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Do you think ZOS should eliminate animation cancelling?
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Jimbullbee85✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of it.Jimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: »It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.
Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.
Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.
The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.
You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?
For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.
ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.
Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.
Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?Jimbullbee, Templar healer battlemage0 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No let it stayJimbullbee85 wrote: ».Jimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: »It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.
Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.
Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.
The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.
You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?
For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.
ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.
Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.
Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?
So basically you don't even know what animation canceling is but your advocating its removal?
Great.Susano'o
Zerg Squad5 -
Jimbullbee85✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itJimbullbee85 wrote: ».Jimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: »It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.
Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.
Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.
The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.
You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?
For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.
ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.
Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.
Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?
So basically you don't even know what animation canceling is but your advocating its removal?
Great.
If that's not how it works then please enlighten me
Edited by Jimbullbee85 on January 24, 2017 4:37PMJimbullbee, Templar healer battlemage0 -
luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭They should get rid of the horrible animation system they implemented a few updates ago.
Animation cancel was ok before it, even though a system with no GCD really hurts high Ping players I like it this way.PC/DC/NAserver
V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk1 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No let it stayJimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: ».Jimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: »It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.
Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.
Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.
The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.
You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?
For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.
ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.
Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.
Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?
So basically you don't even know what animation canceling is but your advocating its removal?
Great.
If that's not how it works then please enlighten me
Too much effort to write a wall of text on what it is and how to, instead dear Alcast is going to do the explaining:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTjhXLQXpac
And just in case if he doesn't mention it: No, you don't (and can't) cancel or bypass cast times (like wrecking blow, dark flare and whatever) with animation canceling.Susano'o
Zerg Squad6 -
Jimbullbee85✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itJimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: ».Jimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: »It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.
Thats like asking if basketball players would be just as good if the NBA removed jumping from the game. Obviously not, cus you're removing a layer of skill that allows those who can utilize it to shine. It's artificially dumbing the game down to limit skillful play. But I assure you that the people against animation canceling will still get destroyed all the same. Then they'll be back crying about the next thing, ad infinitum.
Thats why you don't balance the game around the complaints of the lowest common denominator. They will always complain and try to drag everyone else and the game down to their level, ruining it in the process. But they will never accept that the problem may not be with mechanics of the game but rather their own ability to learn and develop.
The same exact reason I'm passionately opposed to socialism.
You make a fair point but I disagree. Its more like asking basketball players if they'll still be as good if they couldn't fly. It shouldn't happen. Obviously in this example it can't happen LOL. The only reason it's still there IMO is because ZOS darent fix it out of fear of breaking everything else. It's obviously an exploit. I'm not saying there's no skill behind it and I don't blame players for taking advantage of it. I just think it's uneccesarry is all. Theres more clear and obvious ways to demonstrate skill. What's the point of beating someone if they can't see how you did it?
For reference is it an exploit that players can sprint and use a skill to stop versus having to manually stop before using a skill? That's also animation canceling.
ZOS can "fix" animation canceling by reworking the game's action prioritization recognition to force animations to fully playout before other actions are sequenced. However this would require reworking combat and action interplay in the whole of the game, as reaction based blocking and dodging also would be altered. As such it is not a worry of breaking something, but rather no interest in spending massive amounts of development time to rework an otherwise functioning game.
Honestly I don't believe people advocating for AC's removal actually understand the extent and scope of what they are asking for.
Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?
So basically you don't even know what animation canceling is but your advocating its removal?
Great.
If that's not how it works then please enlighten me
Too much effort to write a wall of text on what it is and how to, instead dear Alcast is going to do the explaining:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTjhXLQXpac
And just in case if he doesn't mention it: No, you don't (and can't) cancel or bypass cast times (like wrecking blow, dark flare and whatever) with animation canceling.
Thank you my love I'll watch it later Edited by Jimbullbee85 on January 24, 2017 4:50PMJimbullbee, Templar healer battlemage0 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭Other (Please explain)luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »They should get rid of the horrible animation system they implemented a few updates ago.
Animation cancel was ok before it, even though a system with no GCD really hurts high Ping players I like it this way.
I agree on this with my whole heart! Rever5t back to what it was before that.>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No let it stayLadyLethalla wrote: »This might sound like a dumb question, but here goes...
How do I know IF I am animation cancelling? With the lag I have due to a) my distance to the EU server and b) my crappy ADSL2+ broadband connection I have no idea.
I know the 'theory' of how to weave - LA- Ability A - LA - Ability B etc. For example, when I play on my Mag Sorc I will sometimes cast Crystal Frag when I see it's ready to cast - but then when I hit the button to use it, it doesn't immediately fire, I get the whole animation instead. (Not sure if this is a bug.) As we know, there's a 2 (?) second cast time. But when I interrupt the cast animation with a light attack, I don't see any number come up for the Frag, only for the LA.
??
Everyone uses animation canceling to some degree.
Animation canceling allows you to take defensive actions before your attack animation has completed, like blocking or dodging an incoming attack before you've finished firing off your own spell.
It was intended to keep the flow of combat fast paced and action oriented. The flip side to that is, as with all games, people have figured out how to take advantage of it. So what, though, people can squeeze some extra DPS out of their rotation by pressing buttons like a squirrel on energy drinks. No biggie.
I don't think abusing animation canceling is the worse thing in the world though, and getting rid of it probably won't be worth the trade off.3 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Other (Please explain)I have a split opinion. If they are not going to remove it, they should make sure that animation cancelling is equal between classes and specs.
In addition, ZoS should add a tutorial or accessible information explaining animation cancelling if they are going to leave it in. As odd is it may sound, relatively few people that play the game understand what it is. I explain the concept to newer players on an almost weekly basis. I posted on this in the early days to no avail.0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭No let it stayJimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: »It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.
Typically players become good through a mix of natural talent and skill developed via practice. That's true with or without AC.
Try to actually counter arguments instead of thinking they are invalid based on alleged personal interest.
The point I was trying to make is that a sniper can't be an awesome sharp shooter with a shot gun. Animation cancelling allows players to do more damage over time and in my oponion some players rely on it. Without it they'll be disadvantaged. Hence the question, which is not a statement by the way or meant to be insulting to anyone.
I cringe a bit every time people who cleary knows little about firearms, try to make firearm related analogies. I get that you're most likely making reference to video game representations of firearms, but look up skeet shooting and know that it's mostly done with shotguns. Further the precision shooting skills of a sniper don't suddenly vanish when they are firing anything but a sniper rifle.
There doesn't really need to be an analogy, it's simply one way of playing vs another.5 -
Jimbullbee85✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itJimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: »It's a touchy issue for alot of players isn't it? Alot of players love animation canceling because it gives them the upper hand in combat against players who don't know how to do it or dont do it out of principle. The tough question for animation cancelers is... Would you still be as good of a player if you couldn't do it? If the general honest answer to that is no, then inevitably there will be alot of passionate arguments against removing it.
Typically players become good through a mix of natural talent and skill developed via practice. That's true with or without AC.
Try to actually counter arguments instead of thinking they are invalid based on alleged personal interest.
The point I was trying to make is that a sniper can't be an awesome sharp shooter with a shot gun. Animation cancelling allows players to do more damage over time and in my oponion some players rely on it. Without it they'll be disadvantaged. Hence the question, which is not a statement by the way or meant to be insulting to anyone.
I cringe a bit every time people who cleary knows little about firearms, try to make firearm related analogies. I get that you're most likely making reference to video game representations of firearms, but look up skeet shooting and know that it's mostly done with shotguns. Further the precision shooting skills of a sniper don't suddenly vanish when they are firing anything but a sniper rifle.
There doesn't really need to be an analogy, it's simply one way of playing vs another.
For the love of Talos!Jimbullbee, Templar healer battlemage0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No let it stayJimbullbee85 wrote: »Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?
No. Its not. Go back and read my post #547 where I explain why. While you're at it, please consult a dictionary for the definition of the word 'instant'. The reason this conversation is frustrating for people who support animation cancelling is precisely because the vast majority of the opposition doesn't even understand the concept well enough for their opinions to be valid or worth entertaining.
The entire point is....the skills that can be animation cancelled do not have a cast time. Therefore, you aren't by passing anything.5 -
Jimbullbee85✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itJimbullbee85 wrote: »Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?
No. Its not. Go back and read my post #547 where I explain why. While you're at it, please consult a dictionary for the definition of the word 'instant'. The reason this conversation is frustrating for people who support animation cancelling is precisely because the vast majority of the opposition doesn't even understand the concept well enough for their opinions to be valid or worth entertaining.
The entire point is....the skills that can be animation cancelled do not have a cast time. Therefore, you aren't by passing anything.
I presented my comment as a question for a reason. You know... inviting someone who knows what they're talking about to give me some incite. Or is every question deemed satire on this forum? I was under the impression that animation canceling allows the player to deal more dps. So as much as I appreciate your incite your tone isn't very nice my love.Jimbullbee, Templar healer battlemage0 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No let it stayJimbullbee85 wrote: »I presented my comment as a question for a reason. You know... inviting someone who knows what they're talking about to give me some incite. Or is every question deemed satire on this forum? I was under the impression that animation canceling allows the player to deal more dps. So as much as I appreciate your incite your tone isn't very nice my love.
Sorry not my intention to be spiteful, and it wasn't necessarily directed at you but rather the masses that comment on the concept without understanding it. But yes, cancelling does increase dps. Not because it lets you by pass cast times, but rather because it lets you more fluidly and seamlessly chain actions together to allow combos with less down-time between skills.6 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭No let it stayJimbullbee85 wrote: »Jimbullbee85 wrote: »Isnt the idea of animation cancelling to bypass the time it "should" take to cast a spell or abilty? If so it's an exploit. Otherwise there'd be no point having a timer on any skill would there?
No. Its not. Go back and read my post #547 where I explain why. While you're at it, please consult a dictionary for the definition of the word 'instant'. The reason this conversation is frustrating for people who support animation cancelling is precisely because the vast majority of the opposition doesn't even understand the concept well enough for their opinions to be valid or worth entertaining.
The entire point is....the skills that can be animation cancelled do not have a cast time. Therefore, you aren't by passing anything.
I presented my comment as a question for a reason. You know... inviting someone who knows what they're talking about to give me some incite. Or is every question deemed satire on this forum? I was under the impression that animation canceling allows the player to deal more dps. So as much as I appreciate your incite your tone isn't very nice my love.
AC or more specifically weaving increases DPS when it's done smoothly. Weaving is basically working in light/heavy/medium attacks, blocks, bashes, dodges, bar swap etc into a rotation of skills. Tanks and Healers use it too, because more actions in between the GCD is more efficient, but regardless of AC there is a global cooldown of 0.9s for all skills so no other skill can be used during that cooldown.
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dramsb14_ESO✭✭✭Yes get rid of itYes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.2 -
Emencie✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itdramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.0 -
Jimbullbee85✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itJimbullbee85 wrote: »I presented my comment as a question for a reason. You know... inviting someone who knows what they're talking about to give me some incite. Or is every question deemed satire on this forum? I was under the impression that animation canceling allows the player to deal more dps. So as much as I appreciate your incite your tone isn't very nice my love.
Sorry not my intention to be spiteful, and it wasn't necessarily directed at you but rather the masses that comment on the concept without understanding it. But yes, cancelling does increase dps. Not because it lets you by pass cast times, but rather because it lets you more fluidly and seamlessly chain actions together to allow combos with less down-time between skills.
Thanks. It's a bit too fast for some of us to appreciate what's going on in a fight and a bit too fast for some of us to be able to compete against. Certainly for me anyway. The only reason I oppose it is because it doesn't seem to be an intended mechanic and more an exploit that only very good players can take advantage of. You may not agree but I hope yas can understand the frustration on this side of the fence.Jimbullbee, Templar healer battlemage0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
Well there is a global cooldown of 0.9s for all skills, though it is poorly communicated to players in game however.
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!2 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
This is what I don't think people understand. ZOS has embraced AC. They wanted to create fluid combat so you aren't locked into animations. When people started weaving and such they accepted it as a gameplay element. They might not have intended it, but I honestly don't they would fix it even if they could. They have built many gameplay elements around it like what you just mentioned. AC is an accepted part of the game. It might not have been intended for this use originally, but it is now.PC/EU DC6 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭No let it stayI don't understand what's still happening here. Sounds like a majority of the people who want it gone still view AC as some sort of cheat or exploit.
We literally have a video of the big man upstairs saying that AC is not only accepted, but encouraged. "Do better DPS."
6 -
Mojmir✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itdramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
This is what I don't think people understand. ZOS has embraced AC. They wanted to create fluid combat so you aren't locked into animations. When people started weaving and such they accepted it as a gameplay element. They might not have intended it, but I honestly don't they would fix it even if they could. They have built many gameplay elements around it like what you just mentioned. AC is an accepted part of the game. It might not have been intended for this use originally, but it is now.
If they've embraced it,it should be in the tutorial along with standing in stupid.0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
This is what I don't think people understand. ZOS has embraced AC. They wanted to create fluid combat so you aren't locked into animations. When people started weaving and such they accepted it as a gameplay element. They might not have intended it, but I honestly don't they would fix it even if they could. They have built many gameplay elements around it like what you just mentioned. AC is an accepted part of the game. It might not have been intended for this use originally, but it is now.
If they've embraced it,it should be in the tutorial along with standing in stupid.
That's the only thing about AC which is imo wrong. It's not in the tutorial...everything else is fine...Noobplar2 -
Emencie✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itdramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.5 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Noobplar1 -
Emencie✭✭✭✭Yes get rid of itdramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
I remember when the problem was first brought up the devs did want to fix it. But it's simply too ingrained in the game code. So it was decided to simply make it apart of the game.
The problem with it is, it makes gameplay normalization impossible.
Example.
If we are trying to balance dps skill A. We take many things into account, but primarily we need to know how much dps does skill A do. In eso that basic question is nearly impossible to answer but not just because of the basic things all mmos have like buffs and gear, but also because players and latency play a pivotal role.
1. A player who has no idea what AC is
2. The player who is learning to AC
3. The AC pro
4. The AC pro with bad latency
5. The macro keyboard user
All of these people in eso will have drastically different dps while using a single skill even if they have the exact same gear and buffs.
In other mmos these 5 people (using simple auto attack and spamming one skill) will do nearly the same if not the exact same damage.
This is why we have content that is too hard for a group of 4, but also so easy someone can solo it. This is why people complain about unkillable tanks, and instant death gankers in pvp.
drastically different => less than 5k => 10% difference
are you serious?
Very serious.
1 skill + light attck/block/bash weaving
VS
1 skill + spamming it while waiting out the animation.
Is a lot more than a 10% damage difference.4 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
This is what I don't think people understand. ZOS has embraced AC. They wanted to create fluid combat so you aren't locked into animations. When people started weaving and such they accepted it as a gameplay element. They might not have intended it, but I honestly don't they would fix it even if they could. They have built many gameplay elements around it like what you just mentioned. AC is an accepted part of the game. It might not have been intended for this use originally, but it is now.
If they've embraced it,it should be in the tutorial along with standing in stupid.
@Mojmir Its been so long since ive done the tutorial. What does it teach again?
How to heal?
How to tank?
What to keep track of if your dps keeps dying in red so you can compensate?
Threat management and prioritization? (Keep that 2h off your squishies)
How abilities scale with resources?
How sets work (ie another piece for each tier of the sets bonus. I remember that being asked quite a bit.)
How to balance your stats effectively?
Using damage over time abilities along side high single damage abilities?
How a gear set can drasically change the effectiveness of your intended build?
The benifit and efectiveness of penetration, crit, and strait damage and how to balance them to be effective? And their coresponding resistances as well?
Regeneration vs reduction?
Are those covered?
Edited by Shunravi on January 24, 2017 7:57PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!4 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No let it staydramsb14_ESO wrote: »Yes, if you interrupt an animation, you should also be interrupting the spell/ability associated with it.
As easy as that sounds, it's not so simple. Latency would better very impactful if the game were set up like that. Was the animation finished or was it not? It's the same with a % of damage lost based on the length of the animation before it was clipped. There are three instances of what is happening in an online game. What you see, what the other player sees, and what thevserver sees. The server tries to translate the data from the other two so that both see a continuous and seemless instance, but as we all know that is not always the case.
You'd be leaving it up to the server as to whether or not the animation was completed. That would cause a lot of problems in it's own right, on top of increased server load due to the increased processing needed to calculate the effect of each animation as it's used vs a blanket behavior for all of them.
This is why skills are generally limited by things like global cooldowns, weapon speeds, or normalized animations. So that there is no overlap, no cancellation and no need for the server to deal with additional processes.
Though I agree it is not simple for ESO because they built the entire game before they realized this problem, and it would be insane to go back and redo everything to fix it. But that still doesn't make it good for the game IMHO.
But they dont see it as a problem. They even redesigned ultimate gain and skills like grim focus to benifit more from it.
This is what I don't think people understand. ZOS has embraced AC. They wanted to create fluid combat so you aren't locked into animations. When people started weaving and such they accepted it as a gameplay element. They might not have intended it, but I honestly don't they would fix it even if they could. They have built many gameplay elements around it like what you just mentioned. AC is an accepted part of the game. It might not have been intended for this use originally, but it is now.
If they've embraced it,it should be in the tutorial along with standing in stupid.
@Mojmir Its been so long since ive done the tutorial. What does it teach again?
How to heal?
How to tank?
What to keep track of if your dps keeps dying in red so you can compensate?
Threat management and prioritization? (Keep that 2h off your squishies)
How abilities scale with resources?
How sets work (ie another piece for each tier of the sets bonus. I remember that being asked quite a bit.)
How to balance your stats effectively?
Using damage over time abilities along side high single damage abilities?
How a gear set can drasically change the effectiveness of your intended build?
The benifit and efectiveness of penetration, crit, and strait damage and how to balance them to be effective? And their coresponding resistances as well?
Regeneration vs reduction?
Are those covered?
Click skill then click light attack.
I mean really does that need a tutorial, everything should have a tutorial ultimately but light attack canceling is much easier than most people here realize, and doesn't require amazing reaction time.The Age of Wrobel.3