esotoon wrote: »

Can you name one B2P MMO that has a voluntary sub that does this?

sadownik wrote: »

This is the stinking pile of igorance, half truths and lies. lets start with all companies do that. Name 1 b2p MMO that has optional sub and still charges subbers for additional content, please do ill wait.

ADarklore wrote: »

For those who didn't see Matt Firor's article in which he addressed this. (bold/italic for emphasis)

He says, "As all of you long time players know, we have never been shy about evolving ESO over time by introducing new concepts, new designs, and doing what we need to do to make sure that ESO remains awesome and relevant. So, in 2017, we are going to make a major addition to the way content is delivered to you.

"In the past, we've released four major updates per year, most with an associated DLC. This has produced great DLC like Orsinium, Thieves Guild, and Dark Brotherhood for players in a regular cadence, and has been the perfect way to update the game with larger changes like One Tamriel. This cadence is perfect for smaller additions, but we've found that this approach is so aggressive that it hamstrings us a bit when it comes to introducing updates larger than DLC – that is, updates that include new content as well as features like system changes, new abilities, and new classes. This is why we are evolving to deliver some updates as “Chapters," with the target of having one Chapter per year.

"In any other game of this type, these would be called “expansions" – but ESO is a game unlike any other. Because ESO is not level-based, Chapters don't fit the general definition of an “expansion," which typically, in MMO-speak, means it is aimed only at existing (and usually high level) players. Chapters in ESO are different. Each ESO Chapter will feature a self-contained story and zone that can be experienced by itself without needing to travel out to the main game. Our content is never level-gated, which means you can play Chapters with an existing character, or a completely new one.

"Expect ESO Chapters to introduce things like new game systems, new classes, and a ton of new content. For example, our new Chapter, ESO: Morrowind, contains a new class (the Warden), small-scale PvP Battlegrounds, and of course, a completely new zone to explore.

"Each Chapter will be available at retail complete with new box art and packaging. It will contain the Chapter and will include the original game. All standard DLC will still be purchased from the Crown Store or be available to ESO Plus members as part of the subscription, but new Chapter content is available only via retail (including digital retail) game or upgrade purchase if you already own ESO. "


As you can see, Matt states that they are not shy about evolving ESO, which means they are free to make changes at any time for any reason, which is also stated in the game's TOS that everyone has to agree to before being able to play.

Also note the paragraph at the bottom that Matt CLEARLY states that each year ESO will receive ONE new 'chapter' which must be paid for... so for people who are complaining about subscribing and not getting free content, you are now forewarned.

sadownik wrote: »

Danikat wrote: »

In the words of Weird Al Yankovic "Awww man I hate it when I'm right!"

I was extremely surprised a few months ago to see people on this forum talking excitedly about rumours of an expansion on the horizon and how great it'd be if Vvardenfell was an expansion instead of just a DLC.

It seemed obvious to me that an expansion would not be included in ESO Plus and subscribers would have to pay extra for it, since that's how every other game does it. (And since an expansion and DLC is functionally the same - so there had to be another difference to justify the different name.)

On the one hand I feel entirely justified in my decision not to sub and only purchase things directly when I want them, on the other hand I feel terrible for all the people who were surprised by this.

Name 1 b2p MMO that has an optional sub system and additionally charges subbers for content?

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Support the game or don't.

Anyone who has any sense could tell you this was going to happen eventually. IF you chose to believe there would never be a full-blown expansion....well then refer to the first part.

I never thought they would just duck-tape a few things together they were already working on as DLC, combine that with a class that was supposed to be included at launch, then call it an expansion.

No that quite surprised me.

FixTheTree wrote: »

Yes. Yes. ESO+ will include all future content
Future
Content
Whether you call it an expansion or dlc it's contained in the game. Thus they done messed up in their phrasing for advertising ESO+. Check mate lawyer person.
Does this mean I'm gonna do anything about it? Probably
Not.

Pibbles wrote: »

esotoon wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

Not sure about the 4 DLC per year statement either. It could be 4 updates per year that includes free ones like 1T and Homestead.

1t and Homestead are not DLCs. They are changes to the base game. Think of it like this, if you go out and buy the base game from a shop today (well ok, after Homestead is released *g*), would you also need to download additional content to get access to 1T and Homestead?

Again if that's the only reason you sub then you can call it off anytime.

This is very true. However, what if we have been subbed for the past 6 months without receiving the 2 promised quarterly DLCs? Do we not have a right to be a little upset about that? We can indeed unsub, but we won't be getting our money back.

^^ That's the issue for me, they've not delivered any DLC for quite some time, the first time they do, they reclassify it to avoid having to give it to sub holders. Most certainly when I took out my sub the wording was very clear that it included 'access to all downloadable content' (ZOS' words).

For now, I'm going to watch this unfold, I've subbed since release - albeit with a break - but I'm not angry at this point because it's hard for me to know the context just from watching ESO Live. If this is a big uplift to the game and content, I'd possibly accept it's an expansion and pay as it's not a lot of money and I am a pragmatic person, but then there is a principle at stake here.

One question, do other MMOs use this model of voluntary sub plus paid expacs? Did Trion/Rift do this, I can't remember now?

I am quite certain that if someone in the EU/UK challenged this, ZOS would come unstuck here. I am not going to detail why here because I don't intend to do ZOS' job for them ;-), but suffice to say myself and a lawyer challenged Frontier Developments and got refunds for hundreds of Elite Dangerous Kickstarter Backers when FD dropped Offline Mode. Anyone selling to an EU buyer is bound by EU law and ZOS do have an EU legal entity that can be challenged: ZeniMax Online Ireland Ltd., Unit 2 Galway West Business Park, Western Distributor Road, Rahoon, Galway, Co. Galway, Ireland.

So, having taken on a big software company and won before, my message to anyone in the EU thinking they do want to challenge ZOS is:

1 - Ignore the DLC/Expansion matter, it's meaningless in EU law, it's all digital content.
2 - Be patient and watch this unfold and gather everything. Screenshot all ZOS comms, all AMAs, keep all your emails from ZOS, document ESO Live etc. One reason we beat Frontier so easily is because we had hundreds of people who had diligently recorded everything and whilst FD tried to amend their website later, we had it all recorded historically and could prove terms that existed at the time in question.
3 - Ignore anything in a EULA that implies ZOS can do what they like, EULAs have no meaning in the EU as it is impossible to sign away your rights or degrade your position under EU law.
4 - Collaborate with other people to present a unified case. We don't have class actions suits in the EU, so we have to form a united front ourselves.

EDIT: I think I should add here I'm not suggesting people do take on ZOS, it was quite time consuming for me with Frontier Devs, even though they folded quite fast due to the strength of our case. It was the right thing to do however, and many Kickstarter backers had invested hundreds and in one case, thousands, of ££. Here we're talking about a very small cost. But, principles are principles, sometimes you just have to hold companies to account. All cases are different however... DYOR as they say!

Oompuh wrote: »

Unsubscribe if you don't like how Zenimax is handling future content. Making 47.000 posts on the forums isn't the right approach. Note: I am not against chapters, but for the ones complaining.. this is a better approach