Channeled spells and counter play

Etaniel · February 2017

After spending a lot of time in Cyrodiil, I think it's pretty fair to say that Zenimax has slowly removed counter play possibilities.
Things like the removal of an interrupt possibility on heavy attacks and soul assault, the removal of counters for meteor (reflecting, cloaking, leaving only block available) are perfect examples of that. While I don't agree with those changes, I don't think it would be constructive to ask for a revert.

What I would like to see added, is counterplay for channeled abilities. The current counter play that Zenimax proposes is to interrupt.
Currently, some abilities are interruptable, but there is no drawback for being interrupted. Sure, you are set off balance, but once you have CC immunity that goes away.

The perfect example of that problem :
I am facing a templar that casts jesus beam. I decide to bash him, or as a dk, use deep bearth to interrupt his cast. What does he instantly do? Cast jesus beam again. Interrupt him? sure, let's do it. But surprise, he casts jesus beam again. And I can interrupt instantly, it doesn't matter, the first tick of damage is going through. The counter play that Zenimax proposes just doesn't work.

This is what I propose in order to add counter play :
-When a channeled ability is cancelled, that skill is no longer usable for X seconds (Something like 5 seconds could sound reasonable)

Of course, if such a mechanic were to be implemented, the channeled skills affected by this change would have to receive a slight buff to compensate, creating an actual risk/reward mechanic for those skills.

Off the top of my head, this would affect jesus beam and dark deal the most.

I would like it to also affect rezzing. How annoying is it when you kill someone, and someone tries to rez him over and over again while you have to fight off others. You are forced to stay there and bash him forever until you are out of stamina. And since rezzing doesn't cost anything, he can do indefinitely with a healer behind his back. Rezzing should be kept for out of combat situations, and be risky during combat.

Interrupted rez? Cannot rez for the next 10 seconds. Problem fixed.

Discuss

Rikumaru · February 2017

Interrupts shouldn't prevent skill use, but should actually properly CC the caster forcing them to break wasting their stamina.

Derra · February 2017

Rikumaru wrote: »

Interrupts shouldn't prevent skill use, but should actually properly CC the caster forcing them to break wasting their stamina.

Which they do - but it gets counteracted by cc immunity.
This makes interrupting against someone with cc immunity pretty pointless.

I think a skill lockout for getting interrupted would be pretty great. It would go a long way in balancing dark deal. It would give medium armor users actualy counterplay to a templar just spamming jesusbeam.

It would be really good to prevent permanent rez attempts (kagrenac templar anyone?)
Personally i would not mind seeing a 20 to 30s lockout from rezzing when being interrupted.

Great suggestion.

Ashamray · February 2017

Someone interrupts Radiant Opression and still whines. I lol'ed

Derra · February 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

Someone interrupts Radiant Opression and still whines. I lol'ed

Tell me - what drawback does getting interrupted have when you have cc immunity?

DeadlyRecluse · February 2017

I like it.

10 seconds might be a bit much on the rez interrupt timer, but I like the concept a lot.

technohic · February 2017

All they need to do is create a CC that ignores CC immunity; if that makes sense. Then apply that to interrupts. Maybe call it "confusion" and have the effect last 3 seconds and they can take damage during.

Ashamray · February 2017

Derra wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Someone interrupts Radiant Opression and still whines. I lol'ed

Tell me - what drawback does getting interrupted have when you have cc immunity?

I didn't understand your question, but nevermind. OP claims that channels have no counterplay. It's such a narrow-viewed position, that just amuses me.

How many hard casters are in Cyro? Almost zero. Why? Interrupts go through CC imminity. They don't stun but they also don't allow to cast. Bash is brainless.
What is the main problem with each channel in ESO? You literally can die during it if for some reasons you don't press block. This is enough to make channels and cast time abilities the most dangerous (for caster) attack type. I think it's a pretty high price, and OP ignores this fact.

Etaniel · February 2017

technohic wrote: »

All they need to do is create a CC that ignores CC immunity; if that makes sense. Then apply that to interrupts. Maybe call it "confusion" and have the effect last 3 seconds and they can take damage during.

well, the punishment for being interrupted can't be a global silence, otherwise it's way too harsh. Only affect the interrupted skill.

Etaniel · February 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Someone interrupts Radiant Opression and still whines. I lol'ed

Tell me - what drawback does getting interrupted have when you have cc immunity?

I didn't understand your question, but nevermind. OP claims that channels have no counterplay. It's such a narrow-viewed position, that just amuses me.

How many hard casters are in Cyro? Almost zero. Why? Interrupts go through CC imminity. They don't stun but they also don't allow to cast. Bash is brainless.
What is the main problem with each channel in ESO? You literally can die during it if for some reasons you don't press block. This is enough to make channels and cast time abilities the most dangerous (for caster) attack type. I think it's a pretty high price, and OP ignores this fact.

Well, I wouldn't want to apply this to say crystal fragments or dark flare, as being interrupted already punishes you : you used ressources and you get no effect. (I guess you could say the same about dark deal)

olsborg · February 2017

I like the idea of locking said skill if interrupted, that way, theres no need to nerf say specific skills like dark deal etc, some say its strong...and it is, because its a spammable and doesnt cost a thing if youre interrupted, just rince and repeat.

Risk and reward, yessir.

Ashamray · February 2017

olsborg wrote: »

I like the idea of locking said skill if interrupted, that way, theres no need to nerf say specific skills like dark deal etc, some say its strong...and it is, because its a spammable and doesnt cost a thing if youre interrupted, just rince and repeat.

Risk and reward, yessir.

But you can't just rinse and repeat. If you try, you die, because you don't heal or shield yourself, only repeating casts one by one.

OP, If templar tried to cast 3 damned executes in a row with no time to BoL himself why was he alive lol? Were you just bashing him?

In other games, where interrupt locks ability for some second, interrupts aren't spammable. In ESO they are.

Etaniel · February 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

I like the idea of locking said skill if interrupted, that way, theres no need to nerf say specific skills like dark deal etc, some say its strong...and it is, because its a spammable and doesnt cost a thing if youre interrupted, just rince and repeat.

Risk and reward, yessir.

But you can't just rinse and repeat. If you try, you die, because you don't heal or shield yourself, only repeating casts one by one.

OP, If templar tried to cast 3 damned executes in a row with no time to BoL himself why was he alive lol? Were you just bashing him?

In other games, where interrupt locks ability for some second, interrupts aren't spammable. In ESO they are.

This is obviously not a problem during a 1v1.

technohic · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

All they need to do is create a CC that ignores CC immunity; if that makes sense. Then apply that to interrupts. Maybe call it "confusion" and have the effect last 3 seconds and they can take damage during.

well, the punishment for being interrupted can't be a global silence, otherwise it's way too harsh. Only affect the interrupted skill.

I am not talking about a silence. I am saying to make it to where the stun you get when interrupted happens regardless of CC immunity is all. You could still break it but its going to cost you resources if you keep trying to do it and getting interrupted.

Derra · February 2017

Ashamray wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Someone interrupts Radiant Opression and still whines. I lol'ed

Tell me - what drawback does getting interrupted have when you have cc immunity?

I didn't understand your question, but nevermind. OP claims that channels have no counterplay. It's such a narrow-viewed position, that just amuses me.

How many hard casters are in Cyro? Almost zero. Why? Interrupts go through CC imminity. They don't stun but they also don't allow to cast. Bash is brainless.
What is the main problem with each channel in ESO? You literally can die during it if for some reasons you don't press block. This is enough to make channels and cast time abilities the most dangerous (for caster) attack type. I think it's a pretty high price, and OP ignores this fact.

Every stamina sorc hardcasts a crapload.
Every templar hardcasts and channels interruptable abilities a crapload.
Most good magica sorcs hardcast a lot.
Have you ever heared of snipe aswell (thats basically the only ability where getting interrupted has a real danger to it).

Valencer · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Someone interrupts Radiant Opression and still whines. I lol'ed

Tell me - what drawback does getting interrupted have when you have cc immunity?

I didn't understand your question, but nevermind. OP claims that channels have no counterplay. It's such a narrow-viewed position, that just amuses me.

How many hard casters are in Cyro? Almost zero. Why? Interrupts go through CC imminity. They don't stun but they also don't allow to cast. Bash is brainless.
What is the main problem with each channel in ESO? You literally can die during it if for some reasons you don't press block. This is enough to make channels and cast time abilities the most dangerous (for caster) attack type. I think it's a pretty high price, and OP ignores this fact.

Well, I wouldn't want to apply this to say crystal fragments or dark flare, as being interrupted already punishes you : you used ressources and you get no effect. (I guess you could say the same about dark deal)

Dark Deal doesnt cost anything until the channel actually finishes IIRC. It's what makes the skill such a no-brainer to spam.

Waffennacht · February 2017

How about waiting till their CC immunity is over? Or how about do something during their CC break?

How about being offensive to force them to heal themselves rather than keep attacking you?

How about you heal yourself and just take the damage?

How about you make your build stronger?

Etaniel · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

How about waiting till their CC immunity is over? Or how about do something during their CC break?

How about being offensive to force them to heal themselves rather than keep attacking you?

How about you heal yourself and just take the damage?

How about you make your build stronger?

The whole problem isn't in a 1v1 scenario, you have multiple people facing you. Of course I'll kill someone spamming jesus beam if no one is there to help him.

- Waiting till their immunity is over? So not interrupting that annoying execute for a whole 6 seconds? Letting someone get full ressources back with dark deal? Doesn't make sense.

- I am being offensive, i am casting an offensive skill + bash or deep breath, so they are taking damage. The problem is, there are people healing them. I shouldn't have to bash every second.

- Heal myself and take the damage. And become one of those useless tanks that annoy the hell out of everyone? I'm not whining about dying, I'm whining aobut the current counter play not being actual counter play.

-Make my build stronger? What does that even have to do here? Oh this guy keeps rezzing his friends, I better make my build stronger. Pure logic

Solariken · February 2017

Rikumaru wrote: »

Interrupts shouldn't prevent skill use, but should actually properly CC the caster forcing them to break wasting their stamina.

This.

And the bash interrupt CC should ignore regular CC immunity, whether from previously breaking free or immovable potions. Being bash interrupted should always cost you stamina to recover from.

Additionally, Uppercut and Snipe should become bashable again. I also agree that this would warrant a damage or utility buff to cast/channel abilities.

This would make the game's combat SOOO much more interesting!

Waffennacht · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How about waiting till their CC immunity is over? Or how about do something during their CC break?

How about being offensive to force them to heal themselves rather than keep attacking you?

How about you heal yourself and just take the damage?

How about you make your build stronger?

The whole problem isn't in a 1v1 scenario, you have multiple people facing you. Of course I'll kill someone spamming jesus beam if no one is there to help him.

- Waiting till their immunity is over? So not interrupting that annoying execute for a whole 6 seconds? Letting someone get full ressources back with dark deal? Doesn't make sense.

- I am being offensive, i am casting an offensive skill + bash or deep breath, so they are taking damage. The problem is, there are people healing them. I shouldn't have to bash every second.

- Heal myself and take the damage. And become one of those useless tanks that annoy the hell out of everyone? I'm not whining about dying, I'm whining aobut the current counter play not being actual counter play.

-Make my build stronger? What does that even have to do here? Oh this guy keeps rezzing his friends, I better make my build stronger. Pure logic

Oh in that case:

Get a bigger group. Done.

If you're not 1v1 and you're out numbered GG (as it should be, as the Devs ACTUALLY want it)

Sheuib · February 2017

I disagree. Interrupt is good just the way it is. Use destro or bow interrupts if you want something more effective.

Etaniel · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How about waiting till their CC immunity is over? Or how about do something during their CC break?

How about being offensive to force them to heal themselves rather than keep attacking you?

How about you heal yourself and just take the damage?

How about you make your build stronger?

The whole problem isn't in a 1v1 scenario, you have multiple people facing you. Of course I'll kill someone spamming jesus beam if no one is there to help him.

- Waiting till their immunity is over? So not interrupting that annoying execute for a whole 6 seconds? Letting someone get full ressources back with dark deal? Doesn't make sense.

- I am being offensive, i am casting an offensive skill + bash or deep breath, so they are taking damage. The problem is, there are people healing them. I shouldn't have to bash every second.

- Heal myself and take the damage. And become one of those useless tanks that annoy the hell out of everyone? I'm not whining about dying, I'm whining aobut the current counter play not being actual counter play.

-Make my build stronger? What does that even have to do here? Oh this guy keeps rezzing his friends, I better make my build stronger. Pure logic

Oh in that case:

Get a bigger group. Done.

If you're not 1v1 and you're out numbered GG (as it should be, as the Devs ACTUALLY want it)

First, not 1v1 can mean 3v5 for example, and lol, if I outnumber people of a vaslty inferior skill level, I fully deserve to wipe them (to a certain extent). You way or reasoning is why the game is in a terrible laggy state and the comunity is toxic. Bringing more people is the worst response possible.

Ashamray · February 2017

Derra wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

Someone interrupts Radiant Opression and still whines. I lol'ed

Tell me - what drawback does getting interrupted have when you have cc immunity?

I didn't understand your question, but nevermind. OP claims that channels have no counterplay. It's such a narrow-viewed position, that just amuses me.

How many hard casters are in Cyro? Almost zero. Why? Interrupts go through CC imminity. They don't stun but they also don't allow to cast. Bash is brainless.
What is the main problem with each channel in ESO? You literally can die during it if for some reasons you don't press block. This is enough to make channels and cast time abilities the most dangerous (for caster) attack type. I think it's a pretty high price, and OP ignores this fact.

Every stamina sorc hardcasts a crapload.
Every templar hardcasts and channels interruptable abilities a crapload.
Most good magica sorcs hardcast a lot.
Have you ever heared of snipe aswell (thats basically the only ability where getting interrupted has a real danger to it).

That wasn't the main point of my view. Casts you mentioned are not as hard as they seem to be.
Hardcasting on the top of keep wall or sniping from the bushes, or beaming from behind mates' backs, or craploading after streak aren't a true hard cast. It is a cast in relative safety, but still interrupt can ruin everything. It's cheap and quick, and it would be stupid if super fast ESO combat get a buffed interrupt. Casting isn't easy, interrupting is.

Thelon · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Get a bigger group. Done.

If you're not 1v1 and you're out numbered GG (as it should be, as the Devs ACTUALLY want it)

Waffennacht · February 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How about waiting till their CC immunity is over? Or how about do something during their CC break?

How about being offensive to force them to heal themselves rather than keep attacking you?

How about you heal yourself and just take the damage?

How about you make your build stronger?

The whole problem isn't in a 1v1 scenario, you have multiple people facing you. Of course I'll kill someone spamming jesus beam if no one is there to help him.

- Waiting till their immunity is over? So not interrupting that annoying execute for a whole 6 seconds? Letting someone get full ressources back with dark deal? Doesn't make sense.

- I am being offensive, i am casting an offensive skill + bash or deep breath, so they are taking damage. The problem is, there are people healing them. I shouldn't have to bash every second.

- Heal myself and take the damage. And become one of those useless tanks that annoy the hell out of everyone? I'm not whining about dying, I'm whining aobut the current counter play not being actual counter play.

-Make my build stronger? What does that even have to do here? Oh this guy keeps rezzing his friends, I better make my build stronger. Pure logic

Oh in that case:

Get a bigger group. Done.

If you're not 1v1 and you're out numbered GG (as it should be, as the Devs ACTUALLY want it)

First, not 1v1 can mean 3v5 for example, and lol, if I outnumber people of a vaslty inferior skill level, I fully deserve to wipe them (to a certain extent). You way or reasoning is why the game is in a terrible laggy state and the comunity is toxic. Bringing more people is the worst response possible.

... and if they are on your level? Do you feel like that makes it better?

And you're thinking 3v5 against equal skilled players should have a way for you to win? I don't

Etaniel · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How about waiting till their CC immunity is over? Or how about do something during their CC break?

How about being offensive to force them to heal themselves rather than keep attacking you?

How about you heal yourself and just take the damage?

How about you make your build stronger?

The whole problem isn't in a 1v1 scenario, you have multiple people facing you. Of course I'll kill someone spamming jesus beam if no one is there to help him.

- Waiting till their immunity is over? So not interrupting that annoying execute for a whole 6 seconds? Letting someone get full ressources back with dark deal? Doesn't make sense.

- I am being offensive, i am casting an offensive skill + bash or deep breath, so they are taking damage. The problem is, there are people healing them. I shouldn't have to bash every second.

- Heal myself and take the damage. And become one of those useless tanks that annoy the hell out of everyone? I'm not whining about dying, I'm whining aobut the current counter play not being actual counter play.

-Make my build stronger? What does that even have to do here? Oh this guy keeps rezzing his friends, I better make my build stronger. Pure logic

Oh in that case:

Get a bigger group. Done.

If you're not 1v1 and you're out numbered GG (as it should be, as the Devs ACTUALLY want it)

First, not 1v1 can mean 3v5 for example, and lol, if I outnumber people of a vaslty inferior skill level, I fully deserve to wipe them (to a certain extent). You way or reasoning is why the game is in a terrible laggy state and the comunity is toxic. Bringing more people is the worst response possible.

... and if they are on your level? Do you feel like that makes it better?

And you're thinking 3v5 against equal skilled players should have a way for you to win? I don't

In a 3v5 against equally skilled players, they won't try to rez mid combat, they won't jesus beam in melee range, they will cc me before trying to execute or root me before attempting to dark deal etc

danno8 · February 2017

I think classes other than Templar should get some of their more popular skills converted to a channel skill. We might not have to adjust the counter-play if that happens.

Derra · February 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How about waiting till their CC immunity is over? Or how about do something during their CC break?

How about being offensive to force them to heal themselves rather than keep attacking you?

How about you heal yourself and just take the damage?

How about you make your build stronger?

The whole problem isn't in a 1v1 scenario, you have multiple people facing you. Of course I'll kill someone spamming jesus beam if no one is there to help him.

- Waiting till their immunity is over? So not interrupting that annoying execute for a whole 6 seconds? Letting someone get full ressources back with dark deal? Doesn't make sense.

- I am being offensive, i am casting an offensive skill + bash or deep breath, so they are taking damage. The problem is, there are people healing them. I shouldn't have to bash every second.

- Heal myself and take the damage. And become one of those useless tanks that annoy the hell out of everyone? I'm not whining about dying, I'm whining aobut the current counter play not being actual counter play.

-Make my build stronger? What does that even have to do here? Oh this guy keeps rezzing his friends, I better make my build stronger. Pure logic

Oh in that case:

Get a bigger group. Done.

If you're not 1v1 and you're out numbered GG (as it should be, as the Devs ACTUALLY want it)

Any reply coming even remotely close to tackling the thought procces creating this flight of fancy in your comment would probably get me permanently banned on these forums.

DHale · February 2017

I play a lot of pvp, not seeing this as a problem.

X3ina · February 2017

After interrupting you cannot interrupt anyone for the same 5-10 seconds then ?

Waffennacht · February 2017

Edit: let me fix that and be nice.

I do not advocate making it easier to prevent your opponent from making actions, that seems like a really un fun way of playing a game. Even more so in lag.

If you want to change things, you should advocate making it easier to complete abilities that are on par.

Making it easier to interrupt an opponent is clearly an offensive buff. You get to prevent their actions (meaning your action was not prevented) this makes for lopsided battles.

In a game where offensive capabilities are just now being matched by defensive ones, I do not support another buff to offensive actions.