Suggestion: Make Everything Craftable

AegisWolf
AegisWolf
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As the title says, ZOS should make every armor set, except for Undaunted (monster) helm and shoulder sets, craftable. Make use of the fact that there are three of each workshop, currently, and multiple sets could be combined into the same workshop. Rewards for high-end PvP and Trials should be gold tempers. This would revitalize crafting, reduce the grind, and open up some significant set options, allowing different sets in different armor types and styles.
Edited by AegisWolf on January 21, 2017 2:41PM
  • schip
    schip
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    Everything? Even monster sets?
    stam scrub
  • AegisWolf
    AegisWolf
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    schip wrote: »
    Everything? Even monster sets?

    I did say "except for Undaunted helm and shoulder sets" :D
  • AegisWolf
    AegisWolf
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    Accidental double post.
    Edited by AegisWolf on January 21, 2017 2:43PM
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Sounds like you had bad luck with the RNG. I say no. What would be the purpose of doing content if everything was craftable??
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  • schip
    schip
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    AegisWolf wrote: »
    I did say "except for Undaunted helm and shoulder sets" :D
    lol my fault
    stam scrub
  • AegisWolf
    AegisWolf
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    Sounds like you had bad luck with the RNG. I say no. What would be the purpose of doing content if everything was craftable??

    ...because it's fun? Because I'm having fun with other people? Just because one does not want to be required to undertake the same dungeon several dozen times to get the perfect item doesn't mean one does not enjoy the dungeon, nor that they would not want to do it again. I haven't had bad luck with the RNG, I simply disapprove of it as a device for the dispensation of items, to the detriment of crafting, besides, in playing for tempers, the reward is still there, it simply requires a crafter in the loop.
    Edited by AegisWolf on January 22, 2017 1:24PM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    Unfortunately, like it or not, "unique reward" for repeating certain content is ingrained in the genetics of the game and not unique to eso.

    Killing that driver will have massive impact. Not nec good.

    The key imo to helping crafting for equip is to give it its own unique niche. Not talking just different sets.

    Right now the only uniques thing about crafting is motif control. Drop sets are fixed motif.

    Crafting has convenience/speed (in traits and pieces) and has more control over weight but those are not unique when compared to crafted.

    Imo giving crafted the ability to craft their sets removing one or two of the bonuses, creating wpn/body sets of "full" 3pc or 4pc style would be great, createca lot of new possibly improved versions of old sets and give crafting new unique capabilities to add to builds.
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  • AegisWolf
    AegisWolf
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    STEVIL wrote: »
    Unfortunately, like it or not, "unique reward" for repeating certain content is ingrained in the genetics of the game and not unique to eso.

    Killing that driver will have massive impact. Not nec good.

    The key imo to helping crafting for equip is to give it its own unique niche. Not talking just different sets.

    Right now the only uniques thing about crafting is motif control. Drop sets are fixed motif.

    Crafting has convenience/speed (in traits and pieces) and has more control over weight but those are not unique when compared to crafted.

    Imo giving crafted the ability to craft their sets removing one or two of the bonuses, creating wpn/body sets of "full" 3pc or 4pc style would be great, createca lot of new possibly improved versions of old sets and give crafting new unique capabilities to add to builds.

    Ingrained in the genetics of the game? Just like different areas in the game world having different levels associated with them? This would be a similar sort of sweeping change as those instituted in One Tamriel.

    Unique niche? That's moving in the wrong direction. Instead of simply making crafting a valid part of the game, you'd be creating another divergence to be balanced.
    Edited by AegisWolf on January 21, 2017 7:17PM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    AegisWolf wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Unfortunately, like it or not, "unique reward" for repeating certain content is ingrained in the genetics of the game and not unique to eso.

    Killing that driver will have massive impact. Not nec good.

    The key imo to helping crafting for equip is to give it its own unique niche. Not talking just different sets.

    Right now the only uniques thing about crafting is motif control. Drop sets are fixed motif.

    Crafting has convenience/speed (in traits and pieces) and has more control over weight but those are not unique when compared to crafted.

    Imo giving crafted the ability to craft their sets removing one or two of the bonuses, creating wpn/body sets of "full" 3pc or 4pc style would be great, createca lot of new possibly improved versions of old sets and give crafting new unique capabilities to add to builds.

    Ingrained in the genetics of the game? Just like different areas in the game world having different levels associated with them? This would be a similar sort of sweeping change as those instituted in One Tamriel.

    Unique niche? That's moving in the wrong direction. Instead of simply making crafting a valid part of the game, you'd be creating another divergence to be balanced.

    First bold - no not like that at all. the geo-political nodes were an idea that worked great for the whole game when it was released and served the basic model and paradigm fairly well. Average players running the breadcrumb trail content thru would keep stepping up to new gear tiers/levels at about the same time they moved to zones where the drops sets and mats also advanced to that level. in truth it was JUST LIKE 1T for most players in that "where you were" your "drops and mats found" were in sync with your needs.

    Exception from the beginning was if you strayed from the path too much it got askew and served worse.

    Unfortunately that askew thing got worse as the game advanced and the straightjacket to the breadcrumb trail became more and more easily slipped off by average, casual players. By the time they did away with vet levels and the leapfrog for alts meant the formerly vet-1 to vet-8 mats might be skipped entirely, that whole geo-political nodes thing was no longer serving the needs well at all for most of the players, esp the casual average. it did however create a good market for dedicated crafters willing to help out those caught in the "i am cp 90 now but my zone drops cp 30 or maybe that was vet levels somewhere between the vet thing and 1T.

    The 1T change for nodes and such simply put back in the original core "result" - where you are you get what you need - and there was much rejoicing.

    But while i myself do not see it as a thing that drives me - across not the game but the player base the idea that "do something special get something special" is a real thing. The "grind for goodies" was not just double downed but triple or quadruple downed by Zos when 1t came out and that wasn't too long ago. The idea that they would be inclined to revamp to a whole new way of thinking and gameplay counter to that any time soon and when practically every DLC includes more "special for special" content... not the same as 1T nodes which basically "fixed" or "restored" and adapted the original model for the open world anywhere anytime 1T model.

    Scaled nodes did not produce a radical different result - it just returned the norm to what it was when landscape and quest and mats were all much less free, much more scripted.

    Second bold: i understand what you are saying but it makes no sense to me - a doesnt follow from b.

    There are plenty of cases in the game where one thing does this and another thing does that - they provide unique differences and they balance just fine.

    Jewelry right now isn't "harder to balance" because it cannot be crafted. its easier to balance given it cannot be crafted.

    there is nothing about "this has unique capabilities" that makes something not a valid part of the game.

    with alchemy, i can create potions and poisons i cannot get from the drops - is alchemy not a valid part of the game?

    with provisioning, i can create foods and drinks that i cannot get from drops - is that somehow invalid?

    With both of these, its not just orders of magnitue but combos - no drops food or drink is gonna give me anything like witchmothers brew or the vampire bloody mary or even the delicacies from wrothgar.

    My view is that if you want both crafted equipment and drop equipment to have a role in every level of the game, not just temporary convenience and cosmetics like motif - they both need unique direct impact capabilities.

    Right now, all the unique "building blocks" (2pc body monster sets, 3pc jewel/wpn sets, jewels for all drop sets, 1-2pc mael/master sets) are on the side of drops.

    ALL the unique ones are on the drop set side.

    The only shared "building block" is the 5pc set and even there, there are more drop sets than craft sets. To be sure, within each of those sets of sets there are lots of options.

    So, to me, it seems that if drops can be balanced with four-five unique building blocks all their own, seems like crafted can be balanced if it gets its own unique building blocks with 3pc and 4pc body/wpn sets.

    So it seems to me that if drops with four-five unique "building clocks" all their own can be considered a valid part of the game, then crafted equip can also be considered a valid part of the game if it got a couple unique "building block" to call its own with 3pc 4pc body/wpn sets.

    i dont want crafting equipment to become even more about supporting drop sets - unless they just want to rename them to "Alteration" skills instead of craft skills i suppose. leave crafting to the consumables where you spend most of it making stuff you cant get elsewhere - you know - making stuff unique to the skill.
    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

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  • Narvuntien
    Narvuntien
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    I am with STEVIL here.
    Balance is better than pushing the game hard the other way.
    People like different things and want to be rewarded for doing what they want to do.

    Changing styles of dropped sets would be really really nice.. it might mean perhaps dropping something like keen eyes skill point for a new one that gives you the ability to do that.

    There are some sets I would love to see craftable... like spinners and springgans... because they are just balls of stats. If I designed the game from scratch I'd have those craftable and those with effects dropped. But its a bit late for that. I think perhaps a buff in numbers for a lot of crafted sets could be enough to make them relevent.

    I feel crafted sets should just give more stats and drop sets have unique abiltiies like Procs.
  • Metafae
    Metafae
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    How about instead, every time you decon a set piece, there is a small chance that it will drop a piece of a set stone.
    Get 10 pieces to craft a whole set stone.

    You can use this set stone to let you craft one item of that set, but it costs more materials than normal, uses more tempers to upgrade its quality.
  • AegisWolf
    AegisWolf
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    STEVIL wrote: »
    AegisWolf wrote: »
    STEVIL wrote: »
    Unfortunately, like it or not, "unique reward" for repeating certain content is ingrained in the genetics of the game and not unique to eso.

    Killing that driver will have massive impact. Not nec good.

    The key imo to helping crafting for equip is to give it its own unique niche. Not talking just different sets.

    Right now the only uniques thing about crafting is motif control. Drop sets are fixed motif.

    Crafting has convenience/speed (in traits and pieces) and has more control over weight but those are not unique when compared to crafted.

    Imo giving crafted the ability to craft their sets removing one or two of the bonuses, creating wpn/body sets of "full" 3pc or 4pc style would be great, createca lot of new possibly improved versions of old sets and give crafting new unique capabilities to add to builds.

    Ingrained in the genetics of the game? Just like different areas in the game world having different levels associated with them? This would be a similar sort of sweeping change as those instituted in One Tamriel.

    Unique niche? That's moving in the wrong direction. Instead of simply making crafting a valid part of the game, you'd be creating another divergence to be balanced.

    First bold - no not like that at all. the geo-political nodes were an idea that worked great for the whole game when it was released and served the basic model and paradigm fairly well. Average players running the breadcrumb trail content thru would keep stepping up to new gear tiers/levels at about the same time they moved to zones where the drops sets and mats also advanced to that level. in truth it was JUST LIKE 1T for most players in that "where you were" your "drops and mats found" were in sync with your needs.

    Exception from the beginning was if you strayed from the path too much it got askew and served worse.

    Unfortunately that askew thing got worse as the game advanced and the straightjacket to the breadcrumb trail became more and more easily slipped off by average, casual players. By the time they did away with vet levels and the leapfrog for alts meant the formerly vet-1 to vet-8 mats might be skipped entirely, that whole geo-political nodes thing was no longer serving the needs well at all for most of the players, esp the casual average. it did however create a good market for dedicated crafters willing to help out those caught in the "i am cp 90 now but my zone drops cp 30 or maybe that was vet levels somewhere between the vet thing and 1T.

    The 1T change for nodes and such simply put back in the original core "result" - where you are you get what you need - and there was much rejoicing.

    But while i myself do not see it as a thing that drives me - across not the game but the player base the idea that "do something special get something special" is a real thing. The "grind for goodies" was not just double downed but triple or quadruple downed by Zos when 1t came out and that wasn't too long ago. The idea that they would be inclined to revamp to a whole new way of thinking and gameplay counter to that any time soon and when practically every DLC includes more "special for special" content... not the same as 1T nodes which basically "fixed" or "restored" and adapted the original model for the open world anywhere anytime 1T model.

    Scaled nodes did not produce a radical different result - it just returned the norm to what it was when landscape and quest and mats were all much less free, much more scripted.

    Second bold: i understand what you are saying but it makes no sense to me - a doesnt follow from b.

    There are plenty of cases in the game where one thing does this and another thing does that - they provide unique differences and they balance just fine.

    Jewelry right now isn't "harder to balance" because it cannot be crafted. its easier to balance given it cannot be crafted.

    there is nothing about "this has unique capabilities" that makes something not a valid part of the game.

    with alchemy, i can create potions and poisons i cannot get from the drops - is alchemy not a valid part of the game?

    with provisioning, i can create foods and drinks that i cannot get from drops - is that somehow invalid?

    With both of these, its not just orders of magnitue but combos - no drops food or drink is gonna give me anything like witchmothers brew or the vampire bloody mary or even the delicacies from wrothgar.

    My view is that if you want both crafted equipment and drop equipment to have a role in every level of the game, not just temporary convenience and cosmetics like motif - they both need unique direct impact capabilities.

    Right now, all the unique "building blocks" (2pc body monster sets, 3pc jewel/wpn sets, jewels for all drop sets, 1-2pc mael/master sets) are on the side of drops.

    ALL the unique ones are on the drop set side.

    The only shared "building block" is the 5pc set and even there, there are more drop sets than craft sets. To be sure, within each of those sets of sets there are lots of options.

    So, to me, it seems that if drops can be balanced with four-five unique building blocks all their own, seems like crafted can be balanced if it gets its own unique building blocks with 3pc and 4pc body/wpn sets.

    So it seems to me that if drops with four-five unique "building clocks" all their own can be considered a valid part of the game, then crafted equip can also be considered a valid part of the game if it got a couple unique "building block" to call its own with 3pc 4pc body/wpn sets.

    i dont want crafting equipment to become even more about supporting drop sets - unless they just want to rename them to "Alteration" skills instead of craft skills i suppose. leave crafting to the consumables where you spend most of it making stuff you cant get elsewhere - you know - making stuff unique to the skill.

    My point with the first section is that ZOS is certainly capable of making sweeping changes to the benefit of the playerbase. While it's true they have moved in the opposite direction of my proposal in the past, I do not think that would be a problem if they earnestly considered this.

    As for the second point, "jewelry right now isn't 'harder to balance' because it cannot be crafted". There is absolutely nothing that would be different about the jewelry balance if they were to make it craftable and improvable tomorrow. Availability cannot be a factor in balance. It can be used as a game feature, but not a balance function. An item cannot be unbalanced to the point it would be game-breaking were it in general circulation simply because it is only available to the elites who are able to obtain it. Fortunately, that is not, I think, the way ZOS balances.

    The only balance issues I foresee arising as a result of making every set craftable are those related to sets being made on previously unavailable armor types. For example, the Rattlecage set (+Spell Damage, +Spell Damage, +Health, +Major Sorcery and Spell Damage) may be overkill when placed on light armor, though I have my doubts given the presence of the Julianos set (+Spell Crit, +Max Magicka, +Spell Crit, +Spell Damage) as a craftable set, and the inherent drawback of already having a battlefield buff as a permanent fixture.

    Having a "unique building block", certainly by no means invalidates parts of the game. In the area of consumables, all the "unique building blocks" are held by crafters. By your analysis, I am simply arguing to give nearly all (again, with the exception of monster sets) of the "unique building blocks" from the drops to the crafters as well. By all means, armor should still drop in the dungeons, special set pieces, but the main rewards should be crafting materials, either alone, or deconstructed from said armor drops.

    Another simple idea to reward the player for dungeons, aside from the crafting materials, and the fun of successfully cooperating with other people, is to place the drop sets currently associated with dungeons behind the gate of having completed said dungeon for the crafter. For example, only a crafter who has completed veteran Maw of Lorkhaj should be able to craft Moondancer, Roar of Alkosh, Lunar Bastion, and Twilight Remedy.

    I am not opposed to rewarding the player for completing a dungeon, I only believe that this is a relatively simple idea for getting a crafter in the loop for armor and weapons, thereby revitalizing crafting, and moderately reducing the amount of RNG in this game.
    Edited by AegisWolf on January 22, 2017 1:26PM
  • STEVIL
    STEVIL
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    TLDR Abstract:

    So, if you think drop sets aren't playing as big a role in the game now as they should, IMO, sure, come up with crafting options to change drop set motifs, change drop set traits traits, build the drop sets weights tailored to your needs etc etc etc so that getting the drop set the way you want it is easier than it is now. But remember that guy seeking drop sets did not invest any skills into "drop sets" on top of his combat skills, did not wait out incredible research times, etc.

    But if you think crafted sets aren't playing a big enough role in the game now, dont expand the drop set options but instead give more unique only-from-crafting options to crafters. And remember, that crafter spent 20ish skills and a ton of time on research/motifs to get where they are - on top of their combat skills.



    @AegisWolf
    "Having a "unique building block", certainly by no means invalidates parts of the game. In the area of consumables, all the "unique building blocks" are held by crafters. By your analysis, I am simply arguing to give nearly all (again, with the exception of monster sets) of the "unique building blocks" from the drops to the crafters as well. By all means, armor should still drop in the dungeons, special set pieces, but the main rewards should be crafting materials, either alone, or deconstructed from said armor drops."

    Ok so to be clear, at the point you give nearly all of the currently unique to drops sets to the craftersm they all stop being unique and you have not - i repeat - not helped crafters have any sort of unique niche.

    ok - right now folks farm and find pieces from drops and then, most of the time, take them to crafters to get them upticked. The exceptions would be the folks managing to farm all gold materials or all purple materials (but frankly, my experience says most folks farm the blue and green gear and craft it up), is the jewelry (which cannot be upticked) and the BOP stuff (which they have to use their own crafter stuff to uptick.)

    So right now, crafting is knee deep in drop set support.

    Letting them also craft the drop sets doesn't do a thing for making crafters any more key to game play - though it truly smashes into new paradigm the whole BOP BOE gear for content style play motivations. So, my point is, as far as a crafter goes, what does it matter if they are "crafting" Veiled Heritance sets or "upgrading from blue to gold" Veiled Heritance sets from dungeon tokens the other guy got at the end of his delve? they still play the same role - after the hunter kills the big bad the crafter gets the gear up to snuff.

    it doesn't help the crafter to let crafters *make* drop sets in addition to fixing them up - it helps the drop-set hunter.

    If at the end of Auridon Quest i get a token to let someone craft an Elegance item, that is helping the elegance set hunter, not the crafter in most cases.
    Drop set hunter/gatherers dont need to be helped to make crafting somehow better, crafted sets wearers need to be helped to make crafting better.


    So, giving the crafter something that the drop set hunters cannot get without the crafter, something they cannot farm etc - thats a different story.

    3pc and 4pc body/wpn sets create opportunities for different build structures than we have now and some would find ways to use them and that would mean "go to crafters" or "craft them myself" and they would play a distinct role.

    if you want a "balance" between crafted sets and farmed sets you need to have them each provide different unique options, not just be different ways to get the same stuff if you happened to sink tons of skills into it.







    Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
    YFMV Your Fun May Vary.

    First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
    "The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."

  • EldritchPenguin
    EldritchPenguin
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    STEVIL wrote: »
    Imo giving crafted the ability to craft their sets removing one or two of the bonuses, creating wpn/body sets of "full" 3pc or 4pc style would be great, createca lot of new possibly improved versions of old sets and give crafting new unique capabilities to add to builds.
    Why does it just have to be 3 or 4 pieces? I'd personally love love love to have a 7 piece set. We could even get updates on old, outdated sets to add 6 and 7 piece set bonuses. They would likely have to be comparable to monster sets without being outright better, of course. Or, alternatively, the 6 and 7 bonuses could possibly be better than monster sets (in most cases) to offset the 2-5 bonuses being relatively inferior to dropped sets in the current meta. Imagine Pelial's Aptitude with an extra stat boost for a 6 piece, and a 7 piece that gave you 300-500 Spell Damage for casting a Stamina ability, and vice versa, as an example. Or Ashen Grip with a 7 piece that gives you a chunk of Weapon Damage and/or Weapon Critical for every enemy hit with the fire breath.

    Of course, I'm just tossing out a couple of off-the-cuff ideas, but 7 piece sets could really shake up the meta. It's a little bland seeing every single tank and DPS wearing a monster set, especially because all of them pretty much universally use the sole best monster set for their role.
    Edited by EldritchPenguin on January 26, 2017 9:58PM
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  • helediron
    helediron
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    STEVIL wrote: »
    ...snip...
    if you want a "balance" between crafted sets and farmed sets you need to have them each provide different unique options, not just be different ways to get the same stuff if you happened to sink tons of skills into it.
    Very much agree with this. Making crafting and looting different and complementing each other is a good direction.
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