justice system is disempowering, unenjoyable

kratier · February 2017

i dont think the devs in charge of this system understand what makes stealth games fun
a lot of the aspects of the justice system are just disempowering
guards are unkillable, act as road blocks and just prevent the character from continuing with gameplay. they are invulnerable and nothing you can do as a player will stop them from being a road block.
most stealth games offer things, tools, instruments, powers that allow the player to manipulate road blocks like these and play with the situation, this game offers none of that. its very restrictive and disempowering, you as the player have no choice no option and there is nothing you can do.
i suggest the devs in charge of this system or any devs try and play some stealth games to see why they are fun and what makes them fun. right now your stealth aspect of gameplay is really bad.

i say justice system in general because this extends to guards in cities and towns. the fact they are just static , unkillable, god-like avatars administering justice is really bad for immersion purposes, for gameplay purposes, everything. nothing about this system fits in the game world or anything.
if i encounter a guard in a city, I want to be immersed in the experience. I dont want to be on the receiving end of an endless supply of CC attacks, and for that guard to be invulnerable, totally breaks the enjoyment of the game for me.

what i'd like to see is some sort of "chase" sequence , that games like Assassins Creed has, where you run away from the guards, hide, disguise or lose them in a crowd. you have the option to fight them but then they out number you

also my complaints of disempowering extend to the trap system as well, the fact it removes control of your character is disempowering. its just like a giant CC that takes you out from the gameplay and some of them are so obvious with giant blue floating fire, its just simply not a trap, but a giant glowing road block saying "you shall not pass" You can't do anything about it, you cant disarm them, and if you even go near them, you get immediately caught by any guards around and npcs run to the spot.

like whoever designed this stuff just doesn't understand game design 101, removing control from players = bad, disempowering player = bad, when player interaction is completely prohibited = bad. like i cant go on and on.

AzraelKrieg · February 2017

You're wanting systems that are implemented well in single player RPGs to be added into a ORPG? There is a good chance that would not work at all.

hmsdragonfly · February 2017

kratier wrote: »

i dont think the devs in charge of this system understand what makes stealth games fun
a lot of the aspects of the justice system are just disempowering
guards are unkillable, act as road blocks and just prevent the character from continuing with gameplay. they are invulnerable and nothing you can do as a player will stop them from being a road block.
most stealth games offer things, tools, instruments, powers that allow the player to manipulate road blocks like these and play with the situation, this game offers none of that. its very restrictive and disempowering, you as the player have no choice no option and there is nothing you can do.
i suggest the devs in charge of this system or any devs try and play some stealth games to see why they are fun and what makes them fun. right now your stealth aspect of gameplay is really bad.

i say justice system in general because this extends to guards in cities and towns. the fact they are just static , unkillable, god-like avatars administering justice is really bad for immersion purposes, for gameplay purposes, everything. nothing about this system fits in the game world or anything.
if i encounter a guard in a city, I want to be immersed in the experience. I dont want to be on the receiving end of an endless supply of CC attacks, and for that guard to be invulnerable, totally breaks the enjoyment of the game for me.

what i'd like to see is some sort of "chase" sequence , that games like Assassins Creed has, where you run away from the guards, hide, disguise or lose them in a crowd. you have the option to fight them but then they out number you

also my complaints of disempowering extend to the trap system as well, the fact it removes control of your character is disempowering. its just like a giant CC that takes you out from the gameplay and some of them are so obvious with giant blue floating fire, its just simply not a trap, but a giant glowing road block saying "you shall not pass" You can't do anything about it, you cant disarm them, and if you even go near them, you get immediately caught by any guards around and npcs run to the spot.

like whoever designed this stuff just doesn't understand game design 101, removing control from players = bad, disempowering player = bad, when player interaction is completely prohibited = bad. like i cant go on and on.

In fact that's what you do. You run, you hide, you cloak. The only difference is that instead of spawning an endless wave of guards, there's just one but invincible.
I also hate invincible guards, but spawning more guards to chase you is not even an option in an MMO. Reasons for it: 1) However strong they are, a group of skillfull players will just take them all easily. I have seen people soloing Molag Bal in Imperial City, and players soloing vet Dungeons. 2) Which is the most important point: Resources. Since this is an MMO, spawning an endless wave of guards will not even be an option, you just can't do it. 3) People will turn cities into bloodbaths, just because they can. Every city will be a bloodbath. No NPC lives.

BlackSparrow · February 2017

Heh. As a self-professed stealth game junkie, I heartily disagree with most of your post.

You seem to subscribe to the Assassin's Creed style of stealth game. Personally, I subscribe to the Thief (original trilogy) style of stealth game.

In the Thief trilogy, the greatest challenge was in ghosting around the guards. In observing their movements and anticipating them in a way that allowed you to sneak around them entirely unseen. The excitement was in the heart-pounding terror of avoiding the guards at all costs, because you knew you couldn't take them in a fight. The best tactic was sheer avoidance, because you were utter crap at head-to-head combat, and the frustration of the combat system was enough to keep you clinging to the shadows. Honestly, I never felt this necessity with the Assassin's Creed games, given their easy counter-insta-kills.

I'll also disagree that you do have tools to outsmart the guards in ESO. Invisibility potions or, for NBs, cloaks, are very powerful tools when you're stealth-focused. When my pickpocket gets caught at it, her NB cloak becomes her best friend to mitigate aggro and escape the guards (90% of the time anyway, and that last 10% where she can't escape is what keeps it risky to engage them at all XD).

There is an element of removing power from the player, I will grant that. No matter how well-timed, a pickpocket target set at less than 100% is subject to RNG... But I don't mind that too much. It's true to life that some targets are going to notice you no matter how skilled you are, and weighing that risk is part of the job.

Traps, though... that one I'll agree with you on. I'd love to be able to crouch and spend a few seconds disabling a trap, instead of going through it the same way everyone else does. Rogues being able to outsmart traps is a classic fantasy trope. The fact they can't do anything here is annoying.

And it stands to mention that I hate the timed stealth missions in this game. For me, stealth is about careful planning and patience to get the timing right. The fact that heists and assassinations have any sort of timer is immensely frustrating to me.

I think the bottom line here is that ESO is not a stealth game. It is an MMO that has a stealth system, and they balanced it the best way they could to help mitigate griefing as well as keep stealth play challenging and interesting. Overall , i think they succeeded. If anything, this system is too easy for an old-school stealther like me... but it's enough to give me my stealth fix while still feeding my love for MMOs in general and TES in particular.

Personal opinion being what it is, though, YMMV, and that's fine. I just figured I'd throw my opinion into the ring.

Turelus · February 2017

kratier wrote: »

like whoever designed this stuff just doesn't understand game design 101, removing control from players = bad, disempowering player = bad, when player interaction is completely prohibited = bad. like i cant go on and on.

Maybe to start with you should go and watch the ESO live interviews with the developers involved and the justice/theives guild interviews. This will give you some information on why some choices were made and what the design limitations were.

Secondly have you stopped and thought about what would happen if guards were killable? There have been plenty of threads debating the cons of this and how it would make the game feel cheap and cheasy, there would never be risk in the systsem again.

Also I think the kind of game you're looking for is pen and paper RPG where limitations and realism is set by the GM, in video games you have to accept some limitations.

Darkonflare15 · February 2017

kratier wrote: »

i dont think the devs in charge of this system understand what makes stealth games fun
a lot of the aspects of the justice system are just disempowering
guards are unkillable, act as road blocks and just prevent the character from continuing with gameplay. they are invulnerable and nothing you can do as a player will stop them from being a road block.
most stealth games offer things, tools, instruments, powers that allow the player to manipulate road blocks like these and play with the situation, this game offers none of that. its very restrictive and disempowering, you as the player have no choice no option and there is nothing you can do.
i suggest the devs in charge of this system or any devs try and play some stealth games to see why they are fun and what makes them fun. right now your stealth aspect of gameplay is really bad.

i say justice system in general because this extends to guards in cities and towns. the fact they are just static , unkillable, god-like avatars administering justice is really bad for immersion purposes, for gameplay purposes, everything. nothing about this system fits in the game world or anything.
if i encounter a guard in a city, I want to be immersed in the experience. I dont want to be on the receiving end of an endless supply of CC attacks, and for that guard to be invulnerable, totally breaks the enjoyment of the game for me.

what i'd like to see is some sort of "chase" sequence , that games like Assassins Creed has, where you run away from the guards, hide, disguise or lose them in a crowd. you have the option to fight them but then they out number you

also my complaints of disempowering extend to the trap system as well, the fact it removes control of your character is disempowering. its just like a giant CC that takes you out from the gameplay and some of them are so obvious with giant blue floating fire, its just simply not a trap, but a giant glowing road block saying "you shall not pass" You can't do anything about it, you cant disarm them, and if you even go near them, you get immediately caught by any guards around and npcs run to the spot.

like whoever designed this stuff just doesn't understand game design 101, removing control from players = bad, disempowering player = bad, when player interaction is completely prohibited = bad. like i cant go on and on.

You know right that the reason why the guards are unkillable is to prevent players from just killing the obstacle. The whole point of the guards is either to avoid them or escape from them. There no reason to kill them because it defeats the purpose of esacping from them. It is just a simple stealth base activity. Avoid or escape when discovered. It not supose to be a full stealth game and cannot be because it is a mmo. You cannot have players have all the power because it will jusy bring exploits to the game.

Shunravi · February 2017

BlackSparrow wrote: »

Heh. As a self-professed stealth game junkie, I heartily disagree with most of your post.

You seem to subscribe to the Assassin's Creed style of stealth game. Personally, I subscribe to the Thief (original trilogy) style of stealth game.

In the Thief trilogy, the greatest challenge was in ghosting around the guards. In observing their movements and anticipating them in a way that allowed you to sneak around them entirely unseen. The excitement was in the heart-pounding terror of avoiding the guards at all costs, because you knew you couldn't take them in a fight. The best tactic was sheer avoidance, because you were utter crap at head-to-head combat, and the frustration of the combat system was enough to keep you clinging to the shadows. Honestly, I never felt this necessity with the Assassin's Creed games, given their easy counter-insta-kills.

I'll also disagree that you do have tools to outsmart the guards in ESO. Invisibility potions or, for NBs, cloaks, are very powerful tools when you're stealth-focused. When my pickpocket gets caught at it, her NB cloak becomes her best friend to mitigate aggro and escape the guards (90% of the time anyway, and that last 10% where she can't escape is what keeps it risky to engage them at all XD).

There is an element of removing power from the player, I will grant that. No matter how well-timed, a pickpocket target set at less than 100% is subject to RNG... But I don't mind that too much. It's true to life that some targets are going to notice you no matter how skilled you are, and weighing that risk is part of the job.

Traps, though... that one I'll agree with you on. I'd love to be able to crouch and spend a few seconds disabling a trap, instead of going through it the same way everyone else does. Rogues being able to outsmart traps is a classic fantasy trope. The fact they can't do anything here is annoying.

And it stands to mention that I hate the timed stealth missions in this game. For me, stealth is about careful planning and patience to get the timing right. The fact that heists and assassinations have any sort of timer is immensely frustrating to me.

I think the bottom line here is that ESO is not a stealth game. It is an MMO that has a stealth system, and they balanced it the best way they could to help mitigate griefing as well as keep stealth play challenging and interesting. Overall , i think they succeeded. If anything, this system is too easy for an old-school stealther like me... but it's enough to give me my stealth fix while still feeding my love for MMOs in general and TES in particular.

Personal opinion being what it is, though, YMMV, and that's fine. I just figured I'd throw my opinion into the ring.

Agreed. well put.

idk · February 2017

Here I thought part of what made stealth games fun was actually using stealth to evade. If confronting guards then stealth is no longer an issue, though evading otherwise is. I think avoiding the guards is the point which brings us back to using stealth/sneak.

Disarming traps, Ive done that more than a few times in TG and DB. Have to notice them, be in stealth and interact to disarm though the actual disarming is just pressing a button, but they are there.

As for the timed heists, it is about careful movement and planning, on the run. One must think quick on their feet to figure out how to deal with obstacles all while planning their course of action. The DB one I like better, choosing the right target to hit first since the timer starts when the main target is killed so save him/her for last. really easy, though the TG one is all timer. Choose a wrong path, make a wrong decision and the timer runs out. Still get a reward either way.

I respect your oppinion, but the devs made choices and they had to make those choices understanding they cannot please everyone. Never can be done.

Vipstaakki · February 2017

This sounds like a learn to sneak issue.

SaRuZ · February 2017

This has been brought up many times.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/315971/justice-system-needs-an-overhaul#latest

I am not a stealth class. I hate being forced to play as a stealth class to enjoy content I paid for or go broke in-game so I get screwed over twice! I feel as though NBs were riding a heavy buff when Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood launched then were nerfed.

I completed Thieves Guild since the bounties weren't too bad(I literally ran through most areas, gained aggro from all the enmies then let them kill me at the end, only pay trespass fee.)

Dark Brotherhood can f itself. I am not paying 10k a mission.

Katahdin · February 2017

Its fine the way it is.

You can also use terrain to your advamtage

Jump off a balcony, bridge, dock

I do the jump off the dock thing quite a bit.
Its funny to watch the guard stand on shore trying to get you until its combat timer goes off.
But they are woosies. They dont want to swim

Also to the poster above me. Stealth pots that drop everywhere work really well to help you do those.

SwimsWithMemes · February 2017

This is why Abah's Landing is the best city in the game for theft - and aptly so. It is like, 3 stories high so you can always jump and run and CC break. If you are complaining about indoors theft being catchable - then it is most likely realistic. If you are attempting to rob a bank while the cops are in there, you're probably not gonna make it out!

I would like the indoors system to be changed - if you make it to a door and are more than 28 meters from an NPC you can escape through that door. I would like it work in Delves, too, where I have to wait for all the enemies to leash before I can escape,

Taleof2Cities · February 2017

Vipstaakki wrote: »

This sounds like a learn to sneak issue.

^This.^

Can't count how many guard complaint threads there are ... when it's just a L2P issue.

Molydeus · February 2017

I do miss being able to fight guards, like in WoW. Most of the time you lost anyway but at least you felt you maybe had a chance.

TheShadowScout · February 2017

kratier wrote: »

...the fact they are just static , unkillable, god-like avatars administering justice is really bad for immersion purposes, for gameplay purposes, everything.

Agreed, I dislike the immersion aspect of that myself... and -really- would have preferred the guards to be killable, but fire off a "arrest criminal" spell if they hit 50% HP that instantly wraps any evildoers fighting them in magical chains like a cristmas present, to be dragged off to the dungeons for some old fashioned beati... uhm... interrogation. Same general effect, less immersion-pains...

kratier wrote: »

if i encounter a guard in a city, I want to be immersed in the experience. I dont want to be on the receiving end of an endless supply of CC attacks, and for that guard to be invulnerable, totally breaks the enjoyment of the game for me.

So you want there to be no consequence whatsoever for criminal actions? Because that is what "able to just kill the guards" is asking for... and that wouldn't be any kind of "stealthplay" that would be brute force berserker play...

kratier wrote: »

what i'd like to see is some sort of "chase" sequence , that games like Assassins Creed has, where you run away from the guards, hide, disguise or lose them in a crowd. you have the option to fight them but then they out number you

...and then see the servers crash when a whole gild of criminals needs to be "outnumbered" by the city guard? Because while it would have been neat to have the city guard just plow criminals under by weight of numbers, that would pretty quickly escalate into server-stopping load when large groups of criminals attacked a town (and we all know that Would happen...)

Yeah, I'd love to be able to kill a guard who goes after one of my evil criminal characters, and his partner too, and hold out until they sent the swat team (special wizardry and tactics

) after me, then go out in a blaze of glory... well... or just a blaze, really (darn pyromancers!), respawn and carry on questing... but i can see how that kind of thing done by all the criminal players on the server would triple our lag, and thus is not all that likely to happen...

You can have your chase sequence regardless, you know. I have done it often enough, running away while using the tricks a rouge has available to evade the city guard (or, sometimes, not)... break CC, use the terrain to your advantage, pop insisibility, jump over a fence or down a ledge, hop into water for an instant escape, use your heals while running to just outlast the guard until you go past their tether, find a friendly footpad to get away - done all that.
The only thing that is really missing is Assassins-creed-style hiding spots like we have in heists and asssassination missions in the overland cities. I for one wouldn't mind seeing some of those, after all, the hiding in a hay stack is a classic, right?

Personally i think the stealth gameplay is fine. Sneaking past the guards, avoiding the trraps, hiding in baskets while a sentry passes by, figuring out the movement patterns to plan your perfect moment to get through...
Heck, I completed the thieves guild questlines on my templar healer girl, without ever once using a stealth potion, and only with the occasional minor bounty paid off, just by being patient, smart and sneaking as hard as I could.

What I myself really hate is the time limit to thievery heists or assassination getaway missions... but that is because I do not like being stressed during my gaming.

notimetocare · February 2017

SaRuZ wrote: »

This has been brought up many times.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/315971/justice-system-needs-an-overhaul#latest

I am not a stealth class. I hate being forced to play as a stealth class to enjoy content I paid for or go broke in-game so I get screwed over twice! I feel as though NBs were riding a heavy buff when Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood launched then were nerfed.

I completed Thieves Guild since the bounties weren't too bad(I literally ran through most areas, gained aggro from all the enmies then let them kill me at the end, only pay trespass fee.)

Dark Brotherhood can f itself. I am not paying 10k a mission.

Got a buddy that did it all on a mag sorcerer... Thats a l2p issue

kratier · February 2017

saying "l2p" is just a sad method for apologizing for bad game design
and yes, I played the original thief games too, they very much did give you tools. water arrows for light sources, black jack to knock out guards, pick pocketing keys to open doors, rope arrows to help maneuver areas. that was all in the first game, almost 20 years ago

like i said this game offers nothing at all, the encounter of "traps" "guard with light source" and anything else will amount in you being disempowered. you can do literally nothing against this. the entire premise of the encounter of "youve been caught by the guard" is a no win situation. in thief you could fight back against guards, you'd probably lose the fight, but you could definitely kill them and like i said with AC series, you'd soon be outnumbered and overwhelmed.

i know how to play stealth games im pretty good at them and enjoy them, what im saying here is the stealth gameplay in this game is not good, does not represent any good aspect of a stealth game, and isn't enjoyable to me.

saying "i did it, you should too" doesn't suddenly make the thing an enjoyable experience.

zaria · February 2017

strebor2095 wrote: »

This is why Abah's Landing is the best city in the game for theft - and aptly so. It is like, 3 stories high so you can always jump and run and CC break. If you are complaining about indoors theft being catchable - then it is most likely realistic. If you are attempting to rob a bank while the cops are in there, you're probably not gonna make it out!

I would like the indoors system to be changed - if you make it to a door and are more than 28 meters from an NPC you can escape through that door. I would like it work in Delves, too, where I have to wait for all the enemies to leash before I can escape,

Yes it would be nice, outdoor I escape the guards, 1 make sure they are not nearby, 2 you can usually break free and outrun the guards then go into sneak. I also use streak but often forget it.
Indoor its a bit harder so more care is needed.

hmsdragonfly · February 2017

kratier wrote: »

saying "l2p" is just a sad method for apologizing for bad game design
and yes, I played the original thief games too, they very much did give you tools. water arrows for light sources, black jack to knock out guards, pick pocketing keys to open doors, rope arrows to help maneuver areas. that was all in the first game, almost 20 years ago

like i said this game offers nothing at all, the encounter of "traps" "guard with light source" and anything else will amount in you being disempowered. you can do literally nothing against this. the entire premise of the encounter of "youve been caught by the guard" is a no win situation. in thief you could fight back against guards, you'd probably lose the fight, but you could definitely kill them and like i said with AC series, you'd soon be outnumbered and overwhelmed.

i know how to play stealth games im pretty good at them and enjoy them, what im saying here is the stealth gameplay in this game is not good, does not represent any good aspect of a stealth game, and isn't enjoyable to me.

saying "i did it, you should too" doesn't suddenly make the thing an enjoyable experience.

Again, you can run, hide and cloak. It's not possible to spawn an endless wave of guards in a MMO, no, it's just impossible. If you make it happen i am pretty sure not even ZOS and Bethesda, but every game studio on Earth will hunt you down and force you to work for them.

In the end of the day, this is NOT a stealth game, this is an Elder Scroll game with some stealth action. This is similar to Skyrim's stealth gameplay, the only difference is that in Skyrim it is possible to spawn an endless wave of guards, you cannot do that here.

theher0not · February 2017

I think we should at least be able to beat down the guards so they get knoked out for about a minute. Imortal overpowered guards makes the justice system really boring.

And if they don't want to have it in the game we should at least be able to go trough doors and have the guarda chase us in/out of the buildings.

Gargath · February 2017

kratier wrote: »

i say justice system in general because this extends to guards in cities and towns. the fact they are just static , unkillable, god-like avatars administering justice is really bad for immersion purposes, for gameplay purposes, everything. nothing about this system fits in the game world or anything.
if i encounter a guard in a city, I want to be immersed in the experience. I dont want to be on the receiving end of an endless supply of CC attacks, and for that guard to be invulnerable, totally breaks the enjoyment of the game for me.

The guards behaviour is just like it should be. Knowing their mechanics you need just to adapt to this mechanics, that's all. Instead you complain. I have no problem in avoiding guards, killing, stealing etc without being noticed. It's so much entertaining and immersive to be villain in eso, if you know the guars and your character's possibilities. Guards should be god-likes because it forces me to play the way to avoid tchem all the time, not to go constantly on melee with them to win just because I'd be stronger than the guard. There must be some limits set, that we cannot cross. Guards are such limits, especially if you clumsy and let yourself catched.

SaRuZ · February 2017

notimetocare wrote: »

SaRuZ wrote: »

This has been brought up many times.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/315971/justice-system-needs-an-overhaul#latest

I am not a stealth class. I hate being forced to play as a stealth class to enjoy content I paid for or go broke in-game so I get screwed over twice! I feel as though NBs were riding a heavy buff when Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood launched then were nerfed.

I completed Thieves Guild since the bounties weren't too bad(I literally ran through most areas, gained aggro from all the enmies then let them kill me at the end, only pay trespass fee.)

Dark Brotherhood can f itself. I am not paying 10k a mission.

Got a buddy that did it all on a mag sorcerer... Thats a l2p issue

Lol, I was playing stealth builds in TES3 long before you kids were all "Skyrim what? Ooh!" I played stealth builds for years, I grew bored. Why? After sneaking through delves in Oblivion, taking three times the amount of time than a warrior or sorc did.

The issue isn't ability, it's desire. The option to play it as I see fit is more accessible than being forced into a certain playstyle. Then you could enjoy your stealth approach and I could enjoy my kill-them-all approach.

On that note, I underatand why Guards are invincible now. Entire guilds would be making sport of them. It's a conflict of gameplay with only one side of functionality.

Gargath · February 2017

theher0not wrote: »

I think we should at least be able to beat down the guards so they get knoked out for about a minute. Imortal overpowered guards makes the justice system really boring.

What is really boring is the place like this on below screenshot, completely without guards, where bunch of annoying players slay every living mobs around - that ruins my immersion completely and that is someone's pleasure against my immersive pleasure from questing.
Now, if you'd let the city guards be beatable to death, or even knocked down for a minute, consider all the cities in Tamriel looking like on the screenshot, because group of players would play villians just for their personal fun without even bothering about other player's immersion. That would completely spoil the fun of many if not the majority.
Also consider a huge lag in such places, much much higher than now in the cities.

STEVIL · February 2017

most said but to include my thoughts:
invulnerable guards are necessary and they add the one unique aspect to the system that forces you to sneak/evade as opposed to the "burn enemy down" solution available in 95.% of the game (higher if you dont have the db and tg dlc)
let's not remove that shall we?
Tools are available including easily acquired invis and immov pots, clemency and other passives, monk robes to hide bounty, fake pardons and leniencies to counter bounty, etc.
Traps? Most traps can be disarmed by crouch approach interact before they go off. Slower than running thru them but hey....

kratier · February 2017

what you basically described aren't applications of where the gameplay offers you options or solutions, juts items you use to circumvent the justice system altogether
"invisible pots"
"immovable pots"
just negate the mechanics altogether
clemency/pardons just circumvents the time you are forced to wait

a lot of the issue i have with this system is the mentality of whoever designed it

gameplay is supposed to be engaging. what you described has nothing to do with gameplay, but going into your menu and selecting an item , using it, then having it circumvent the mechanics of the justice system.

what sort of gameplay do you engage in when encountering the justice system?
you have no option when caught by guards.when encountering those guards on patrol or the glowing blue traps, you can do nothing, you just avoid them.

like i said before , cant keep going on repeating myself, the game's stealth gameplay is bad, the encounters in the justice systems are brick walls with no options, the gameplay involved is just "Avoid"
the usual excuse i see is "l2p", no i know how to play stealth games, this is just a bad attempt at having stealth gameplay.

this sort of outright refusal of criticism is bad for development and bad for improving gameplay. the game isnt perfect, it has many flaws, try to fix those flaws thanks.

runagate · February 2017

If it makes you feel any better the fact that the Justice system functionality is so shallow is that it was gutted before it was released. It's clear more was planned. That's also probably the reason the TG questline is written so well, to gloss over the fact that no new in-game systems existed on which to build around for the TG dailies and such. I've finished it on many characters and have no use for the passives and can't think of any reason I'd repeat the process once the zone is completed.

More than anything the Justice system made most of Clickyville a worse place to loot furniture blueprints. I suppose going around and assassinating whole towns of folks is probably a way better way to farm them at the moment, and just relegate the chore to one character who gains all the heat while other characters go on with their lives.

hmsdragonfly · February 2017

kratier wrote: »

what you basically described aren't applications of where the gameplay offers you options or solutions, juts items you use to circumvent the justice system altogether
"invisible pots"
"immovable pots"
just negate the mechanics altogether
clemency/pardons just circumvents the time you are forced to wait

a lot of the issue i have with this system is the mentality of whoever designed it

gameplay is supposed to be engaging. what you described has nothing to do with gameplay, but going into your menu and selecting an item , using it, then having it circumvent the mechanics of the justice system.

what sort of gameplay do you engage in when encountering the justice system?
you have no option when caught by guards.when encountering those guards on patrol or the glowing blue traps, you can do nothing, you just avoid them.

like i said before , cant keep going on repeating myself, the game's stealth gameplay is bad, the encounters in the justice systems are brick walls with no options, the gameplay involved is just "Avoid"
the usual excuse i see is "l2p", no i know how to play stealth games, this is just a bad attempt at having stealth gameplay.

this sort of outright refusal of criticism is bad for development and bad for improving gameplay. the game isnt perfect, it has many flaws, try to fix those flaws thanks.

For the 3rd time in a row:

You can run, hide and cloak. It's not possible to spawn an endless wave of guards in a MMO, no, it's just impossible. If you make it happen i am pretty sure not even ZOS and Bethesda, but every game studio on Earth will hunt you down and force you to work for them.

In the end of the day, this is NOT a stealth game, this is an Elder Scroll game with some stealth action. This is similar to Skyrim's stealth gameplay, the only difference is that in Skyrim it is possible to spawn an endless wave of guards, you cannot do that here. Maybe they will expand stealth gameplay in TES6, maybe not, we don't know xD

BadLuckCharm · February 2017

BlackSparrow wrote: »

And it stands to mention that I hate the timed stealth missions in this game. For me, stealth is about careful planning and patience to get the timing right. The fact that heists and assassinations have any sort of timer is immensely frustrating to me.

This. Timer for those just burns me up.

STEVIL · February 2017

kratier wrote: »

what you basically described aren't applications of where the gameplay offers you options or solutions, juts items you use to circumvent the justice system altogether
"invisible pots"
"immovable pots"
just negate the mechanics altogether
clemency/pardons just circumvents the time you are forced to wait

a lot of the issue i have with this system is the mentality of whoever designed it

gameplay is supposed to be engaging. what you described has nothing to do with gameplay, but going into your menu and selecting an item , using it, then having it circumvent the mechanics of the justice system.

what sort of gameplay do you engage in when encountering the justice system?
you have no option when caught by guards.when encountering those guards on patrol or the glowing blue traps, you can do nothing, you just avoid them.

like i said before , cant keep going on repeating myself, the game's stealth gameplay is bad, the encounters in the justice systems are brick walls with no options, the gameplay involved is just "Avoid"
the usual excuse i see is "l2p", no i know how to play stealth games, this is just a bad attempt at having stealth gameplay.

this sort of outright refusal of criticism is bad for development and bad for improving gameplay. the game isnt perfect, it has many flaws, try to fix those flaws thanks.

I still have to disagree...

part of the function of a stealth side non-combat non-burn-down-bad-guy-like-everywhere-else-has-you-do part is to avoid the other guy.

I case the area.
i identify targets and patrols.
i wait until time is right.
i move in and act getting my stuff by stealing or assassination.
i usually 95% of the time get away with no bounty because i take time to know the situation and prepare for it and my character has skilled up in the right areas.
But sometimes things go awry and then plan-b kicks in and i exectute the prepared and planned escape route. I may have to use invis/immov pots but often because i knoew where i was i dont.
Finally, if all else fails and i am caught and out of position so i have to deal with it, thats when clemency kicks in or duck into somewhere before i get spotted by guard while still carrying heat to don disguise or hastily write my pardons.

Every one of those is a different way of "beating" that adversary/challenge - some involve direct interaction with the guard if i screwed up but most dont.

I know its not your cup of tea but that doesn't mean its anything like "brick walls with no options."

Sausage · February 2017

Its not that bad for MMORPG, but I agree. Ive suggested that some players should be Guards, so Criminals and Guards play cat and mouse game, both trying to find or avoid each other and Guards can tackle them and put them in cuffs and walk them to the NPC Guards.

Btw, I wonder if we get Thief 2 one day.

kratier · February 2017

not once did i say the game's justice system should revolve around fighting guards, i said you should have the option to
you just keep going on and on about that, like missing any point im trying to make