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Homestead lacks value and utility
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austinwalter87ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Did DAOC even have a cash shop? Cash shops are pretty much a staple of MMOs now so I would get used to them and that at least some part of any housing system in new MMOs will ties to the cash shop. If a cash shop was added it would have been much simpler that cash shops of the current age of MMOs.
Instanced housing is also more normal these days, Granted it is easier that individual housing like DAOC for starters.
ESO does have housing for every budget for in game gold and almost every budget concerning crowns (granted some players have no crowns). There are players that have enough gold to buy to buy Manors out right with gold, even all three manors.
There are aspects of housing that would be good changes but being instanced and the price is not among that. I am actually surprised the crown prices furnished are as low as they are.
No. DAOC did not have a cash shop. DAOC existed and achieved it's prime long before cash shops were the norm. I'm also not opposed to cash shops. I do find the cash shop for ESO to be absurdly expensive.
I don't find the in game costs for houses to be absurd. I find the investment for furniture to be a larger issue.
I understand why instance based housing was chosen. However, it is less impressive and immersive that way. DAOC'S model was preferable.
The biggest issue for ESO is that the crown ratio is absurdly high. It's a lot of money for 5000 crowns. The cash shop in ESO is just unnecessarily expensive as a whole. Not limited to Homestead.
I'd rather they scrap the free DLC model. And provide large yearly expansion packs at a substantial price. Along with making crowns more affordable.PC and PS4 (bring back character transfers please?)
Templar Extraordinaire1 -
Livvy✭✭✭✭✭I just wish there was a way to place more collectibles we've purchased from the store. 8 seems like far too few for a large house. It would maybe make them sell more store items, too.
::hint hint ZOS::
Maybe they'll sell a limit upgrade at some point or something. I want to have more of my pets hanging out in different places on my property.->--Willow--<-0 -
maboleth✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well to be honest, the number of items is so mindbogglingly huge, in one way or another people will either form a housing guilds, Ikea-like stores, or go shop with the crowns.
The potential problem i see here is that everything is sold separately. Everything. You have to buy and place every single item on the table, for example. In Skyrim's Hearthfire when you made a table, you've got it all - from fruits, dishes, utensils to candles and fabrics.
Here, you have to craft/buy every single item. While this makes customization very rewarding, to the extreme actually, it's very expensive. There's no way you can find everything you want in the wild, so Ikea guilds will be the lifesavers for everyone that don't want to spend crowns.
Edited by maboleth on February 8, 2017 12:41AM1 -
billp_ESO✭✭✭✭I remember DAOC's housing. Our Guild bought an entire neighborhood, all the houses in a circle. Those were the days!
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Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"Homestead lacks value and utility"
I agree. The costs simply does not justify the benefit.
Homestead is just a big money dump with almost nothing new in return. There is no additional storage, or even access to your other characters inventory.
The only good thing that it can do is if you craft all crafting station and add some bank access (by placing NPC). But it all cost too much. Why to craft a crafting station when I can go to any city and the crafting station and bank is right there ? The only unique thing is a training dummy. Maybe if you have a trading guild and have like 5 million gold in bank.
So... the costs simply does not justify the benefit (at least for solo or non guild players).
With homestead update there are also new crafting items.. so yes - more space in bank is going to be taken...
btw. Did I mentioned that map is now clustered with those "black" houses that you will need like 50 million gold in order to "unlock" them all ? (no pun intended xD ).
But hey, it is new content, there is nothing to worry about
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on February 8, 2017 12:51AM0 -
Absurdly high cost, yet a pathetic amount of players admitted for example.
Zenimax you won't do anything to stop trolls from interrupting role play events, and you don't even let us have an acceptable number in the homes/manors despite the ABSURD cost? This is a slap in the face. Its like Molag Bal just took a squat on us. Your business statistics mean nothing. People are going to boycott, and stop buying crowns if these shady practices continue. First we had that stupid moose or elk, then this, and you DONT EVEN RELEASE THE UNDERGROUND CAVE.
Why? So it can be "fixed?"
No. ZoS did it to mooch money off of people, then release that super exclusive place to force people to buy money again instead of being able to pick and choose.
I thought Zos was a mildly respectable company - why I left BiowarEA's SWTOR. How about we turn things around?1 -
Caff32✭✭✭✭Personally, I've never been less excited for a patch. I usually take the day off after an update but not this time. There is just no content.3 -
valthierX✭✭You should be able to unload all your stuff from your bag when you have a home. I don't understand why they didn't include this right from the start since it's pretty basic. I guess they are thinking of making it another money grabbing feature should they decide to put this in. All these decorating stuff will get boring and tiresome pretty soon as it doesn't really add anything to the progress or betterment of your character.1 -
Remag_Div✭✭✭✭✭Can't disagree with anything OP said.
Homestead is still brand new, so I'm going to give ZOS some slack and see if they improve it throughout the year. However, as it stands now, Homestead is extremely lackluster and a very obvious setup to get people to spend money in the Crown Store.
Many of the systems and implementation of Homestead need to either be tweaked or redone entirely.2 -
Kesstryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only utility that I can see is being able to port directly to a home in another region, then go out the door. I think that works. Haven't really tested it cross region. Has anyone tested it cross region?HEARTHLIGHT - A guild for housing enthusiasts! Contact @Kesstryl in-game to join.0 -
AlMcFly✭✭✭✭✭
✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »
I don't believe greed to be a bad thing inherently. However, I do believe that a business should provide a quality product to justify it.
"Quality" is a relative term, a value judgement. If you can't quantify the value of something in a way that the majority of the market can agree with, your argument is pointless.
You're just arguing based of "feeling".Edited by AlMcFly on February 8, 2017 2:38AM1 -
austinwalter87ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »
I don't believe greed to be a bad thing inherently. However, I do believe that a business should provide a quality product to justify it.
"Quality" is a relative term, a value judgement. If you can't quantify the value of something in a way that the majority of the market can agree with, your argument is pointless.
You're just arguing based of "feeling".
I'm well aware that, as a business, they must provide value to a product in a way which their market can agree with.
The assertion that I'm arguing based on feeling seems to ignore my OP. As I listed historic examples of better systems to substantiate why the quality of the product today is subpar by comparison.
PC and PS4 (bring back character transfers please?)
Templar Extraordinaire0 -
AlMcFly✭✭✭✭✭
✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »The assertion that I'm arguing based on feeling seems to ignore my OP.
I replied to your post. I don't care enough about this thread to remember the names of who said what, and when. Who does that?0 -
tist✭✭✭As a former DAOC player, many of your points hit home and are spot on. The ESO houses are really lackluster. The only reason I would consider getting one is for close crafting stations, bank and target dummy. But there is nothing prestigious about owning one considering they are instanced and most people are in guilds they dont give a *** about.0 -
austinwalter87ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »The assertion that I'm arguing based on feeling seems to ignore my OP.
I replied to your post. I don't care enough about this thread to remember the names of who said what, and when. Who does that?
Memory is a useful thing for debates.
PC and PS4 (bring back character transfers please?)
Templar Extraordinaire1 -
AlMcFly✭✭✭✭✭
✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »The assertion that I'm arguing based on feeling seems to ignore my OP.
I replied to your post. I don't care enough about this thread to remember the names of who said what, and when. Who does that?
Memory is a useful thing for debates.
It's a good thing this isn't a debate. It's nothing but one of many nerdy rants about some digital items in which you have an opinion of worth, and are disgruntled that the creators don't share your perception of value. Cite as much history as you like. There is no standard valuation or system of measure to value digital items, especially across different companies. You wrote a lot of worthless fodder hoping to sway at least somebody.
Truth: ZOS will price their digital goods at whatever they like, and people will buy it. What other games do with their goods is irrelevent in the eyes of the market right now. Hell, someone mentioned Matt Firor (sp?), But you seem to forget the person in charge of pricing the cash shop is the same person responsible for SWTOR's.Edited by AlMcFly on February 8, 2017 3:53AM0 -
austinwalter87ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »The assertion that I'm arguing based on feeling seems to ignore my OP.
I replied to your post. I don't care enough about this thread to remember the names of who said what, and when. Who does that?
Memory is a useful thing for debates.
It's a good thing this isn't a debate. It's nothing but one of many nerdy rants about some digital items in which you have an opinion of worth, and are disgruntled that the creators don't share your perception of value. Cite as much history as you like. There is no standard valuation or system of measure to value digital items, especially across different companies. You wrote a lot of worthless fodder hoping to sway at least somebody.
Truth: ZOS will price their digital goods at whatever they like, and people will buy it. What other games do with their goods is irrelevent in the eyes of the market right now. Hell, someone mentioned Matt Firor (sp?), But you seem to forget the person in charge of pricing the cash shop is the same person responsible for SWTOR's.
And I'm aware that ZOS will price their digital goods whatever they deem appropriate. This does not mean that doing so is going to be welcomed with open arms nor should it. Also, I'm aware that there is no standard of valuation across digital goods. Never argued that there is.
I did however use history in this genre as a means of comparing, to assess whether or not we're getting more bang for our buck in the present compared to 10 years ago. I've come to the conclusion we aren't based on the evidence. As consumers, we should expect better.PC and PS4 (bring back character transfers please?)
Templar Extraordinaire0 -
AlMcFly✭✭✭✭✭
✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »I did however use history in this genre as a means of comparing, to assess whether or not we're getting more bang for our buck in the present compared to 10 years ago. I've come to the conclusion we aren't based on the evidence. As consumers, we should expect better.
I find that a bit ironic. 10 years ago? 2007? The year of Fallout 3, Elder Scrolls: Shivering Isles expansion, Lord of the Rings online and Age of Conan launch? What was the average price of single-player games in 2007? Do you remember? I do. ~$60. What about mmorpgs? ~$60 for the base game, and $15 per month.
Fast forward to 2017. How much is ESO Morrowind? Anyone want to answer that? Can you buy it for $60? Yes, you can. How much is ESO+? Yep, that's right. $15 per month.
Do you know what the estimated cost of producing ESO is? Somewhere between 200 - 500 million. Do you think Lord of the Rings online came even close to costing that much to produce? Hell, the three Hobbit movies cost around $500 million.
With your pseudo-intellectual ***, you actually have the gall to argue gamers "aren't" getting more "bang for their buck" than they were 10 years ago? gtfo of here.
Edited by AlMcFly on February 8, 2017 4:32AM1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Did DAOC even have a cash shop? Cash shops are pretty much a staple of MMOs now so I would get used to them and that at least some part of any housing system in new MMOs will ties to the cash shop. If a cash shop was added it would have been much simpler that cash shops of the current age of MMOs.
Instanced housing is also more normal these days, Granted it is easier that individual housing like DAOC for starters.
ESO does have housing for every budget for in game gold and almost every budget concerning crowns (granted some players have no crowns). There are players that have enough gold to buy to buy Manors out right with gold, even all three manors.
There are aspects of housing that would be good changes but being instanced and the price is not among that. I am actually surprised the crown prices furnished are as low as they are.
No. DAOC did not have a cash shop. DAOC existed and achieved it's prime long before cash shops were the norm. I'm also not opposed to cash shops. I do find the cash shop for ESO to be absurdly expensive.
I don't find the in game costs for houses to be absurd. I find the investment for furniture to be a larger issue.
I understand why instance based housing was chosen. However, it is less impressive and immersive that way. DAOC'S model was preferable.
The biggest issue for ESO is that the crown ratio is absurdly high. It's a lot of money for 5000 crowns. The cash shop in ESO is just unnecessarily expensive as a whole. Not limited to Homestead.
I'd rather they scrap the free DLC model. And provide large yearly expansion packs at a substantial price. Along with making crowns more affordable.
@austinwalter87ub17_ESO
Crown pricing is similar to other MMOs, and pretty much the same as another large MMO, SWTOR. Crowns are not extreemly costly, last I paid was about $25 USD for 5k crowns. While not cheap, people do pay more.
I do kinda agree on the DLC model. They could do some of the following:- Lock new content behind the subscription wall for a year so anyone who wants to play it early has to subscribe
- Add more perks to ESO+ such as an armory to store armor and weapons similar to the crafting bag for matts and add a another similar bag for holding housing furnishings. (some of this point may come to ESO+ regardless)
- Make PvP and trials available via subscription and purchasing a weekly pass via the crown store. per character to participate in those activities if not subscribed.
Yes, there are ways to incentivize subscription without the constant DLC packages. It does not matter how they do it, someone will not be happy with it. We have what we have.0 -
Preyfar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't mind the Crown Store, but I do feel like ESO is taking more of a Candy Crush approach, constantly poking the player "Hey, is it payday? Gimme some cash! "Pssst. Yo, man. You got a dollar I can have?" It's just starting to get whelming. There are now three "separate" cash stores in game. There's the Crown Store, the Crown Crates (an offset of the Crown Store) and now the Macy's Furnishings Department. And I feel like I'm being nickle-and-dimed for basic stuff. Why is a Khajiit desk about $2 real cash?
The entire pricing system really just makes no sense. I've gone from wanting to support ZOS to being turned away.1 -
SirIronclad✭✭✭The entire pricing system really just makes no sense. I've gone from wanting to support ZOS to being turned away.
And that really sucks considering we just got all hyped for Morrowind...1 -
Molec✭✭✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »Homestead is welcome in ESO. I have absolutely 0 objections to Homestead coming to ESO. I do however have strong criticism of implementation as well as the business model behind it.
The biggest criticism has to be the pricing. Absolutely horrendous when paired with the amount of grind necessary for furniture. I'm a big time free market capitalist, and I do believe that businesses should seek profit as well as keeping all of it. The profit motive is a wonderful thing, and is a pinnacle to understanding free market economics. Human beings are driven by the profit motive. From companies like ZOS all the way down to individual players, we all seek to profit in one way or another. However, consumers know when there isn't value to be had in a product or service. And that is the case with Homestead. It's 2017, and you've provided us with housing with less utility and functionality than games from 2001.
Don't believe me?
Ask Matt Firor. He has been highly influential in the direction of ESO. He also came from a game called Dark Age of Camelot. A game which still lives on in legend as of today. Renowned for its PVP, and still wins awards today. Dark Age of Camelot also had housing. It was wonderful.
DAOC Housing:
-Wasn't instanced based. Your house was placed on a lot within a block of lots. The block could consist of a string of houses circling a lake for example. All players could see your house. As well as all the decorations and guild tapestry you placed on it.
-You had your own merchants to sell your wares. You placed a consignment merchant on your patio of your house. Players could travel to your house and browse your wares. At the beginning of the zone, players could search all wares in your community of all sellers at a kiosk. They could also purchase the wares directly from the kiosk for additional fees. If not, they would have to run to your house and purchase it directly from your merchant to save some money.
-There was tiers of houses to show off your status. Small and meager homes. Large homes, etc.
-There was no cash shop to motivate housing. Dropping real money on housing didn't exist. The game was entirely funded through box sales and subscriptions. Yet, the housing was still provided without all the expensive strings attached.
The horrendous guild and guild trader system of ESO pales in comparison to that of DAOC'S market and utility of housing. There is no such thing as guild pride in ESO. You're in 5 different guilds. The merchants in DAOC were tied to housing. This allowed guilds to own guild houses as well as profit from their merchant.
With the implementation of Homestead it highlights these issues regarding guilds and traders. It highlights the fact that better systems have been done in the past, by some of your own employees ZOS, without even charging people additional for it.
People need to start voting with their wallets. You are paying more now, in 2017, for less than what people did back in the early 2000s. The pay walls attached to Homestead are not a value. It's a slap in the face to even market it as such.
The amount of grind blatantly implemented to push people towards a crown store purchase is very noticeable to the masses. People don't respond well to this, including myself as a free market capitalist. The product itself should incentivize purchases out of sheer awesomeness. Not due to the grind which sucks the fun out of it. It makes your customers feel entrapped and coerced ZOS.
Utility will be added but charged for in the crown store like it is already, homestead is the shell and the finishing touches are 100% on the cards. Just be prepared to pay $$$.PC-EU 666cp+
Molec - Dunmer Magika Sorc
Lucius Bal - Altmer Magika DK
Avborh - Breton Magika Templar
Skorun - Altmer Magika NB
Darum-Zar - Khajiit Stamina DK
Nephi Dagon - Argonian Mag Templar
Warden of Red Mountain - Bosmer Stamina Warden
Warden of Dagoth-Ur - Altmer Magika Warden
George Carlin — "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"0 -
willlienellson✭✭✭✭✭
Interestingly, I've only heard of people with items like this (bottles, mugs, etc) and only getting them from picking pockets.
I personally looted/stole over 300 items today and passed on another 200 that weren't worth picking up, and zero out of 500 were furnishings.
I was looting from trunks, chests, wardrobes, desks, etc.0 -
Zyrudin✭✭✭✭austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »I did however use history in this genre as a means of comparing, to assess whether or not we're getting more bang for our buck in the present compared to 10 years ago. I've come to the conclusion we aren't based on the evidence. As consumers, we should expect better.
«If you don't know history, then you don't know anything. You are a leaf that doesn't know it is part of a tree.» - Michael CrichtonI find that a bit ironic. 10 years ago? 2007? The year of Fallout 3, Elder Scrolls: Shivering Isles expansion, Lord of the Rings online and Age of Conan launch? What was the average price of single-player games in 2007? Do you remember? I do. ~$60. What about mmorpgs? ~$60 for the base game, and $15 per month.
Fast forward to 2017. How much is ESO Morrowind? Anyone want to answer that? Can you buy it for $60? Yes, you can. How much is ESO+? Yep, that's right. $15 per month.
Do you know what the estimated cost of producing ESO is? Somewhere between 200 - 500 million. Do you think Lord of the Rings online came even close to costing that much to produce? Hell, the three Hobbit movies cost around $500 million.
With your pseudo-intellectual ***, you actually have the gall to argue gamers "aren't" getting more "bang for their buck" than they were 10 years ago? gtfo of here.
Take into consideration, though, that access to the same amount of $ on part of gamers now, is harder than it was back then.
I of course think ZOE needs to make money and will continue to use their shop to do so, which seems to make sense in the present model.
However, regarding the "value" of homestead, let me just say that I bought a house in the closest location to essentials, saw the interface, realized what I was going to need to get the items I wanted (which will be all utility and practical, like crafting stations, since the house is instanced and nobody is going to look at it anyway) and shrugged, knowing that I will only have it months from now and that it doesn't really matter, because I have an empty walled space that I can port to, that is close to the essentials I need.
Now, the question is: if housing was uninstanced, like the OP stated regarding previous games, and the grind was softer, you'd probably see even more people interested in the decorations and that would mean more crown store customers, one way or another.Edited by Zyrudin on February 8, 2017 9:42AM1 -
Tasear✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nimander99 wrote: »Unsent.Soul wrote: »Where were you at a month ago?
I purposefully ignored/avoided mention of housing and its mechanics costs etc. (I know you weren't addressing me but I feel like answering your question anyways) I wanted to be pleasantly surprised by everything, I figured this would be a lay up homerun for ZeniMax.
I am actually pretty shocked at the whole system (as it stands now), surprised by housing items not being account tab'd like other cosmetics, surprised that none of the theiveable items can be placed in a home (what a missed opportunity!), surprised by how expensive everything is (bleh), surprised that achievements have been tied in the way they are... and not the way I expected.
Idk, its weird, maybe housing will improve... but so far all I see is a Crown Store buy everything gobbeldygoop.
Here's to hoping housing gets improved upon!
P.S: Seriously cant believe steal-able items aren't placeable... I mean, none? I literally expected this to be a thing, cause its a Scrolls game
That's not true, there aren't alot but I meet a theif today who gave me an ink well, and saw scholar papers for sell.Edited by Tasear on February 8, 2017 11:00AM0 -
Riejael✭✭✭✭✭ESO damn near copied EQ2's housing system which IS the best on the market. FFXIV, EQ1, and DAOC do neighborhood housing which sucks. Sorry if I'm taking a dump on nostalgia but it does. In those systems you have to be lucky to get a plot to come available.
If you have gold or crowns ready you should be able to get a house when you want it. Not wait for someone to go inactive, not pay rent, or whatever just because they used a clicking macro on server opening.
As for lack of functionality. Housing isn't PVP. Housing isn't even PVE. Instead it is RP content. If you don't see the value in housing, go back to Cyrodil, Questing, Dungeoning, or Trials and forget it exists. Its a bone thrown to the role players (and to those who just like dinking around with housing). They will spend an inordinate amount of cash on what you all might think is dumb or pointless. To them it holds real value.
But it supports the game and doesn't affect balance anywhere, its a win/win situation. Your game gets supported by someone else and doesn't affect the game you've been playing all along. And since furniture and housing itself is already coded, the only dev's time that is taken up is modelers and artists. So new content isn't slowed down.2
