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More systems should be added to ESO+ to make up for lost content
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DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭Same book, different chapter.
Can ZoS just put all the Hate threads into one special forum for these people
That way they can just hate the world and tell each other.
@MoTeets
There isn't even a trace of hate in my posts, you came in here with that supposition all on your own. It's a simple, completely unemotional matter of ESO+ losing some of its advertised value. They advertised access to all DLC and they advertised a release schedule of quarterly DLC. Since they are no longer going to meet those advertised subscription benefits, it is not unreasonable to say that more things should be added to ESO+ to keep it more in line with its original advertised value. They already did this once by adding the Crafting Bag, which you could say makes up for the loss of a DLC in Q4 2016. That's all there is to it! No big deal, no hate, just some simple economics.
But. Is the crafting bag really worth $15 a month?1 -
Avezack✭✭The subscription system should disappear. And all the benefits it currently has (without full access) to make them in a way that can be achieved in the game (NO EASY WAY...). It is very dirty the way zenimax creates needs for players, such as unlimited crafting bag, when this is already Charging for playing with the "expancion" or dlcs.Edited by Avezack on February 2, 2017 5:16PM0
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ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert
I like the idea... allowing ESO+ members the ability to dye weapons. This would also increase the attractiveness for players and help generate even more ESO+ memberships. I know the topic of weapon dying has been contentious, however, the majority of players want this feature. Perhaps the fact that most players want it means that people do not care about whether or not other players have pink weapons (I doubt that fear is even realistic), considering the fact that we're stuck with bright RED weapons right now, weapon dying might be a good addition to the game in the near future.Edited by ADarklore on February 2, 2017 5:17PMCP: 2105 ** ESO+ ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025 | Returned: March 2026~~0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Hiero_Glyph wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »We are not getting a DLC zone this year
Baseless conjecture.
The features sound nice. But we're only a month into the year. Let's not say the sky is falling just yet.
It will be a year since the last DLC in August. We may only be a month into 2017 but that doesn't excuse the lack of DLC for the previous 4 months.
I'm confused. Are you expecting a new zone DLC EVERY month?!? Yikes. Is it any wonder there are so many other issues with ESO since everybody needs to be scrambling to figure out where to put zones and what content to put in to it to satisfy!
The entitlement is strong in this one.
ZOS promised 4 DLCs per year after IC. They made this statement, not me. Is it entitlement to hold someone to their word?
I downloaded One Tamriel, isn't that a DLC? Or did it come out back in August? That seems like a long time ago.
No. One Tamriel is not a DLC. Look in the Crown Store. Do you see it there?
We will also download Morrowind and we download patches all the time. That does not define DLC. Being in the crown store does (based on current policy at least).Edited by DaveMoeDee on February 2, 2017 5:20PM0 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
@DenMoriaSame book, different chapter.
Can ZoS just put all the Hate threads into one special forum for these people
That way they can just hate the world and tell each other.
@MoTeets
There isn't even a trace of hate in my posts, you came in here with that supposition all on your own. It's a simple, completely unemotional matter of ESO+ losing some of its advertised value. They advertised access to all DLC and they advertised a release schedule of quarterly DLC. Since they are no longer going to meet those advertised subscription benefits, it is not unreasonable to say that more things should be added to ESO+ to keep it more in line with its original advertised value. They already did this once by adding the Crafting Bag, which you could say makes up for the loss of a DLC in Q4 2016. That's all there is to it! No big deal, no hate, just some simple economics.
But. Is the crafting bag really worth $15 a month?
Not by itself, no, which is why I am suggesting a new system for every missed DLC. I would actually prefer to see the first two systems I mentioned in the original post as normal quality-of-life base-game updates, but it was illustrative of the things I think would make ESO+ more in line with its advertised price. Access to DLC and access to these systems are more likely to be seen as worth the price.
Just for to add clarity to my position, I pre-ordered the physical collector's edition for Morrowind the day it was announced. I have no problem paying for access to such content, I am just recognizing that the delivery method is not in line with what was advertised originally and that more must be added to ESO+ to bring it back in line with the value of its originally-advertised benefits.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »@Recremen
Uff, I much rather pay 14€ and take the 1500 crowns plus the other subscription perks than to use the same amount of real life money to buy just the crowns.But whatever floats your goat.
I would rather get 5500 crowns for $24, which is what a lot of us do.
What kind of idiot would replace a sub, where they pay $180 a year, with a bunch of $15 crown purchases at the worst possible rate?
If you want to make an argument, make it at least acknowledge the real alternatives out there.2 -
DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »@Recremen
Uff, I much rather pay 14€ and take the 1500 crowns plus the other subscription perks than to use the same amount of real life money to buy just the crowns.But whatever floats your goat.
I would rather get 5500 crowns for $24, which is what a lot of us do.
What kind of idiot would replace a sub, where they pay $180 a year, with a bunch of $15 crown purchases at the worst possible rate?
If you want to make an argument, make it at least acknowledge the real alternatives out there.
Since I just cancelled my sub, I'm beginning to agree with you.1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO+ benefits have only expanded over the last year and a half. They change their update schedules and start doing chapters (a matter of semantics, really), and you start asking for compensation?
By all means, but the more systems they lock behind ESO+, the more they're going to affront people who came here on the premise of it being B2P. We have seen that several times over. I don't think that is the way to go. Better give out a larger stipend of Crowns or subscriber loyalty rewards like pets/mounts/costumes, if anything at all.
Edit: the irony between this thread and threads calling ZOS 'greedy'. Hehe.
Benefits have expanded? Like the benefit to keep paying for the same 5 DLC for 12 months?1 -
DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭I seem to remember that, early on in this whole process (like WAAAAAYYYYY back), we predicted that ESO would eventually become P2P.
It looks like we were right.
Can't blame 'em though. Every company needs to make money.
Besides, it's not like there aren't other games out there.1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.0 -
DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
I question the wisdom of the "access" with a sub when they provide you with enough bonus crowns to just purchase it and then own it from the crown store in the first place.
As someone who has no use for costumes, skins, dyes, packets, cosmetics, hairstyles, jewelry, cheat potions, mounts, etc... The only thing I've ever spent crowns on IS the DLC's so the whole "access" thing is kind of pointless to me.
What am I honestly getting for my sub. A bottomless resources bag and a 10% boost in experience, I guess. Both of those I can live without.1 -
charlmgn✭✭✭So now that the content schedule has been altered, I feel ESO+ benefits need to be reexamined.
...
These of course are just a start, but right now it really does not appear that we are getting the advertised benefits on an appropriate schedule.
I, and many other people, were upset when ZOS announced that it was switching to a B2P model long ago. But apparently they felt it was necessary to change to keep the game going. I could have stopped playing then, but stayed on and enjoyed it, even with the influx of non-subscribers continually whining about not having access to certain features. The game is evolving, and now they've decided they need to change their model again. While I can understand that (and even look forward to Morrowind when it releases), I have mixed emotions about the value of the subscription itself. I personally have no issues giving money to support a game I enjoy. I think it would only have felt a bit better if they announced ESO+ perks that would be added with the Chapter. Since the crafting bag is the only perk that has lasting value in game (and that not for everyone), I have long waited for additional ESO+ perks. It is the fact that their announcements, including Matt Firor's "Welcome to 2017" explanation, have completely ignored subscribers that bothers me.1 -
FortheloveofKrist✭✭✭✭✭
✭What I find more than a little frightening is that someone actually said: "ESO+ members who were banking on the promised DLC schedule to get the true value out of their subscriptions."
Honestly, I've been an ESO+ member since the beginning and never once has that thought even crossed my mind.
Are you out of your mind? That's exactly what many people think (or thought). People in my guilds would constantly tell new players that it's better to sub because you get automatic access to all new content/zones, and that there is supposed to be a new DLC each quarter.
Don't get me wrong, I get that for some of us who play A LOT (*cough* too much *cough*), it's still worth the purchase. But let's not play ignorant and act like ZoS did not mislead the customer base with this little semantic twist by claiming "it's an expansion, not a DLC." It's a crap move, but apparently they know it will sell.
No doubt I'm still buying it, but lets at least recognize the bait and switch for what it is.
1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 2, 2017 6:05PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
Iarao✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »@Recremen
Uff, I much rather pay 14€ and take the 1500 crowns plus the other subscription perks than to use the same amount of real life money to buy just the crowns.But whatever floats your goat.
and that works if you are gonna spend 168eu(?), usd equiv for me, a yr in the game. i buy my crowns when they are on sale. then i buy the dlc. i dont spend 168eu on the game. works for me so far. if i like the housing stuff, then i may consider a sub.0 -
Iarao✭✭✭✭Same book, different chapter.
Can ZoS just put all the Hate threads into one special forum for these people
That way they can just hate the world and tell each other.
@MoTeets
There isn't even a trace of hate in my posts, you came in here with that supposition all on your own. It's a simple, completely unemotional matter of ESO+ losing some of its advertised value. They advertised access to all DLC and they advertised a release schedule of quarterly DLC. Since they are no longer going to meet those advertised subscription benefits, it is not unreasonable to say that more things should be added to ESO+ to keep it more in line with its original advertised value. They already did this once by adding the Crafting Bag, which you could say makes up for the loss of a DLC in Q4 2016. That's all there is to it! No big deal, no hate, just some simple economics.
But. Is the crafting bag really worth $15 a month?
keep in mind that they get crowns for subscribing, so if they are gonna spend 180usd in the game anyway, then yes, by all means the bag is worth it for crafters.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
No, it is not literally that simple. Reread my post. It is explained there.
The flaw in your reasoning is that people don't stop playing the game when they end their sub. This is a question of total cost over your complete time in game. How much you spend on the game will be the sum of buying the game/chapters, buying crowns, and paying for subs. How much will it cost me to have access to all DLC from now through the end of the year? With a sub, it will cost $165 (a little less if buying 6 months at a time). What will it cost if I buy DLC? We have no idea because we don't know how much DLC will cost. How much will access to all DLC be next year? $180 through sub. We have no idea if we buy outright because we don't even know if they will actually deliver 3 DLC and we don't know how much they will cost.
If after the DB DLC we tried to predict the future to see how much access to DLC would be worth, we might estimate around 2500 crowns/quarter because we had 4 consecutive DLC and the average was around there. With all of the crown sales, that ends up a little over $10/quarter or $4/month. But if we consider the 1500 crowns with the sub and the crafting bag (and even the small perks), the sub could feel worth it. It felt even more worth it when the first DLC dropped because we had not yet seen sales on crowns and 5500 crowns for $40 was the best deal, closer to $7/month for DLC.
Someone trying to decide whether to maintain their access to DLC through outright purchase or a sub would need to consider the expected cost per month. The problem is that when you stop adding new DLC, you are now just paying to maintain access to old DLC. ZOS knows what it will try to deliver. We don't until they announce it. If I sub 12 month for $90 worth of DLC, DLC is contributing $5/month to the value I am getting from my sub. If the next year they release no DLC, over two years I received the same $90 worth of DLC for $360. That means DLC ends up contributing only $2.50 to the value of the sub.
That is why players can't properly evaluate the value the sub adds to the game without knowing future releases.
If you make financial decisions without anticipating the future, you are going to leave a lot of money on the table.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Same book, different chapter.
Can ZoS just put all the Hate threads into one special forum for these people
That way they can just hate the world and tell each other.
@MoTeets
There isn't even a trace of hate in my posts, you came in here with that supposition all on your own. It's a simple, completely unemotional matter of ESO+ losing some of its advertised value. They advertised access to all DLC and they advertised a release schedule of quarterly DLC. Since they are no longer going to meet those advertised subscription benefits, it is not unreasonable to say that more things should be added to ESO+ to keep it more in line with its original advertised value. They already did this once by adding the Crafting Bag, which you could say makes up for the loss of a DLC in Q4 2016. That's all there is to it! No big deal, no hate, just some simple economics.
But. Is the crafting bag really worth $15 a month?
keep in mind that they get crowns for subscribing, so if they are gonna spend 180usd in the game anyway, then yes, by all means the bag is worth it for crafters.
What percentage of players with subs do you think would spend $180 on crowns if they didn't have a sub, even including the crowns they will buy for DLC? I bought all the DLC with 2 5500 crown packs I bought during separate sales for $24. I could see myself spending some crowns on unlocking slots at some point, but nothing else interests me.
If someone want to spend $180 on crowns in a year, you have to assume they stock up during sales. $180 = 41,250 at the sale price for the 5500 that such people would buy. Subtract the average of 3 DLC/year at around 2000 crowns a pop and you still have around 35k crowns left, a lot more than the 18k crowns you would get through a sub over a year. Sure, some people would pay $200/year just for crafting bags, and I can appreciate why. This is also why I think people underestimate how much the crafting bag would have to cost in the crown store. Even if it cost 17k crowns, you would have saved money by the second year of usage.
Note: I haven't checked my match carefully. There could be some arithmetic errors.0 -
VelociousLegend✭✭✭I can see why some subscribers feel ESO+ has lost value. Considering from Q3 2016 to Q2 2017, the only content provided to ESO+ subscribers as a part of the subscription will have been the SOTH dungeon pack. One Tamerial and Homestead are great additions, but they are base game updates available to everyone - ESO+ or not. In addition, the new expected "cadence" is going from 4 DLCs per year to 2 DLCs, 1 dungeon pack, and 1 Chapter per year. Meaning the ESO+ content value went from 4 DLCs included to 2 DLCs and a dungeon pack included (with base game updates available for everyone and the chapters being a paid expansion-like content not included in ESO+).
It all comes down to value proposition. Does the new "cadence" decrease the value proposition of ESO+? Sure, I would argue yes based on above. Does the amount of crowns need to increase or is another system needed to entice/retain subscribers? ZOS will most likely determine this if they cannot retain or grow their subscriptions. Is ESO+ still worth $15/month? That is up each person to decide and will vary as seen in this thread overall.
I personally plan to continue ESO+. I enjoy the convenience of the craft bag and the 1500 crowns gives you partial direct value for the subscription cost. Some DLCs I spend a lot of time with and some others I don't care for as much. Everyone will need to make that choice for themselves.2 -
Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hiero_Glyph wrote: »Hiero_Glyph wrote: »We are not getting a DLC zone this year
Baseless conjecture.
The features sound nice. But we're only a month into the year. Let's not say the sky is falling just yet.
It will be a year since the last DLC in August. We may only be a month into 2017 but that doesn't excuse the lack of DLC for the previous 4 months.
I'm confused. Are you expecting a new zone DLC EVERY month?!? Yikes. Is it any wonder there are so many other issues with ESO since everybody needs to be scrambling to figure out where to put zones and what content to put in to it to satisfy!
The entitlement is strong in this one.
ZOS promised 4 DLCs per year after IC. They made this statement, not me. Is it entitlement to hold someone to their word?
Didn't we get 4 DLC's last year? I seem to remember that we did:
Imperial City
Orsinium
Dark Brotherhood
Thieves Guild
I think there may have been more, but I haven't really been paying close attention.
And didn't we also get One Tamriel along with any number of smaller items and crown store items as well? And didn't they just announce Morrowind?
How much more do you want?
Maybe my memory is failing me, or yours is. The updates we got last year from what I remember is Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Shadows Of The Hist Dungeons, and One Tamriel. Although TG and DB were considered content updates, they had limited appeal to some players. Not everyone wants to be thieves or assasins. Hews Bane and the Gold Coast were relatively small zones. The two dungeons were OK, but many people don't try to do them on Vet modes because of their difficulty. And although they did need to do One Tamriel, I just considered it repackaged content they should have done from the beginning. My whole feeling is that Vvardenfell was content we should have had last year, but they couldn't get it done in time, so instead they decided to package it up as an expansion and charge us for it.Edited by Ashtaris on February 2, 2017 7:31PM0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
No, it is not literally that simple. Reread my post. It is explained there.
The flaw in your reasoning is that people don't stop playing the game when they end their sub. This is a question of total cost over your complete time in game. How much you spend on the game will be the sum of buying the game/chapters, buying crowns, and paying for subs. How much will it cost me to have access to all DLC from now through the end of the year? With a sub, it will cost $165 (a little less if buying 6 months at a time). What will it cost if I buy DLC? We have no idea because we don't know how much DLC will cost. How much will access to all DLC be next year? $180 through sub. We have no idea if we buy outright because we don't even know if they will actually deliver 3 DLC and we don't know how much they will cost.
If after the DB DLC we tried to predict the future to see how much access to DLC would be worth, we might estimate around 2500 crowns/quarter because we had 4 consecutive DLC and the average was around there. With all of the crown sales, that ends up a little over $10/quarter or $4/month. But if we consider the 1500 crowns with the sub and the crafting bag (and even the small perks), the sub could feel worth it. It felt even more worth it when the first DLC dropped because we had not yet seen sales on crowns and 5500 crowns for $40 was the best deal, closer to $7/month for DLC.
Someone trying to decide whether to maintain their access to DLC through outright purchase or a sub would need to consider the expected cost per month. The problem is that when you stop adding new DLC, you are now just paying to maintain access to old DLC. ZOS knows what it will try to deliver. We don't until they announce it. If I sub 12 month for $90 worth of DLC, DLC is contributing $5/month to the value I am getting from my sub. If the next year they release no DLC, over two years I received the same $90 worth of DLC for $360. That means DLC ends up contributing only $2.50 to the value of the sub.
That is why players can't properly evaluate the value the sub adds to the game without knowing future releases.
If you make financial decisions without anticipating the future, you are going to leave a lot of money on the table.
@DaveMoeDee
It actually is that simple. I've been doing it since 2014. There was a time where I lost access to everything and later it was only dlc I didn't buy with the crowns provided from the ESO plus sub.
The financial decision is 30, 60 or 90 days in most cases based on the sub chosen.
The decision is do I buy 30, 60 or 90 days worth.
You aren't talking about the subscription tho, you're talking about what you can afford or what you are willing to pay and that is a personal decision.
Options are
-spend money (sub, crown, expansion or some or all of these)
-don't spend money
It's simple.
You're saying it's complicated and the decision for you to spend money is based on what you get immediately and what you're going to get in the unforeseen future.
You are complicating your decision because you're trying to decide on something without information.
That's you're choice and each of us has that opportunity however it seems your choice is trying to get as much as you can out of what you spend vs getting what you want out of what you spend.
See the difference?Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 2, 2017 7:23PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
No, it is not literally that simple. Reread my post. It is explained there.
The flaw in your reasoning is that people don't stop playing the game when they end their sub. This is a question of total cost over your complete time in game. How much you spend on the game will be the sum of buying the game/chapters, buying crowns, and paying for subs. How much will it cost me to have access to all DLC from now through the end of the year? With a sub, it will cost $165 (a little less if buying 6 months at a time). What will it cost if I buy DLC? We have no idea because we don't know how much DLC will cost. How much will access to all DLC be next year? $180 through sub. We have no idea if we buy outright because we don't even know if they will actually deliver 3 DLC and we don't know how much they will cost.
If after the DB DLC we tried to predict the future to see how much access to DLC would be worth, we might estimate around 2500 crowns/quarter because we had 4 consecutive DLC and the average was around there. With all of the crown sales, that ends up a little over $10/quarter or $4/month. But if we consider the 1500 crowns with the sub and the crafting bag (and even the small perks), the sub could feel worth it. It felt even more worth it when the first DLC dropped because we had not yet seen sales on crowns and 5500 crowns for $40 was the best deal, closer to $7/month for DLC.
Someone trying to decide whether to maintain their access to DLC through outright purchase or a sub would need to consider the expected cost per month. The problem is that when you stop adding new DLC, you are now just paying to maintain access to old DLC. ZOS knows what it will try to deliver. We don't until they announce it. If I sub 12 month for $90 worth of DLC, DLC is contributing $5/month to the value I am getting from my sub. If the next year they release no DLC, over two years I received the same $90 worth of DLC for $360. That means DLC ends up contributing only $2.50 to the value of the sub.
That is why players can't properly evaluate the value the sub adds to the game without knowing future releases.
If you make financial decisions without anticipating the future, you are going to leave a lot of money on the table.
@DaveMoeDee
It actually is that simple. I've been doing it since 2014. There was a time where I lost access to everything and later it was only dlc I didn't buy with the crowns provided from the ESO plus sub.
The financial decision is 30, 60 or 90 days in most cases based on the sub chosen.
The decision is do I buy 30, 60 or 90 days worth.
You aren't talking about the subscription tho, you're talking about what you can afford or what you are willing to pay and that is a personal decision.
Options are
-spend money
-don't spend money
It's simple.
You're saying it's complicated and the decision for you to spend money is based on what you get immediately and what you're going to get in the unforeseen future.
You are complicating your decision because you're trying to decide on something without information.
That's you're choice and each of us has that opportunity however it seems your choice is trying to get as much as you can out of what you spend vs getting what you want out of what you spend.
See the difference?
No. I am not talking about what I can afford. If you see two cars and you can afford them both, which do you choose? That is what I am talking about. In fact, nowhere do I mention anything about what people can afford. Why are you mentioning something irrelevant and attributing it to me? Are you just not able to follow because it is a wall of text? If I shorten it, there will be gaps in the explanation.
The decision when you buy anything is part of your overall finances. I lay this all out above. I would be able to accept you disagreement if you displayed that you understood what I said. That clearly is not the case based on your comment about what I can afford.
"Options are -spend money -don't spend money" is silly. You spend money both ways, sub or direct DLC purchase. Don't be obtuse. For people who plan to have all the DLC, the option is not usually sub/don't sub. The option is sub/buy with crowns.
I would agree with the idea that it has long been clear that the value from DLC was decreasing and people should have considered that more honestly, if you were actually making that point.0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
No, it is not literally that simple. Reread my post. It is explained there.
The flaw in your reasoning is that people don't stop playing the game when they end their sub. This is a question of total cost over your complete time in game. How much you spend on the game will be the sum of buying the game/chapters, buying crowns, and paying for subs. How much will it cost me to have access to all DLC from now through the end of the year? With a sub, it will cost $165 (a little less if buying 6 months at a time). What will it cost if I buy DLC? We have no idea because we don't know how much DLC will cost. How much will access to all DLC be next year? $180 through sub. We have no idea if we buy outright because we don't even know if they will actually deliver 3 DLC and we don't know how much they will cost.
If after the DB DLC we tried to predict the future to see how much access to DLC would be worth, we might estimate around 2500 crowns/quarter because we had 4 consecutive DLC and the average was around there. With all of the crown sales, that ends up a little over $10/quarter or $4/month. But if we consider the 1500 crowns with the sub and the crafting bag (and even the small perks), the sub could feel worth it. It felt even more worth it when the first DLC dropped because we had not yet seen sales on crowns and 5500 crowns for $40 was the best deal, closer to $7/month for DLC.
Someone trying to decide whether to maintain their access to DLC through outright purchase or a sub would need to consider the expected cost per month. The problem is that when you stop adding new DLC, you are now just paying to maintain access to old DLC. ZOS knows what it will try to deliver. We don't until they announce it. If I sub 12 month for $90 worth of DLC, DLC is contributing $5/month to the value I am getting from my sub. If the next year they release no DLC, over two years I received the same $90 worth of DLC for $360. That means DLC ends up contributing only $2.50 to the value of the sub.
That is why players can't properly evaluate the value the sub adds to the game without knowing future releases.
If you make financial decisions without anticipating the future, you are going to leave a lot of money on the table.
@DaveMoeDee
It actually is that simple. I've been doing it since 2014. There was a time where I lost access to everything and later it was only dlc I didn't buy with the crowns provided from the ESO plus sub.
The financial decision is 30, 60 or 90 days in most cases based on the sub chosen.
The decision is do I buy 30, 60 or 90 days worth.
You aren't talking about the subscription tho, you're talking about what you can afford or what you are willing to pay and that is a personal decision.
Options are
-spend money
-don't spend money
It's simple.
You're saying it's complicated and the decision for you to spend money is based on what you get immediately and what you're going to get in the unforeseen future.
You are complicating your decision because you're trying to decide on something without information.
That's you're choice and each of us has that opportunity however it seems your choice is trying to get as much as you can out of what you spend vs getting what you want out of what you spend.
See the difference?
No. I am not talking about what I can afford. If you see two cars and you can afford them both, which do you choose? That is what I am talking about. In fact, nowhere do I mention anything about what people can afford. Why are you mentioning something irrelevant and attributing it to me? Are you just not able to follow because it is a wall of text? If I shorten it, there will be gaps in the explanation.
The decision when you buy anything is part of your overall finances. I lay this all out above. I would be able to accept you disagreement if you displayed that you understood what I said. That clearly is not the case based on your comment about what I can afford.
"Options are -spend money -don't spend money" is silly. You spend money both ways, sub or direct DLC purchase. Don't be obtuse. For people who plan to have all the DLC, the option is not usually sub/don't sub. The option is sub/buy with crowns.
I would agree with the idea that it has long been clear that the value from DLC was decreasing and people should have considered that more honestly, if you were actually making that point.
@DaveMoeDee
Please don't let my comments upset you.
I really just see it that simple.
In your example of looking at two cars, let's use that. Is a good context.
I see that as a very simple decision.
I have the finances for both but will choose one or the other (for me) because I don't see value in buying two cars and only being able to drive one at a time. The decision is simple
The game has DLC, crowns and expansions (three choices).
I have the money to buy all three every time they come up, however, (for me) the choice is very simple.
I'm only buying one of the three because all three always give me access to something. What I want to do determines which I buy. (That is very simple)
Actual Example:
Right now I'm working on completing Craglorn again and finishing up make guild books. Because I'm in Craglorn I purchased a sub because while doing those quests, that environment has nirncrux which I see as valuable to me.
Actual example2:
In November - December I was off from work for three weeks on vacation. From memory there was a crown sale and a event. I did not buy a sub and instead purchased a crown pack b cause I decided to make a new alt but knew that some time in the future I would problably spend crowns on something so I picked up $50 worth (11,000)
Actual example 3:
September - October:
I wasn't playing much due to my partyime job so I let me subscription stop and didn't buy crown either
All of those are very simple and none require knowledge of what's coming in the future. These decisions are based on 30,60 or 90 days because that's is how ZOS lays out their updates and content.
Why it's complicated for you:
You aren't buying for now you're trying to determine what's coming.
For that logic I'd say just save your money AND that is also a simple decision.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 2, 2017 7:48PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
No, it is not literally that simple. Reread my post. It is explained there.
The flaw in your reasoning is that people don't stop playing the game when they end their sub. This is a question of total cost over your complete time in game. How much you spend on the game will be the sum of buying the game/chapters, buying crowns, and paying for subs. How much will it cost me to have access to all DLC from now through the end of the year? With a sub, it will cost $165 (a little less if buying 6 months at a time). What will it cost if I buy DLC? We have no idea because we don't know how much DLC will cost. How much will access to all DLC be next year? $180 through sub. We have no idea if we buy outright because we don't even know if they will actually deliver 3 DLC and we don't know how much they will cost.
If after the DB DLC we tried to predict the future to see how much access to DLC would be worth, we might estimate around 2500 crowns/quarter because we had 4 consecutive DLC and the average was around there. With all of the crown sales, that ends up a little over $10/quarter or $4/month. But if we consider the 1500 crowns with the sub and the crafting bag (and even the small perks), the sub could feel worth it. It felt even more worth it when the first DLC dropped because we had not yet seen sales on crowns and 5500 crowns for $40 was the best deal, closer to $7/month for DLC.
Someone trying to decide whether to maintain their access to DLC through outright purchase or a sub would need to consider the expected cost per month. The problem is that when you stop adding new DLC, you are now just paying to maintain access to old DLC. ZOS knows what it will try to deliver. We don't until they announce it. If I sub 12 month for $90 worth of DLC, DLC is contributing $5/month to the value I am getting from my sub. If the next year they release no DLC, over two years I received the same $90 worth of DLC for $360. That means DLC ends up contributing only $2.50 to the value of the sub.
That is why players can't properly evaluate the value the sub adds to the game without knowing future releases.
If you make financial decisions without anticipating the future, you are going to leave a lot of money on the table.
@DaveMoeDee
It actually is that simple. I've been doing it since 2014. There was a time where I lost access to everything and later it was only dlc I didn't buy with the crowns provided from the ESO plus sub.
The financial decision is 30, 60 or 90 days in most cases based on the sub chosen.
The decision is do I buy 30, 60 or 90 days worth.
You aren't talking about the subscription tho, you're talking about what you can afford or what you are willing to pay and that is a personal decision.
Options are
-spend money
-don't spend money
It's simple.
You're saying it's complicated and the decision for you to spend money is based on what you get immediately and what you're going to get in the unforeseen future.
You are complicating your decision because you're trying to decide on something without information.
That's you're choice and each of us has that opportunity however it seems your choice is trying to get as much as you can out of what you spend vs getting what you want out of what you spend.
See the difference?
No. I am not talking about what I can afford. If you see two cars and you can afford them both, which do you choose? That is what I am talking about. In fact, nowhere do I mention anything about what people can afford. Why are you mentioning something irrelevant and attributing it to me? Are you just not able to follow because it is a wall of text? If I shorten it, there will be gaps in the explanation.
The decision when you buy anything is part of your overall finances. I lay this all out above. I would be able to accept you disagreement if you displayed that you understood what I said. That clearly is not the case based on your comment about what I can afford.
"Options are -spend money -don't spend money" is silly. You spend money both ways, sub or direct DLC purchase. Don't be obtuse. For people who plan to have all the DLC, the option is not usually sub/don't sub. The option is sub/buy with crowns.
I would agree with the idea that it has long been clear that the value from DLC was decreasing and people should have considered that more honestly, if you were actually making that point.
@DaveMoeDee
Please don't let my comments upset you.
I really just see it that simple.
In your example of looking at two cars, let's use that. Is a good context.
I see that as a very simple decision.
I have the finances for both but will choose one or the other (for me) because I don't see value in buying two cars and only being able to drive one at a time. The decision is simple
The game has DLC, crowns and expansions (three choices).
I have the money to buy all three every time they come up, however, (for me) the choice is very simple.
I'm only buying one of the three because all three always give me access to something. What I want to do determines which I buy. (That is very simple)
Actual Example:
Right now I'm working on completing Craglorn again and finishing up make guild books. Because I'm in Craglorn I purchased a sub because while doing those quests, that environment has nirncrux which I see as valuable to me.
Actual example2:
In November - December I was off from work for three weeks on vacation. From memory there was a crown sale and a event. I did not buy a sub and instead purchased a crown pack b cause I decided to make a new alt but knew that some time in the future I would problably spend crowns on something so I picked up $50 worth (11,000)
Actual example 3:
September - October:
I wasn't playing much due to my partyime job so I let me subscription stop and didn't buy crown either
All of those are very simple and none require knowledge of what's coming in the future. These decisions are based on 30,60 or 90 days because that's is how ZOS lays out their updates and content.
It doesn't matter if you think your examples don't require knowledge of the future. I gave a clear account of how people need to make assumptions about the future to decide about the sub. Your examples would be like me seeing a hat and saying this is not a duck, seeing a car and saying this is not a duck, seeing a show and saying this is not a duck, and then concluding "there are not ducks". Counter examples aren't a real response.0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
No, it is not literally that simple. Reread my post. It is explained there.
The flaw in your reasoning is that people don't stop playing the game when they end their sub. This is a question of total cost over your complete time in game. How much you spend on the game will be the sum of buying the game/chapters, buying crowns, and paying for subs. How much will it cost me to have access to all DLC from now through the end of the year? With a sub, it will cost $165 (a little less if buying 6 months at a time). What will it cost if I buy DLC? We have no idea because we don't know how much DLC will cost. How much will access to all DLC be next year? $180 through sub. We have no idea if we buy outright because we don't even know if they will actually deliver 3 DLC and we don't know how much they will cost.
If after the DB DLC we tried to predict the future to see how much access to DLC would be worth, we might estimate around 2500 crowns/quarter because we had 4 consecutive DLC and the average was around there. With all of the crown sales, that ends up a little over $10/quarter or $4/month. But if we consider the 1500 crowns with the sub and the crafting bag (and even the small perks), the sub could feel worth it. It felt even more worth it when the first DLC dropped because we had not yet seen sales on crowns and 5500 crowns for $40 was the best deal, closer to $7/month for DLC.
Someone trying to decide whether to maintain their access to DLC through outright purchase or a sub would need to consider the expected cost per month. The problem is that when you stop adding new DLC, you are now just paying to maintain access to old DLC. ZOS knows what it will try to deliver. We don't until they announce it. If I sub 12 month for $90 worth of DLC, DLC is contributing $5/month to the value I am getting from my sub. If the next year they release no DLC, over two years I received the same $90 worth of DLC for $360. That means DLC ends up contributing only $2.50 to the value of the sub.
That is why players can't properly evaluate the value the sub adds to the game without knowing future releases.
If you make financial decisions without anticipating the future, you are going to leave a lot of money on the table.
@DaveMoeDee
It actually is that simple. I've been doing it since 2014. There was a time where I lost access to everything and later it was only dlc I didn't buy with the crowns provided from the ESO plus sub.
The financial decision is 30, 60 or 90 days in most cases based on the sub chosen.
The decision is do I buy 30, 60 or 90 days worth.
You aren't talking about the subscription tho, you're talking about what you can afford or what you are willing to pay and that is a personal decision.
Options are
-spend money
-don't spend money
It's simple.
You're saying it's complicated and the decision for you to spend money is based on what you get immediately and what you're going to get in the unforeseen future.
You are complicating your decision because you're trying to decide on something without information.
That's you're choice and each of us has that opportunity however it seems your choice is trying to get as much as you can out of what you spend vs getting what you want out of what you spend.
See the difference?
No. I am not talking about what I can afford. If you see two cars and you can afford them both, which do you choose? That is what I am talking about. In fact, nowhere do I mention anything about what people can afford. Why are you mentioning something irrelevant and attributing it to me? Are you just not able to follow because it is a wall of text? If I shorten it, there will be gaps in the explanation.
The decision when you buy anything is part of your overall finances. I lay this all out above. I would be able to accept you disagreement if you displayed that you understood what I said. That clearly is not the case based on your comment about what I can afford.
"Options are -spend money -don't spend money" is silly. You spend money both ways, sub or direct DLC purchase. Don't be obtuse. For people who plan to have all the DLC, the option is not usually sub/don't sub. The option is sub/buy with crowns.
I would agree with the idea that it has long been clear that the value from DLC was decreasing and people should have considered that more honestly, if you were actually making that point.
@DaveMoeDee
Please don't let my comments upset you.
I really just see it that simple.
In your example of looking at two cars, let's use that. Is a good context.
I see that as a very simple decision.
I have the finances for both but will choose one or the other (for me) because I don't see value in buying two cars and only being able to drive one at a time. The decision is simple
The game has DLC, crowns and expansions (three choices).
I have the money to buy all three every time they come up, however, (for me) the choice is very simple.
I'm only buying one of the three because all three always give me access to something. What I want to do determines which I buy. (That is very simple)
Actual Example:
Right now I'm working on completing Craglorn again and finishing up make guild books. Because I'm in Craglorn I purchased a sub because while doing those quests, that environment has nirncrux which I see as valuable to me.
Actual example2:
In November - December I was off from work for three weeks on vacation. From memory there was a crown sale and a event. I did not buy a sub and instead purchased a crown pack b cause I decided to make a new alt but knew that some time in the future I would problably spend crowns on something so I picked up $50 worth (11,000)
Actual example 3:
September - October:
I wasn't playing much due to my partyime job so I let me subscription stop and didn't buy crown either
All of those are very simple and none require knowledge of what's coming in the future. These decisions are based on 30,60 or 90 days because that's is how ZOS lays out their updates and content.
It doesn't matter if you think your examples don't require knowledge of the future. I gave a clear account of how people need to make assumptions about the future to decide about the sub. Your examples would be like me seeing a hat and saying this is not a duck, seeing a car and saying this is not a duck, seeing a show and saying this is not a duck, and then concluding "there are not ducks". Counter examples aren't a real response.
@DaveMoeDee
It's not that you and or others have to have the same view on making decisions. It's the reality that the decision can be simple or complex based on what each individual decides.
It does matter that my decisions don't require future knowledge because that what creates simplicity.
It also matters that your decisions hope for or attempt to decide on the unknown because that's what makes it complicated.
It matters but neither of us have to do one, the other or either because the next person may decide not to buy anything. That can be both simple and complicated as well-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
No, it is not literally that simple. Reread my post. It is explained there.
The flaw in your reasoning is that people don't stop playing the game when they end their sub. This is a question of total cost over your complete time in game. How much you spend on the game will be the sum of buying the game/chapters, buying crowns, and paying for subs. How much will it cost me to have access to all DLC from now through the end of the year? With a sub, it will cost $165 (a little less if buying 6 months at a time). What will it cost if I buy DLC? We have no idea because we don't know how much DLC will cost. How much will access to all DLC be next year? $180 through sub. We have no idea if we buy outright because we don't even know if they will actually deliver 3 DLC and we don't know how much they will cost.
If after the DB DLC we tried to predict the future to see how much access to DLC would be worth, we might estimate around 2500 crowns/quarter because we had 4 consecutive DLC and the average was around there. With all of the crown sales, that ends up a little over $10/quarter or $4/month. But if we consider the 1500 crowns with the sub and the crafting bag (and even the small perks), the sub could feel worth it. It felt even more worth it when the first DLC dropped because we had not yet seen sales on crowns and 5500 crowns for $40 was the best deal, closer to $7/month for DLC.
Someone trying to decide whether to maintain their access to DLC through outright purchase or a sub would need to consider the expected cost per month. The problem is that when you stop adding new DLC, you are now just paying to maintain access to old DLC. ZOS knows what it will try to deliver. We don't until they announce it. If I sub 12 month for $90 worth of DLC, DLC is contributing $5/month to the value I am getting from my sub. If the next year they release no DLC, over two years I received the same $90 worth of DLC for $360. That means DLC ends up contributing only $2.50 to the value of the sub.
That is why players can't properly evaluate the value the sub adds to the game without knowing future releases.
If you make financial decisions without anticipating the future, you are going to leave a lot of money on the table.
@DaveMoeDee
It actually is that simple. I've been doing it since 2014. There was a time where I lost access to everything and later it was only dlc I didn't buy with the crowns provided from the ESO plus sub.
The financial decision is 30, 60 or 90 days in most cases based on the sub chosen.
The decision is do I buy 30, 60 or 90 days worth.
You aren't talking about the subscription tho, you're talking about what you can afford or what you are willing to pay and that is a personal decision.
Options are
-spend money
-don't spend money
It's simple.
You're saying it's complicated and the decision for you to spend money is based on what you get immediately and what you're going to get in the unforeseen future.
You are complicating your decision because you're trying to decide on something without information.
That's you're choice and each of us has that opportunity however it seems your choice is trying to get as much as you can out of what you spend vs getting what you want out of what you spend.
See the difference?
No. I am not talking about what I can afford. If you see two cars and you can afford them both, which do you choose? That is what I am talking about. In fact, nowhere do I mention anything about what people can afford. Why are you mentioning something irrelevant and attributing it to me? Are you just not able to follow because it is a wall of text? If I shorten it, there will be gaps in the explanation.
The decision when you buy anything is part of your overall finances. I lay this all out above. I would be able to accept you disagreement if you displayed that you understood what I said. That clearly is not the case based on your comment about what I can afford.
"Options are -spend money -don't spend money" is silly. You spend money both ways, sub or direct DLC purchase. Don't be obtuse. For people who plan to have all the DLC, the option is not usually sub/don't sub. The option is sub/buy with crowns.
I would agree with the idea that it has long been clear that the value from DLC was decreasing and people should have considered that more honestly, if you were actually making that point.
@DaveMoeDee
Please don't let my comments upset you.
I really just see it that simple.
In your example of looking at two cars, let's use that. Is a good context.
I see that as a very simple decision.
I have the finances for both but will choose one or the other (for me) because I don't see value in buying two cars and only being able to drive one at a time. The decision is simple
The game has DLC, crowns and expansions (three choices).
I have the money to buy all three every time they come up, however, (for me) the choice is very simple.
I'm only buying one of the three because all three always give me access to something. What I want to do determines which I buy. (That is very simple)
Actual Example:
Right now I'm working on completing Craglorn again and finishing up make guild books. Because I'm in Craglorn I purchased a sub because while doing those quests, that environment has nirncrux which I see as valuable to me.
Actual example2:
In November - December I was off from work for three weeks on vacation. From memory there was a crown sale and a event. I did not buy a sub and instead purchased a crown pack b cause I decided to make a new alt but knew that some time in the future I would problably spend crowns on something so I picked up $50 worth (11,000)
Actual example 3:
September - October:
I wasn't playing much due to my partyime job so I let me subscription stop and didn't buy crown either
All of those are very simple and none require knowledge of what's coming in the future. These decisions are based on 30,60 or 90 days because that's is how ZOS lays out their updates and content.
It doesn't matter if you think your examples don't require knowledge of the future. I gave a clear account of how people need to make assumptions about the future to decide about the sub. Your examples would be like me seeing a hat and saying this is not a duck, seeing a car and saying this is not a duck, seeing a show and saying this is not a duck, and then concluding "there are not ducks". Counter examples aren't a real response.
@DaveMoeDee
It's not that you and or others have to have the same view on making decisions. It's the reality that the decision can be simple or complex based on what each individual decides.
It does matter that my decisions don't require future knowledge because that what creates simplicity.
It also matters that your decisions hope for or attempt to decide on the unknown because that's what makes it complicated.
It matters but neither of us have to do one, the other or either because the next person may decide not to buy anything. That can be both simple and complicated as well
Let's do a "simple" analysis that doesn't consider the future.
When IC was released, what is the simple choice regarding sub or buy with crowns? Sub, of course. Why?
Sub, $15, gives you access now.
No sub, 2500 crowns. At $25 for 3000 (no sales yet when IC was released), IC costs $25. Why not buy 5500 pack? You only need 2500. Since we are being simple, we don't know that we will still be playing the game next month or next quarter when next DLC drops.
Running cost total for simpleton:
$15, since that is cheaper than $25
Next month. No new DLC but still want IC.
Sub, $15, gives you access now.
No sub, 2500 crowns.
Running cost total for simpleton:
$30, since $15 is cheaper than $25 and we don't know if we will still like the game next month.
Next month, repeat. Now the simpleton has spent $45 on IC access.
New quarter, Orsinium drops. 3000 crowns. Around the time it drops, ZOS has first crown sale, 5500 for $24. I don't remember the sale was around on launch day, but let's assume it was:
4th month, Orsinium drops.
Sub, $15 - access to 2 DLC
No sub, 5500 crowns for 2 DLC, costs $24.
$15 < $24
Running cost total for simpleton:
$60
We can do on and on. The simple decision-making of the simpleton is going to cost them a lot of extra money. I'm not sure why you are so adamant that people should make "simple" decisions.
0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Btw @NewBlacksmurf , I don't sub. I buy crowns 5500 for $24 and buy the DLC outright.
Why don't I sub? Because I calculated the cost with the safe assumption that I would play the game more than one month per DLC. I have spent $48 on crowns, enough for all the DLC (though that might be due to 1500 I had when they gave out when they created crowns). I was able to maximize value by considering the future and because I don't value vanity items or buffs (though crafting bags are awesome). If I valued vanity items and had a use for crowns outside of buying DLC and if I wanted the buffs, the crafting bags could have been enough to convince me to maintain access to DLC through a sub back when IC dropped. Probably not, but maybe.
To clarify, since I am not big on PvP, I saved money by skipping IC but grabbing it when crowns got cheap since it was hard to pass on for around $12. That is the only reason I got IC with discounted crowns.0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »DaveMoeDee wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »I still don't understand why someone who chooses to continue their subscription wouldn't stop whenever they felt there wasn't value
Because they cannot know the value of a sub because they don't know ZOS plans.
What is the value of a sub to a player? A major part is access to DLC. How much is access to DLC worth? Access to DLC is worth the cost of buying with crowns. How do I determine if subbing next month is worth it if I don't know when the next DLC will come out? I can't determine that. It is easy to say "just cancel the sub", but then they lose access to the DLC and need to spend additional resources to get access to the DLC. Imagine someone unsubbed before the Morrowind announcement and bought all the old DLC. Then, a different announcement was made the the content would be $40 and INCLUDED in sub. If they sub again, they essentially wasted the resources they spend on all the old DLC they want to retain access to.
If they instead continued to sub to retain access to old DLC while waiting for new, they would have been met with the announcement we got IRL where the new DLC is not DLC and not included. Now, when they cancel the sub to not pay for the next 5+ months to just access the same old DLC, they need to spend to buy DLC and have also wasted resources subbing for the time since Hist when no new content was released. They could have saved $15 a month, bought a few 5500 crowns for $24 packs, and bought the DLC a long time ago.
My point is that people cannot accurately determine the value of the sub when ZOS keeps next quarter's plans secret, when they don't meet expectations (like the quarterly DLC plan that only lasted 5 months), and when they change their model on a whim. And managing a sub is not as simple as sub-unsub.
@DaveMoeDee
The value is simple. From that day they sign up and 30-90 days in the future....Do you want to spend X for the listed benefits?
It's a yes or No
If it's not yes....don't buy
It's literally that simple. If you or anyone is subscribing for anything other than current benefits as in, something you gain as soon as you pay, I'd suggest that you not pay and wait
No, it is not literally that simple. Reread my post. It is explained there.
The flaw in your reasoning is that people don't stop playing the game when they end their sub. This is a question of total cost over your complete time in game. How much you spend on the game will be the sum of buying the game/chapters, buying crowns, and paying for subs. How much will it cost me to have access to all DLC from now through the end of the year? With a sub, it will cost $165 (a little less if buying 6 months at a time). What will it cost if I buy DLC? We have no idea because we don't know how much DLC will cost. How much will access to all DLC be next year? $180 through sub. We have no idea if we buy outright because we don't even know if they will actually deliver 3 DLC and we don't know how much they will cost.
If after the DB DLC we tried to predict the future to see how much access to DLC would be worth, we might estimate around 2500 crowns/quarter because we had 4 consecutive DLC and the average was around there. With all of the crown sales, that ends up a little over $10/quarter or $4/month. But if we consider the 1500 crowns with the sub and the crafting bag (and even the small perks), the sub could feel worth it. It felt even more worth it when the first DLC dropped because we had not yet seen sales on crowns and 5500 crowns for $40 was the best deal, closer to $7/month for DLC.
Someone trying to decide whether to maintain their access to DLC through outright purchase or a sub would need to consider the expected cost per month. The problem is that when you stop adding new DLC, you are now just paying to maintain access to old DLC. ZOS knows what it will try to deliver. We don't until they announce it. If I sub 12 month for $90 worth of DLC, DLC is contributing $5/month to the value I am getting from my sub. If the next year they release no DLC, over two years I received the same $90 worth of DLC for $360. That means DLC ends up contributing only $2.50 to the value of the sub.
That is why players can't properly evaluate the value the sub adds to the game without knowing future releases.
If you make financial decisions without anticipating the future, you are going to leave a lot of money on the table.
@DaveMoeDee
It actually is that simple. I've been doing it since 2014. There was a time where I lost access to everything and later it was only dlc I didn't buy with the crowns provided from the ESO plus sub.
The financial decision is 30, 60 or 90 days in most cases based on the sub chosen.
The decision is do I buy 30, 60 or 90 days worth.
You aren't talking about the subscription tho, you're talking about what you can afford or what you are willing to pay and that is a personal decision.
Options are
-spend money
-don't spend money
It's simple.
You're saying it's complicated and the decision for you to spend money is based on what you get immediately and what you're going to get in the unforeseen future.
You are complicating your decision because you're trying to decide on something without information.
That's you're choice and each of us has that opportunity however it seems your choice is trying to get as much as you can out of what you spend vs getting what you want out of what you spend.
See the difference?
No. I am not talking about what I can afford. If you see two cars and you can afford them both, which do you choose? That is what I am talking about. In fact, nowhere do I mention anything about what people can afford. Why are you mentioning something irrelevant and attributing it to me? Are you just not able to follow because it is a wall of text? If I shorten it, there will be gaps in the explanation.
The decision when you buy anything is part of your overall finances. I lay this all out above. I would be able to accept you disagreement if you displayed that you understood what I said. That clearly is not the case based on your comment about what I can afford.
"Options are -spend money -don't spend money" is silly. You spend money both ways, sub or direct DLC purchase. Don't be obtuse. For people who plan to have all the DLC, the option is not usually sub/don't sub. The option is sub/buy with crowns.
I would agree with the idea that it has long been clear that the value from DLC was decreasing and people should have considered that more honestly, if you were actually making that point.
@DaveMoeDee
Please don't let my comments upset you.
I really just see it that simple.
In your example of looking at two cars, let's use that. Is a good context.
I see that as a very simple decision.
I have the finances for both but will choose one or the other (for me) because I don't see value in buying two cars and only being able to drive one at a time. The decision is simple
The game has DLC, crowns and expansions (three choices).
I have the money to buy all three every time they come up, however, (for me) the choice is very simple.
I'm only buying one of the three because all three always give me access to something. What I want to do determines which I buy. (That is very simple)
Actual Example:
Right now I'm working on completing Craglorn again and finishing up make guild books. Because I'm in Craglorn I purchased a sub because while doing those quests, that environment has nirncrux which I see as valuable to me.
Actual example2:
In November - December I was off from work for three weeks on vacation. From memory there was a crown sale and a event. I did not buy a sub and instead purchased a crown pack b cause I decided to make a new alt but knew that some time in the future I would problably spend crowns on something so I picked up $50 worth (11,000)
Actual example 3:
September - October:
I wasn't playing much due to my partyime job so I let me subscription stop and didn't buy crown either
All of those are very simple and none require knowledge of what's coming in the future. These decisions are based on 30,60 or 90 days because that's is how ZOS lays out their updates and content.
It doesn't matter if you think your examples don't require knowledge of the future. I gave a clear account of how people need to make assumptions about the future to decide about the sub. Your examples would be like me seeing a hat and saying this is not a duck, seeing a car and saying this is not a duck, seeing a show and saying this is not a duck, and then concluding "there are not ducks". Counter examples aren't a real response.
@DaveMoeDee
It's not that you and or others have to have the same view on making decisions. It's the reality that the decision can be simple or complex based on what each individual decides.
It does matter that my decisions don't require future knowledge because that what creates simplicity.
It also matters that your decisions hope for or attempt to decide on the unknown because that's what makes it complicated.
It matters but neither of us have to do one, the other or either because the next person may decide not to buy anything. That can be both simple and complicated as well
Let's do a "simple" analysis that doesn't consider the future.
When IC was released, what is the simple choice regarding sub or buy with crowns? Sub, of course. Why?
Sub, $15, gives you access now.
No sub, 2500 crowns. At $25 for 3000 (no sales yet when IC was released), IC costs $25. Why not buy 5500 pack? You only need 2500. Since we are being simple, we don't know that we will still be playing the game next month or next quarter when next DLC drops.
Running cost total for simpleton:
$15, since that is cheaper than $25
Next month. No new DLC but still want IC.
Sub, $15, gives you access now.
No sub, 2500 crowns.
Running cost total for simpleton:
$30, since $15 is cheaper than $25 and we don't know if we will still like the game next month.
Next month, repeat. Now the simpleton has spent $45 on IC access.
New quarter, Orsinium drops. 3000 crowns. Around the time it drops, ZOS has first crown sale, 5500 for $24. I don't remember the sale was around on launch day, but let's assume it was:
4th month, Orsinium drops.
Sub, $15 - access to 2 DLC
No sub, 5500 crowns for 2 DLC, costs $24.
$15 < $24
Running cost total for simpleton:
$60
We can do on and on. The simple decision-making of the simpleton is going to cost them a lot of extra money. I'm not sure why you are so adamant that people should make "simple" decisions.
@DaveMoeDee
Check this out....
When IC hit I didn't sub or buy crowns (that was simple cause I don't enjoy how PvP works)
Running total $0
Month 2- $0
Month 3: $25 for 5500 crowns simple cause I valued the immediate decision of the crowns which could go towards dlc or cosmetics
(Technically Orsinium was broke on Xbox one so I waited)
Total for simpleton
$25 with 6000 crowns banked cause I still had the first 500
Later on ....fast forward to September or October I chose to buy a sub for $15 to try out Orsinium and Imperial City and that lasted to thanksgiving cause I was on vacation in November. Didn't even get my 1500 crowns cause ZOS doesn't give them on Xbox one unless you open a ticket and argue with them.
(Simple decision)
I subbed again around Christmas
Total approx $60 with tax
My point is everyone is different but if you look at your explanation of simple, it's not mine and your simple cost you more over a shorter period of time
I also point out that how you based those decisions was adding complication.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on February 2, 2017 8:33PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010