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Endgame PvE DPS needs adjustments before this patch goes live
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xblackroxe✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Not an even test if no VMA weapons or fracture was used. Also, the same guy that made those videos just did a 63K parse on a stam DK on Rakkhat HM.
https://gyazo.com/4eac3586b783a93a121fa331a6b5a022
I will fully admit that stam has draw backs in end game PVE, but the DPS is still ridiculous, just harder to stay up.
Problem is of course PVP. If a stam sorc had access to a 20k shield, they would be invincible.
Things like this are exactly the problem. ZOS sees only those parses and then concludes that stamina dps needs a nerf bc that 5-7k higher than what magicka can do singletarget.
What they fail to take into account is thats the only reason 1-2 stam chars are even present in raids on live. They have *** aoe dps and with *** i mean like 1/3-1/2 the dps and much worse survivability.
With the nerf to trap and the buff magicka there is 0 reason to bring stamina into raids after the patch.
Member of HODOR
Dro-m'Athra Destroyer4 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?Edited by Nifty2g on January 27, 2017 2:44AM#MOREORBS3 -
OrphanHelgen✭✭✭✭✭
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What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?
They have all the best buffs, raided together for years, and are the best guild in the world. That dps in the video are sick, but I think their magicka dmg are on top as well. Alcast himself made the thread about how they should buff stamina, and he is also the one playing this stamina dps. I think he knows what he is talking about.PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact
Finally a reason not to play League of Legends4 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Magicka is good for cleave and fake health, stamina is king for single target damage.OrphanHelgen wrote: »
What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?
They have all the best buffs, raided together for years, and are the best guild in the world. That dps in the video are sick, but I think their magicka dmg are on top as well. Alcast himself made the thread about how they should buff stamina, and he is also the one playing this stamina dps. I think he knows what he is talking about.
I know what it's like to have those group buffs. You also need to remember that some skills/classes scale a lot better with some of the group buffs going on which makes the damage go up even more.
Like I said, you have to tread lightly when asking for buffs to damage - I think there should be a lot of adjustments to survivability.#MOREORBS1 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Magicka is good for cleave and fake health, stamina is king for single target damage.OrphanHelgen wrote: »
What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?
They have all the best buffs, raided together for years, and are the best guild in the world. That dps in the video are sick, but I think their magicka dmg are on top as well. Alcast himself made the thread about how they should buff stamina, and he is also the one playing this stamina dps. I think he knows what he is talking about.
I know what it's like to have those group buffs. You also need to remember that some skills/classes scale a lot better with some of the group buffs going on which makes the damage go up even more.
Like I said, you have to tread lightly when asking for buffs to damage - I think there should be a lot of adjustments to survivability.
You're missing the point. Single Target damage isn't even all that relevant. Most PvE gameplay in this game is killing trash. Even if Mag setups sacrifice a little bit of DPS on single-target (which I have my doubts about anyway), the AoE DPS is really what matters.PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~4 -
DragonBound✭✭✭✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »
What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?
They have all the best buffs, raided together for years, and are the best guild in the world. That dps in the video are sick, but I think their magicka dmg are on top as well. Alcast himself made the thread about how they should buff stamina, and he is also the one playing this stamina dps. I think he knows what he is talking about.
I am new to alcast but his builds are very well thought out, check out his site.0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So you want stam to have highest aoe and single target while having good survivability.
Magicka is good for cleave and fake health, stamina is king for single target damage.OrphanHelgen wrote: »
What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?
They have all the best buffs, raided together for years, and are the best guild in the world. That dps in the video are sick, but I think their magicka dmg are on top as well. Alcast himself made the thread about how they should buff stamina, and he is also the one playing this stamina dps. I think he knows what he is talking about.
I know what it's like to have those group buffs. You also need to remember that some skills/classes scale a lot better with some of the group buffs going on which makes the damage go up even more.
Like I said, you have to tread lightly when asking for buffs to damage - I think there should be a lot of adjustments to survivability.
You're missing the point. Single Target damage isn't even all that relevant. Most PvE gameplay in this game is killing trash. Even if Mag setups sacrifice a little bit of DPS on single-target (which I have my doubts about anyway), the AoE DPS is really what matters.
Are you missing the point?
#MOREORBS2 -
cheemers✭✭✭✭✭
So you want stam to have highest aoe and single target while having good survivability.
Magicka is good for cleave and fake health, stamina is king for single target damage.OrphanHelgen wrote: »
What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?
They have all the best buffs, raided together for years, and are the best guild in the world. That dps in the video are sick, but I think their magicka dmg are on top as well. Alcast himself made the thread about how they should buff stamina, and he is also the one playing this stamina dps. I think he knows what he is talking about.
I know what it's like to have those group buffs. You also need to remember that some skills/classes scale a lot better with some of the group buffs going on which makes the damage go up even more.
Like I said, you have to tread lightly when asking for buffs to damage - I think there should be a lot of adjustments to survivability.
You're missing the point. Single Target damage isn't even all that relevant. Most PvE gameplay in this game is killing trash. Even if Mag setups sacrifice a little bit of DPS on single-target (which I have my doubts about anyway), the AoE DPS is really what matters.
Are you missing the point?
Magicka currently has 2-3/3, stamina sometimes in certain situations has 0-1/3. Are you willfully oblivious or do you actually not want stamina to ever be on par? Because those are the only two reasons I can see without insinuating things about your intelligence or competence.Youtube channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UCDQ7FrJ0AjMt2auffLEf_Pw
PS4 EU - 18 characters, all DC3 -
Nefaras✭✭✭
So you want stam to have highest aoe and single target while having good survivability.
Magicka is good for cleave and fake health, stamina is king for single target damage.OrphanHelgen wrote: »
What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?
They have all the best buffs, raided together for years, and are the best guild in the world. That dps in the video are sick, but I think their magicka dmg are on top as well. Alcast himself made the thread about how they should buff stamina, and he is also the one playing this stamina dps. I think he knows what he is talking about.
I know what it's like to have those group buffs. You also need to remember that some skills/classes scale a lot better with some of the group buffs going on which makes the damage go up even more.
Like I said, you have to tread lightly when asking for buffs to damage - I think there should be a lot of adjustments to survivability.
You're missing the point. Single Target damage isn't even all that relevant. Most PvE gameplay in this game is killing trash. Even if Mag setups sacrifice a little bit of DPS on single-target (which I have my doubts about anyway), the AoE DPS is really what matters.
Are you missing the point?
No the people here want to be equal, nothing else.
Or lower magikas ST damage the same way stamina is lacking at the moment aoe dmg (We are talking at least about 100-200% more aoe dmg magika can pull off) than you see how the stamina guys feel at the moment. If you would (full buffed) not pull out 60-70k dmg but only 30k these forums where full of magika dudes flaming and comlaining about how unbalanced the game is (even when aoe dmg where the same) but ohhhhhhhh how can the op stamina dudes want something thats the end of the world!!
When the developers want stamina better in ST the difference between stam and mag must be high enough that trial leaders (competetiv play) want to put stam dudes in their raid. But cleave and aoe are needed because of adds which have a *** ton of res. hp .
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Shadzilla✭✭✭✭✭
✭PurifedBladez wrote: »A wise man once told me they would never fix balance in eso. Every 3 or so months just be ready for the game to flop over to Magic or Stam.
Stam has been "pve meta" for 2 patches of this entire games existence...5 -
Shadzilla✭✭✭✭✭
✭jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »If stam dps is so bad, perhaps you should say it to my friend, he didn't realize it yet.
https://youtu.be/b52kDbThGFc
That's hilarious, fact is they would have received a higher score if the ONLY stam dps in the raid was actually mag. The amount of people that point out this video is just hilarious. One top score run had 1 of the 8 dps stamina, which was very inefficient. Mag has much better aoe dps along with very similar single target. Impressive on the no death end though, considering stam doesn't have a viable shield.2 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PurifedBladez wrote: »A wise man once told me they would never fix balance in eso. Every 3 or so months just be ready for the game to flop over to Magic or Stam.
Stam has been "pve meta" for 2 patches of this entire games existence...
Maybe stam should be more PvP focused and magicka PvE? -shrug-
"If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."1 -
Nefaras✭✭✭jbjondeaueb17_ESO wrote: »If stam dps is so bad, perhaps you should say it to my friend, he didn't realize it yet.
https://youtu.be/b52kDbThGFc
That's hilarious, fact is they would have received a higher score if the ONLY stam dps in the raid was actually mag. The amount of people that point out this video is just hilarious. One top score run had 1 of the 8 dps stamina, which was very inefficient. Mag has much better aoe dps along with very similar single target. Impressive on the no death end though, considering stam doesn't have a viable shield.
More hilarious is the fact that the Same guys in the vid are More than anyone say that stam needs shield and aoe xd
Sry send from mobile phone0 -
Shadzilla✭✭✭✭✭
✭
So you want stam to have highest aoe and single target while having good survivability.
Magicka is good for cleave and fake health, stamina is king for single target damage.OrphanHelgen wrote: »
What kind of thread is this, you post those videos but then you don't post this one?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.
Magika:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t
Stamina:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE
Results:
Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k
Problems:
Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.
Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.
I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.
Buffing Stamina a little bit will make it so incredibly OP, I agree they need a risk reward to using it and currently there really isn't that sort of system in play, I think the only thing Stamina needs in trials is a little bit more on the survive side.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptnvgM1RuB4
But the single target damage that stamina has is absurd. Kinda have to tread lightly with it.
This post I quoted i have to ask, is it a joke?
They have all the best buffs, raided together for years, and are the best guild in the world. That dps in the video are sick, but I think their magicka dmg are on top as well. Alcast himself made the thread about how they should buff stamina, and he is also the one playing this stamina dps. I think he knows what he is talking about.
I know what it's like to have those group buffs. You also need to remember that some skills/classes scale a lot better with some of the group buffs going on which makes the damage go up even more.
Like I said, you have to tread lightly when asking for buffs to damage - I think there should be a lot of adjustments to survivability.
You're missing the point. Single Target damage isn't even all that relevant. Most PvE gameplay in this game is killing trash. Even if Mag setups sacrifice a little bit of DPS on single-target (which I have my doubts about anyway), the AoE DPS is really what matters.
Are you missing the point?
Nifty we know the single target isn't an issue. Its the aoe and survivability that are both sooooo far below magicka... It's not like there are only 2-3 stamina dps every score run... Stamina dps are not around at all anymore. The 2 main reasons are lack of aoe and survivability. I mean honestly u guys run 8 mag dps in ur mol hardmodes don't u?Edited by Shadzilla on January 27, 2017 9:00AM3 -
SirSocke✭✭✭ZOS has a big problem, i think.
People here say: stam for ST and mag for AOE.
Great, first I thought. But that only works in PvE, because in PvP every class wants to be on par with ST.
So if ZOS buffs stam ST the mag fraction of PvP will complain about no chances to win duels.
So it's not possible for ZOS to buff stam ST.
But what about more AOE and survivability for stam?
As said before: Some classes would be OP or immortal.
I dont't think, that stam will get some love this patch, because so much has to be reworked to get a real balance.Bosmer stamina nightblade!0 -
Nefaras✭✭✭ZOS has a big problem, i think.
People here say: stam for ST and mag for AOE.
Great, first I thought. But that only works in PvE, because in PvP every class wants to be on par with ST.
So if ZOS buffs stam ST the mag fraction of PvP will complain about no chances to win duels.
So it's not possible for ZOS to buff stam ST.
But what about more AOE and survivability for stam?
As said before: Some classes would be OP or immortal.
I dont't think, that stam will get some love this patch, because so much has to be reworked to get a real balance.
But magika does nearly the same ST damage stam does atm. So where is the point? And the other thing is we dont have ANY competetive pvp in this game. No arenas, no battlegrounds (4vs4, 8vs8 and so on) ...so the pvp guys should not wet their pants. I also like pvp in small group vs another small group. But zerging or siege is not a good pvp challenge.
Duels are also not competetiv except some privat duel tournaments.....
So they can easy buff stam ST or surv/aoe , and than adapt to new content (pvp) if they even care to release something like that. But the datamininers show that we probably get a new trial soon so pve stam needs some love or we are in elders robes again.1 -
SirSocke✭✭✭I don't get your point.
Mag and stam do the same ST damage and that is the way it should be from a PvP-view.
Melee should do more damage than ranged attacks and I'd love to see stam do more ST damage but ZOS will not buff stam ST because of complaining PvPers.
If PvP is competitive or not is something else, but I remember those mag-toons qq-ing stam is too OP because of ST with maelstrom-weapons.
And now stam ist under par and mag-users talking about it's balanced now...Bosmer stamina nightblade!1 -
Edziu✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't get your point.
Mag and stam do the same ST damage and that is the way it should be from a PvP-view.
Melee should do more damage than ranged attacks and I'd love to see stam do more ST damage but ZOS will not buff stam ST because of complaining PvPers.
If PvP is competitive or not is something else, but I remember those mag-toons qq-ing stam is too OP because of ST with maelstrom-weapons.
And now stam ist under par and mag-users talking about it's balanced now...as I remember stamina has days in 1.6 patch while in bow was the best dps, then nerf and again in other patch stamina was raised with maelstrom duals buff to 3k additional weapon damage into DoTs and again nerf, so stamina was good on pve only by those 2 patches (6 months) over those 2.5 years, in rest time magica was nonstop superior
stamina was finally able to do this good scores in endgame and then very bigg QQ from magica players becaue they got flat usable in pve with stmina players, it cant be!! how for sake stam can be better than magica!!! nerf it damn wee need to be pve gods, stamina peasants! - this is how I see this PVE "balance" by players
magica is op in pve since game release, is some qq but not that very big, stamina finally getting raise to equal to magica and now magica big QQ how dare they to be equal with magica!!?!? it cant be!! and ofc in next patch stmaina nerf/magica buff and again, stamina underpowered in pve for next year after only 1 patch dominating3 -
Nefaras✭✭✭I don't get your point.
Mag and stam do the same ST damage and that is the way it should be from a PvP-view.
Melee should do more damage than ranged attacks and I'd love to see stam do more ST damage but ZOS will not buff stam ST because of complaining PvPers.
If PvP is competitive or not is something else, but I remember those mag-toons qq-ing stam is too OP because of ST with maelstrom-weapons.
And now stam ist under par and mag-users talking about it's balanced now...
My opinion is buff stam ST ( a lot) over magika or buff stam aoe that its equal/near to magika and add stam shield. Both versions would work.
The first give raidlead the choice if they need more ST but weaker def stam guys or magika aoe/survivability
My pvp point was that the magika dudes complaining (Q-Q) doesnt even matter, cause cyrodiil open pvp can`t be balanced.
Edited by Nefaras on January 27, 2017 1:29PM0 -
Kas✭✭✭✭✭few things to remark:
1) impact of horn
since magicka classes already have a substantial percentage based increase to their pool, adding another 30% on top (additively) does not as much as for stamina (who have as much raw stam as mag builds but less % from magelight and in case of sorcs also bound armor). Thus getting raid buffs helps them a little more.
2) magsorcs, magdk's and mag templars all provide group-relevant buffs (crit, fire dam, spellpower) and also have them in the fights seen here (but only theirs). stamplars also provide minor fracture btu others will benefit in raid settings.
3) the execute potential is different. e.g. a mag dk gains nothing, sorcs gain relatively little. Stam classes gain quite a bit through psn injection, etc. Thus, they benefit form mag dks in their group that help them make the first 60% of the fight a bit quicker.
4) using shooting star gains extra damage, even for single target, because of the larger uptime, in fights with adds
etc etc
tl;dr:
target dummy comparisons mean relatively little compared to actual raid-condidtions.Edited by Kas on January 27, 2017 1:50PM@bbu - AD/EU
Kasiia - Templar (AR46)
Kasiir Aberion - Sorc (AR38)
Dr Kastafari - Warden (~AR31)
+ many others1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Again, not saying that stamina doesn't have obvious draw backs in end game trials. I have run VMOL on both stam and magic on DK and Sorc. I get the difference. Here is the issue, we are acting like stamina is in this terrible place, and it's simply not. Best VMA scores? Stamina. Best VDSA Scores, 2 stamina DPS. Who sustains better? Stamina. Who is the strongest in PVE? More debatable, but I am confident saying stamina, pretty much across the board. Again, if you gave stamina the survival tools of magic (a huge f'ing shield), stam characters would be invincible in cyrodiil. What they didnt dodge or block, would hit their shield. There is a reason they reverted the buff to bone shield before it went live.
Stamina suffers in end game trials as stated for two reasons, less AOE (althought I dont think its the gap that people claim) and survivability. The latter is the reason you have not seen these in VMOL HM progressions. They are still perfectly fine in the other two trials.
However, as it typical, the best guilds are moving from the progression phase to the nuke phase (i.e. mechanic skipping phase). As more and more guilds do this, you will start to see more stam in trials I think, which is evident by the recent Alcast video.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 27, 2017 4:58PM3 -
Zarrakon✭✭✭Someone else pointed out that you didn't have Major Fracture for your stamina parses. Also, I didn't see this in your video, but it would be (very) nice to know what the up-time on minor vulnerability from the sorcerer was (because, in a trial, stam dps and other magicka dps will also benefit from this). From some tests on the PTS that I did (with a different build), I'd expect this to be at least 30-40%.0
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I remember when @Alcast was just another member, now he (gasp!) has seemed to over take Fengrush in popularity and citations!
Anyway...
Omg not magicka being better at something!0 -
Akimbro✭✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Written by someone who doesn't know sorc whatsoever. The parse was achieved by using a pet. Try running a pet in endgame content. You'll get laughed out because they don't survive and take raid buffs. Without the pet (~5k dps), this brings them inline with the other mag classes...ALACRITY Emperors united RIP
LAST PRODIGIES World first SO clear RIP
The last egg in the carton.2 -
Nefaras✭✭✭@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel
The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.
Written by someone who doesn't know sorc whatsoever. The parse was achieved by using a pet. Try running a pet in endgame content. You'll get laughed out because they don't survive and take raid buffs. Without the pet (~5k dps), this brings them inline with the other mag classes...
Hmm pretty sure alcast said in his vid that it doesnt matter if you run a pet build or not, magika sorc would be ahead. But these parses are not a good source. We need to wait for the live version and the first trial runs.
Are you guys knowing what i should run with my stam dk after the nerf to mundus, atm i have TBS for obvious reasons.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »I remember when @Alcast was just another member, now he (gasp!) has seemed to over take Fengrush in popularity and citations!
Anyway...
Omg not magicka being better at something!
Since when has fengrush talked about any class other than stam sorc? haha. Dont get me wrong, he is a beast on it, but alcast has basically been putting out videos on all classes and breaking PVE DPS records for a while now.2 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭Horowonnoe wrote: »PurifedBladez wrote: »A wise man once told me they would never fix balance in eso. Every 3 or so months just be ready for the game to flop over to Magic or Stam.
This is why one makes a toon of every kind. When one is nerfed, switch to playing another that is buffed or has an OP broken skill. Nerfed again? No prob, find which is the next op class/mag/stam combo
I highly agree with this. The days of having one character in MMORPGs are long gone. Because the Dev teams in MMO rotate FoTM for more income. One simply does not have one character unless he or she is a super casual.0 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Horowonnoe wrote: »PurifedBladez wrote: »A wise man once told me they would never fix balance in eso. Every 3 or so months just be ready for the game to flop over to Magic or Stam.
This is why one makes a toon of every kind. When one is nerfed, switch to playing another that is buffed or has an OP broken skill. Nerfed again? No prob, find which is the next op class/mag/stam combo
I highly agree with this. The days of having one character in MMORPGs are long gone. Because the Dev teams in MMO rotate FoTM for more income. One simply does not have one character unless he or she is a super casual.
Your signature says it all lol.
They do seem to rotate FoTM, but it's worse for some than others. Looking back since beta, some classes have been a roller coaster of balance. DKs pre-1.6 were gods in PvP and PvE, and then just got gutted with nothing to be done since. Templars and NBs had a rough start but gradually got constantly buffed until the point of viability. Mag Sorcs are the real exception though, as they have basically been 1st or 2nd tier in every aspect of the game since launch.
I guess it's to be expected though. I've never seen an MMO where the standard "mage" class wasn't super meta.Edited by Stamden on January 27, 2017 11:30PMPC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~2 -
Shadzilla✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stamina in pve has been meta for 2 patches of this entire games existence. Magicka in pve has been meta for 2.5 years. Nerf stam more plz. End of story.2 -
Kas✭✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Horowonnoe wrote: »PurifedBladez wrote: »A wise man once told me they would never fix balance in eso. Every 3 or so months just be ready for the game to flop over to Magic or Stam.
This is why one makes a toon of every kind. When one is nerfed, switch to playing another that is buffed or has an OP broken skill. Nerfed again? No prob, find which is the next op class/mag/stam combo
I highly agree with this. The days of having one character in MMORPGs are long gone. Because the Dev teams in MMO rotate FoTM for more income. One simply does not have one character unless he or she is a super casual.
Your signature says it all lol.
They do seem to rotate FoTM, but it's worse for some than others. Looking back since beta, some classes have been a roller coaster of balance. DKs pre-1.6 were gods in PvP and PvE, and then just got gutted with nothing to be done since. Templars and NBs had a rough start but gradually got constantly buffed until the point of viability. Mag Sorcs are the real exception though, as they have basically been 1st or 2nd tier in every aspect of the game since launch.
I guess it's to be expected though. I've never seen an MMO where the standard "mage" class wasn't super meta.
You're certainly leaving out PvE Sorcs in pre overload spam in 1.6
The incredible crit surge might have been helpful and the ult cost reduction made soc vamps pretty crazy in early pvp (later 1.5 negate mechanics were also super strong), but you basically only had sorcs in your PvE groups because those players were real beasts and often very versatile (to the point of even slotting springs when needed). Damage was a joke compared to DKs. This only got improved once they'd plow through zombies before every trial run and pump 1000overload into manti only to stack ult to pump it into the serpent afterwards.
Once overload got nerfed, sorcs went to "meh tier" once again, only to be buffed significantly by illambris and the increased need for range DDs (over meeles stacking) in vMOL.
Sure, solo PvE always was great for sorcs, mostly due to surge (always, especially pre 1.6) and hardened ward (since 1.6)Edited by Kas on January 28, 2017 1:41PM@bbu - AD/EU
Kasiia - Templar (AR46)
Kasiir Aberion - Sorc (AR38)
Dr Kastafari - Warden (~AR31)
+ many others0