Why is every Magicka DPS mostly the same?

cpuScientist · February 2017

The sets are the same. BSW and 4 moon dancer 5 If Templar. It's either grothdar or illambris. Valkyn if you nasty. And then alot of similar skills. HOWEVER the variety is in the rotation. The templar has a simple rotation that delivers if your lazy and a more complex rotation if your tryhard. Sorcs have to watch for procs and keep up a 3.5 second dot that if you recast you lose DPS (next patch changed it makes it *** boring) new EZ mode is the sorc sigh. DK you have to load up more dots and then spam it's easy once you get used to it but very different rotation. And Nightblade has to work around a clunky arrow proc along with dots that's have different timers that just wrecks a rotation if done in correctly.

The difference is in the rotation not the gear and skills.

Stam the difference is in the imagination.

Seraphayel · February 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I think you need to find something else to do with your time. It is clear that ESO is not for you and this ludicrous idea you have that the very unique class skills in every builds is the same merely because they do damage.

No, I don't. I just stated things as they are in game. The “very unique class skills“ are far from unique in their effects when directly compared to those of other classes. There are unique class skills, indeed, but they're not used in the (top) builds because they're either too weak or rather PvP focused.

AzraelKrieg · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

Can someone tell me why nearly all Magicka builds are 50-60% the same even with different classes? I was looking for builds and build ideas in the last weeks and one thing really baffled me: 9/10 builds are literally the same. Those builds follow the same pattern, same skills, same weapon choices, same set choices - not even the class matters anymore. I know this is called "meta" but isn't this a huge problem in ESO?

Most Magicka builds follow this scheme:

Mundus Stone: The Thief

Thief? What magicka builds actually use Thief? I haven't found a single magicka player that uses it. It's either Atronach, Mage or Apprentice and when using Twice Born Star, a combination of 2 of those three.

hedna123b14_ESO · February 2017

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Can someone tell me why nearly all Magicka builds are 50-60% the same even with different classes? I was looking for builds and build ideas in the last weeks and one thing really baffled me: 9/10 builds are literally the same. Those builds follow the same pattern, same skills, same weapon choices, same set choices - not even the class matters anymore. I know this is called "meta" but isn't this a huge problem in ESO?

Most Magicka builds follow this scheme:

Mundus Stone: The Thief

Thief? What magicka builds actually use Thief? I haven't found a single magicka player that uses it. It's either Atronach, Mage or Apprentice and when using Twice Born Star, a combination of 2 of those three.

Please stop trolling

Turelus · February 2017

Because every time something is different the community complains their class doesn't work like that other class.

greylox · February 2017

It's boring as hell and Stam is even worse. Problem is the top dungeons need top DPS and this is the only way to get it which is why I rarely run them. There isn't enough skills in this game so people are forced to use the same ones as well.

Draqone · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

I know players tend to have the "best" builds for "best" damage but why is it so limited in ESO? This game was advertised as "play how you want" (yes, we know that was never a thing really) but since 12 (?) months or so Magicka DPS has become flat and boring because you literally have 4-5 "must have" skills or items, maybe more.

So... what do you think?

Do you like how it is? Do you think ZOS needs to revaluate many skills? Do you feel a bit bored by the limitations?

The more freedom you give people the more cookiecutter the builds are.

ESO does allow you to play how you want, and most people in endgame trials want to have the highest DPS so naturally they will take the highest DPS skills. Unless the skills are identical, which would make the game boring, there will always be a skill that is better, and people will use the better skill because in ESO most skills are accessible to everyone.

You just have to understand that "play how you want" doesn't mean "every skill is equal". Some skills are more equal than other.

fred4 · February 2017

I think really what this thread highlights is that people are far too competitive and not focused enough on having fun. If you cared to make sub-optimal but fun to play builds you wouldn't feel it's all the same. Unless you are talking about the super-hard content, such as vMOL, why not?

STEVIL · February 2017

Have you noticed how many cardiologists use bp machinest and have ekg at the ready?
Have you noticed how many opthamologist have that eye surface topology scanner?
Have you noticed how many skydivers use parachutes?

Just pointing out you started with a specigic role high dps and specific source magica and are amazed at the similarities in the gear they choose (ones optimized to beef that role) and the selection of skills they choose (again optimizing performance in that role) and using very generic descriptors come to this sameness thing.

The conclusion you could reach instead is how nice it is that all the classes can do this role.

Cadbury · February 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Have you noticed how many cardiologists use bp machinest and have ekg at the ready?
Have you noticed how many opthamologist have that eye surface topology scanner?
Have you noticed how many skydivers use parachutes?

I've been saying for years that Radiologists need a buff.

DreadKnight · February 2017

Two main issues from my point of view:

1. The Destro Ulti is too powerful not to use - so almost ALL magicka builds use it. Something that is said in nearly every Mag build video I've seen post it's introduction. This then leads to using Blockade as most of the other Destro staff skills are lacklustre.
2. In terms of other class skills, again the most powerful ones are always used because most of the other class skills are lacklustre. Most classes have a couple of good skills, and a bunch of useless ones.

They need to BALANCE the skills across classes to encourage diversity. Diversity does not just come from introducing loads of new (and mostly useless) sets.

failkiwib16_ESO · February 2017

I've seen 35k+ dps magicka DD's who don't weave, I don't think we have lack of options in this game, it is much rather a deliberate choice from the general to go with the same builds that work, because then they don't have to go through a hell time of testing, before they find something that works for them.

Seraphayel · February 2017

DreadKnight wrote: »

Two main issues from my point of view:

1. The Destro Ulti is too powerful not to use - so almost ALL magicka builds use it. Something that is said in nearly every Mag build video I've seen post it's introduction. This then leads to using Blockade as most of the other Destro staff skills are lacklustre.
2. In terms of other class skills, again the most powerful ones are always used because most of the other class skills are lacklustre. Most classes have a couple of good skills, and a bunch of useless ones.

They need to BALANCE the skills across classes to encourage diversity. Diversity does not just come from introducing loads of new (and mostly useless) sets.

Thank you, this sums it up pretty good. My intention was too put focus on the skills that are either too strong or too weak. Skills like Meteor or Destro ult, Blockade or Inner Light. Those skills must not be nerfed but others must be buffed so that they're not so dominant in every build anymore.

Masel · February 2017

The only thing that bothers me is that literally every magicka build has to use burning spellweave... There is no way around that set to be viable.

SwimsWithMemes · February 2017

DKs have more DOTs and crowd control utility. Sorcs get more shields and positioning, so they can concetrate less on staying alive. Templars get a lot of self sustain. NB are currently worse sorcs but soon they will be better sorcs.

How many viable gear sets do you want?

Seraphayel · February 2017

strebor2095 wrote: »

How many viable gear sets do you want?

I think the problem here is not the quantity of sets but the quality. There are dozens of sets in game yet only a handful are used because they're either too strong or the others are too weak. That's the problem. Why even have 30 sets when 25 of them are underperforming and tend to be useless? I'd love to see 30 of 30 sets be somewhat viable or at least more than 50%. It's sad that they designed all those sets but nobody uses them because they're not good enough.

oibam · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

strebor2095 wrote: »

How many viable gear sets do you want?

I think the problem here is not the quantity of sets but the quality. There are dozens of sets in game yet only a handful are used because they're either too strong or the others are too weak. That's the problem. Why even have 30 sets when 25 of them are underperforming and tend to be useless? I'd love to see 30 of 30 sets be somewhat viable or at least more than 50%. It's sad that they designed all those sets but nobody uses them because they're not good enough.

This.

So many sets with interesting ideas for unique and different playstyles.

Example:

But they are too weak compared to the BiS sets. So ESO has so many sets, but only 10% are playable. And that's why almost all players play the same boring meta sets.

Take a look at this set:

High and easy proc chance, high spell damage proc, extra dot proc, long proc duration, short cooldown. I mean, how is that IN LINE with other sets? Who designed this set?

Rabbit_Gamer · February 2017

What pisses me off about equipment is how little impact player-crafted stuff has.
Especially now that Housing is coming since one of the "highlights" of having a
big house is being able to put the special crafting stations in the house.

Crafters seriously need more power. Are you farming a Spellweave set but keep
getting Prosperous as your Trait? Take it to a player Crafter and let them change
it for you, etc.

Sure, we can upgrade equipment (except jewelry, which still pisses me off), but that's
really our only useful function right now. But hey, thank god I can put those stations
in my 5000+ Crown home!

waterfairy · February 2017

I don't use any of those sets on my mag sorc as I loathe proc sets. I only use a couple of the skills you listed but otherwise I use what works for me like a defending lightning staff.

Bam_Bam · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

Can someone tell me why nearly all Magicka builds are 50-60% the same even with different classes? I was looking for builds and build ideas in the last weeks and one thing really baffled me: 9/10 builds are literally the same. Those builds follow the same pattern, same skills, same weapon choices, same set choices - not even the class matters anymore. I know this is called "meta" but isn't this a huge problem in ESO?

Most Magicka builds follow this scheme:

Mundus Stone: The Thief

Weapons: Fire Staff + Lightning / Restoration Staff

Sets: Ilambris, Grothdarr, Valkyn Skoria, Burning Spellweave,

Skills:

One spammable skill: Force Pulse or class spammable (Funnel Health, Dark Flare, Lava Lash)
Two AoE ground target skills: Wall of Elements + class AoE (Eruption, Twisting Path, Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spear)
Flex slot (mostly DoTs or proc abilities): Merciless Resolve, Crystal Fragments, Reflective Light, Burning Embers
Finisher: Impale, Mage's Wrath, Radiant Destruction
Crit / Magicka boost: Inner Light and / or class skills (Inferno, Bound Aegis)
Ultimate: Meteor / Elemental Rage

+ healing abilities / shields on the off bar (Healing Ward, Combat Prayer, Dampen Magic, Hardened Ward etc.)

_____________________________

Isn't this super boring? In the end every class has the exact same playstyle for Magicka DPS (in PvE). There is literally no difference. Throw your DoTs and keep spamming your fillers, throw an ultimate, rinse and repeat. It doesn't matter if you're a Sorcerer, Templar, Dragon Knight or Nightblade. You're doing the same rotation with mostly the same skills on all of them. If you arrange your skills right you could play all four classes with eyes closed due to their similarities when it comes to endgame PvE builds.

I know players tend to have the "best" builds for "best" damage but why is it so limited in ESO? This game was advertised as "play how you want" (yes, we know that was never a thing really) but since 12 (?) months or so Magicka DPS has become flat and boring because you literally have 4-5 "must have" skills or items, maybe more.

Why isn't Zenimax adressing this problem and trying to fix this? I mean, do all of you want to play the same as every other Magicka DPS out there? I don't know how it is for Stamina, maybe the same, maybe worse, but as a Magicka DPS I feel limited by the game because it forces me to use skills or items I don't really want to use.

This might be a rant thread for many players out there but I just wanted to discuss this issue. I want your opinion and I really would like to enforce a discussion about this topic (feel free to open up a Stamina thread as well if you think it's necessary). There are soooooooo many skills in game but players only use 20-30% because the rest of them is bad, very bad, terribad etc. - ZOS tries to "fix" these problems, take Scalding Rune as an example. They buffed the DoT damage by 30% in Homestead but... 30% of nothing is still nothing. So why are they ignoring so many skills while they totally overpower others (e.g. Puncturing Sweep - super cheap, AoE, amazing damage plus additional healing - this skill combines all of what's wrong with the balancing in this game).

So... what do you think?

Do you like how it is? Do you think ZOS needs to revaluate many skills? Do you feel a bit bored by the limitations?

My magica templar doesn't use those weapons or those skills.

Faulgor · February 2017

Honestly I'm scratching my head a bit, because I thought the difference in build diversity compared to other MMOs would be apparent. But if you guys see that differently it's either because there is more diversity than I think or it's because modern MMOs suck and I just don't know about it.

As I said my MMO experience is basically limited to Ragnarok Online, but even back then there different ways to "deal damage".
You had builds that focused on

attackspeed (Assassin, Falcon Hunter, 2h Knights, Spear Crusader, Blacksmith, etc),
critical hits (Katar Assassin, certain Blacksmiths, etc),
low cast times (Wizard, ME and TU Priest, certain Monks, Sage, etc),
skill procs (Dual Dagger Assassin, Combo Monk, Falcon Hunter, etc),
skill spam (Double Strafe Hunter, Spear Knight, Bolt Sage, Occult Monk, etc)
unique skills (Asura Monk (!))

In ESO there is no attackspeed, casttime is present but irrelevant because it's confined to bad skills, skill procs require no dedicated builds but are just class flavor (Burning Light, Implosion) and no single skill is unique enough that it would warrant its own build (besides Blazplar perhaps, but that's not a PvE build).
So what you end up with is that every DD goes for high crit and skill spam - what you might call a rotation. Which also means that every DD build needs a way to sustain that spam because there is no alternative to that gameplay, and thus you get the now year-long pleas to "improve sustain on class x y and z".
But maybe I'm just ignorant.

Man, now I miss my Asura Monk lol.

Seraphayel · February 2017

@Faulgor

Thank you. That's exactly what I meant.

Kodrac · February 2017

Because people cry. Why does so and so get a heal and I don't? Why does other class get shields and I don't? Whaaa! So they make every class homogeneous to appease the whiners.

Anhedonie · February 2017

You should check out stamina classes then.
Magicka builds have some degree of variety in comparison.

visionality · February 2017

PVE is a very restrictive environment leaving nothing to surprise and very little to creativity. NPCs will just follow their programmed actions, and you'll never see the SO-Serpent running away and coming back with a 50 man zerg or two gankers that instakill your healers while you obliviously dps in front of them. Due to that predictability, every DD can go for maximum DPS without caring much about survivability, ressource-management or escaping strategies.

If you want build variety, start small-scale PVP (not ganking).

DreadKnight · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

DreadKnight wrote: »

Two main issues from my point of view:

1. The Destro Ulti is too powerful not to use - so almost ALL magicka builds use it. Something that is said in nearly every Mag build video I've seen post it's introduction. This then leads to using Blockade as most of the other Destro staff skills are lacklustre.
2. In terms of other class skills, again the most powerful ones are always used because most of the other class skills are lacklustre. Most classes have a couple of good skills, and a bunch of useless ones.

They need to BALANCE the skills across classes to encourage diversity. Diversity does not just come from introducing loads of new (and mostly useless) sets.

Thank you, this sums it up pretty good. My intention was too put focus on the skills that are either too strong or too weak. Skills like Meteor or Destro ult, Blockade or Inner Light. Those skills must not be nerfed but others must be buffed so that they're not so dominant in every build anymore.

Absolutely 100% agree.

Work on (buff) other class skills to make them more interesting and encourage their use = BUILD & SKILL DIVERSITY.

ZOS seems to think that Build Diversity just comes from sets. It doesn't and shouldn't.

Bislobo · February 2017

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Have you seen stam builds?

dday3six · February 2017

Faulgor wrote: »

Honestly I'm scratching my head a bit, because I thought the difference in build diversity compared to other MMOs would be apparent. But if you guys see that differently it's either because there is more diversity than I think or it's because modern MMOs suck and I just don't know about it.

As I said my MMO experience is basically limited to Ragnarok Online, but even back then there different ways to "deal damage".
You had builds that focused on
attackspeed (Assassin, Falcon Hunter, 2h Knights, Spear Crusader, Blacksmith, etc),

critical hits (Katar Assassin, certain Blacksmiths, etc),

low cast times (Wizard, ME and TU Priest, certain Monks, Sage, etc),

skill procs (Dual Dagger Assassin, Combo Monk, Falcon Hunter, etc),

skill spam (Double Strafe Hunter, Spear Knight, Bolt Sage, Occult Monk, etc)

unique skills (Asura Monk (!))

In ESO there is no attackspeed, casttime is present but irrelevant because it's confined to bad skills, skill procs require no dedicated builds but are just class flavor (Burning Light, Implosion) and no single skill is unique enough that it would warrant its own build (besides Blazplar perhaps, but that's not a PvE build).
So what you end up with is that every DD goes for high crit and skill spam - what you might call a rotation. Which also means that every DD build needs a way to sustain that spam because there is no alternative to that gameplay, and thus you get the now year-long pleas to "improve sustain on class x y and z".
But maybe I'm just ignorant.

Man, now I miss my Asura Monk lol.

Whether in PVE or PVP if you're just spamming skills you're doing it wrong if you're aiming for even marginal effectiveness in ESO.

In PVE it's very much a rotation that is deliberate, methodical, and purposely done. Botching your rotation by doing things such as missing buffs and clipping or forgetting to reapply dots continuously will noticeably impact DPS output. A solid, and practiced rotation is what separates high dps from low dps. The two biggest failing of a DPS are lacking situational awareness and slop in their rotation.

In PVP it's focused aggression and a battle of attrition. Spamming nets you out of resources and that gets you dead.

I'll be honest it seems your understanding of the finer point of combat in ESO is very lacking.

daedalusAI · February 2017

Seraphayel wrote: »

strebor2095 wrote: »

How many viable gear sets do you want?

I think the problem here is not the quantity of sets but the quality. There are dozens of sets in game yet only a handful are used because they're either too strong or the others are too weak. That's the problem. Why even have 30 sets when 25 of them are underperforming and tend to be useless? I'd love to see 30 of 30 sets be somewhat viable or at least more than 50%. It's sad that they designed all those sets but nobody uses them because they're not good enough.

I you feel the need to flood the game with more pointless than actually useful sets there is something wrong. I'm still questing through the zones and I already can't be bothered to browse through a huge lists of sets just to find the few chosen ones that are so godly when compared to the rest that you are almost forced to use them.

As for the point of build diversity: there is next to none if you consider the actual performance of each skill or skill line:

2h: you can hit enemies but it's easily outperformed by bow and dual wield
1h&shield: tank line, which might find uses in pvp
dual wield: your main stamina skill line
bow: your other main stamina skill line
destruction staff: your only choice for magicka dps in a weapon line
restoration staff: your only choice for heals in a weapon line

With only 6 weapon skill lines you're already locked into some of them because there is just no alternative e.g. a pure magicka build has no use for 2h or bow due to the fact that the former utilizes spell-power and the latter uses weapon damage and both scale off their main attribute of magicka/stamina.

The other issue is that the the additional skill lines other than class skills barely offer some sort of build diversity:

Undaunted:

Support skills which require the use of their synergy for full effectiveness
Range taunt

Mages Guild:

Meteor: strong ultimate for big damage
Mage light: critical rating
Entropy: dot effect is laughable(no damage over 12secs) and only useful for the major sorcery buff it provides
Fire rune: didn't bother to even use this one so far
Equilibrium: a simple resource swapping ability

Fighters Guild:

Dawnbreaker: good damage for a moderate ultimate cost
Silver bolt: I've yet to see its usefulness in a PvE environment where I just could spam a weapon skill filler
Circle of protection: has that skill actually some uses? So far I've not seen a potential application
Expert hunter: like mage light only used for its passive effect of critical rating
Trap Beast: mainly used for the benefit of minor force

Vampire: 1 leech, 1 defensive ability and 1 aoe damage ultimate - the rest are only passives to lessen the drawback of being a vampire, reducing damage when below a certain threshold and increasing resource recovery. Overall pretty bland and boring for something that should be and play like a vampire.

Werewolf: You only have access to its abilities during your transformation which renders the skill line largely unusable for me. Yes you can extend the duration by devouring - but what's the point in a whole skill line that is only usable when you have enough ultimate to use? The 15% stamina recovery for a slotted transformation is quite laughable in light of that.
And I still don't know how werewolf actually functions: which of your armor/class skills/what-have-you passives are actually getting transferred over during your time as a werewolf. How does a weapon affect your werewolf form?

Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild only offer passives to improve their respective garnish functions of killing NPCs/lockpicking and fencing items.

Ledgermain is only useful if you're actually a thief as your main profession.

Soul magic: soul trap is another dot that is laughable. As for soul strike I don't know because I never use it.

Armor skills with defensive ultimates and passively improving your defenses/stats.

Alliance War offers a few useful skills like war horn, caltrops and the only available stamina healing skill in vigor(as if there are no better places for such a skill to be).

As for class skills: it's always cherry-picking between dots, nukes, aoe skills, executes and buffs of which every class has an almost identical set only themed differently - and if a specific class doesn't have one of those you have to resort to the other limited skill lines of which only a few skills are actually useful.

Magicka dps: wall of elements, meteor, elemental storm - combined with other flavor skills.
Stamina dps: whirlwind, twin slashes, poison arrow, volley - combined with other flavor skills.

Pretty bland if you consider how many skill lines there are.

Faulgor · February 2017

dday3six wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Honestly I'm scratching my head a bit, because I thought the difference in build diversity compared to other MMOs would be apparent. But if you guys see that differently it's either because there is more diversity than I think or it's because modern MMOs suck and I just don't know about it.

As I said my MMO experience is basically limited to Ragnarok Online, but even back then there different ways to "deal damage".
You had builds that focused on
attackspeed (Assassin, Falcon Hunter, 2h Knights, Spear Crusader, Blacksmith, etc),

critical hits (Katar Assassin, certain Blacksmiths, etc),

low cast times (Wizard, ME and TU Priest, certain Monks, Sage, etc),

skill procs (Dual Dagger Assassin, Combo Monk, Falcon Hunter, etc),

skill spam (Double Strafe Hunter, Spear Knight, Bolt Sage, Occult Monk, etc)

unique skills (Asura Monk (!))

In ESO there is no attackspeed, casttime is present but irrelevant because it's confined to bad skills, skill procs require no dedicated builds but are just class flavor (Burning Light, Implosion) and no single skill is unique enough that it would warrant its own build (besides Blazplar perhaps, but that's not a PvE build).
So what you end up with is that every DD goes for high crit and skill spam - what you might call a rotation. Which also means that every DD build needs a way to sustain that spam because there is no alternative to that gameplay, and thus you get the now year-long pleas to "improve sustain on class x y and z".
But maybe I'm just ignorant.

Man, now I miss my Asura Monk lol.

Whether in PVE or PVP if you're just spamming skills you're doing it wrong if you're aiming for even marginal effectiveness in ESO.

In PVE it's very much a rotation that is deliberate, methodical, and purposely done. Botching your rotation by doing things such as missing buffs and clipping or forgetting to reapply dots continuously will noticeably impact DPS output. A solid, and practiced rotation is what separates high dps from low dps. The two biggest failing of a DPS are lacking situational awareness and slop in their rotation.

In PVP it's focused aggression and a battle of attrition. Spamming nets you out of resources and that gets you dead.

I'll be honest it seems your understanding of the finer point of combat in ESO is very lacking.

In relation to other RPG systems, all of that is still what I called "skill spam" in my post, as that is the defining source of the damage. I'm well aware of the necessity of rotations for max dps. Even RO had lots of self-buffs, although they usually lasted much longer than ESO's and thus were rarely part of a rotation.