Attn ZOS: We'd like to know the rules for PvP

Turelus · February 2017

I've always said that ZOS need to do something like this: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/204873262-Known-Declared-Exploits

Notice how they also list a common misconception about exploits and debunk myths

We still to this day have people reporting others and spreading word that animation cancelling is an exploit, sure there is the video of Wrobel saying it's not, but that message should be clear and available to every player old or new.

Crown · February 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

@crown is probably the only player I ever really enjoyed debating with because I knew at some point he would concede at some level the possibility exists that we are both right

@Anazasi In most of our debates we were both right. I really enjoyed the challenge of trying to embed the idea in your mind that you might be wrong!

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2017

Crown wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Those arguments about what Crown did or not did at BB Mine belong in another thread or taken to PM. The more of that bickering that goes on the less chance we have of getting a response at all...

@RinaldoGandolphi The funniest part about that is I posted on the forums in the morning a, "look at this, we're here and made 200 some odd k AP in an hour, now I'm going to work" type of message in that thread that was removed. Some people did this for a solid 30+ hours back and forth on different campaigns, other high profile players came and AFK'ed for a few hours, and yet I get all the hate

@Crown I figured.

You were just trying to point out something that was broken to get it fixed. Why would you need to exploit that resource anyways? There is no one in the game that can out farm you now when you put your mind to it anyways. You were out farming nearly everyone long before anything like this became known.

This is one case i think things were blown out proportion.

Anazasi · February 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

What gear switching mechanic?

You obviously didn't read the full post and just jumped on the one point that you wanted to make.

You are correct that I didn't make it all the way down your lengthy post. To be quite honest I didn't--and I still don't--need to see your exploitation of BB mine compared to every other conceivable in-game activity so that I can render a reasonable judgment on your behavior.

All hale the great Kilandros, self appointed Hand of the King, has issued a judgment. All stand and hear how we should all think for he has decided our moral fortitude and issued his decree that we shall all follow his example as it sets forth the code of conduct for every player across the planet who engages in PVP AP farming. Let us all equip the same gear the same abilities and press the #1 button when told because it has been decreed by the almighty singular most significant Hand of the Pact.

Kilandros · February 2017

Crown wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

render a reasonable judgment on your behavior.

As I've told many people, ask a direct question, get a direct answer. Too many people judge based on other peoples' accusations and inferences without being able to back them up.

Even some of the white knight groups who claim to have gone to disrupt other players at BB Mine had players recorded saying "lets back off now and pretend we're done then come back to get another few ticks". Regardless of the stated motivation for disruption, anyone who is not AR50 already wanted that extra bit of AP.

What inferences have I made beyond assuming that the people flipping the resource knew it was bugged and yielding more AP than intended (if I'm wrong and no one realized it was giving 6k instead of 1.5k after flipping it back and forth hundreds of times, please, say so).

I came to this thread to make one simple and, I believe, straightforward point: That knowingly exploiting a bug is NOT OK and other game behavior is largely irrelevant. What other people did in other situations is beside the point when you guys KNEW you were exploiting a bug. Just because ZOS has been woefully lax on punishment doesn't mean players are exempt from for all future activities.

Look, I don't want you guys to get permabanned or anything I really don't. But I watched as ZoS bungled the CE mess and other past issues and I honestly think it has given players this notion that anything goes if you can get away with it. So yeah, I hope there are some repercussions for the AP farm you did at BB. Sorry it might affect you personally but I wouldn't have done it and I wish other players felt the same way.

CromulentForumID · February 2017

Turelus wrote: »

We've been asking for these rules since launch, they seem unwilling to answer.

Probably because once it's actually established as a rule by them they'd have to enforce it and it would be a mess of threads, tickets and requirements of active GM's.

This is my cynical post for the day.

The other downside of posting rules is that the "Rules Lawyers" can come out and parse every word to show how they are not breaking said rule.

Posting specific rule language lets players avoid the one specific case while completely avoiding the spirit of the rule.

Anazasi · February 2017

Crown wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

@crown is probably the only player I ever really enjoyed debating with because I knew at some point he would concede at some level the possibility exists that we are both right

@Anazasi In most of our debates we were both right. I really enjoyed the challenge of trying to embed the idea in your mind that you might be wrong!

ROFL I'm wrong all the time......The trick is not letting anyone else know that I know it.

Minno · February 2017

Crown wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Those arguments about what Crown did or not did at BB Mine belong in another thread or taken to PM. The more of that bickering that goes on the less chance we have of getting a response at all...

@RinaldoGandolphi The funniest part about that is I posted on the forums in the morning a, "look at this, we're here and made 200 some odd k AP in an hour, now I'm going to work" type of message in that thread that was removed. Some people did this for a solid 30+ hours back and forth on different campaigns, other high profile players came and AFK'ed for a few hours, and yet I get all the hate

Hate always comes with the "crown". Lol

Crown · February 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

You were just trying to point out something that was broken to get it fixed. Why would you need to exploit that resource anyways? There is no one in the game that can out farm you now when you put your mind to it anyways. You were out farming nearly everyone long before anything like this became known. This is one case i think things were blown out proportion.

@RinaldoGandolphi As I've written previously, being there was boring, and not something most people would want to do long term. The fun was being with friends and chilling in TS/Discord. Also as I've written, I interpreted the ToS such that it would not be against them, so if I was wrong in that, I would feel responsible for the few friends who I advised such to. If there were ever to be suspensions / temporary bans going out for that, I would ask that ZOS add up the time for the few friends I advised this to, and give me the cumulative time for those specific people instead of penalising them. I really don't mind not playing for a couple weeks - I have more fun being social these days than playing the game. Incidentally, as much as I thought housing was dumb, I'm enjoying it right now while PvP is broken with invisible players and too many new bugs

manny254 · February 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

render a reasonable judgment on your behavior.

As I've told many people, ask a direct question, get a direct answer. Too many people judge based on other peoples' accusations and inferences without being able to back them up.

Even some of the white knight groups who claim to have gone to disrupt other players at BB Mine had players recorded saying "lets back off now and pretend we're done then come back to get another few ticks". Regardless of the stated motivation for disruption, anyone who is not AR50 already wanted that extra bit of AP.

I came to this thread to make one simple and, I believe, straightforward point: That knowingly exploiting a bug is NOT OK and other game behavior is largely irrelevant. What other people did in other situations is beside the point when you guys KNEW you were exploiting a bug. Just because ZOS has been woefully lax on punishment doesn't mean players are exempt from for all future activities.

Look, I don't want you guys to get permabanned or anything I really don't. But I watched as ZoS bungled the CE mess and other past issues and I honestly think it has given players this notion that anything goes if you can get away with it. So yeah, I hope there are some repercussions for the AP farm you did at BB. Sorry it might affect you personally but I wouldn't have done it and I wish other players felt the same way.

^

Celas_Dranacea · February 2017

Guess I'm missing an opportunity to exploit for AP - oh well! E-Peen already large enough

Turelus · February 2017

CromulentForumID wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

We've been asking for these rules since launch, they seem unwilling to answer.

Probably because once it's actually established as a rule by them they'd have to enforce it and it would be a mess of threads, tickets and requirements of active GM's.

This is my cynical post for the day.

The other downside of posting rules is that the "Rules Lawyers" can come out and parse every word to show how they are not breaking said rule.

Posting specific rule language lets players avoid the one specific case while completely avoiding the spirit of the rule.

They you keep it broad enough "entering a keep without taking down the walls" then covers all methods of doing this.

Trading kills or AP with players on another faction.
Running a scroll to a rival factions keeps for them.

Then make a statement that all reports will be assessed and judged by ZOS and they will deem if you're in the wrong. Then people have some guidelines of what's funky behaviour and that if they're reported for something which seems to be very close to exploiting ZOS will look into it.

All of that also requires ZOS to have active game masters to deal with in game exploits.

out51d3r · February 2017

CromulentForumID wrote: »

The other downside of posting rules is that the "Rules Lawyers" can come out and parse every word to show how they are not breaking said rule.

Posting specific rule language lets players avoid the one specific case while completely avoiding the spirit of the rule.

That's a great reason to promptly fix broken mechanics instead of punishing people for using them.

Etaniel · February 2017

Crown wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

You were just trying to point out something that was broken to get it fixed. Why would you need to exploit that resource anyways? There is no one in the game that can out farm you now when you put your mind to it anyways. You were out farming nearly everyone long before anything like this became known. This is one case i think things were blown out proportion.

@RinaldoGandolphi As I've written previously, being there was boring, and not something most people would want to do long term. The fun was being with friends and chilling in TS/Discord. Also as I've written, I interpreted the ToS such that it would not be against them, so if I was wrong in that, I would feel responsible for the few friends who I advised such to. If there were ever to be suspensions / temporary bans going out for that, I would ask that ZOS add up the time for the few friends I advised this to, and give me the cumulative time for those specific people instead of penalising them. I really don't mind not playing for a couple weeks - I have more fun being social these days than playing the game. Incidentally, as much as I thought housing was dumb, I'm enjoying it right now while PvP is broken with invisible players and too many new bugs

I thought it was ok to rob a bank, so I told friends to go for it. If it turns out that it was wrong, I'd like my friends not to go to jail but have their jail time transferred to me.
Aren't your friends old enough to figure out that "the patch note said 1500, this ressource gives 6k, this is a bug" ?

Crown · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

I thought it was ok to rob a bank, so I told friends to go for it. If it turns out that it was wrong, I'd like my friends not to go to jail but have their jail time transferred to me.

Not quite the same context. Robbing a bank is clearly against the law.

Etaniel wrote: »

Aren't your friends old enough to figure out that "the patch note said 1500, this ressource gives 6k, this is a bug" ?

My interpretation was that regardless of the amount of AP, it did not violate the ToS. Even if it were to be frowned upon, it was the exact same scenario that has occurred many times before with increased XP gains with zero response other than changing return numbers by the devs to bring it back to a more reasonable number for future activities. I sincerely doubt there will be any repercussions, though if there are I would try to help my friends as best I can.

Anazasi · February 2017

You will have to do better than that. First a reward is given. Not taken.

NOUN
a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement:
"the holiday was a reward for 40 years' service with the company" · [more]

synonyms: recompense · prize · award · honor · decoration · bonus · premium · [more]

VERB
make a gift of something to (someone) in recognition of their services, efforts, or achievements:
"the engineer who supervised the work was rewarded with a bonus"
synonyms: recompense · pay · remunerate

We have no control over this and therefore hold no obligation to adhere to any person or persons moral objection based on their social constraints for fortitude.

I do like the reference to the patch notes that is a new twist in the argument. So lets walk down that line of thought. We as players assume that the party or parties responsible for the game will provide accurate details and reliable game that is developed without bugs or glitches. This could lend to a fiduciary agreement between subscriber and ZOS. We accept that from time to time bugs will be discovered and we as players take the time to report them so that we can help foster a better environment. We did report this on the forums in the appropriate thread "Bugs" on the 7th. We upheld our end of the agreement made. If fault or error exists it is clearly laid on ZOS not the players. The subsequent behavior, however unpleasant and morally grey is not something that other players can or should comment on simply because no other player can dictate play style.

out51d3r · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Aren't your friends old enough to figure out that "the patch note said 1500, this ressource gives 6k, this is a bug" ?

Not reading patch notes shouldn't be a punishable offense. Not reading forums shouldn't be punishable either.

Which just gets us back to promptly fixing broken mechanics. Don't rely on people hearing arbitrary rules through word of mouth.

Crown · February 2017

Anazasi wrote: »

We have no control over this and therefore hold no obligation to adhere to any person or persons moral objection based on their social constraints for fortitude.

Ethics and morals relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: ethics refer to rules provided by an external source, such as codes of conduct in workplaces. Morals refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong.

What we need is an official "Game Ethics" document as an addendum to the ToS.

caeliusstarbreaker · February 2017

I mean, if you know it's clearly unintended and you knowingly take part it's wrong.
you know a resource is giving way more ap than its supposed to and you farm that one specific resource is just wrong, technically exploiting and unintended mechanic of the game. Who it upsets is subjective, but there is no rationalizing it to be an ok thing and no need to ask if it's ok. If you went there to check it out and got like 30k AP out of curiosity and moved on with your day, yes you exploited but had he common sense to move on. Sitting at the resource all day and totally restructuring the fabric of the leaderboards is a different, and we really shouldn't need a developer to come in here to clarify that.

The gap closer fiasco, look as much as I think that leap and ambush, ww leap, silver leash should ignore z-axis because it adds variety to keep warfare, we know the basic implementation of the game is you must siege down walls to enter. If you somehow accidentally gap closed your way in its whatever, if you are knowing abusing the crappy coding as to play the game in a pretty easy to understand fashion, you're exploiting. Again, disciplinary action should only be used when conditions are met to ultimately alter the fabric of the overall game mechanics. If zos can't get a handle on a certain aspect and you're being an unbridled *** taking advantage of it(proposed situation, last keep emp defense whole guild would gap close through the grate to gain second entry into a keep) then administrative action should occur.

Look there are accidental ways exploits happen and there are mal-intensive use of unintended mechanics, they are pretty clear. The only necessity for blurring or attempting to blur those lines is just nonsense.

AP boosting, if you are colluding with other factions to intentional have AP given to you for pushing ticks higher for you, it's pretty clearly in bad taste. If, between collusion of your own faction and group mates that they are willing to forfeit their portion of the tick after legitimately fighting the enemy for the betterment of one individuals AP gain, sure it isn't savory for faction-mates that may have had their eye on emperor, but you haven't broken the integrity of faction vs faction, and more agreeable to the concepts of ticks work you are still within your confines.

Third party programs...outright cheating I hope this needs no explanation.

Look, if we ban everyone who has ever exploited, by everyone who ever cared to define an exploit.. We wouldn't have anyone playing the game. In the broadest of senses if there are so many people exploiting, then they must be horrible as I and many people I know seem to be doing just fine pvping.

Instead of trying to profoundly exude ignorance; when your informative manner of communication is clearly stating you're not, or trying to rationalize things that you want to be ok, or being unabashedly toxic to one another, could we potentially strive to play the game with and against one another within its albeit occasionally broad but pretty clear outlined mechanics instead of having to look to mom and dad to see if it's o?

Minno · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

You were just trying to point out something that was broken to get it fixed. Why would you need to exploit that resource anyways? There is no one in the game that can out farm you now when you put your mind to it anyways. You were out farming nearly everyone long before anything like this became known. This is one case i think things were blown out proportion.

@RinaldoGandolphi As I've written previously, being there was boring, and not something most people would want to do long term. The fun was being with friends and chilling in TS/Discord. Also as I've written, I interpreted the ToS such that it would not be against them, so if I was wrong in that, I would feel responsible for the few friends who I advised such to. If there were ever to be suspensions / temporary bans going out for that, I would ask that ZOS add up the time for the few friends I advised this to, and give me the cumulative time for those specific people instead of penalising them. I really don't mind not playing for a couple weeks - I have more fun being social these days than playing the game. Incidentally, as much as I thought housing was dumb, I'm enjoying it right now while PvP is broken with invisible players and too many new bugs

I thought it was ok to rob a bank, so I told friends to go for it. If it turns out that it was wrong, I'd like my friends not to go to jail but have their jail time transferred to me.
Aren't your friends old enough to figure out that "the patch note said 1500, this ressource gives 6k, this is a bug" ?

Only if that AP means anything. The equivalent is actually robbing a paper mill that prints monopoly money.

There are better things to talk about, like how the game will need to be balanced to account for both battlegrounds and open pvp. As far as I know, we haven't had that discussion in detail yet and it's slated for this summer for release.

Etaniel · February 2017

Crown wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

I thought it was ok to rob a bank, so I told friends to go for it. If it turns out that it was wrong, I'd like my friends not to go to jail but have their jail time transferred to me.

Not quite the same context. Robbing a bank is clearly against the law.

Etaniel wrote: »

Aren't your friends old enough to figure out that "the patch note said 1500, this ressource gives 6k, this is a bug" ?

My interpretation was that regardless of the amount of AP, it did not violate the ToS. Even if it were to be frowned upon, it was the exact same scenario that has occurred many times before with increased XP gains with zero response other than changing return numbers by the devs to bring it back to a more reasonable number for future activities. I sincerely doubt there will be any repercussions, though if there are I would try to help my friends as best I can.

Robbing a bank is clearly an exaggeration, but the analogy still applies.
Your friends are responsible for their own actions, and you can't use your interpretation of the TOS to excuse them.

out51d3r wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Aren't your friends old enough to figure out that "the patch note said 1500, this ressource gives 6k, this is a bug" ?

Not reading patch notes shouldn't be a punishable offense. Not reading forums shouldn't be punishable either.

Which just gets us back to promptly fixing broken mechanics. Don't rely on people hearing arbitrary rules through word of mouth.

That's not a valid argument. You aren't expected to read the law, yet you are expected to abide by it, and will suffer consequences if you don't.

Everyone abusing the ressource knew exactly that it wasn't the intended reward.

Etaniel · February 2017

Minno wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

You were just trying to point out something that was broken to get it fixed. Why would you need to exploit that resource anyways? There is no one in the game that can out farm you now when you put your mind to it anyways. You were out farming nearly everyone long before anything like this became known. This is one case i think things were blown out proportion.

@RinaldoGandolphi As I've written previously, being there was boring, and not something most people would want to do long term. The fun was being with friends and chilling in TS/Discord. Also as I've written, I interpreted the ToS such that it would not be against them, so if I was wrong in that, I would feel responsible for the few friends who I advised such to. If there were ever to be suspensions / temporary bans going out for that, I would ask that ZOS add up the time for the few friends I advised this to, and give me the cumulative time for those specific people instead of penalising them. I really don't mind not playing for a couple weeks - I have more fun being social these days than playing the game. Incidentally, as much as I thought housing was dumb, I'm enjoying it right now while PvP is broken with invisible players and too many new bugs

I thought it was ok to rob a bank, so I told friends to go for it. If it turns out that it was wrong, I'd like my friends not to go to jail but have their jail time transferred to me.
Aren't your friends old enough to figure out that "the patch note said 1500, this ressource gives 6k, this is a bug" ?

Only if that AP means anything. The equivalent is actually robbing a paper mill that prints monopoly money.

There are better things to talk about, like how the game will need to be balanced to account for both battlegrounds and open pvp. As far as I know, we haven't had that discussion in detail yet and it's slated for this summer for release.

it's not robbing monopoly money. I personnaly spent 1 million gold on desert rose items before the patch, because spending 5 million AP in rng didn't get me what I needed. It's still relevant, that AP can be used to get significant amounts of gold, it's not trivial.

Now, people can abuse the keeps/outposts in their current state almost as fast as that ressource, and this time the tick values are intended which means that the ressource ticks might as well have been intended, it wouldn't be anny different. But the fact is, it was unintended, and people abused it knowingly.

Anazasi · February 2017

I confess I went to the BB mine with the intent to rob it. I walked to the flag and told the guards hands up this is a robbery put all your AP in the bag and don't resist. They resisted I applied my shields and hit my ultimate button and they all died. I killed them all and ransacked their pockets and found only 7,200 AP. I quickly snatched it up and ran. Before I could get out of the area I saw another person who was blue who apparently had the same idea as me. I hid in the cave and to my surprise he did it too. Well I watched and then realized OMG I can rob that place again. So after a few minutes when things calmed down a little I walked back over to the flag and proceeded to do it again. Little to my surprise that blue guy was hiding in the tower watching me.

Man that day was just hectic. I have no idea how many people showed up over and over to rob that one resources.

Man now if I can only find a place that will launder all this worthless reward.

Crown · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Everyone abusing the ressource knew exactly that it wasn't the intended reward.

@Etaniel I'm curious as to your opinion on the XP gains from killing certain monsters that was giving about 30 times the appropriate amount, or the killing certain mini-bosses that had instant respawn. Both of these allowed for leveling from 1-50 in under an hour, and making (if I recall correctly) about 9 CP per hour. There are still a few such issues in the game. Being as those don't relate to PvP, would you treat them any different? What about the hundreds of people who got ahead using those (and the people who still are)? People needing to level a new skill line for a weapon and get all their morphs to level 4 can do so in about 10 minutes.. Is that something that should be penalised - and if so then how?

Etaniel · February 2017

Crown wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Everyone abusing the ressource knew exactly that it wasn't the intended reward.

@Etaniel I'm curious as to your opinion on the XP gains from killing certain monsters that was giving about 30 times the appropriate amount, or the killing certain mini-bosses that had instant respawn. Both of these allowed for leveling from 1-50 in under an hour, and making (if I recall correctly) about 9 CP per hour. There are still a few such issues in the game. Being as those don't relate to PvP, would you treat them any different? What about the hundreds of people who got ahead using those (and the people who still are)? People needing to level a new skill line for a weapon and get all their morphs to level 4 can do so in about 10 minutes.. Is that something that should be penalised - and if so then how?

Those problems can't be solved as easily as the AP from bb mine. The BB mine exploit concerns far less people and hasn't been going on a very long time. While I don't think it demands a perma - ban, it does call for some kind of sanction. Even if it's a trivial one, ZOS needs to start showing that they take action against bad player behaviour.

Broken exp grinds don't fall in the same category imo. First, it's an exp grind, it doesn't give any advantage aside from levelling faster. And I don't consider that unfair, since this is a living game and anyone who's been playing for a year has an unfair advantage over new players anyways. There's no "competition" until you get to max level, and there's no pressure to join that competition any faster.

Nevertheless, if it's abusing something that the devs didn't intend, there's a problem. And such issues should be dealt with by ZOS much faster. The simplest way to deal with that would be to use the mechanics that they currently have in place, ie server wide messages telling you : this behaviour isn't ok, we are warning you that we are in the process of fixing it, but meanwhile, you'll get in trouble for using it. Or the system that they have to force you to check crown store updates upon login, just put a message there for example. " BB mine is currently giving too much ap blabla, we are investigating blabla, please refrain from capturing it blabla". People can't use the silly excuse that they didn't read forums and that they were unaware.

It's something that should have been tackled ages ago because now people don't expect any repercussion, as ZOS has never done anything to combat exploits.

Asking for a code of ethics is fine, but I'd rather have them start punishing people, and you'll find that players will stop abusing stuff like that very fast.

Crown · February 2017

@Etaniel In principle, I agree with you. Considering the reality of the game (and noting that is is a GAME), baby steps need to be made in order to bring everyone's play into alignment with a standard. I believe that a code of ethics would be a good first step. Giving examples of what to do or not to do is critical. For years many people have been saying that there is not enough communication from the ZOS team, and that's probably one of the biggest issues at present. Sometimes I want to apply for a job there as the "PvP Strategy Officer"...

Glory · February 2017

I agree that having more defined rulesets for PvP would help disable arguments about whether certain players actions (feeding, trading objectives, etc.) are a punishable offense. I also agree that using third party software to manipulate the game is clearly a bannable (should be permanent across any accounts) offense.

I also will say that no matter how ZOS decides to respond to this current resource flipping dilemma, that the decision of players to knowingly take advantage of a bugged mechanic (resource awarding more AP than intended) is extremely scummy and intentionally exploitative. I won't argue as to my opinion of trading resources with correctly allotted AP values (although I also find this poor form).

By arguing that just because it's not clearly outlined in the TOS and it's an "in-game mechanic," it would be fair to justify equally scummy exploits such as the duplication bugs of old. Even though you make the case that you are doing nothing "illegal"/against TOS, it's laughable that you have to have long discussions and feel the need to justify yourself because you know deep down that these types of actions are wrong.

Crown · February 2017

@Glory What I'm doing is debating on behalf of all the people who went to BB mine, and there were hundreds (at least). I view things very pragmatically. There's no justification or excuse making as some people seem to emotionally respond based on their own morals. It's simple - I enjoy debating and arguing. This is a great point to debate, and other than a lot of people saying, "it's wrong" I have not seen a reasonable argument as to why it is wrong or who it hurt. I welcome a good debate... It's too bad @Anazasi agrees with me on this.

pragmatic
adjective: dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.
synonyms: practical, matter-of-fact, sensible, down-to-earth, commonsensical, businesslike, having both/one's feet on the ground, hardheaded, no-nonsense

Astanphaeus · February 2017

ZOS has explicitly stated previously that using flying gap closers is a bannable exploit.

Etaniel · February 2017

Crown wrote: »

This is a great point to debate, and other than a lot of people saying, "it's wrong" I have not seen a reasonable argument as to why it is wrong or who it hurt.

- It hurts people running for emperor legitimately.
- It hurts the economy : Ap is almost an equivalent of gold when you can buy loot boxes, people also sell Motifs with that AP.

Those are the two that I can think of from the top of my head, but I'd argue that they are pretty major.