WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

Elsonso · February 2017

Dredlord wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Edit: Don't forget that players that do theory crafting are doing a player activity, not a developer activity.

Your edit is so ignorant it's surprising, theory crafting is first and foremost a developer activity, without it there would be no game systems to even code.

Player theorycrafting merely tries to guess how their build will interact with those systems.

On this, you could not have agreed with me more. Player theory crafting is reactionary, and those who are good at it are a valuable focus group resource, when they can do it quickly and under pressure. My emphasis on the player nature of what they do is intended to highlight the fact that these people are going to ZOS as players, not developers.

cbaudersub17_ESO · February 2017

leepalmer95 wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Isellskooma wrote: »

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

When was the summit with the average/casual players?

This forum is basically full of average/ casual players.

Some of the thread here amuse me.

I can type stuff too.

I like pie.

DigitalShibby · February 2017

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Sypher · February 2017

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

DigitalShibby · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

[snip]

You're upset because a gaming company asked gamers who have followers to come play test the game they are already promoting on their YouTube channels?

Play testing happens all the time and giving feedback to the game company is part of the whole "play testing" process. They picked people who have YouTube channels with traffic so they can then use that channel to further promote the discussion and hype about the game.. it's honestly not a big deal.

Thanks for the Bayer info tho. Lol
[edited to remove quote]

DigitalShibby · February 2017

Sypher wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

Good to know. The only people I heard about attending were YouTubers. Thanks for the info.

kuro-dono · February 2017

this here just shows how discusting eso forum population is. both parties blaming each other. tho , i am personally on the side of casuals/normal gamers, and gotta say, we get blamed for ruining the game.

Yeah, detonation bomb was our clever idea. oh, magica aoe bomb nightblade was our idea... steel tornado choo choos deffo were our idea! ultimate tanks that dont ever die, definetly i think i had that in my mind at some point! now we got templar heal bots, jesus beamers, i even see elites jesus beaming, because why not? those new monsters sets definetly promoting casual friendly envinronment! dungeon is bit too non casual friendly i would argue?

only thing i can imagine being casualfriendly change was that shields got toned down to amazing 6 second! LOL that joke! those same ppl they dont care if its 2 sec or 20 sec. they just spam it and watch the idiots spam their light attacks and skills in vain while trying to kill shield spammer. no no no. fail again, sorry my bad!

next... can someone after this post state what here is supporting seriously the casuals in pvp that its so fecking gamebreaking for "real players" ? zergs ? some fudge skill which no elite will ever use but casual is using it to kill them? or is it afterall... alessia bridge fault?

Eso pvp is just so damn fabulous, but downside is there is too many coffeine addicted mommys home type junkies who spam skills at the kind of rate that it turns any fun seeking person away.

I used to see 2-4 campaigns per setting available as we used to have lot more pvp:ers. last night i had look at it and oh how sad i felt

casuals are ruining the game and making all the 90% of the elites go away so we have less elites but amazing amount of n00bs oh wait what...

sorry. we have less ppl overall playing anywhere. less elites, less casuals, because not enough casuals for each elite to farm.
even idiots eventually realize when they are getting farmed.

Zenimax, i have said it few topics, and i say it again. COMPLETELY, AND FULLY separate casuals from elites in pvp. do us all favor. no more aoe choo choos farming n00bs, no more meta *** gankers behind each tree/rock wherever else ganking. no more those ultimate badass bolt escaping trigger happy kite lords. let the casuals have their fun and... for elites, maybe make campaign where there is huge herd of bots chasing them with random names.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[snip]

I wouldn't describe a company who chooses a panel of customers to test future products and help promoting them as "unethical" or "unfair". I also don't see why ZOS should provide any sort of justification for it.
Just because we're invited to form a community and to provide opinions and feedback doesn't make us ZOS owners, boss or shareholders. We're just customers.

If your local bakery gathered 20 customers to test some new bread recipe, would you even think as them being your "representative" and complain that the bakery did not ask you first ?

I understand that people are concerned that ZOS might make design decisions that we won't like - but then again, we always are, streamers' meeting or not.
[edited to remove quote]

Elsonso · February 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

ZOS could have prevented all this speculation if they were more honest about their intentions. If this is just a "Sneak Peek" of coming attractions aimed at community members that have a marketable following, then that is fine. If this really is a feedback meeting, then questions of enfranchisement and representation, (as this thread attempts to address) are valid.

They were. They said there were doing it. People who were so informed decided to take issue.

What are they doing, and why?

"These players will be playtesting some of our upcoming content and features this week with the goal being to get early, targeted feedback and suggestions."

Who is doing it?

"Q: Are the invited players PvE or PvP oriented? I hope that it is a mixture of them because both metas are quite different.

A: It's a mixture of both."

"Q: are they all Americans, or also Europeans?

A: The selected players are from all over the world!"

"Q: Do you have any oceanic?

A: Yes."

Also:

"We have a good mix of play styles, platform and region. (i.e. - Console & PC players, who PVE and/or PVP, from both NA and EU)"

I am not sure how one determines honesty and dishonesty from that.

bowmanz607 · February 2017

Sypher wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

ha tell that to op. People have been trying to tell him that.

hope you had a good time!!!

Paulington · February 2017

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

ha tell that to op. People have been trying to tell him that.

hope you had a good time!!!

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

hamgatan · February 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

"Q: Do you have any oceanic?

A: Yes."

good. perhaps they can have a pow wow and find a solution for why we have to tolerate 400+ pings and are expected to be 'competitive' with that.

DenMoria · February 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

So what I'm getting from this thread is that some players are scared streamers will get rid of some of the casual friendly mechanics and actually make the game more skill base thus making it to where casual players won't be able to complete content or compete in PvP anymore. But wouldn't that be a good thing there should be more separation between good and average players. And even playing casually eventually you will be able to compete the content, honestly that sounds better for everyone it would add a sense of accomplishment to the game that's been missing for awhile now.

Someones an elitest, eh?

No. It would not be a good thing to alienate the majority of players for the few that have the time to obsessively play the game and "maximize" their builds.

It's fine if that's the way they want to go. I've pretty much given up anyway.

bowmanz607 · February 2017

Paulington wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

ha tell that to op. People have been trying to tell him that.

hope you had a good time!!!

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

ya, that was my assumption. people yell about the streamers cause they announced it is all.

grumlins · February 2017

I happen to know that Deltia supports my kind of playerbase casual pve only players, because he's gone through and made mention that any class spec is possible and useful.

This is for tanking, healing and dpsing which are the three rolls for the majority of the playerbase in this particular title which is dungeoneering.

I trust Deltia because I watch his videos particularly because he is inclusive with alternative ideas and with the concepts of openness and with the process of debunking claims that games should be played solely in a particular spec or gear type.

So while your complaints might have merit in other titles this particular gamer is not an issue.

DenMoria · February 2017

grumlins wrote: »

I happen to know that Deltia supports my kind of playerbase casual pve only players, because he's gone through and made mention that any class spec is possible and useful.

This is for tanking, healing and dpsing which are the three rolls for the majority of the playerbase in this particular title which is dungeoneering.

I trust Deltia because I watch his videos particularly because he is inclusive with alternative ideas and with the concepts of openness and with the process of debunking claims that games should be played solely in a particular spec or gear type.

So while your complaints might have merit in other titles this particular gamer is not an issue.

True. I have absolutely no issues with Deltia at all and I enjoy the YouTube streaming and all that and the builds are great, particularly if I want to maximize.

willlienellson · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I wouldn't describe a company who chooses a panel of customers to test future products...

But that's the point. These guys are much closer to being in a B2B (business to business) relationship with Zos than being traditional customers at this point. That's exactly the point.

Paulington · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I wouldn't describe a company who chooses a panel of customers to test future products...

But that's the point. These guys are much closer to being in a B2B (business to business) relationship with Zos than being traditional customers at this point. That's exactly the point.

I mean, I make zero money from the few YouTube videos I've made and the streams I do maybe once every few weeks.

Given that around half of the testing team never streams or posts YouTube content it seems to me that ZOS chose people based upon their ability to provide meaningful feedback in a coherent and constructive manner. It just so happens that (unsurprisingly) streamers of the game tend to be some of the most skilled players.

willlienellson · February 2017

Paulington wrote: »

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

That's good to know, but I wish I had some actual names. Because someone used Alcast earlier as an example of a nonstreamer, but the first result you get when you google "Alcast ESO" is his youtube channel with 20k followers (compared to 57k for Sypher).

When people say, "Non-streamers/YouTubers" maybe they mean people not making a career from doing those things? But they're still doing those things.

Or maybe someone can give me a new example.

I'd love the name of someone who was at the event who I can find them posting on this forum but when I google them I won't find a youtube channel.

EDIT:

Paulington wrote: »

I mean, I make zero money from the few YouTube videos I've made and the streams I do maybe once every few weeks.

Given that around half of the testing team never streams or posts YouTube content it seems to me that ZOS chose people based upon their ability to provide meaningful feedback in a coherent and constructive manner.

I can appreciate that, but my point is that by engaging in the same activity, even if you don't make a living from it, you represent the same thing to Zos - just on a smaller scale.

But like I said, can someone throw out a name of a person who was included that doesn't have anything to do with youtube and streaming?

Thanks.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I wouldn't describe a company who chooses a panel of customers to test future products...

But that's the point. These guys are much closer to being in a B2B (business to business) relationship with Zos than being traditional customers at this point. That's exactly the point.

Even if it were true, even if the meeting involved only "professional" streamers/youtubers that make a living out of ESO, I still fail to see what the problem would be. It would probably be even better, since the average player will only want the game to suit his personal needs and preferences, whereas a professional streamer is interested in keeping all aspects of the game healthy because he targets a diversified audience.

Paulington · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

That's good to know, but I wish I had some actual names. Because someone used Alcast earlier as an example of a nonstreamer, but the first result you get when you google "Alcast ESO" is his youtube channel with 20k followers (compared to 57k for Sypher).

When people say, "Non-streamers/YouTubers" maybe they mean people not making a career from doing those things? But they're still doing those things.

Or maybe someone can give me a new example.

I'd love the name of someone who was at the event who I can find them posting on this forum but when I google them I won't find a youtube channel.

EDIT:

Paulington wrote: »

I mean, I make zero money from the few YouTube videos I've made and the streams I do maybe once every few weeks.

Given that around half of the testing team never streams or posts YouTube content it seems to me that ZOS chose people based upon their ability to provide meaningful feedback in a coherent and constructive manner.

I can appreciate that, but my point is that by engaging in the same activity, even if you don't make a living from it, you represent the same thing to Zos - just on a smaller scale.

But like I said, can someone throw out a name of a person who was included that doesn't have anything to do with youtube and streaming?

Thanks.

It's up to each individual person if they with to disclose their involvement, but there were people there who do not stream or make YouTube videos, instead just being very knowledgeable.

Perhaps one will chime in the thread a little later. The event only recently finished so I imagine a few are still getting home, I am still in the USA for example!

.

willlienellson · February 2017

Paulington wrote: »

It's up to each individual person if they with to disclose their involvement, but there were people there who do not stream or make YouTube videos, instead just being very knowledgeable.

Perhaps one will chime in the thread a little later. The event only recently finished so I imagine a few are still getting home, I am still in the USA for example! .

I'll look forward to that. That would go a long way towards changing or at least tempering my opinion.
But until then...it's been just 100% youtubers/streamers as known participants, even if they all aren't making a living from it.

willlienellson · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

average player will only want the game to suit his personal needs and preferences, whereas a professional streamer is interested in keeping all aspects of the game healthy

I disagree and I think that's naive.

Oompuh · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

That's good to know, but I wish I had some actual names. Because someone used Alcast earlier as an example of a nonstreamer, but the first result you get when you google "Alcast ESO" is his youtube channel with 20k followers (compared to 57k for Sypher).

When people say, "Non-streamers/YouTubers" maybe they mean people not making a career from doing those things? But they're still doing those things.

Or maybe someone can give me a new example.

I'd love the name of someone who was at the event who I can find them posting on this forum but when I google them I won't find a youtube channel.

EDIT:

Paulington wrote: »

I mean, I make zero money from the few YouTube videos I've made and the streams I do maybe once every few weeks.

Given that around half of the testing team never streams or posts YouTube content it seems to me that ZOS chose people based upon their ability to provide meaningful feedback in a coherent and constructive manner.

I can appreciate that, but my point is that by engaging in the same activity, even if you don't make a living from it, you represent the same thing to Zos - just on a smaller scale.

But like I said, can someone throw out a name of a person who was included that doesn't have anything to do with youtube and streaming?

Thanks.

If you dont have a public image on the game, how would ZOS know you exist? There may be more knowledgable people on the game, but the fact is they dont know who they are because they dont have a public image. Thats just how it is.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

average player will only want the game to suit his personal needs and preferences, whereas a professional streamer is interested in keeping all aspects of the game healthy

I disagree and I think that's naive.

Please explain how that is naive ?

willlienellson · February 2017

Oompuh wrote: »

If you dont have a public image on the game, how would ZOS know you exist? There may be more knowledgable people on the game, but the fact is they dont know who they are because they dont have a public image. Thats just how it is.

I don't know, but @Paulington just said they were there. They could be people that have good scores from inside the game that were asked in-game. They could be people that submitted very helpful feedback inside the game and were invited (wouldn't that be awesome). They could be people from these forums. They could be people from the reddit forums. They could be people selected at random.

I don't know. But I want to know.

This changes everything. People keep saying, "Not all streamers" but I haven't actually seen a person mentioned yet that isn't either making a living from streaming/tubing ESO or doing the same activity unprofitably. From Zos's point of view they would be the same.

Zos needs feedback (we all agree). Zos needs publicity (we all agree). But I don't want Zos getting most of their feedback from a select group of players in exchange for publicity.

The streamers and tubers would be plugging ESO anyway. They're dedicated to doing so. It's like a magazine on Hollywood. You don't have to give Vanity Fair or Empire creative input in how to make your next movie for them to keep writing about movies.

So giving this select group more creative input than others is dumb and pointless since the service they give in exchange is going to happen anyway. It's an unnecessary cost we all bare.

BUT. But if they did invite "more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half" as @Paulington says, then that changes the entire dynamics of the meeting and would go a long way to alleviating most if not all of my concerns.

I'm just hoping to get some details that confirm.

idk · February 2017

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Oooh the "It's ok because capitalism" argument. I love that one! My turn!

In 1984, the company Bayer realized that a lot of their blood products, (Factor VIII and IX anti-hemophiliac compounds), were contaminated with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). However, the financial investment in the product was considered too high to destroy the inventory. So Bayer misrepresented the results of its own research and sold the contaminated Blood Products to overseas markets in Asia and Latin America without the precaution of heat treating the product recommended for eliminating the risk. As a consequence, hemophiliacs who infused the HIV-contaminated products tested positive for HIV and developed AIDS.

It's just a business people, relax!

A video game and blood used to save someone's life that gives them a life threatening illness are not on the same level. At. All.

@Yolokin_Swagonborn is correct the EXACT same principle is involved.

When profit is the ONLY guiding principle involved then the first casualty is always "product integrity" and that means the customer is either getting ripped off or duped.

All The Best

@Gandrhulf_Harbard
Absolutely absurd to say such a comparison is correct. @MissBizz was correct with her reply.

It's as insular as the original post of this thread.

willlienellson · February 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Please explain how that is naive ?

Sure, I'd be happy to.
I can't mention names or link to websites, but they probably aren't hard to find if you research.
Some of these streamers/youtubers have websites set up where they charge HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS to players to teach them special "tricks" and "strategies" to excel at the game.

And these same people get extra feedback opportunities and early access to information.
So, it's a problem in both directions.

First, they potentially get access to information which they can and do charge large sums to players to share.

Second, they have a vested financial interest in giving feedback that keeps the game imbalanced so they can charge large sums to help players cross the ever growing power-gap between average and best.

Feel free to personal message me if you want to have a more detailed chat.

SirAndy · February 2017

thankyourat wrote: »

So what I'm getting from this thread is that some players are scared streamers will get rid of some of the casual friendly mechanics and actually make the game more skill base thus making it to where casual players won't be able to complete content or compete in PvP anymore.

You are confusing casual with un-skilled. Those two are not synonymous ...

Oompuh · February 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

If you dont have a public image on the game, how would ZOS know you exist? There may be more knowledgable people on the game, but the fact is they dont know who they are because they dont have a public image. Thats just how it is.

I don't know, but @Paulington just said they were there. They could be people that have good scores from inside the game that were asked in-game. They could be people that submitted very helpful feedback inside the game and were invited (wouldn't that be awesome). They could be people from these forums. They could be people from the reddit forums. They could be people selected at random.

I don't know. But I want to know.

This changes everything. People keep saying, "Not all streamers" but I haven't actually seen a person mentioned yet that isn't either making a living from streaming/tubing ESO or doing the same activity unprofitably. From Zos's point of view they would be the same.

Zos needs feedback (we all agree). Zos needs publicity (we all agree). But I don't want Zos getting most of their feedback from a select group of players in exchange for publicity.

The streamers and tubers would be plugging ESO anyway. They're dedicated to doing so. It's like a magazine on Hollywood. You don't have to give Vanity Fair or Empire creative input in how to make your next movie for them to keep writing about movies.

So giving this select group more creative input than others is dumb and pointless since the service they give in exchange is going to happen anyway. It's an unnecessary cost we all bare.

BUT. But if they did invite "more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half" as @Paulington says, then that changes the entire dynamics of the meeting and would go a long way to alleviating most if not all of my concerns.

I'm just hoping to get some details that confirm.

These are 2 pictures of the meeting with ZOS. If "everyone" is a streamer than people should be able to name everyone in this picture. Correct?

*These pictures are from Feng's twitter, no secret NDA stuff