So because there is worse out there, we shouldn't call out ZOS' bs?

Congratulations. Welcome to the internet and a healthy consumer-corporate relationship.

It' s not our jobs to praise them because others are worse, or because their job is hard. That's not my concern. They are not my friends.

It's our job to encourage them (with feedback and money) when they do something we like, and to shout and close our wallets when they *** us off. I will never understand people's "loyalty" to companies. It's nonsense.

Can we disagree on the things we dislike? Hell yes, and sometimes we should. But to lavish praise for the sake of lavishing praise, and to belittle those who complain isn't productive at all. Threads like this are ridiculous.

KimoBitz wrote: »

Yes,just as you read.ZOS deserves respect and support.

All my time on the forums I read threads about people complaining about the crown store and its prices,about the crown crates and it's rip-off RNG.

Well tell you what, you should be grateful.As a player who used to play destiny and put countless hours into this game. I found out that its devs are more greedy then any other game developers out there,they drop their latest DLC and the only way to be able to play the game as its meant to be to be played is by purchasing this new content.However ZOS does not do that,they do not force you to buy thier content.Its totally up to you wether to spend your hard-earned money or not.

(I quit Destiny because of this)

Here ZOS here's your next whale till you milk them dry ..
Stop white knighting bad desisions and disgusting business methods maybe look at the gamble crates and the 6k crowns motif in the crown store .. love my arse.... they should be voted worse company for the year it be a change from EA getting it.. but deserved!!

They will get that from me if they fix crashing on PS4 pro and start releasing a decent amount of playable content.

They say that they are happy to support the pro but it's still broken after all this time?

I paid for this game. I continue to pay for a sub. I also sometimes pay for random packs of crowns when I feel like buying something. Not only do I do this for myself, but also my two sons.

Zenimax should be grateful to their subscribers. THEY should be grateful to the people who continue to play their game, which, while beautiful, can be incredibly buggy. They should be grateful for people spending money in the crown store, on items that deform their characters, or are just badly made, but aren't shown in previews, so you can't see these flaws until you've purchased the item.

Some people, like me, are still here because they initially had faith in the developers. However, in my case at least, that faith has taken quite the nosedive over the last 18 months or more, not only in the disgusting price hikes and con crates in the store, but the ridiculous "balances" , the cheaters that somehow manage to get away with it, while others seem to be banned for minor infractions, and the endless feedback that is always provided to them by the community that more often than not goes completely ignored.

I don't really have too much love for them right now. I would like to, but no.

KimoBitz wrote: »

ZOS deserves respect and support.

I agree with your sentiment and your intention. I have a lot of very positive things to say about the game and the Studio as a whole. I wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case. I have a lot of respect for the forum moderators in particular because i've done that job before.

But that should not mean I desist from providing feedback about things I don't like or don't agree with. That's my choice to make.

My lovin' involves a safe word

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're comparing ESO to Destiny and concluding that ZOS is doing good.
Destiny is a known problem but at least their game works and doesn't have a lot of known bugs lasting for over 6 months

Destiny also while it has issues, doesn't release expansions/DLC that add new bugs without addressing old ones

Disagree on this comparison, what other games have you experienced to offer comparison?

To be fair, every Elder Scrolls game is buggy. Every single one of them. It's an open world RPG, it's just too hard to keep all the bugs out.

Now, get back to work!

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're comparing ESO to Destiny and concluding that ZOS is doing good.
Destiny is a known problem but at least their game works and doesn't have a lot of known bugs lasting for over 6 months

Destiny also while it has issues, doesn't release expansions/DLC that add new bugs without addressing old ones

Disagree on this comparison, what other games have you experienced to offer comparison?

To be fair, every Elder Scrolls game is buggy. Every single one of them. It's an open world RPG, it's just too hard to keep all the bugs out.

@hmsdragonfly

I think you're trying to relate a ZOS game to a Bethesda game.
The teams are very different but that's not an acceptable reason not to fix a game that's been out almost 3 years who continues to create more issues while not addressing existing issues.

A few bugs are fine but things that flat out don't work most or all of the time isn't a bug

Look, I don't say "ZOS doesn't have to fix this fix that blah blah", it's their job to fix the bugs, what i am trying to say is that it is well-known that open world games of this size are always buggy, look at Morrowind, look at Oblivion, look at Skyrim, there are bugs that cannot be fixed in anyway, it's just impossible to fix without breaking more things.

Yes the teams are different, Morrowind team is different from Skyrim team but guess what, all of them are buggy. It doesn't matter which team makes the game, as an Elder Scrolls massive open world RPG with a lot of quests, a lot of things to do, codes are extremely complicated to the point that bugs aren't avoidable. If they streamline the game, like fewer quests, quests without outcome, fewer things to do, cut a lot of content from the game, then yeah it will be easier to prevent bugs from happening.

If you (or someone else) are talented enough to fix all the bugs, I bet not just ZOS or Bethesda, but every game developer will pay big money to hunt you down and make you working for them.

Yes, once again, it's their job to fix the bugs, but I understand why it's so hard and time consuming to fix them.

Seraphayel wrote: »

I respect ZOS for having made an amazing game. I don't respect them for the way they care, develop and support the game after that, especially since P2P.

If they want to be respected they should deliver content they promised years ago, should listen to the community a bit more and don't overprice the crown store stuff due to greed.

I agree with delivering content as promised. Don't make promises you can't deliver on.

However, listening to the community is a bad idea. Community members typically have narrow views about the game. The developers have to look at the game long term and how to make it profitable for them and if they listened to the community they would be out quit a bit of revenue and would probably close their doors. The developer has to do what it thinks is best for the game regardless of the community out cry.

Go look at DCUO, great example of what I just wrote. Community members have a choice, they can stay and continue with the game or leave. No one is forcing the players to stay, we stay on our own accord.

Love you ZOS!

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're comparing ESO to Destiny and concluding that ZOS is doing good.
Destiny is a known problem but at least their game works and doesn't have a lot of known bugs lasting for over 6 months

Destiny also while it has issues, doesn't release expansions/DLC that add new bugs without addressing old ones

Disagree on this comparison, what other games have you experienced to offer comparison?

To be fair, every Elder Scrolls game is buggy. Every single one of them. It's an open world RPG, it's just too hard to keep all the bugs out.

@hmsdragonfly

I think you're trying to relate a ZOS game to a Bethesda game.
The teams are very different but that's not an acceptable reason not to fix a game that's been out almost 3 years who continues to create more issues while not addressing existing issues.

A few bugs are fine but things that flat out don't work most or all of the time isn't a bug

Look, I don't say "ZOS doesn't have to fix this fix that blah blah", it's their job to fix the bugs, what i am trying to say is that it is well-known that open world games of this size are always buggy, look at Morrowind, look at Oblivion, look at Skyrim, there are bugs that cannot be fixed in anyway, it's just impossible to fix without breaking more things.

Yes the teams are different, Morrowind team is different from Skyrim team but guess what, all of them are buggy. It doesn't matter which team makes the game, as an Elder Scrolls massive open world RPG with a lot of quests, a lot of things to do, codes are extremely complicated to the point that bugs aren't avoidable. If they streamline the game, like fewer quests, quests without outcome, fewer things to do, cut a lot of content from the game, then yeah it will be easier to prevent bugs from happening.

If you (or someone else) are talented enough to fix all the bugs, I bet not just ZOS or Bethesda, but every game developer will pay big money to hunt you down and make you working for them.

Yes, once again, it's their job to fix the bugs, but I understand why it's so hard and time consuming to fix them.

@hmsdragonfly

Here is the actual reality tho. The Bethesda team is not and was never the ZOS dev team.

Furthermore:
its not bugs, its literally a lot of things that just don't work
Its literally things that are missing
its literally things that are a result from lack of quality checking
its literally things that come from not even asking the other companies where they publish the game how their ideas would work

Most open world games don't release updates that allow people to fall through the game and can't get back, or where they get stuck on loading screens, use items that say one thing and do another or nothing at all, games that charge real money for a service and but don't provide the full benefits, or areas of the game you pay for but that you can't access for months.

These are exact examples experienced, some which were fixed and others still remain but which all are in patch notes or a dev confirmation on the forums of from their ESO Live shows or Con interviews and official web articles.

A simple question, how much is your experience in coding? Not that I am a coder or anything, but i will take your words if you know a couple of programming languages and have experience in developing a software.

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're comparing ESO to Destiny and concluding that ZOS is doing good.
Destiny is a known problem but at least their game works and doesn't have a lot of known bugs lasting for over 6 months

Destiny also while it has issues, doesn't release expansions/DLC that add new bugs without addressing old ones

Disagree on this comparison, what other games have you experienced to offer comparison?

To be fair, every Elder Scrolls game is buggy. Every single one of them. It's an open world RPG, it's just too hard to keep all the bugs out.

It doesn't excuse some of these bugs; some that were so simple to get rid of AGES ago. Yet they pile on patch after patch claiming to 'fix' the problem and making it worse. I remember a time in Cyrodiil where it wasn't a slideshow. I remember a time when trials didn't throw the RNG lag (are you going to crash or are you going to die; decisions). I remember a time when the developers put the pro in professional (I miss you Paul Sage, you'll always be better than Wrobel ).

As for Bethesda games; the only thing I'll say in that regard is that it shouldn't matter. This isn't Bethesda and if you're depending on the modding community to fix your egregious bugs that are absolutely gamebreaking (NavMesh, Alchemy/Enchanting, numerous save game bloats/corruption, memory limits), then you have a problem. Likewise with ZoS; We send them the feedback reports. We send them screenshots, videos, forum posts, links from all around the web, and even show them on stream. Problems, including bugs still exist. Bots still exist. Lag still exists. When your game depends on some of these things to NOT exist, that's not a bug. That's a liability.

Edit: I'm also aware that bots aren't bugs, but it's still none the less a problem. It's not bugs that are solely the problem. It's the negligence of the community and having to tag Gina or Jessica to get anything heard. If anyone in this company deserves a raise, praise, or anything of that sort? IT'S THEM. Not ZoS.

IndyWendieGo wrote: »

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

You're comparing ESO to Destiny and concluding that ZOS is doing good.
Destiny is a known problem but at least their game works and doesn't have a lot of known bugs lasting for over 6 months

Destiny also while it has issues, doesn't release expansions/DLC that add new bugs without addressing old ones

Disagree on this comparison, what other games have you experienced to offer comparison?

To be fair, every Elder Scrolls game is buggy. Every single one of them. It's an open world RPG, it's just too hard to keep all the bugs out.

It doesn't excuse some of these bugs; some that were so simple to get rid of AGES ago. Yet they pile on patch after patch claiming to 'fix' the problem and making it worse. I remember a time in Cyrodiil where it wasn't a slideshow. I remember a time when trials didn't throw the RNG lag (are you going to crash or are you going to die; decisions). I remember a time when the developers put the pro in professional (I miss you Paul Sage, you'll always be better than Wrobel ).

As for Bethesda games; the only thing I'll say in that regard is that it shouldn't matter. This isn't Bethesda and if you're depending on the modding community to fix your egregious bugs that are absolutely gamebreaking (NavMesh, Alchemy/Enchanting, numerous save game bloats/corruption, memory limits), then you have a problem. Likewise with ZoS; We send them the feedback reports. We send them screenshots, videos, forum posts, links from all around the web, and even show them on stream. Problems, including bugs still exist. Bots still exist. Lag still exists. When your game depends on some of these things to NOT exist, that's not a bug. That's a liability.

Edit: I'm also aware that bots aren't bugs, but it's still none the less a problem. It's not bugs that are solely the problem. It's the negligence of the community and having to tag Gina or Jessica to get anything heard. If anyone in this company deserves a raise, praise, or anything of that sort? IT'S THEM. Not ZoS.

<Applause>