Leandor wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

10000 crowns. That is 60 euros. 60 euros pay for half of my monthly heating cost. Or a week of food. Or a month of unlimited mobile phone usage.

The players paying this amount of cash for an ingame gadget without any use (the rightfully claimed use like dummy, craft stations, etc. has to be acquired separately!) have a very serious lack of common sense.

Sadly, Z0$ will once again get away with this. People will pay this and more. It's a sad world we live in.

It's less than I'd spend on a single night out with friends. Let's be realistic here, for time spent playing vs. total cost, ESO is an incredibly cheap hobby, especially as there's nothing in the crown store that you need to buy. It's definitely the cheapest hobby I have by a long shot.

Edit: for the record, I'm not saying that there aren't crown store items that are overpriced. There definitely are. Every crown store motif that can be obtained in-game is overpriced, and that's been the case since they first started selling them for crowns. It's crazy that so many people are out of joint over the price of the Dro'mAthra motif, when it's the same price as every other "exotic" motif once you factor in the mimic stones you get with it. But even with these overpriced items, ESO is still a very cheap hobby.

60 euros for a night out? We go to different kinds of venues then.

Or I drink more than you do during a night out lol

Leandor wrote: »

That aside, it is of course personal preference on how each spends his money. That does not change the fact that this kind of money does have a tangible cost if compared to real life.

So does spending 60 bucks on a night out. With a night out, you have at least the next day hang over to remind you of what you did.

The bold part is exactly the point, and it invalidates what you said earlier about people spending this amount on something they enjoy in a game having "a very serious lack of common sense." That's just you being judgemental about people who find that the enjoyment they get out of something in-game that you consider to be "without any use" (when for most people who want housing the "use" is being able to have a place of their own in-game that they can decorate and set up the way they like it) is worth the price.

Compared to almost any hobby, the amount an average player spends on ESO in any given year is really very low (yes, you could make it high by buying everything in the crown store, but you can do basically the same thing with almost any hobby). Look at how much it costs to play golf, or play hockey, or boating, or skydiving, or go-carting, or paintball, hell even going to the movies regularly. The point is that whether something for entertainment is worth spending the money on has nothing to do with whether someone has "a very serious lack of common sense" as you so insultingly claim, it has to do with how much the person will enjoy it, and whether that specific person considers it to be worth the cost on that basis.

And the part on common sense is still valid for me. There is a difference between "uuhh, a bit costly, that (night out/sports equipment/ingame gadget/etc.)" and "oh really". 10k crowns, 60 euros. A six months sub is 64 euros. The house has the same value as 6 months playing?

No. As offensive as it may sound, the prices given are beyond common sense. Especially since the furnished island retreat is probably twice that amount.

It's offensive because you're assuming that just because you don't consider it to have enough entertainment value for the price, that means that anybody who does feel that it has enough entertainment value for the price is wrong. Although, to be honest the only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that you're incapable of conceiving that other people could enjoy different things than you do, and that other people could therefore place different values on things than you do. And that just makes me very very sad for you.

That's your prerogative to do, as it is mine to have an opinion, even though it is not a whitewashed, politically correctly expressed and sensitive opinion.

As I have written before, I very well know there will be people that buy them and justify this as reasonable price since they will have years of fun with it.

I just exercise my right to have and voice an opinion on them, same as you calling me sad for having it.

EDIT: Also, this is dangerously approaching an "arguing on the internet..." situation. Let's just leave it at having a different opinion on the issue and a lack of understanding of the other's opinion.

You're missing the point entirely. The point is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and yet you're dismissing everyone whose opinion differs from your own as "lacking common sense" when in fact they just place different value on different things than you. And that's why I feel very sad for you, because it means that you truly can't understand that other people aren't just mirrors of the way you think.

You think that the prices are too high and simply not worth it for you? That's 100% fine - it's your opinion and you're completely entitled to feel that way. When you effectively call anyone who disagrees with you a moron (which is what you do when you say that they all have "a very serious lack of common sense") then all you're doing is showing your total intolerance of anyone whose opinion differs from your own. You say "let's leave it at having a different opinion on the issue" and yet you feel the need to denigrate the intelligence of everyone whose opinion doesn't match yours. It makes me very sad for you.

/unsub

I voted Sensible!

You freeloaders expect ZOS to keep the lights on by selling potatoes and undesirable items in the crown store..


Even worse is the fact that these same people have the stones to make post on the forums about broken mechanics and bugs that ZOS needs to fix, but then you expect them to do all of this by selling unwanted garbage in the crown store?

Svenja wrote: »

I am very surprised by those prices, because ZOS has gone crazy with crown store prices in the recent past. After the horrendous amounts of crowns they charged for the elk mount (4.5k) and now the Dro-m'athra motif (6k) I was expecting the prices for unfurnished homes to be a LOT higher than what they announced on ESO Live.
To be honest, after what happened to the Crown Store in the last few months, I was 100% convinced the 13.5k crowns I have from my sub (I never buy crowns outside of my ESO+) wouldn't be enough to buy the large house I want and was therefore farming and selling like crazy the last weeks so I could buy everything with gold. I want to furnish it myself and that will get pretty expensive with ingame gold as well. Now I am actually considering to buy the unfurnished home with my sub crowns to save more gold for furnishing.

Sure, it's still a lot of real money for some pixels. But in comparison to other crown store items, the prices are surprisingly low. Heck, we have a single robe (!!) for 1200 crowns at the moment..
Plus, I don't know what else to buy with all my saved crowns, as I don't want to support the clown crates.

And this is exactly why ZOS released the elk mount and the dro'mathra motif at those prices, right before housng. If they hadn't done that, the response to house prices would be totally different right now. It's a sly marketing trick, but it works

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

So @Gandrhulf_Harbard your opinion is that anyone who feels it provides enough entertainment value for them to be worth the price for them is wrong? Then you learned nothing from the conversation you're describing, because you're showing that you can't accept their right to an opinion different from your own. I strongly urge you to go back to this man you describe and have a long conversation with him so that you can come to accept that other people aren't wrong for having opinions that differ from yours.

@UrQuan

Yes I believe they are wrong. I already said that. But that's perfectly acceptable because on such an issue there is no objective truth, there is only subjective truths. I don't think any the less of anyone who chooses to spend real-world money on Homesteads. It's their money, they are free to do with it exactly what they want.

You misunderstand the conversation entirely, it wasn't about people's right to hold different opinions - which is frankly a given in any civilised society. And I can't go back to talk to him, he died many years ago.

It was about it being OK for me to say "in my opinion you are wrong, but that's fine, we can agree to disagree" and to do so without fear of being censured by someone claiming to be offended because I said it.

I'm happy for you to have an opinion different to my own, I'll defend to my death your right to do so (in fact more than once I have received very specific and targeted death-threats for doing exactly that).

The flip side of that is I expect the right to be able to say "hang on, I think your wrong" without it being assumed that a) I don't accept people's rights to have different opinions - to my own, and to each others', and b) that somehow I have insulted you because I happen to think you are wrong.

All The Best

So the entire crux of everything I've been saying to @Leandor is that different people are allowed to have different opinions on subjective matters, that doesn't make them "wrong", and it's sad that some people are so closed-minded that they have to insult the intelligence of people whose opinions differ from their own on entirely subjective matters.

And you keep saying that's wrong. But at the same time that you disagree with me (and remember that what you're disagreeing with is me saying that it's OK for people to have different opinions without being wrong, and that it's sad when people can't understand that and instead have to insult them), you're trying to say that it's OK for people to have different opinions. And yet you're saying that I'm wrong when I say it's OK for people to have different opinions. I don't know that I've ever seen someone contradict themselves so much in just 2 posts.

Reasonable for something you can get for ingame gold.

$100+ crazy. I find it insane that ppl spent $300+ on crown crates

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Considering the gold cost, 10k crowns is a lot cheaper than I expected. For all the pissing and moaning about it, $80 isn't much.

Good, then you'll have no problems buying every house with crowns

I think paying the extra for imax 3d movies in the theaters is about right .
my friend really disagrees and goes to see them at second run for a fraction of that.

But he doesn't in anyway make the illogical jump from that to "so you should go see every 3d imax movie they make."

it makes no sense - a doesn't follow from b.

Just because i think a gallon of milk i want to buy is a fair price doesn't mean i should buy all the gallons of milk there are or that doing so would be no problem?

Who thinks this way? How does this leap make sense?

UrQuan wrote: »

@Gandrhulf_Harbard so let's be perfectly 100% clear: you believe I'm wrong when I say that it's OK for people to hold different opinions about subjective matters, and that it's sad to insult the intelligence of people with different opinions than yours? If that's the case, then I'm very sad for you as well.

@UrQuan an

Except I have never said any of that.

That is just a complete, and perhaps deliberate, misunderstanding of my position by you.

UrQuan wrote: »

Keep in mind that at no point have I taken offense at anything in this thread.

Then why did you say this:

It's offensive because you're assuming that just because you don't consider it to have enough entertainment value for the price, that means that anybody who does feel that it has enough entertainment value for the price is wrong.

UrQuan wrote: »

I just find it very sad when people can't conceive that other people can think differently than they do,

And nowhere have I expressed such an opinion. Please read what I write, not what you want me to have written.

I have quite clearly stated that I will defend you right to hold a different opinion than me to my death.

And for the record I mean that - Freedom Of Speech and its concomitant Freedom Of Thought is - in my opinion - the only thing that should be considered "sacred"

UrQuan wrote: »

and when those people think it's OK to insult those people for it. Hell, the insulting things said by @Leandor can't even be directed at me, so why would I take offense at them?

It is not by any stretch of the imagination "insulting" for me to say "hang on, in my opinion you are wrong".

That is NOT an insult; someone would in my opinion have to supremely insecure about their own opinions and very probably their intellect to see such as an insult.

All The Best

STEVIL wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Kyle1983b14_ESO wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Considering the gold cost, 10k crowns is a lot cheaper than I expected. For all the pissing and moaning about it, $80 isn't much.

Good, then you'll have no problems buying every house with crowns

I think paying the extra for imax 3d movies in the theaters is about right .
my friend really disagrees and goes to see them at second run for a fraction of that.

But he doesn't in anyway make the illogical jump from that to "so you should go see every 3d imax movie they make."

it makes no sense - a doesn't follow from b.

Just because i think a gallon of milk i want to buy is a fair price doesn't mean i should buy all the gallons of milk there are or that doing so would be no problem?

Who thinks this way? How does this leap make sense?

Well just thought that was what he was aiming for, he claims its cheap so therefore why not buy more than 1?

How does "buy more than one" morph into "buying every house" between your brain and the keyboard then?

or dont you see a difference?

No difference, if he bought all of them then yes that is more than one isn't it?

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

@Gandrhulf_Harbard so let's be perfectly 100% clear: you believe I'm wrong when I say that it's OK for people to hold different opinions about subjective matters, and that it's sad to insult the intelligence of people with different opinions than yours? If that's the case, then I'm very sad for you as well.

@UrQuan an

Except I have never said any of that.

But you did when you told me that I'm wrong. Because everything that I've been saying has been that it's OK for people to hold different opinions about subjective matters, and that it's sad to insult their intelligence for holding a different opinion. That's what you've been telling me I'm wrong about, because that's what I've been saying this whole time.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

That is just a complete, and perhaps deliberate, misunderstanding of my position by you.

UrQuan wrote: »

Keep in mind that at no point have I taken offense at anything in this thread.

Then why did you say this:

It's offensive because you're assuming that just because you don't consider it to have enough entertainment value for the price, that means that anybody who does feel that it has enough entertainment value for the price is wrong.

Saying that something is offensive is not the same as taking offense to something. There are plenty of things that are offensive to the people they are directed towards that I wouldn't take offense to. That doesn't mean I won't call someone out for being offensive to those other people. In fact, I'm more likely to call people out for being offensive to other people than I am if I take offense to something. Actually, that's not entirely true. It would be much more accurate to say that I almost never take offense at anything myself, which is why I'll almost never call someone out over something I took offense to.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

I just find it very sad when people can't conceive that other people can think differently than they do,

And nowhere have I expressed such an opinion. Please read what I write, not what you want me to have written.

Except you did when you said I was wrong that people can have their own opinions about subjective matters, and that having different opinions doesn't make them wrong.

I'm starting to think that you haven't understood a single thing that I've said in this thread and each time you quote me and say "you're wrong" is actually you not understanding what you're saying I'm wrong about.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

I have quite clearly stated that I will defend you right to hold a different opinion than me to my death.

And for the record I mean that - Freedom Of Speech and its concomitant Freedom Of Thought is - in my opinion - the only thing that should be considered "sacred"

And that's where you've been contradicting yourself by constantly saying that I'm wrong, and then saying things like that. But again, I'm starting to think that you didn't understand my position at all when you've said that I'm wrong.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

and when those people think it's OK to insult those people for it. Hell, the insulting things said by @Leandor can't even be directed at me, so why would I take offense at them?

It is not by any stretch of the imagination "insulting" for me to say "hang on, in my opinion you are wrong".

That is NOT an insult; someone would in my opinion have to supremely insecure about their own opinions and very probably their intellect to see such as an insult.

All The Best

Nothing you have said has been insulting, and nowhere did I say that anything you've said has been insulting. @Leandor is the one insulting the intelligence of people who disagree, not you.

You keep on saying I'm wrong that people shouldn't insult those who disagree with them, mind you. As I said above though, I'm starting to think that's because you haven't understood any of what I've been saying. So I'm starting to think that when you're telling me I'm wrong about it, it's not necessarily because you agree with @Leandor that it's fine to insult the intelligence of people who disagree with you about subjective matters. I'm starting to think that it's because you just haven't understood what it is that you're saying "you're wrong" to.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

You keep on saying I'm wrong that people shouldn't insult those who disagree with them,

I don't keep saying that.
I have NEVER said that.

Only your complete misunderstanding of what I wrote makes you think that.

I responded to YOUR words as expressed in the quote by you in my first post in this thread.

You started with "It is offensive".

I said that you were wrong in claiming it was offensive. That is all.

Everything since then has been you misunderstanding, or misrepresenting what I have written.

And on that note I'll bow out.

Better things to do that go around in circles.

All The Best

OK, that confirms that you didn't understand what I was saying when you first said that I was wrong, because the entire point of the post you responded to is that people shouldn't insult those who hold different opinions on subjective matters, whereas you seem to have missed that context and latched onto the "it is offensive" part. So agreed, everything since then between us has been us misunderstanding each other.

And on that note I'll bow out too, because on reflection I think we're both largely saying the same thing. You misunderstood what my point was when you first replied to me, and I misunderstood what your point was when I replied to you. I place the blame for these misunderstanding on both of us. I'd be willing to bet that this never would have happened with a conversation in person rather than via text on the internet. Those misunderstandings aside, I think we're mostly on the same page on the topic.

:thumbsup:

It's quite funny to be used as the butt end of a discussion on freedom of opinion. Please continue.

But @UrQuan , stop insinuating things I am supposed to have said, just to prove your opinion. Things that are completely wrong and invented by you.

I never even once mentioned intelligence or lack thereof. I said common sense, which is a very different thing. I myself have at times lost my common sense, and exactly in this kind of situation, where I have spend hilarious amounts of money and justified it with "entertainment values".

I also know that I am in the upper quarter of measurable intellect, which, while not being a direct indication of intelligence, is a fairly good indicator of tendencies. Again, I did choose the expressions used above deliberately and with care.

The only person who tried and still tries to drag this discussion down into the realms of "you are stupid, no you are stupid" is you.

Me buying a house in game for the same amount of money as a week's worth of food (and that is a very low estimate), which I do since I can't or don't want to spend the time playing the game to earn it with virtual currency, thus indicating that the "value" I get from it may be significantly influenced by my need for prestige, shows a lack of common sense.

Even if this money is paid for an item that will be in constant use by me, where does this stop? Is the cup for 400 crowns also "worth it"? Will said hypothetical person buying the house, dump another 20k crowns on the interior? Will (s)he then start to spend her/his valuable gaming time with farming the hilarious amount of ingredients required to furnish it?

If yes, why not spend a fraction of the time to earn the gold (virtual currency) to pay for it instead of serious cash?

Yes, the prices Z0$ starts to ask have lost their relation to the value we get. The only way to stop this, is by not paying it.

And to those who call me freeloader, I am subscribed since April 2014, without a single lapse. I have spend around 1000$ in crowns since its implementation, own almost every costume, a plethora of pets and mounts and I am perfectly ok with that. I also can afford this easily. You could call me whale.

Why? Because I do understand that they are a business. Because I do have fun and deem the odd 400 or 700 or even 1000 crown piece worth it.

But they have now breached a border that is simply not acceptable. Us condoning it, this is, a little more elaborately said, the lack of common sense that I attributed to everyone considering to pay this.

And again. It wasn't me who called anyone stupid or, to use @UrQuan 's words, "not intelligent".

If you consider me questioning your motivation to actually pay that amount as an insult, I question your conviction on your position. Would you be completely ok with dropping that amount and not concerned that it may result in some cut backs in other areas, you should actually not feel insulted.

And I don't even have to quote-dissect other posts to prove my point. Also, excuse my at times complicated way of explaining issues, English is not my native language.