Balance shields properly zos hear me out

hassubhai · January 2017

There are a lot of issues with shields, namely: hardened ward, harness magicka.

I feel like the main issue with shields is the fact that in a 1v1 fight they are extremely good maybe even overpowered slightly. You can easily stack them and make yourself insanely difficult to kill. Even in a 2v1 its still sustainable to keep alive with shields.

But then when it comes to a 3 or 4v1 depending on the damage output of the enemy players, shields become pretty crappy and it feels like when you play a magicka sorc that you are very limited in your outplay potential because your survivability relies so much on shields.

I think zos should find a way to make them less effective in 1v1 fights but make them still relevant in 1vX fights.

To compare shields to other survivablity mechanics, shields is far weaker when used in a 1vX situation. The reason for this is that other survivability mechanics are designed in such a way that they are just as effective in a 1v1 and 1vX, an example of these defense mechanics im referring to is things like dodge roll, blocking/mtigating, even healing seems to be alot more effective than shields.

What do you guys think about the points ive raised would love to hear your opinions

aLi3nZ · January 2017

Seems like a great idea to me. People would hate on sorcs so much if this was balanced like this though. Eg reduce damage taken to shields by 10%if attacked by another player within 3 seconds....this can stack up to 5 times

technohic · January 2017

I would reduce/remove the battle spirit nerf and then have shield deteriorate over time.

Tan9oSuccka · January 2017

Nah. The shield stacking was out of hand.

If four people are beating on you, that shouldn't last too long.

tunepunk · January 2017

So you mean they should work like brawler?

The more enemies you hit the stronger the shield?

Maybe a magicka version of brawler? A small AOE damage, and based on enemies hit it increases?

hassubhai · January 2017

tunepunk wrote: »

So you mean they should work like brawler?

The more enemies you hit the stronger the shield?

Maybe a magicka version of brawler? A small AOE damage, and based on enemies hit it increases?

Sort of yeh, in the current meta you have to be a brawler to actually be able to do anything either that or you dodge everything. Magsorc feels too powerful in 1v1 but too weak in 1vX when compared to other classes imo

mewcatus · January 2017

Whats wrong with Magsorc being strong 1 v 1 but weak in 1 v X ? Duels is not even a main event. And having some classes being bad against being ganked in small numbers but weaker against against larger groups sounds like a fair trade off versus others which function better versus large group.

I personally find it fair then not all small groups (1, 2) gankers are effective versus all classes. If anything. Gankers in small numbers should be ineffective versus some classes in small combat situation and that sounds like a good-rock-paper scissors balance. They really don't deserve a free pass to be effective against small numbers in all situations.

hassubhai · January 2017

mewcatus wrote: »

Whats wrong with Magsorc being strong 1 v 1 but weak in 1 v X ? Duels is not even a main event. And having some classes being bad against being ganked in small numbers but weaker against against larger groups sounds like a fair trade off versus others which function better versus large group.

I personally find it fair then not all small groups (1, 2) gankers are effective versus all classes. If anything. Gankers in small numbers should be ineffective versus some classes in small combat situation and that sounds like a good-rock-paper scissors balance.

But its not as if magsorc murders everything in 1v1, 1v1 is just a magsorc's strength but when compared to other classes it is just as good as alot of other builds such as 2h bow stam builds in heavy, magplars, magblade, magdk, sword and board stam builds the list goes on. The difference is that most of the builds i mentioned have major strengths in 1vX aswell, (blocking, dodge rolling, insane healing, purify and even cloak to an extent. All of these scale into 1vX except shields which simply fall off

mewcatus · January 2017

hassubhai wrote: »

mewcatus wrote: »

Whats wrong with Magsorc being strong 1 v 1 but weak in 1 v X ? Duels is not even a main event. And having some classes being bad against being ganked in small numbers but weaker against against larger groups sounds like a fair trade off versus others which function better versus large group.

I personally find it fair then not all small groups (1, 2) gankers are effective versus all classes. If anything. Gankers in small numbers should be ineffective versus some classes in small combat situation and that sounds like a good-rock-paper scissors balance.

But its not as if magsorc murders everything in 1v1, 1v1 is just a magsorc's strength but when compared to other classes it is just as good as alot of other builds such as 2h bow stam builds in heavy, magplars, magblade, magdk, sword and board stam builds the list goes on. The difference is that most of the builds i mentioned have major strengths in 1vX aswell, (blocking, dodge rolling, insane healing, purify and even cloak to an extent. All of these scale into 1vX except shields which simply fall off

So how is that not fair then ? Considering that dueling is not even an official thing. If anything, I find it fair that Gankers still have a particular build which they have to be wary of in 1 v 1 situation. They can pretty much win in 1 v 1 vs other classes, especially when they come out of stealth. You don't actually see MagSorcs stealthing to attempt to dps players out. If anything, with all of the flashy and loud animations and effect the Mag Sorcs have, anyone can see it a mile away and can escape easily. The same can't be said of stealth based classes.

And I find that fair. Gankers will be effective vs most of the other classes except magSorcs. They should not be given free rein over all gank situations. magSorcs as said are less and less effective in 1 v X situation where other classes and specs arguably perform better. And I find that a perfectly okie trade off. Not all classes should function the same way. Shields personify that. Why should everything be exactly be the same for all ?

Kodrac · January 2017

hassubhai wrote: »

TI feel like the main issue with shields is the fact that in a 1v1 fight [SNIP]

I don't think we need to be balancing the game around dueling.

Danksta · January 2017

So we're just going to ignore the sorcs mobility while talking their survivability? This is a L2K (learn to kite) issue.

Chilly-McFreeze · January 2017

With sorcs mobility you mean that cost increasing skill that doesn't even bring you out of gap closer range?

technohic · January 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

With sorcs mobility you mean that cost increasing skill that doesn't even bring you out of gap closer range?

Well; to be fair, when we are comparing it to dodge roll as a defensive ability, that doesn't take you out of gap closer range either.

Danksta · January 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

With sorcs mobility you mean that cost increasing skill that doesn't even bring you out of gap closer range?

Streak, streak, streak, dark conversion, repeat as necessary. Don't even need to use dark conversion if you're using lich, which you pretty much should if you're a sorc.

SilentQ · January 2017

Lul

If you are playing 1v2 or any number, you should lose unless you significantly out skill them. Complaining that you can't do well versus three or four players is absurd.

"I walked outside in a robe and four people beat me up. Life needs to balance this in my favour. Numbers should be irrelevant."

Qbiken · January 2017

Lol, harness and hardened shield doesn´t need a nerf, or fix for that matter. They are in a fine place atm.

hassubhai · January 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

Lol, harness and hardened shield doesn´t need a nerf, or fix for that matter. They are in a fine place atm.

Isnt that like me saying "proc sets are in a fine place atm and dont need changes" aside from the statement being very wrong you should provide some explanation for your answer dont you think?

Qbiken · January 2017

hassubhai wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lol, harness and hardened shield doesn´t need a nerf, or fix for that matter. They are in a fine place atm.

Isnt that like me saying "proc sets are in a fine place atm and dont need changes" aside from the statement being very wrong you should provide some explanation for your answer dont you think?

Because of the short duration of all shields. Sure they can be stacked and provide a lot of surviveability, but reapplying all shields every 6 seconds will make you run out of magicka in a wink, therefore balance

hassubhai · January 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lol, harness and hardened shield doesn´t need a nerf, or fix for that matter. They are in a fine place atm.

Isnt that like me saying "proc sets are in a fine place atm and dont need changes" aside from the statement being very wrong you should provide some explanation for your answer dont you think?

Because of the short duration of all shields. Sure they can be stacked and provide a lot of surviveability, but reapplying all shields every 6 seconds will make you run out of magicka in a wink, therefore balance

With all due respect, did you even read the post?

olsborg · January 2017

Remove the stacking of shields, if you cast another type of shield, it should function just like if you cast the same kinda shield over again, it overwrites the previous ones.

andreasranasen · January 2017

Don't EVER come for us Mag Sorcs. We will go all Mannimarco on you!

mewcatus · January 2017

The way I see it, balance currently isn't done Street Fighter style, catering to 1 v 1 brawls. Rather more like Star craft style, whereby unit composition, roles and situation are far more important. And that is perfectly okay. I already stated my reasons why, and they align perfectly with the OP's observations. The difference is I disagree that all classes should be shoe horned into a specific mould.

I see Sorcs like Elephants, hard to bring down in small groups, but can be sighted a mile away. Non predatory, but yet strong enough defensively to hold out/defeat against singular/small groups of predators. Its like an eco system.

Minalan · January 2017

As @Derra pointed out, shield stacking with harness is currently ridiculous and cost free if you fight a magicka player. The magicka return on that needs to be cut to a third or less. A strong defense should never be 'free'.

We disagree somewhat in that harness/hardened stacking is OP, because dampen is expensive as hell and you don't get any of it back. Sure you can go all easy-mode defensive, but it's expensive and you can't keep it going forever. (7-8K per stack? And you're refreshing a LOT more under any pressure, so regen ticks won't entirely save you.)

It'd be nice if sorc didn't have to stack, and stam nightblade/stam sorc damage was somewhat reasonable. But it isn't, so here we are.

We have yet to see if heavy armor Templar ice staff defense stacking is overpowered, I suspect it'll be worse than shield stacking and people will have something much bigger to complain about.

acw37162 · January 2017

Hard pass almost any time a player tries to fix shields.

Also what class actually feels strong 1 v 4 plus

cheemers · January 2017

Pirate skeleton gives shields an insane 1vX scaling coefficient. Shields are far more consistent and effective than dodge rolling, which not only has a cost stack but does absolutely nothing to mitigate the most prevalent and dangerous attacks in the game. In contrast, there is only 1 enchant and 1 armour set that can do anything to ignore the massive artificial health points provided by damage shields.

See how effective dodge rolling is vs a Grothdarr/Sweeps templar compared to a build using Harness Magicka. To be perfectly honest shields need cost stacking if they are reapplied over an existing shield. MagSorc is going to 100% be the meta in the Homestead patch when the unrivalled strengths of Pirate Skeleton and Dark Conversion are fully understood by the community. Add onto that 13% more powerful 15% cheaper Execute-proccing Eye of Lightning and non-magsorcs should ready themselves to be in for a seriously bad time.

Update 13 - sorcs rule supreme in PvE and PvP.

Derra · January 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Pirate skeleton gives shields an insane 1vX scaling coefficient. Shields are far more consistent and effective than dodge rolling, which not only has a cost stack but does absolutely nothing to mitigate the most prevalent and dangerous attacks in the game. In contrast, there is only 1 enchant and 1 armour set that can do anything to ignore the massive artificial health points provided by damage shields.

See how effective dodge rolling is vs a Grothdarr/Sweeps templar compared to a build using Harness Magicka. To be perfectly honest shields need cost stacking if they are reapplied over an existing shield. MagSorc is going to 100% be the meta in the Homestead patch when the unrivalled strengths of Pirate Skeleton and Dark Conversion are fully understood by the community. Add onto that 13% more powerful 15% cheaper Execute-proccing Eye of Lightning and non-magsorcs should ready themselves to be in for a seriously bad time.

Update 13 - sorcs rule supreme in PvE and PvP.

So pirate skeleton and harness magica are too good - nerf sorcs?

NewBlacksmurf · January 2017

Ur suppose to die if outnumbered

Praeficere · January 2017

Here's an idea:

Shields could have a decay over time.

In a 1vX scenario this wouldn't matter as the damage from multiple people would be too much for the decay to be relevant.

In a 1v1 this would weaken Sorcs in sustained fights, but not effect those based on burst damage (already existing weakness of Sorcs).

Perhaps we could extend the duration of shields if a decay mechanic was implemented.

Mojomonkeyman · January 2017

cheemers wrote: »

Pirate skeleton gives shields an insane 1vX scaling coefficient. Shields are far more consistent and effective than dodge rolling, which not only has a cost stack but does absolutely nothing to mitigate the most prevalent and dangerous attacks in the game. In contrast, there is only 1 enchant and 1 armour set that can do anything to ignore the massive artificial health points provided by damage shields.

See how effective dodge rolling is vs a Grothdarr/Sweeps templar compared to a build using Harness Magicka. To be perfectly honest shields need cost stacking if they are reapplied over an existing shield. MagSorc is going to 100% be the meta in the Homestead patch when the unrivalled strengths of Pirate Skeleton and Dark Conversion are fully understood by the community. Add onto that 13% more powerful 15% cheaper Execute-proccing Eye of Lightning and non-magsorcs should ready themselves to be in for a seriously bad time.

Update 13 - sorcs rule supreme in PvE and PvP.

Actually, without any direct "nerf sorc" implication, I wholeheartedly agree with the guy in regards to what class I predict to be at the top of the foodchain (together with mag dks), for the same reasons, basically. I think hes spot on.

Vaoh · January 2017

I'm not sure it's a shield or even a Mag Sorc specific problem.

Damage potential is just way too high atm. You can oneshot ppl from stealth with even using full-fledged ganking setups. It's a joke.

Also worth noting that the proc set nerf will have zero effect on helping Magicka Sorc survivability

Shields cannot be critically hit, but have 0 resistance as a balance. This causes damage creeps to be much more noticeable vs shields as well.

I would hope for a duration buff on Conjured Ward to promote not casting shields every 5sec over a strength or other type of buff. The damage creep is the main issue, as we don't get %damage reduction via resistances to counteract it (as we almost solely rely on shields).

Massive_Stain · January 2017

hassubhai wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lol, harness and hardened shield doesn´t need a nerf, or fix for that matter. They are in a fine place atm.

Isnt that like me saying "proc sets are in a fine place atm and dont need changes" aside from the statement being very wrong you should provide some explanation for your answer dont you think?

Someone's hating on sorcs again.. That's the true meta.