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Do you think ZOS should eliminate animation cancelling?
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Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Very serious.
1 skill + light attck/block/bash weaving
VS
1 skill + spamming it while waiting out the animation.
Is a lot more than a 10% damage difference.
Don't forget about DoTs running while you're doing so...if you don't run any DoTs LA + bash can surely exceed those 10%. But usually it's around that or even less.Noobplar0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Very serious.
1 skill + light attck/block/bash weaving
VS
1 skill + spamming it while waiting out the animation.
Is a lot more than a 10% damage difference.
Thing is, there are tons of other factors at play. Like experience, gear, group synergy, etc.
This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
DurzoBlint13✭✭✭✭I would be happy if they just got rid of the ridiculous Emote-cancel BS happening right now. I see a lot of comments about a "cool down" but this glitch completely bypasses that. You can stack 5-6 skills up and they all fire at the same time. Maybe it is not a problem on PC but it happens a lot on PS4. Especially the 5 or 6 EP players that use it religiously.
other than that, we all have to accept that AC is here to stay. ZOS has openly said they did not intend it but they will not be removing it either. Deal with it or find another game
Now can we please put Animation Canceling in the same category as Politics and Religion (and Class Balance for that matter) and not speak about them in public? These debates are pointless and unconstructive1 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Very serious.
1 skill + light attck/block/bash weaving
VS
1 skill + spamming it while waiting out the animation.
Is a lot more than a 10% damage difference.
No it's not on a proper DPS PvE setup that does more than just using the spammable. So stop spreading the bs idea that animation canceling increases your dps by such massive amounts. It doesn't.
Susano'o
Zerg Squad2 -
Emencie✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itdramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Very serious.
1 skill + light attck/block/bash weaving
VS
1 skill + spamming it while waiting out the animation.
Is a lot more than a 10% damage difference.
No it's not on a proper DPS PvE setup that does more than just using the spammable. So stop spreading the bs idea that animation canceling increases your dps by such massive amounts. It doesn't.
That isn't what I said at all...
Jesus christ, reading comprehension.3 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No let it staySimply put, animation canceling is what separates skilled and unskilled players. It adds a layer of skill to end game, that even if not originally intended, is one of the things that truly makes the combat in this game awesome.
Do I think that there are perhaps some burst combos (especially when done with a macro) that perhaps need looked at? Sure I do. But the idea of removing any type of animation canceling from game would break combat, and furthermore, its NEVER going to happen.
Whining about AC kinda makes you look like scrub. Just sayin...
Edit: Also not surprised that "the scrubs have it" by looking at poll results.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 24, 2017 9:05PM2 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itDurzoBlint13 wrote: »I would be happy if they just got rid of the ridiculous Emote-cancel BS happening right now. I see a lot of comments about a "cool down" but this glitch completely bypasses that. You can stack 5-6 skills up and they all fire at the same time. Maybe it is not a problem on PC but it happens a lot on PS4. Especially the 5 or 6 EP players that use it religiously.
other than that, we all have to accept that AC is here to stay. ZOS has openly said they did not intend it but they will not be removing it either. Deal with it or find another game
Now can we please put Animation Canceling in the same category as Politics and Religion (and Class Balance for that matter) and not speak about them in public? These debates are pointless and unconstructive
Emote cancel? I've seen the dreaded "macroslice" that happens with 2h crit rush and that appeared to be from lag.0 -
PurifedBladez✭✭✭✭✭No let it stayYou guys that don't like animation cancelling need to go play hearthstone or something2
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Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Very serious.
1 skill + light attck/block/bash weaving
VS
1 skill + spamming it while waiting out the animation.
Is a lot more than a 10% damage difference.
@Emencie
This is simply a false statement. Animation canceling, especially the type i think you are describing, does not decrease the global cooldown of skills. If we are talking about a basic light weave, the number one type of animation canceling done in this game, well it usually adds about 5-6 percent Damage.
Looking at a 50k parse on the PTS (not mine), light attacks accounted for about 2800 DPS (5.6 percent). That is with a near perfect weave. Most people are going to be less than that. All the weaving in the world is not going to allow you to get off more skills. Skills have global cooldowns.
Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on January 24, 2017 9:33PM5 -
Emencie✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itOreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »dramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Very serious.
1 skill + light attck/block/bash weaving
VS
1 skill + spamming it while waiting out the animation.
Is a lot more than a 10% damage difference.
@Emencie
This is simply a false statement. Animation canceling, especially the type i think you are describing, does not decrease the global cooldown of skills. If we are talking about a basic light weave, the number one type of animation canceling done in this game, well it usually adds about 5-6 percent Damage.
Looking at a 50k parse on the PTS (not mine), light attacks accounted for about 2800 DPS (5.6 percent). That is with a near perfect weave. Most people are going to be less than that. All the weaving in the world is not going to allow you to get off more skills. Skills have global cooldowns.
I'll try to reiterate what I meant.
In WoW "Skill A" deals 500 damage, it has a global cool down of 2 seconds, and while using it the player auto attacks once a second for 100 damage.
A pro player pushes the "Skill A" button once every 2 seconds while auto attacking, giving them 350 DPS.
A noob player spams the "Skill A" button like a maniac, it still only goes off every 2 seconds while auto attacking, giving them 350 DPS.
A bot/macro player has a script to push the "Skill A" button every 2 seconds while auto attacking, giving them 350 DPS.
A person with bad lag still sees the fight client side and pushes the "Skill A" button every 2 seconds, when the server gets the info guess what? He gets 350 DPS.
In GW2 "Skill A" deals 500 damage, it has a normalized animation of 2 seconds there is no auto attack.
A pro player pushes the "Skill A" button every 2 seconds giving them 250 DPS.
A noob player spams the "Skill A" button but it only goes after the last animation completed, giving them 250 DPS.
A bot/macro player has a script to push the "Skill A" button every 2 seconds, again 250 DPS.
In ESO "Skill A" deals 500 damage, it can be ACed and weaved it has an animation of 1.5 seconds and a global cool down of .9 seconds. Light attacks deal 100 damage and can be weaved in, bashes can be used to cancel animation for 50 damage
A Pro player can weave a light attack in between every "Skill A" button press and ends it with a bash canceling the animation down to 1 second, giving them 650 DPS
A noob player hits the "Skill A" button every time the animation ends with no weaving and no AC giving them 333 DPS
A person learning AC may weave a light attack in every other "Skill A" button press, but miff a block cancel or two and put their DPS somewhere between 333 and 650.
A perfect macro system will get the AC down to .9 seconds every "Skill A" use, while weaving the light attacks and bashes giving the bot 715 DPS
I brought this up because I feel this is the biggest problem with weaving and AC. My numbers are made up (obviously) but I was just trying to show that weaving/AC has quite an impact on simply how we view/balance skills because it's not, and never can be normalized. This is a problem fairly unique to ESO because most games normalize skills.
I'm not talking about how much epic damage you get out of AC. I'm talking about on the basic level of "When a character is just using a single skill how much damage does that character do." AC can make that number vary, where most games that number would be consistent across skill lines. This basic idea is seen in game whenever you group with a person that has no idea what AC is and you look at their terrible DPS parse like
then promptly kick them. We have situations where people are doing content designed for a group, solo. PvP where people are 1v20 and other insane feats that are simply not seen in other MMORPGs.
Because the difference in ESO between a vet player and a noob is so astronomical not only because of build quality, but also unexplained gameplay mechanics, the biggest of which is AC.
This is why I don't like it. But I understand why it's here to stay, and of course I use it.
I don't know how much clearer I can explain this.3 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
This is what I don't think people understand. ZOS has embraced AC. They wanted to create fluid combat so you aren't locked into animations. When people started weaving and such they accepted it as a gameplay element. They might not have intended it, but I honestly don't they would fix it even if they could. They have built many gameplay elements around it like what you just mentioned. AC is an accepted part of the game. It might not have been intended for this use originally, but it is now.
If they've embraced it,it should be in the tutorial along with standing in stupid.
Mojmir Its been so long since ive done the tutorial. What does it teach again?
How to heal?
How to tank?
What to keep track of if your dps keeps dying in red so you can compensate?
Threat management and prioritization? (Keep that 2h off your squishies)
How abilities scale with resources?
How sets work (ie another piece for each tier of the sets bonus. I remember that being asked quite a bit.)
How to balance your stats effectively?
Using damage over time abilities along side high single damage abilities?
How a gear set can drasically change the effectiveness of your intended build?
The benifit and efectiveness of penetration, crit, and strait damage and how to balance them to be effective? And their coresponding resistances as well?
Regeneration vs reduction?
Are those covered?
Click skill then click light attack.
I mean really does that need a tutorial, everything should have a tutorial ultimately but light attack canceling is much easier than most people here realize, and doesn't require amazing reaction time.
Yea, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a tutorial, just pointing out other key mechanics without them. There certainly should be easy to access in-game resources that help explain this stuff. All this stuff.
This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Other (Please explain)If they are going to keep it, refine it.
If they are going to remove it, alter abilities and rotations to make up for the loss in damage and reward smarter rotations.
It is not that hard.3 -
Iskrasfemme✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itFrom here we will have people defending the exploits ... later, the cheaters ... and so on.0
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Riejael✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Animation canceling can be demonstrated and explained. It's very simplw to do so. Teaching and demonstrating are very independent of ping.
The most basic and common form of animation canceling I ended up figuring out accidently right after the game launched, weaving basic attacks in front of skills. It can even be done with moderate ping.
I do agree a video would make it easier to understand and searching for information is a big dividing line between higher end of dps and the lower end. One cannot learn skill in a vacuum.
I didn't learn AC from watching other players. I did it by accident and seen vague comments about it and decided to look it up. I was familiar with AC from DC Universe Online, so I knew the implications. In fact when I do it myself, people on TS remark that it just looks like I'm spamming an ability. Even though there is light/heavy attack damage going off.
But showing new players would be impossible in the game engine. If say in the Wailing Prison they have Lyris do it. It will just look like she's doing a special attack over and over. Like I said, the only thing they can do is have her or the Prophet mention it, and maybe say to search it on youtube. How's that for immersion breaking?1 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes get rid of itYeah, I stumbled on it by being lazy actually. Was just holding down the heavy attack button while going through skill rotation and noticed stam regen was better, then just started the light attack-skill-light attack- skill- bar swap etc. thingy.
But I have played with my brothers toon (mag nightblade) and its waaaay harder on his than on mine (stam sorc) so I'd have to say that due to the difference in AC based on class and skill lineup it seems rather unfair.0 -
No let it stayI would love to see a video of someone completing vMA without using animation canceling. Anyone voting yes to get rid of it got a link?3
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Lylith✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes get rid of itSneaky-Snurr wrote: »do they, now?
it's odd, i've got a 15-21 ping to dallas, but with eso mine is never under 100 and in pvp it runs 150-200+ all the time.
go figure.
@Lylith
May I know which ISP and connection package 'tier' you're subscribed to? Sounds to me like you have a really, REALLY bad connection considering you're playing from within the States. My typical ping range on good days is between 240-300ms and I'm in the Oceanic region.
It's quite disturbing how close my ping range and yours are. Better get your connections checked and/or subscribe to a better ISP/package.
EDIT: Forgot to add. The ping rate you mentioned on your side sounds very similar to when I was back in the UK (goes from 140-240). That said, I'm pretty confident that you can get your ping rates below 100ms with better subscription pack from your chosen ISP.
And. Go figure.
10/200 from the only viable isp in town, unfortunately.
all my connection hardware, cables, splitters, connectors, modem, router are all less than two years old as i had some serious connection problems at one time.
i have excellent speed to everything but eso.0 -
Hammy01✭✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itIf NPC's could AC then i am sure you would see lots of threads asking for ZOS to fix it asap.2 -
Kalante✭✭✭✭✭
✭No let it stayIt is not an exploit, zos already said it's legit, stop QQ'ng, move along.1 -
Johngo0036✭✭✭✭✭Other (Please explain)I dont say get rid of them,
However i usually run in pvp with more than 300 latency,
Try to animation cancel then,
Even Alcast mentioned that on the pts he was having issues getting animation cancelling 100% correct.
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RazorCaltrops✭✭✭No let it stayhttps://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/316098/confessions-of-a-casual-mind#latest
Someone had to do this.PS4 EU0 -
Spottswoode✭✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itDoctorDarkspawn wrote:If they are going to keep it, refine it.
If they are going to remove it, alter abilities and rotations to make up for the loss in damage and reward smarter rotations.
It is not that hard.
Can I give you a medal?Edited by Spottswoode on January 25, 2017 12:31PMProud Player of The Elder Bank Screen Online.
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Lookstowindwards✭✭✭Yes get rid of itOreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »dramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Very serious.
1 skill + light attck/block/bash weaving
VS
1 skill + spamming it while waiting out the animation.
Is a lot more than a 10% damage difference.
@Emencie
This is simply a false statement. Animation canceling, especially the type i think you are describing, does not decrease the global cooldown of skills. If we are talking about a basic light weave, the number one type of animation canceling done in this game, well it usually adds about 5-6 percent Damage.
Looking at a 50k parse on the PTS (not mine), light attacks accounted for about 2800 DPS (5.6 percent). That is with a near perfect weave. Most people are going to be less than that. All the weaving in the world is not going to allow you to get off more skills. Skills have global cooldowns.
I'll try to reiterate what I meant.
In WoW "Skill A" deals 500 damage, it has a global cool down of 2 seconds, and while using it the player auto attacks once a second for 100 damage.
A pro player pushes the "Skill A" button once every 2 seconds while auto attacking, giving them 350 DPS.
A noob player spams the "Skill A" button like a maniac, it still only goes off every 2 seconds while auto attacking, giving them 350 DPS.
A bot/macro player has a script to push the "Skill A" button every 2 seconds while auto attacking, giving them 350 DPS.
A person with bad lag still sees the fight client side and pushes the "Skill A" button every 2 seconds, when the server gets the info guess what? He gets 350 DPS.
In GW2 "Skill A" deals 500 damage, it has a normalized animation of 2 seconds there is no auto attack.
A pro player pushes the "Skill A" button every 2 seconds giving them 250 DPS.
A noob player spams the "Skill A" button but it only goes after the last animation completed, giving them 250 DPS.
A bot/macro player has a script to push the "Skill A" button every 2 seconds, again 250 DPS.
In ESO "Skill A" deals 500 damage, it can be ACed and weaved it has an animation of 1.5 seconds and a global cool down of .9 seconds. Light attacks deal 100 damage and can be weaved in, bashes can be used to cancel animation for 50 damage
A Pro player can weave a light attack in between every "Skill A" button press and ends it with a bash canceling the animation down to 1 second, giving them 650 DPS
A noob player hits the "Skill A" button every time the animation ends with no weaving and no AC giving them 333 DPS
A person learning AC may weave a light attack in every other "Skill A" button press, but miff a block cancel or two and put their DPS somewhere between 333 and 650.
A perfect macro system will get the AC down to .9 seconds every "Skill A" use, while weaving the light attacks and bashes giving the bot 715 DPS
I brought this up because I feel this is the biggest problem with weaving and AC. My numbers are made up (obviously) but I was just trying to show that weaving/AC has quite an impact on simply how we view/balance skills because it's not, and never can be normalized. This is a problem fairly unique to ESO because most games normalize skills.
I'm not talking about how much epic damage you get out of AC. I'm talking about on the basic level of "When a character is just using a single skill how much damage does that character do." AC can make that number vary, where most games that number would be consistent across skill lines. This basic idea is seen in game whenever you group with a person that has no idea what AC is and you look at their terrible DPS parse like then promptly kick them. We have situations where people are doing content designed for a group, solo. PvP where people are 1v20 and other insane feats that are simply not seen in other MMORPGs.
Because the difference in ESO between a vet player and a noob is so astronomical not only because of build quality, but also unexplained gameplay mechanics, the biggest of which is AC.
This is why I don't like it. But I understand why it's here to stay, and of course I use it.
I don't know how much clearer I can explain this.
Thank you so much!
A friend of mine just came back from a three month frustration break, because he could not understand, why the difference between noobs and pros would be so great that a dungeon could one time be a walk in the park, while the other time the group could not down a boss even after many hours of trying.
I think your post illustrates the problem with AC quite well: It makes balancing even more impossible then it already is by nature in MMOs, leading to more kicks for noobs and nervous breakdowns for patient veterans trying to run a dungeon with whatever the finder gives them. In other games you would only have to explain mechanics and tactic, tell people to and when use skill a-z, and DONT STAND IN STUPID.
Here in ESO, even if the noob-group does everything of the above right, it is quite possible that they still will not down the boss, because they dont AC and so dont have the DPS for the fight.
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Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Other (Please explain)A better option would be to create an in-game macroing system (similar to what Rift has) to allow the hopelessly uncoordinated to compete on an even footing.1 -
Xerton✭✭✭✭No let it stayLookstowindwards wrote: »Thank you so much!
A friend of mine just came back from a three month frustration break, because he could not understand, why the difference between noobs and pros would be so great that a dungeon could one time be a walk in the park, while the other time the group could not down a boss even after many hours of trying.
I think your post illustrates the problem with AC quite well: It makes balancing even more impossible then it already is by nature in MMOs, leading to more kicks for noobs and nervous breakdowns for patient veterans trying to run a dungeon with whatever the finder gives them. In other games you would only have to explain mechanics and tactic, tell people to and when use skill a-z, and DONT STAND IN STUPID.
Here in ESO, even if the noob-group does everything of the above right, it is quite possible that they still will not down the boss, because they dont AC and so dont have the DPS for the fight.
So you are telling me, that when i am in a dungeon with a random DD and i pull 50k and he deals 20k it is because i use AC?
The problem starts at a completely other point and that is, that people are unable to create a damage rotation.
I currently don't have a dmg parse to support the following, but trust me, even if i would not cancel any animation and would not weave a single light attack i would still deal mor than 40k in the same situation.
The people complaining are mostly those you see in other threads whining that their 18k dps should be enough to clear every content. No it should not.
No matter which class or magicka or stamina build, you can pull 25k+ with a crafted only setup.
Just accept the fact, that ZOS intendet AC and wants people to use it.
And furthermore accept the fact, that AC is not the reason you are so far behind in DPS.
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 14, 2026 6:55PMCP 810+
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FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭Do you really believe that a competitive expansion to ESO such as Arenas could ever be possible when it's beyond obvious how many are cheating using macros?
How can you, just by interaction in game, tell if a player is using macros or not? You call it obvious and many. Detail how you deduce, for a matter of fact, that a player is using macros.
Ah, see here is the benefit of doubt mantra, can't prove it, something that macro cheaters are thriving of. I can assure you that I have well over 200 screenshots of death caps showing 5 skills within around 2 seconds according to the visible FTC log.
Next mantra is going to be skillful thumbs or other finger. Please. Every one of these skills needs a weapon swap and an instant cast then yet another weapon swap to be pulled of anywhere near that time space. Every time.
Next mantra is lag or latency. Amazingly nothing else in the vicinity of the environment I'm in during this 5 skills in 2 seconds death is lagging or suffering any latency. None of the caps of this particular nature have ever included any sort of channeled skill. They seem to bee immune to latency and lag in this regard.
Last, I know people who have admitted to using Razer macros after being confronted with what I have on screenshot. If nothing else, these would invalidate any kind of competitions such as Arenas, as long as macros are or even can be present in game. Cancelling skills with animation at least lowers the chances of cheaters competing in a competitive game.
I would have guessed most players would find that a welcoming thought.
Not if ZOS officially lifts it's ToS violation of macros. If macros was officially legal to all players then we can still have a decent competition even with animation cancelling and macros.
As long multi skill macroing is a reason for ban in terms of the ToS then no, absolutely no competition could be had. Because the pirates who have bare bones accounts and don't care about getting banned will always have the unfair upper hand.1 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it stayJohngo0036 wrote: »I dont say get rid of them,
However i usually run in pvp with more than 300 latency,
Try to animation cancel then,
Even Alcast mentioned that on the pts he was having issues getting animation cancelling 100% correct.
Ninja San was or still is one of the best players NA, and he played every time with high ping 200-300+. He was still able to animation cancel better than most NA players, and he dominated 1v1s. High ping isn't an excuse for not being able to animation cancel, if high ping is causing you problems it will continue to do so even without animation canceling.
Most NA players play with fine ping (as fine as possible in a game like ESO), if your ping is bad that's your problem. You can't balance the game around the few people with *** ping, when most NA players are indeed NA with acceptable ping.
PTS has a ton of issues for a multitude of reasons, mostly coming down to ZOS not having a clue how to patch games.
The Age of Wrobel.1 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Other (Please explain)FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »Do you really believe that a competitive expansion to ESO such as Arenas could ever be possible when it's beyond obvious how many are cheating using macros?
How can you, just by interaction in game, tell if a player is using macros or not? You call it obvious and many. Detail how you deduce, for a matter of fact, that a player is using macros.
Ah, see here is the benefit of doubt mantra, can't prove it, something that macro cheaters are thriving of. I can assure you that I have well over 200 screenshots of death caps showing 5 skills within around 2 seconds according to the visible FTC log.
Next mantra is going to be skillful thumbs or other finger. Please. Every one of these skills needs a weapon swap and an instant cast then yet another weapon swap to be pulled of anywhere near that time space. Every time.
Next mantra is lag or latency. Amazingly nothing else in the vicinity of the environment I'm in during this 5 skills in 2 seconds death is lagging or suffering any latency. None of the caps of this particular nature have ever included any sort of channeled skill. They seem to bee immune to latency and lag in this regard.
Last, I know people who have admitted to using Razer macros after being confronted with what I have on screenshot. If nothing else, these would invalidate any kind of competitions such as Arenas, as long as macros are or even can be present in game. Cancelling skills with animation at least lowers the chances of cheaters competing in a competitive game.
I would have guessed most players would find that a welcoming thought.
Not if ZOS officially lifts it's ToS violation of macros. If macros was officially legal to all players then we can still have a decent competition even with animation cancelling and macros.
As long multi skill macroing is a reason for ban in terms of the ToS then no, absolutely no competition could be had. Because the pirates who have bare bones accounts and don't care about getting banned will always have the unfair upper hand.
Not good enough to just lift the macro ban as that would still create a separation between those with macro HW and the have nots - especially on the consoles.
Official support in game for animation-cancelling macros would be the only solution along those lines. Even add-on support for macros would not be good enough since that's just a PC/Mac thing.0 -
DurzoBlint13✭✭✭✭DurzoBlint13 wrote: »I would be happy if they just got rid of the ridiculous Emote-cancel BS happening right now. I see a lot of comments about a "cool down" but this glitch completely bypasses that. You can stack 5-6 skills up and they all fire at the same time. Maybe it is not a problem on PC but it happens a lot on PS4. Especially the 5 or 6 EP players that use it religiously.
other than that, we all have to accept that AC is here to stay. ZOS has openly said they did not intend it but they will not be removing it either. Deal with it or find another game
Now can we please put Animation Canceling in the same category as Politics and Religion (and Class Balance for that matter) and not speak about them in public? These debates are pointless and unconstructive
Emote cancel? I've seen the dreaded "macroslice" that happens with 2h crit rush and that appeared to be from lag.
on PS4 there is a way to look like you are just standing there doing an emote, but really they are stacking skills up to all fire at the same time. You see a player in the field doing jumping jacks, just turn the other way. As soon as you get in range they fire 6 Snipes at you in less than a second and yet it still looks like they are doing jumping jacks. My guildies have vids of a couple of us attacking a guy that was playing the drums, one guy dies and we can not figure out what happened. Death recap is 5 Snipes from guy that is still playing drums. Another guy goes down- same death recap. The last two of us hold block and look for hidden NBs but just this guy is still playing the drums. Since then we have all watched vids on how to counter it and how powerful it is. I do not want to know how to do it, and I certainly do not want anyone else using it that is not already. There are a handful of EP players (PS4/NA) that use this all the time. There may be DC and AD players that do it too but I have never seen them. We just avoid them now unless we have the numbers to steamroll them over. The only counter is to block, avoid them or stay stealth until it is too late for them to defend. As soon as they see anyone in range they kill them. Yes, we filled a couple tickets already about it. Has been around for a month or so, as far as I know0