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Attn ZOS: We'd like to know the rules for PvP

Crown
Crown
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@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @Wrobel et all.

With all the drama in the past few days, many of us would like to get an official word on what the rules of Cyrodiil actually are - or at least your opinions on these matters and if any action will be taken officially.

Regarding Gap Closers:
When I came back to the game after a long hiatus and learned that you decided using a gap closer across non-contiguous ground was "an exploit", we had a rather lengthy debate on the topic. I still believe that pointing my mouse at a target, and hitting the number 1 on my keyboard (where I slot my gap closer when using one) can not possibly be an exploit. At the end of the debate, I had to concede that "it is one because we say it is one and we have the power to ban people" could not be debated when the people making such a decision would not engage in conversation. The ability to gap close through walls and doors if timed right, and through some keeps inner side doors if angled towards the guards still exists to this day - obviously a coding issue that has not been corrected and an event that happens at once every raid (unintentionally) to someone in group.

Regarding using third party programs to affect the game:
I missed the big Cheat Engine explosion during my hiatus, and believe that anyone using this application to affect their game play should be permanently banned. What we saw during the CE fiasco is that you (not necessarily you, but probably people you work with who we don't know the names of, and so the "you" refers to "ZOS employees in general") did issue bans though repealed them for many, many people who were proven to have used this program. Today there are still people using the program along with many others including the most common one TriggerX (Gina was provided details of this a while back) which obfuscates its process as a child of another program rendering it harder to detect. The people using these programs have not been banned. While we understand that many of these people bring in money to the company, with hard evidence being supplied in reports with links to videos, the lack of action has fostered an attitude among the player base that "ZOS doesn't care". We know that this is not the case, though something more significant on your part - even if it's communications that you're working on it - would be appreciated. We would also like to know what you need as *proof* that a player is using such a program, so that we the player base can better prepare evidence for you.

Regarding feeding kills for AP:
We know that this happens, and the players on console seem to come across it a lot more often than on PC/NA (being the area I'm more aware of). Long long ago, the official response was something along the lines of, "if players choose to spend their time playing in this manner, then that is their choice". An alternative response from an email support representative quoted the ToS as this possibly being, "any other method of support that is not authorised by ZeniMax". There has been much debate on the wording (and you know by now that I tend to take the legal and more literal view of words in a contract), and the conclusion we've drawn from both these responses and the lack of action to date against players taking these actions is that while it may be against the spirit of the game, it is not in fact against the rules. My suggestion to partially address this challenge is to add a field in the database that keeps track of the last character to kill each other character (target), and while the full AP value for a kill resets after 5 minutes, this value would remain at zero if the person making the killing blow is the same person as last killed the target. This would not stop large tick farming, though other players should be able to disrupt (or at least steal half the ticks) for large death counts among multiple people participating. We would also like to know what information you have available, so that we can better prepare evidence IF this is interpreted on your side as violating the ToS and is something you will take action on.

Regarding trading keeps and/or outposts and/or resources for AP:
In a previous post, I took apart the ToS and gave a legal opinion that such activity does not violate any part of the agreement. The short short version is that if players decide NOT to attack each other, and instead simply attack the NPCs to take (a) flag(s), then that is their choice on how to play the game. This activity is easily disrupted by other players, and while it may not follow the spirit of "fight other players to make AP" there is no logical or reasonable way that we believe you (again the ZOS as a whole you - not the individuals @ named at the start of this post to get your attention) can debate this point. A suggestion to reduce the potential for this (if you indeed want to reduce it) would be to add a per-player timer such that you don't get full AP value from taking a flag for 5 minutes after having taken another one.

Regarding the above point of trading a resource as it applies to BlackBoot Mine:
I admit that I am biased, as some of my friends took part in this for a few hours and I advised them that per the above section it *should* not be considered against the ToS as long as the players did not gain a significant benefit from doing so or disadvantage other players per the ToS line on, "influence or advantage Your use of the Services". My advice was that as long as the players taking part did NOT use the AP gained to become emperor over a player who did not participate, then there is no possibility of a ToS violation, and even then it is a grey area that would be difficult to debate against the player who did take part. As much as I enjoy making him crazy debating for the fun of debating, @Anazasi made some good points in other threads and I suggest you read through them. The short short version is that players who took part in this AP farm did so making the choice not to attack each other per the paragraph above, and if the AP gains were above normal then that is a mistake on *your* part the same as the ones made in past that enabled very, very, very fast XP gains for levelling and CP grinding where *you* corrected the error *you* made, and took no action against players who benefited from such. I challenge anyone to provide an explanation of what is against the Terms of Service here. Many people may not like it, many players may be jealous that they didn't think of it first or that they don't have any friends who want to play with them and chill while trading a flag, but I still don't believe that anyone can reasonably state that this is an "exploit" and that there is any reason for people to be penalised for trading a flag back and forth.

Regarding bugs and taking advantage of them:
There are still a lot of old bugs that have not been corrected, and a few new ones introduced in the latest patch that allow some players to be significantly advantaged over others. Take for example how using certain skills or functions in-game allow a player to be considered "out of combat" for the fraction of a second that the animations are active, and the use of macros to change gear or skills during this period. We understand that some "macros" are considered bad, though technically anyone who uses almost any addon to automate activities can be considered to be using a macro - so this is a very grey area. We would like to know your position on this, and if, should evidence be provided of such, will the team that investigates reports put the effort in to analysing logs of player performance and activities during a specific time window to confirm to your satisfaction that such actions did indeed take place, and if so will there be any action taken against any players? In my opinion, the amount of effort required by said team for each report would not be reasonable, and the tools you use internally would have to be significantly revamped and new ones created to enable such - though from the player perspective, this is a clear case of cheating where it is not really viable for you to respond.

We understand that it is very challenging for you to put together a clear and concise list of rules for Cyrodiil that make sense and are enforceable. A group of us spent a few hours chilling in the Just Chill (guild) manor yesterday discussing this concept (and trying to decide where to put our duelling arena). We are very sure that it will not be easy to put together. We understand that the grand majority of reports about players that your team gets in Cyrodiil are likely accusations of cheating that are unfounded as many players can not understand that other players may be better than them or that they were outplayed, and the resources that have to go into this are enormous. Many of us would be happy to help, though we need your guidance and response in order to do so.

EDIT: ADDED TLDR - Please tell us what the rules are, what can and can't be done and what should and shouldn't be done so that we can react accordingly.
Edited by Crown on February 10, 2017 3:19PM
Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
  • Iyas
    Iyas
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    Dont know what there is to discuss. Ppl knowingly abused a bug at blackboot mine. Everyone who participated there knew that. And they had a huge advantage over other Players because 200k ap/hr is not normal. And with all the ways to converse ap into gold. Yay they exploited for their own good.

    Do I like how the new ticks getting farmed by Players on empty campaigns? Of course not but this is on Zos hands to change like implement a CD or something.

    Most of the other points I could agree with.
    Noricum/ Kitesquad/ PC/EU

    Kitesquad Vol. 1

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  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    We've been asking for these rules since launch, they seem unwilling to answer.

    Probably because once it's actually established as a rule by them they'd have to enforce it and it would be a mess of threads, tickets and requirements of active GM's.

    This is my cynical post for the day.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • White wabbit
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    And the gap closer issue I think was when they could Gap close onto keep walls using the Npc's to bypass that mechanic , I even spoke with players I caught saying it was an exploit they didn't care , so if you've exploited once chances you've done it before and sorry but there is no place for them on this game , probably get grief for saying it but that is my feelings on the matter
  • Kilandros
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    @Crown you guys weren't just trading any resource--you were trading a resource that you knew to be bugged and yielding far more AP than it should have been. If you can't discern the difference between exploiting an intended mechanic and exploiting a bug, then no amount of forum posting in the world will help you figure it out.
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • PrednisoneQueen
    I would like to know what is okay and what is not:)
  • yamadas
    yamadas
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    In the end players play game not ZOS, and players intentionally use those exploits or bugs for there advantage.

    And there is no grea area, ppl are just selfish pricks, *** just like win easy way.

    If they can, they will juse exploits or bugs.
    Edited by yamadas on February 10, 2017 3:34PM
    Yamadas
    Dk is Master of Shame // AR 50 (no more)
    Many Alts

    Necrotic Lagg

    EU / PC Master Race
  • out51d3r
    out51d3r
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    They've said that there is 2 requirements for something to be considered an exploit: What you are doing is not intended by the developers, and what you are doing gives you an advantage over other players.

    Of course, they enforce that completely arbitrarily. Miat's addon, for example. It clearly gave you an advantage over other players. ZOS clearly didn't intend for addons to interfere with stealth in such a way. It meets the qualifications of an exploit, but did they even hint at punishing people for using it? Nope. They decide on whether something is an exploit or not based on community reaction. If the exploit is popular, they don't punish for it. If the right forum posters make a stink over an exploit, they start thoughtlessly swinging the banhammer.

    The reality of the situation is that the term Exploit was invented by game developers to convince their playerbase that it's morally wrong to play the game the way the developers made it. They should be fixing bugs -quickly-, not punishing people for using them except in the most egregious of cases.
    Edited by out51d3r on February 10, 2017 4:09PM
  • Crown
    Crown
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    Incidentally, Nikel is now being traded back and forth by about a dozen players on each of 2 factions. They're making about 200k AP / hour doing so. 6 Players per flag.
    Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
    PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
  • Minno
    Minno
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    It's sandbox, whatever we want or willing to accept.

    It's why I'm pushing for a more structured battleground system. At least the fixed numbers make whatever non-existent rules easily managed (pending some balance fixes).
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Crown
    Crown
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    out51d3r wrote: »
    The reality of the situation is that the term Exploit was invented by lazy incompetent game developers to convince their playerbase that it's morally wrong to play the game the way the developers made it. They should be fixing bugs -quickly-, not punishing people for using them except in the most egregious of cases.

    I would remove "lazy incompetent", as we don't know the developers in most cases. Having managed development teams in past work, there are often times where management or budget just doesn't let them do what they need to do, and have code rushed out that they know is not ready or well tested.

    Other than that, I agree.
    Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
    PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
  • Kilandros
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    Crown wrote: »
    Incidentally, Nikel is now being traded back and forth by about a dozen players on each of 2 factions. They're making about 200k AP / hour doing so. 6 Players per flag.

    lol so what? Nikel isn't bugged. Stop trying to justify the fact that you guys knowing exploited a bug for personal gain by comparing it to every other incident of players taking advantage of intended mechanics.

    Taking advantage of intended mechanics = OK and up to ZoS to balance

    Exploiting a bug = no bueno and it's on you
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • asneakybanana
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    Gap closers into a keep is an exploit able bug

    CE is an exploit that should have had more severe consequences

    Feeding AP to gain a leaderboard advantage is extremely hard to classify due to the fact it's not using any bugged mechanics.

    Same thing for keep and resource trading

    BB mine is an exploit able bug

    Using any major bug should be considered exploiting and Zos should hand out suspensions for first time offenders and bans for repeat offenders or just flat out ban them if the offense is bad enough. If you used double mundus or hist bark bugs last patch it should be a suspension. If you sit there and farm over and over 6k ticks when it is supposed to be giving 1.5k ticks it should be a suspension. If you did the rakkhat skip to last boss cheese it should be a suspension. If you use CE you should be permanently IP/hardware banned.

    These suspensions shouldn't be 3 day suspensions, those should be saved up for chat offenses and trolling and whatever, these should be a week minimum for something small like double mundus or gap closers but month for more serious things. ZoS has gone way too easy on people for waaaaay too long that no one even fears consequences of cheating. That needs to change.
    Asneakybanana AD DK Former emperor of Chrysamere and Chillrend. World first hardmode Hel'ra and Quake con winner (Alliance rank 25)
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  • RinaldoGandolphi
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    Good questions Crown.

    Curious to see what their answers are.





    Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
    Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
    Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
    Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
    RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
    Officer Fire and Ice
    Co-GM - MVP



    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

    "Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • Thelon
    Thelon
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    this biased defense of exploiters made me sad on the inside
  • White wabbit
    White wabbit
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    Life time bans around
  • IcyDeadPeople
    IcyDeadPeople
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    Crown wrote: »
    Incidentally, Nikel is now being traded back and forth by about a dozen players on each of 2 factions. They're making about 200k AP / hour doing so. 6 Players per flag.

    How can this occur on a high pop campaign? Why don't other players dust off their bomb-blades and wipe the guys standing around?
  • out51d3r
    out51d3r
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    Crown wrote: »
    I would remove "lazy incompetent", as we don't know the developers in most cases.

    It's a little over the top, yes. I do consider "we don't have to fix it promptly, we will just punish people for using it" to be extremely lazy development though, and it's a mindset that seems to actually be considered okay all across mmo development, not just with ZOS. I really think that needs to be changed.
  • Anazasi
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    @Crown you guys weren't just trading any resource--you were trading a resource that you knew to be bugged and yielding far more AP than it should have been. If you can't discern the difference between exploiting an intended mechanic and exploiting a bug, then no amount of forum posting in the world will help you figure it out.

    I think what is being asked is not a "ruling" on the past events, but a clear understanding of what should be expected in the future. So lets ask how's that gear switching mechanic working out for you?
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
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    Anazasi wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    @Crown you guys weren't just trading any resource--you were trading a resource that you knew to be bugged and yielding far more AP than it should have been. If you can't discern the difference between exploiting an intended mechanic and exploiting a bug, then no amount of forum posting in the world will help you figure it out.

    I think what is being asked is not a "ruling" on the past events, but a clear understanding of what should be expected in the future. So lets ask how's that gear switching mechanic working out for you?

    I'll give you a clear and concise principle to guide all future events:

    If taking advantage of a mechanic that's working as intended = OK

    If knowingly exploiting a bug = Not OK

    What gear switching mechanic?
    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • Crown
    Crown
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    What gear switching mechanic?

    You obviously didn't read the full post and just jumped on the one point that you wanted to make.

    Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
    PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
  • SwaminoNowlino
    SwaminoNowlino
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    All the folks whining "cheater" and such will drown out this thread and turn it toxic per usual, but there simply is no arguing against the basic premise of the original post. Instead of vague blanket statements that allow baddies to yell cheater at people who can animation cancel correctly, wouldn't it be delightful to have everything spelled out nice and concise? This would also allow ZOS to take a more substantial position on punishing cheaters, as there is a nice document that they can point to where they laid it out. So many of the CE cheaters got their bans overturned by arguing they didn't know better and it wasn't explicitly stated. Its a win-win for everybody and would (hopefully but unlikely) save a lot of the petulant whining and accusation posts on the forums.
    Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden

    "We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
    - And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!

    I get by with a little help from logic.
  • Minno
    Minno
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    Crown wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    What gear switching mechanic?

    You obviously didn't read the full post and just jumped on the one point that you wanted to make.

    That part of your post, I hope zos answers. Especially for add ons since they are super tricky to classify, and I hope they can give us some info.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Crown
    Crown
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    (hopefully but unlikely) save a lot of the petulant whining and accusation posts on the forums.

    No chance... but we can still have hope!
    Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
    PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
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    Crown wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    What gear switching mechanic?

    You obviously didn't read the full post and just jumped on the one point that you wanted to make.

    You are correct that I didn't make it all the way down your lengthy post. To be quite honest I didn't--and I still don't--need to see your exploitation of BB mine compared to every other conceivable in-game activity so that I can render a reasonable judgment on your behavior.

    Invictus
    Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
    Sias - Sorcerer / Prefect
    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • Turelus
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    BTW, the fact we're not on page 2 yet and some people are already off topic arguing, this is why PvP threads aimed at ZOS go nowhere.

    If you want answers from ZOS, focus on that, put your egos aside until you're back in Cyrodiil.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • RinaldoGandolphi
    RinaldoGandolphi
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    Turelus wrote: »
    BTW, the fact we're not on page 2 yet and some people are already off topic arguing, this is why PvP threads aimed at ZOS go nowhere.

    If you want answers from ZOS, focus on that, put your egos aside until you're back in Cyrodiil.

    exactly!

    I would awesome this 5000 times if i could.

    Those arguments about what Crown did or not did at BB Mine belong in another thread or taken to PM. The more of that bickering that goes on the less chance we have of getting a response at all...
    Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
    Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
    Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
    Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
    RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
    Officer Fire and Ice
    Co-GM - MVP



    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

    "Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • Crown
    Crown
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    render a reasonable judgment on your behavior.

    As I've told many people, ask a direct question, get a direct answer. Too many people judge based on other peoples' accusations and inferences without being able to back them up.

    Even some of the white knight groups who claim to have gone to disrupt other players at BB Mine had players recorded saying "lets back off now and pretend we're done then come back to get another few ticks". Regardless of the stated motivation for disruption, anyone who is not AR50 already wanted that extra bit of AP.
    Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
    PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
  • Arthg
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    Thank you very much OP for the careful, respectful and constructive wording of your requests.

    Please people at ZOS pay heed to this thread.

    Some of us in the player base feel as if sportsmanship is not something you wish to see thrive in the game.
    Please clarify the rules and enforce them in a visible manner.

    PLEASE :)
    PC/EU. NoCP PvP. sDK Orc IRL. Flawless tamperor. Pro scrub.
  • Crown
    Crown
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    Those arguments about what Crown did or not did at BB Mine belong in another thread or taken to PM. The more of that bickering that goes on the less chance we have of getting a response at all...

    @RinaldoGandolphi The funniest part about that is I posted on the forums in the morning a, "look at this, we're here and made 200 some odd k AP in an hour, now I'm going to work" type of message in that thread that was removed. Some people did this for a solid 30+ hours back and forth on different campaigns, other high profile players came and AFK'ed for a few hours, and yet I get all the hate B)
    Edited by Crown on February 10, 2017 4:15PM
    Crown | AD NB | First AD/NA Grand Overlord (2015/12/26)
    PvP Guides @ DarkElves.com
  • Anazasi
    Anazasi
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    Anazasi wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    @Crown you guys weren't just trading any resource--you were trading a resource that you knew to be bugged and yielding far more AP than it should have been. If you can't discern the difference between exploiting an intended mechanic and exploiting a bug, then no amount of forum posting in the world will help you figure it out.

    I think what is being asked is not a "ruling" on the past events, but a clear understanding of what should be expected in the future. So lets ask how's that gear switching mechanic working out for you?

    I'll give you a clear and concise principle to guide all future events:

    If taking advantage of a mechanic that's working as intended = OK

    If knowingly exploiting a bug = Not OK

    What gear switching mechanic?

    stop asking subjective questions when looking for objective responses.
    prove to me that the mechanic was not working as intended. The mechanic being the changing of the flag which is the only mechanic that can be defined because it changes from one status to another.

    If you want to argue this then you need to change your terminology and ask why or how can a reward be so much.

    The players that did the mine flip exploited a reward but again that now takes you to the next step of arguing where the harm of the exploit exists. You need to brush up on those argument skills because without harm there is no exploit. Broken yes a bug yes crazy AP reward yes but exploit hardly.

    Kilandros I enjoy debating the nature of essence, morality, social contract, and religion, but I lack the incentive to debate with someone closed to the possibility that other views exists different from their own that are equally relevant. @crown is probably the only player I ever really enjoyed debating with because I knew at some point he would concede at some level the possibility exists that we are both right. As far as the gear switching mechanic one should continue to read the OP and ponder on the illusive nature of essence.
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