Crowns or just buying DLC as they are released.

Not saying that's what I'm going to do, but I'm saying that IF it's what I decide to do, ZOS takes what was basically money in the bank from me and loses it, all because they thought they had found a way to get more than $180/year out of me. In their attempt to make more off of me, they make less. That's the problem. Not the desire for profit, but desiring profit so blindly they cost themselves.

Darth_Apache · February 2017

I'm the type of ESO+ subscriber that picks and chooses the month I pay for. Since XB1 only has the monthly option; I can tell before the month is out if I am going to dedicate a moderate amount of time in ESO the next month.

For the past two months I have chosen to subscribe. The DLC access and Craft Bag are more than enough for me to keep subscribing.

I will also be purchasing the Morrowind expansion (digital collectors + digital base game(sick of the disc based game I have))

I feel like I am getting my money's worth without going nuts over the crown store. I save my crowns and use when I want.

Unsent.Soul · February 2017

Zinaroth wrote: »

Unsent.Soul wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I'll start this off with a positive: I've always been a collector of stuff in this game, I've been here playing since the beginning. When we went B2P I continued my sub and enjoyed the Crown Store cosmetics and never once let a costume/mount/pet/assistant etc. go by w/o purchasing it. I also am an achievement hunter so I earned all the in game cosmetic items right along side the Crown Store items. I never bought any of the food and potions and other non necessary stuff because its all craftable.

The addition of Sub Crafting Bags was a nice touch, a much needed touch, allowing me to collect more gear sets. What's the point of having a bank if I cant store gear in it? Great addition.

With the addition of Crown Crates I dumped a couple hundred dollars into initially just to get hands on experience with the system itself, I was pretty let down... Although I honestly expected as much, so Crown Crates are the first time I've allowed cosmetics to pass me by. At first I'd look at them and be bummed, thinking to myself 'Dang, stuff I'm never going to collect, such a shame'.

Surprisingly it turned out to be a blessing in disguise! It inured me to new cosmetics that are purchasable, so, for the first time since update 6 I'm letting cosmetics go by w/o buying them... And I feel nothing about it.

Now on to housing: I admit I haven't sunk much time into it, I was very excited for it so I purposefully didn't follow its progress on the PTS. I wanted to be surprised and explore the system with fresh eyes and no one else's opinion in the back of my mind. First, I'm blown away at the crown cost of even the most basic houses... And then the gold cost doesn't make sense, it's clearly smarter to save gold and buy a middling house than use crowns.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point or just rambling to get this off my chest. I understand this is a business they needs to make money to sustain itself but now we have Morrowind becoming a "Chapter" which means we can expect a "Chapter" a year, which isn't a big a deal, although it seems like the rules are being changed on us, such is life.

Its not that any of these things alone are bad, its when you add them all together that you realize 'Holy cow! This game is now 10x as expensive as was 6 months ago' and that's where I'm at now.

Its a major bummer, from an avid collector's stand point to now have pay walls, that in my book, are insurmountable... Just not willing to toss money at everything. And that, in effect, has killed my desire to spend money on anything. IDK what ZeniMax's strategy is here (besides the obvious) but I surely cant be the only collector that has come to this point.

I love this game, and I continue to play but I'm even considering letting my sub lapse for the first time due to the fact that I buy all DLC's outright and Chapter's seem to be negating its purpose.

I'll see you all in Tamriel, but I hope people at ZeniMax read their own forums, something needs to be done because all I see are more things being added not taken away, what my be a monetary breaking point for me now, may be for someone else down the line as new pay services are added.

Anyways, that's my 10, discuss or not, I needed to post something cathartic.

You do realize that you are in the minority, right? That the overwhelming response by ESO+ members have been positive regarding 'chapters' and most don't mind spending an extra $60/year for a large expansion, new class, etc. So no, your post will not have any impact on ZOS' decisions, and as Matt Firor stated, they are constantly working on new ideas and changes to ESO, which includes its DLC release model.

Positive? Have you been away lately? There hasn't been much positive response outside of the typical fan boys and nostalgia glasses wearing players who long for a trip back to morrowind from their past experience.

"I think the game sucks and if you disagree then you must be a fan boy or governed by nostalgia because I am right."

What a broad and interesting perspective. Thanks for enrichening our lives.

I see my points were missed... it's okay, we all can't hit the nail on the head every time

AoDD33pfri3d · February 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

I'll start this off with a positive: I've always been a collector of stuff in this game, I've been here playing since the beginning. When we went B2P I continued my sub and enjoyed the Crown Store cosmetics and never once let a costume/mount/pet/assistant etc. go by w/o purchasing it. I also am an achievement hunter so I earned all the in game cosmetic items right along side the Crown Store items. I never bought any of the food and potions and other non necessary stuff because its all craftable.

The addition of Sub Crafting Bags was a nice touch, a much needed touch, allowing me to collect more gear sets. What's the point of having a bank if I cant store gear in it? Great addition.

With the addition of Crown Crates I dumped a couple hundred dollars into initially just to get hands on experience with the system itself, I was pretty let down... Although I honestly expected as much, so Crown Crates are the first time I've allowed cosmetics to pass me by. At first I'd look at them and be bummed, thinking to myself 'Dang, stuff I'm never going to collect, such a shame'.

Surprisingly it turned out to be a blessing in disguise! It inured me to new cosmetics that are purchasable, so, for the first time since update 6 I'm letting cosmetics go by w/o buying them... And I feel nothing about it.

Now on to housing: I admit I haven't sunk much time into it, I was very excited for it so I purposefully didn't follow its progress on the PTS. I wanted to be surprised and explore the system with fresh eyes and no one else's opinion in the back of my mind. First, I'm blown away at the crown cost of even the most basic houses... And then the gold cost doesn't make sense, it's clearly smarter to save gold and buy a middling house than use crowns.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point or just rambling to get this off my chest. I understand this is a business they needs to make money to sustain itself but now we have Morrowind becoming a "Chapter" which means we can expect a "Chapter" a year, which isn't a big a deal, although it seems like the rules are being changed on us, such is life.

Its not that any of these things alone are bad, its when you add them all together that you realize 'Holy cow! This game is now 10x as expensive as was 6 months ago' and that's where I'm at now.

Its a major bummer, from an avid collector's stand point to now have pay walls, that in my book, are insurmountable... Just not willing to toss money at everything. And that, in effect, has killed my desire to spend money on anything. IDK what ZeniMax's strategy is here (besides the obvious) but I surely cant be the only collector that has come to this point.

I love this game, and I continue to play but I'm even considering letting my sub lapse for the first time due to the fact that I buy all DLC's outright and Chapter's seem to be negating its purpose.

I'll see you all in Tamriel, but I hope people at ZeniMax read their own forums, something needs to be done because all I see are more things being added not taken away, what my be a monetary breaking point for me now, may be for someone else down the line as new pay services are added.

Anyways, that's my 10, discuss or not, I needed to post something cathartic.

You do realize that you are in the minority, right? That the overwhelming response by ESO+ members have been positive regarding 'chapters' and most don't mind spending an extra $60/year for a large expansion, new class, etc. So no, your post will not have any impact on ZOS' decisions, and as Matt Firor stated, they are constantly working on new ideas and changes to ESO, which includes its DLC release model.

Morrowind is 40 not 60

nimander99 · February 2017

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I'm not sure the point of going expansion/chapter based other than another attempt for more cash grabbing. /Corporategreed

Will wait to see the quality of Morrowind in June to judge fully.

What some call corporate greed is the same thing that alows them to be Abel to pay to play this game, pays to keep the roof over their heads, puts food on their tables.

Odd how things are so different from the other side.

Nobody has a problem with ZOS being able to pay their staff and make their shareholders happy. Making a good or even excellent profit isn't corporate greed.

Charging people in a way that they begin to feel disrespected as customers, though, is different. Letting your pursuit of profit drive you to do things unwisely, that's corporate greed.

If, for example, I decide to take 3 months away from my subscription to pay for Morrowind, ZOS just flat-out lost $5. ($45 in sub lost, $40 in Chapter cost gained.) Already, changing from 4 paid DLC to 2 paid DLC per year puts a huge dent in the value of a sub, but if I go ahead and buy the existing DLC with my huge pile of unspent Crowns, the value of a sub to me goes down even more. My incentive to re-sub in Q3 2017 is lower. Perhaps I continue to buy DLC with accumulated Crowns for the rest of the time I remain a player, renewing the Sub when I run out of Crowns or just buying DLC as they are released.

Not saying that's what I'm going to do, but I'm saying that IF it's what I decide to do, ZOS takes what was basically money in the bank from me and loses it, all because they thought they had found a way to get more than $180/year out of me. In their attempt to make more off of me, they make less. That's the problem. Not the desire for profit, but desiring profit so blindly they cost themselves.

Yes exactly, it seems to me that moves being made from on high are about turning the game into a micro(macro) transaction hub.

I don't begrudge any business from making money off an excellent product that provides me years of enjoyment... But it just (and I don't like using this word cause its not quite right) feels like the only systems and additions we are getting are designed wholly to make me spend.

If the original business plan was build around 15$ a month per player then they are absolutely making way more now than they were with the original model. I think that ZeniMax needs to back off the aggressive in our face cash grab tactics that have been employed the last 6 months.

Like I said originally, I'm not being cheap, or petty, or whiny. This is really getting out of hand in my opinion. Who ever is calling the shots in marketing needs to chill, cause trading on nostalgia only lasts so long till the original base moves on and the game loses its core.

I don't want that to happen... But people are slowly, just disappearing from my guilds. They aren't saying anything in chat, no goodbyes, just dropping off, people I've been playing with since 2014. I know my experience is subjective only to myself but I cant be the only person noticing that... Toxic newbs are showing up and older players are just peetering away.

sevomd69 · February 2017

essi2 wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

For the most part, I absolutely entirely agree.

I tried crown crates, paid 5500 crowns for a pet pig (in my mind)

It's a pretty nice pig though

But... Can you filet it for some white meat?

MasterSpatula · February 2017

nimander99 wrote: »

Like I said originally, I'm not being cheap, or petty, or whiny.

Seiously, anyone who reads your original post and claims you're cheap is insane.

Korah_Eaglecry · February 2017

Katahdin wrote: »

Anyone that expected a major expansion to be "DLC" and therefore free, was delusional.

They are not going to make it free for ESO+, period.

I've subbed from the beginning but I never expected a major expansion to be free, ever.

I agree that once you're max level on all your characters and have a max crafter, and you're not into housing (ESO+ gets double the amount of items you can place in a house), the crafting bag alone might not be enough for some to keep paying a sub. There will be future DLCS that will be included with ESO+.

If it's no longer worth it to you, cancel the sub.

Also why did you feel you had to buy/collect everything from the crown store? I don't have every mount, pet or costume and I have more than I can use on 12 characters as it is so having everything seems a bit rediculous IMO. I certainly wouldn't want every house.

I was very disappointed with the housing stuff at first because I saw what a grind it is. I was almost depressed. Then I decided that I just wasnt going to worry about it now and make it a long term project. I felt much better when I decided that. A lot less pressure. It's agame I play for fun, not to feel stressed out.

I haven't gotten any houses beyond the free one yet either. Mainly because so far there isn't any one that I like everything about it enough to buy it and I have nothing to put inside it yet. Also, I am waiting to see how much the cave will cost. Some people are rushing through decorating their houses, spending tons of gold or crowns. That's great if it makes them happy.

I'm just not in that big of a rush and I have other things I want to get done first.

TLDR....stop worrying about having everything and just do what you can/want to do. It's very liberating.

Theres nothing free about DLC beyond the base game changes. One Tamriel is the only real free DLC and all it did was change the way the base game worked. Homestead is deeply intertwined with the Crown Store. Its far from free. IC, Orsinium, TG, DB and Shadows of the Hist were not and still are not free. If youre going to troll or try and play devils advocate. Atleast get your facts straight.