esotoon wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

Not sure about the 4 DLC per year statement either. It could be 4 updates per year that includes free ones like 1T and Homestead.

1t and Homestead are not DLCs. They are changes to the base game. Think of it like this, if you go out and buy the base game from a shop today (well ok, after Homestead is released *g*), would you also need to download additional content to get access to 1T and Homestead?

Again if that's the only reason you sub then you can call it off anytime.

This is very true. However, what if we have been subbed for the past 6 months without receiving the 2 promised quarterly DLCs? Do we not have a right to be a little upset about that? We can indeed unsub, but we won't be getting our money back.

^^ That's the issue for me, they've not delivered any DLC for quite some time, the first time they do, they reclassify it to avoid having to give it to sub holders. Most certainly when I took out my sub the wording was very clear that it included 'access to all downloadable content' (ZOS' words).

For now, I'm going to watch this unfold, I've subbed since release - albeit with a break - but I'm not angry at this point because it's hard for me to know the context just from watching ESO Live. If this is a big uplift to the game and content, I'd possibly accept it's an expansion and pay as it's not a lot of money and I am a pragmatic person, but then there is a principle at stake here.

One question, do other MMOs use this model of voluntary sub plus paid expacs? Did Trion/Rift do this, I can't remember now?

I am quite certain that if someone in the EU/UK challenged this, ZOS would come unstuck here. I am not going to detail why here because I don't intend to do ZOS' job for them ;-), but suffice to say myself and a lawyer challenged Frontier Developments and got refunds for hundreds of Elite Dangerous Kickstarter Backers when FD dropped Offline Mode. Anyone selling to an EU buyer is bound by EU law and ZOS do have an EU legal entity that can be challenged: ZeniMax Online Ireland Ltd., Unit 2 Galway West Business Park, Western Distributor Road, Rahoon, Galway, Co. Galway, Ireland.

So, having taken on a big software company and won before, my message to anyone in the EU thinking they do want to challenge ZOS is:

1 - Ignore the DLC/Expansion matter, it's meaningless in EU law, it's all digital content.
2 - Be patient and watch this unfold and gather everything. Screenshot all ZOS comms, all AMAs, keep all your emails from ZOS, document ESO Live etc. One reason we beat Frontier so easily is because we had hundreds of people who had diligently recorded everything and whilst FD tried to amend their website later, we had it all recorded historically and could prove terms that existed at the time in question.
3 - Ignore anything in a EULA that implies ZOS can do what they like, EULAs have no meaning in the EU as it is impossible to sign away your rights or degrade your position under EU law.
4 - Collaborate with other people to present a unified case. We don't have class actions suits in the EU, so we have to form a united front ourselves.

EDIT: I think I should add here I'm not suggesting people do take on ZOS, it was quite time consuming for me with Frontier Devs, even though they folded quite fast due to the strength of our case. It was the right thing to do however, and many Kickstarter backers had invested hundreds and in one case, thousands, of ££. Here we're talking about a very small cost. But, principles are principles, sometimes you just have to hold companies to account. All cases are different however... DYOR as they say!