Current State of Heavy Armor

Doctordarkspawn · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Heavy Armor should be for Tanking, although stop nerfing the bugger for us PVE just because of PvPer.

Does a PVE tank need the damage though?

In PVP currently there is not much tradeoff if you choose heavy armor. You can have very high damage output, reasonable sustain and still get close to resistance cap.

@IcyDeadPeople the damage passive is for those who want to dps in HA. I think OP is missing something besides the obvious that the HA passives are not the issue.

When confronting an issue one needs to determine what the foundation of the problem is and this thread is not doing that. HA itself is not the issue.

This, I half agree with, half disagree with.

I agree with it because people -do- want to play tanky DPS, something this game absolutely hates on a fundemental level. It should be an option, considering it's an archetype at least one class is supposed to meet.

I disagree with it because the problem right now, is we lost a key passive for tanks for the -sake- of this damage that isn't giving the people who wanna DPS in HA, and isn't helping us. With the noose geting tightened around tanks necks, I think it's time for a HA rework. A offensive, and defensive passive set.

leepalmer95 · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Knightpanther wrote: »

Heavy Armor should be for Tanking, although stop nerfing the bugger for us PVE just because of PvPer.

Does a PVE tank need the damage though?

In PVP currently there is not much tradeoff if you choose heavy armor. You can have very high damage output, reasonable sustain and still get close to resistance cap.

@IcyDeadPeople the damage passive is for those who want to dps in HA. I think OP is missing something besides the obvious that the HA passives are not the issue.

When confronting an issue one needs to determine what the foundation of the problem is and this thread is not doing that. HA itself is not the issue.

Constitution is the issue, it leads into over performing skills like dark deal, but that passive is why you get stam sorc's running around in 5x heavy full dmg specs with 600 regen and having the best sustain in pvp.

Honestly maybe it should only give 930 (for 5x heavy) if your highest stat is stam and give half of that to your other stat.

E.g. 5x, heavy, 930 stam and 465 magicka if your a stam build, while the opposite is true if your magicka.

Builds like mag dk have to give up a lot of dmg in order to sustain and actually survive, builds like stam dk and stam sorc don't. The return from constitution is one of the problems why they can run around with base regen.

Edziu · February 2017

Wrecking_Blow_Spam wrote: »

Heres the defences:

Light - Shields, need stack max magic.

Medium - Roll dodge often combined with shuffle (get away from snares) but usually need good sustain/recovery in medium to pull this off.

Heavy - High resistances, healing recieved, can sacrifice most sustain due to constitution.

you forgot, heavy armor also have acess to shuffle so heavy armor have not only hight resistancess etc, heavy armor also have roll dodge chance like this medium armor...not to oftent but still can and not to rarely.

so now we have only a bit more stam recovery in medium armor and a bit often to use rolldodge in compare to heavy armor as defense....with this difference as I see nobody except nb with working cloak is able to use medium armor then like sorc with shieldstack to be able to use light armor

EIGHTS · February 2017

It's a joke and shame If a magicka build sorcerer can't wear light armor in Cyrodiil.
Heavy and medium armor are good enough.

LordTareq · February 2017

Biased poll. Imo heavy armour is underpowered for what it should do, which is protect the wearer. Just passively most players can negate most of your armour value.

Edziu · February 2017

LordTareq wrote: »

Biased poll. Imo heavy armour is underpowered for what it should do, which is protect the wearer. Just passively most players can negate most of your armour value.

5k armor reduction by debuff
5k with sharpened trait
4k from springang set (medium armor only so no armor to defense while wearing it or weapons, jewerly)
1.6k armor reduction from enchant which not be appliet 100% uptime, max 50% of time fight because cooldown
myabe around up to 5k stacked penetration from two fanged snake set whch is also in medium armor like springan and need to attacking nonstop to keep this 5k penetration, if not then springan is much better if not combined together

from 33k resists cap you can at all negate around 16k armor, I dont think about two fanged snake because it need so much grind in trials so its not for only pvp players

with 16k armor penetration you still have around 15k resist while medium/light armor wearers have no any armor against this.
atlest can reach to 20k armor penetration with this two fanged but then you need toi have then this medium armor which is just paper no armor in cyro, for hight penetration into heavy armored scrub you need to sacrriface all your armor then and be an glass cannon agains someone who will still have 10k+ armor

but at all not very much people are running in max penetration builds so how heavy armor is underpowered agains averge player who have arounr 10-15k armor penetration (under half of max resists in heavy armor) while with this 10k you just reducing all armor in light armor and almost all in medium, 15k penetration will reduce rest arrom in medium....while in heavy armor you will still have 15k+ resists

Chilla_Deluxe · February 2017

Heavy armor carries so many people nowadays.

Sharee · February 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Constitution is the issue, it leads into over performing skills like dark deal, but that passive is why you get stam sorc's running around in 5x heavy full dmg specs with 600 regen and having the best sustain in pvp.

That sounds more like a dark deal problem than a constitution problem to me.

Valencer · February 2017

Well, the homestead nerfs had almost no effect. Think there's even MORE heavy armour usage in Cyrodiil now.

But what can you expect when it's easy to have just as much damage and sustain potential while being so much more survivable, compared to light and medium.

Weesacs · February 2017

I used heavy armour for a while in PvP on my magicka templar and did fine against medium and light armour wearers however I felt that against heavy armour users - especially against Dizzying Swing spammers - I wasnt doing enough damage due to the lack of spell penetration.

So I went back to wearing light armour and I feel much better for it - I now do some decent damage against heavy armour users.

As long as I can break free quickly, swap to sword and shield when defending and pop an immovable / speed potion - I have a chance. Also if need be, I just do a few heavy attacks to replenish stamina.

In my opinion I dont think light is actually in a bad place and heavy is in a good place right now. Lastly, I think shuffle should be a 5-medium-piece-bonus and not be available to heavy armour users - buts thats for another discussion (being able to shuffle in heavy armour just seems wrong to me).

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · February 2017

Heavy armor passives need adjustment
2. Way more protection
Certain heavy armor sets need adjustment
2. Way more benifits
Light and/or medium passives need adjustment
2. Way more lower protection and releated benifites
Current state of heavy, light and medium is good
2. Fare from

Biro123 · February 2017

Edziu wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

Biased poll. Imo heavy armour is underpowered for what it should do, which is protect the wearer. Just passively most players can negate most of your armour value.

5k armor reduction by debuff
5k with sharpened trait
4k from springang set (medium armor only so no armor to defense while wearing it or weapons, jewerly)
1.6k armor reduction from enchant which not be appliet 100% uptime, max 50% of time fight because cooldown
myabe around up to 5k stacked penetration from two fanged snake set whch is also in medium armor like springan and need to attacking nonstop to keep this 5k penetration, if not then springan is much better if not combined together

from 33k resists cap you can at all negate around 16k armor, I dont think about two fanged snake because it need so much grind in trials so its not for only pvp players

with 16k armor penetration you still have around 15k resist while medium/light armor wearers have no any armor against this.
atlest can reach to 20k armor penetration with this two fanged but then you need toi have then this medium armor which is just paper no armor in cyro, for hight penetration into heavy armored scrub you need to sacrriface all your armor then and be an glass cannon agains someone who will still have 10k+ armor

but at all not very much people are running in max penetration builds so how heavy armor is underpowered agains averge player who have arounr 10-15k armor penetration (under half of max resists in heavy armor) while with this 10k you just reducing all armor in light armor and almost all in medium, 15k penetration will reduce rest arrom in medium....while in heavy armor you will still have 15k+ resists

No.

Just slapping on heavy armour does not give 33k resists. It gives 16k resists - which as you say can be totally negated relatively easily. Getting 33k resists means adding a lot more other stuff (which can be just as easily be added to light or med armour) .. Lets say we start with Major resolve/ward and defending trait - that's an extra 10k - making it 26k resists.. To get the other 7k means adding minor resolve/ward, some resists set bonuses, cp spend on resists... You can do ALL of this with light/med armour. The only difference at the end is about 3-4k resists.

But light/med users generally don't want to sacrifice the damage that is needed to do this... I see people complain about hvy armour resists yet unwilling to swap their sharpened weapon for defending....

TLDR; Heavy armour is just a SMALL part of a high-resist setup.

glavius · February 2017

Edziu wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

Biased poll. Imo heavy armour is underpowered for what it should do, which is protect the wearer. Just passively most players can negate most of your armour value.

5k armor reduction by debuff
5k with sharpened trait
4k from springang set (medium armor only so no armor to defense while wearing it or weapons, jewerly)
1.6k armor reduction from enchant which not be appliet 100% uptime, max 50% of time fight because cooldown
myabe around up to 5k stacked penetration from two fanged snake set whch is also in medium armor like springan and need to attacking nonstop to keep this 5k penetration, if not then springan is much better if not combined together

from 33k resists cap you can at all negate around 16k armor, I dont think about two fanged snake because it need so much grind in trials so its not for only pvp players

with 16k armor penetration you still have around 15k resist while medium/light armor wearers have no any armor against this.
atlest can reach to 20k armor penetration with this two fanged but then you need toi have then this medium armor which is just paper no armor in cyro, for hight penetration into heavy armored scrub you need to sacrriface all your armor then and be an glass cannon agains someone who will still have 10k+ armor

but at all not very much people are running in max penetration builds so how heavy armor is underpowered agains averge player who have arounr 10-15k armor penetration (under half of max resists in heavy armor) while with this 10k you just reducing all armor in light armor and almost all in medium, 15k penetration will reduce rest arrom in medium....while in heavy armor you will still have 15k+ resists

You're assuming the heavy armor user has a ton of gear pieces that give resists/armor, while the light/medium user has none. My nb with 5/sometimes 6 hvy rest medium has 22-23k armor, which is what most hvy armor wearers will have. No way a hvy armor user with 33k armor/resists will have any offense at all....

Biro123 · February 2017

Actually, I tend to think that the amounts that sharpened and defending give are too high.. Lowering both would make armour resists a larger part of your whole resist pool, and also reduce perhaps make other offensive traits desirable again.

tplink3r1 · February 2017

Edziu wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

Biased poll. Imo heavy armour is underpowered for what it should do, which is protect the wearer. Just passively most players can negate most of your armour value.

5k armor reduction by debuff
5k with sharpened trait
4k from springang set (medium armor only so no armor to defense while wearing it or weapons, jewerly)
1.6k armor reduction from enchant which not be appliet 100% uptime, max 50% of time fight because cooldown
myabe around up to 5k stacked penetration from two fanged snake set whch is also in medium armor like springan and need to attacking nonstop to keep this 5k penetration, if not then springan is much better if not combined together

from 33k resists cap you can at all negate around 16k armor, I dont think about two fanged snake because it need so much grind in trials so its not for only pvp players

with 16k armor penetration you still have around 15k resist while medium/light armor wearers have no any armor against this.
atlest can reach to 20k armor penetration with this two fanged but then you need toi have then this medium armor which is just paper no armor in cyro, for hight penetration into heavy armored scrub you need to sacrriface all your armor then and be an glass cannon agains someone who will still have 10k+ armor

but at all not very much people are running in max penetration builds so how heavy armor is underpowered agains averge player who have arounr 10-15k armor penetration (under half of max resists in heavy armor) while with this 10k you just reducing all armor in light armor and almost all in medium, 15k penetration will reduce rest arrom in medium....while in heavy armor you will still have 15k+ resists

5H 2M gives you only 15.5k resist

Edziu · February 2017

@Biro123 @glavius @tplink3r1

so now Im confused, can someone please explain me then why 80%+ of pvp population is running in this heavy armor and rest under 20% is running in both light and medium armor?\

if resists in heavy armor are not doing that high difference from light/medium in other buffs then I dot understand why everyone except mag sorcs and mostly NBs are running in heavy

Sounomi · February 2017

In relation to PvP, particularly large scale full raid on raid PvP, I think the heavy armor meta just shows that things need balancing. As someone that generally plays magicka builds, I've always found myself to be fine with light armor and the occasional shield to stay alive but ever since One Tamriel, I've started to feel that I need to join this meta too just to stay alive with how much easy to pull off, near impossible to avoid damage that has been added to the game. Particularly Eye of the Storm. Sure, one person using it is easy enough but half a raid all doing it at once while spamming other AoE skills as they run around with it up? Not so much.

Biro123 · February 2017

Edziu wrote: »

@Biro123 @glavius @tplink3r1

so now Im confused, can someone please explain me then why 80%+ of pvp population is running in this heavy armor and rest under 20% is running in both light and medium armor?\

if resists in heavy armor are not doing that high difference from light/medium in other buffs then I dot understand why everyone except mag sorcs and mostly NBs are running in heavy

Different reasons for different builds. Any block build is going to want to use heavy since its the main way to return stam while blocking. The 3-4k extra resists is a nice addition (since block-based defence is based all on mitigation - and any extra is good).
I'm experimenting with heavy on my magsorc at the mo. Its NOT for the resistances - its for stam-return from constitution so I can break-free and roll-dodge more often. It has 16k resists so has to still rely on damage shields for defence - but using heavy as opposed to light means losing out on (numbers from memory so may be wrong) 10% crit chance and 5k penetration from light armour passives which is a BIG hit to damage dealing capabilities. Also loses on cost reduction and mag-recov.. But it allows for different ways to recover magicka (buffed resto heavy attacks, constitution and dark exchange from regenerating stamina)..
If I wanted to rely on resistances for defence I'd have to do what I'd already mentioned.. use a defending staff (losing my only penetration in the process), slotting boundless storm for armour buffs (which means losing magelight and another 12% crit chance) and it's still only 26k.. And then to make the most of that I'd want to be blocking too - so ice staff (losing 8% dmg bonus from fire/lightning) and spending in block cost reduction instead of bastion and using a few block cost reduction jewels instead of spell-power... Basically becoming a tank instead of a DD. DD's whoi simply wear heavy aren't particularly tanky without making sacrifices.

glavius · February 2017

Edziu wrote: »

@Biro123 @glavius @tplink3r1

so now Im confused, can someone please explain me then why 80%+ of pvp population is running in this heavy armor and rest under 20% is running in both light and medium armor?\

if resists in heavy armor are not doing that high difference from light/medium in other buffs then I dot understand why everyone except mag sorcs and mostly NBs are running in heavy

The resists make a difference, but not 15k resist difference like you said. The difference is probably 6k compared to medium armor, which is a noticable chunk, probably around 9% mitigation. Now if you add the extra hp and healing, it all adds up.

I think a large part of the reason people run heavy in pvp, is 2 things: the constitution passive is very good, and with the current state of proc sets (even slightly nerfed with homestead), it still allows you to survive a few more proc hits compared to a medium/light armor user, or for large scale, a few more ticks from destro ult.

Edziu · February 2017

glavius wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

@Biro123 @glavius @tplink3r1

so now Im confused, can someone please explain me then why 80%+ of pvp population is running in this heavy armor and rest under 20% is running in both light and medium armor?\

if resists in heavy armor are not doing that high difference from light/medium in other buffs then I dot understand why everyone except mag sorcs and mostly NBs are running in heavy

The resists make a difference, but not 15k resist difference like you said. The difference is probably 6k compared to medium armor, which is a noticable chunk, probably around 9% mitigation. Now if you add the extra hp and healing, it all adds up.

I think a large part of the reason people run heavy in pvp, is 2 things: the constitution passive is very good, and with the current state of proc sets (even slightly nerfed with homestead), it still allows you to survive a few more proc hits compared to a medium/light armor user, or for large scale, a few more ticks from destro ult.

so again we are back to this...constitution is pretty fine...but proc sets....for pvp this nerf to them isnt to much noticable at all ehh and yes then..as it was in other threads those *** proc sets are ruining pvp and in chain reaction is heavy armor doing more unbalance and it just starting prom proc sets...no proc sets = no heavy armor meta than?

but if seriously proc sets are forcing people to wear heavy armor so people arnt wearing it for more resists to more defense from more damage from those procs?

olsborg · February 2017

Light and medium armor needs adjustments....upwards. And some of the heavy armor sets like ravager, seventh legion etc are way too extreme (strong)

tplink3r1 · February 2017

Edziu wrote: »

@Biro123 @glavius @tplink3r1

so now Im confused, can someone please explain me then why 80%+ of pvp population is running in this heavy armor and rest under 20% is running in both light and medium armor?\

if resists in heavy armor are not doing that high difference from light/medium in other buffs then I dot understand why everyone except mag sorcs and mostly NBs are running in heavy

Ask them.

Biro123 · February 2017

The extra health passive helps you survive proc burst too and the healing buff to recover from it. It does all add up to make you a bit more survivable - but it isn't just the resists from heavy alone that does it. That's a very small part.
I understand(just speculating - never really looked into it or tried it) that the really tanky builds seen in cyro utilise permablocking/block-cost reduction and plenty of healing/heal buffs to recover the damage they do take. The heavy armour passives are necessary for that.

Tavore1138 · February 2017

Edziu wrote: »

Entegre wrote: »

If heavy armor provides more defence and more offence then what is the benefit of using medium armor? Currently everyone wears heavy armor in PvP except for shield stackers, only a handful of us nightblades(gangers) still wear the medium armor but I am thinking of switching to heavy as well.

added something

A. I believe the word you wanted was probably 'gankers'?
B. Not all NBs play that style in PvP anyway.

I'd agree medium needs some bonuses that don't just rest on a single play style, stamina needs a bit of love from the armour that should be it's natural choice...

Edziu · February 2017

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Entegre wrote: »

If heavy armor provides more defence and more offence then what is the benefit of using medium armor? Currently everyone wears heavy armor in PvP except for shield stackers, only a handful of us nightblades(gangers) still wear the medium armor but I am thinking of switching to heavy as well.

added something

A. I believe the word you wanted was probably 'gankers'?
B. Not all NBs play that style in PvP anyway.

I'd agree medium needs some bonuses that don't just rest on a single play style, stamina needs a bit of love from the armour that should be it's natural choice...

yeah, you will dont see anyone other than stamblade ganker in medium armor, everyone other who are playing without cloak are just in heavy armor

Jamini · February 2017

Heavy Armor is terrible for actually dealing damage.

1. Your damage is trash-tier, even with the new version of Wrath. To the tune of several hundred free weapon damage and penetration.

2. Your Sustain is trash-tier, even with blackrose and desert rose. Without a sustain set like Lich a HA user will run out of stamina/magicka very quickly.

The only thing that allows a HA user to compete in PvP, and PvP alone, is that their burst in one or two combos can take an opponent down before they run dry on resources... or said user has sustain build into their class (Dark deal, or magicka regen on a DK's jewlery, or Siphoning Attacks. Mind, doing this means losing out on an additional ~300 WD/SD from enchants or penetration on their weapon)

Buffing light and medium would make heavy, which is still just barely viable and less than a third of the armors used in Cyrodiil (ZoS provided info on that recently. And they have the statistics to back it up) non-existant. Let's not even talk about outside of Cyrodiil, where heavy is only used for solo and by about 1/6 players (again, only the tank of a group. Which is 1 in 12 for trials, 1 in 6 for nMoL, and 1 in 4 for dungeons.).

technohic · February 2017

Jamini wrote: »

Heavy Armor is terrible for actually dealing damage.

1. Your damage is trash-tier, even with the new version of Wrath. To the tune of several hundred free weapon damage and penetration.

2. Your Sustain is trash-tier, even with blackrose and desert rose. Without a sustain set like Lich a HA user will run out of stamina/magicka very quickly.

The only thing that allows a HA user to compete in PvP, and PvP alone, is that their burst in one or two combos can take an opponent down before they run dry on resources... or said user has sustain build into their class (Dark deal, or magicka regen on a DK's jewlery, or Siphoning Attacks. Mind, doing this means losing out on an additional ~300 WD/SD from enchants or penetration on their weapon)

Buffing light and medium would make heavy, which is still just barely viable and less than a third of the armors used in Cyrodiil (ZoS provided info on that recently. And they have the statistics to back it up) non-existant. Let's not even talk about outside of Cyrodiil, where heavy is only used for solo and by about 1/6 players (again, only the tank of a group. Which is 1 in 12 for trials, 1 in 6 for nMoL, and 1 in 4 for dungeons.).

Most tanky heavy armor builds I know; use proc sets for damage since the procs are free and hit hard regardless of stats.

Lynx7386 · February 2017

Militan1404 wrote: »

Why Is heavy armor is just for tanking? Heavy armor dps is also a thing and it fit the lore to. Saying heavy is a tank its like saying light armor is a healer. light is the mage, its range dps and use damage sheild to protect them. Medium is the theif, its supossed to use stealth and finesse to survive and do some range with the bow and come in and do high damage up close before they quickly dissapear again. Heavy is the warrior, and is supossed to be up your face and and do damage while he use his heavy armor to stay alive. Light and medium aint supossed to stand face to face with a heavy armor, they have to use their strengt in range or stealth and agility to win their fights

Well said. All three should be capable of damage, just defending in different ways

GreenhaloX · February 2017

I love HA for its survivability and hp passive increase, and I have more confident in soloing world bosses or going through trials and vet dungeons with HA, versus wearing mediums. Healers, you're awesome.. but so many times, I find having to rely on my own hp regen abilities. Especially, when you get queued into a lowbie group. Ha ha. Yes, you get that passive 12% overall extra weapon damages and more stamina, but, oh man.. the hp and spell/physical resistance are crap with mediums. Yes, I can do much more damages and dps with mediums (because you get more stam), but I am also much more vulnerable. Now, I doubt it will ever happen, but imagine if HA also gets that weapon damage passive. Ha ha. That would be on my wishlist for improving HA.

Jamini · February 2017

technohic wrote: »

Most tanky heavy armor builds I know; use proc sets for damage since the procs are free and hit hard regardless of stats.

Most glass cannon medium armor builds I know use three proc sets combined with a high-damage burst skill to one-shot anyone not in heavy.

Heavy armor cannot do this.

Let's also not forget that most damage proc sets are not heavy armor. The most popular ones (Viper, Red Mountain, Widowmaker) are all medium. Heavy procs like Thunderbugs, Storm Knight's Plate, Defending Warrior all require that the user get hit first and are generally not used. (Though Thunderbug's is fun to use!)

Your issue is with Proc sets. Not Heavy Armor.