[BUG] Purifying/Power of the Light PTS v2.7.3 (Don't let this go live)

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

**EDIT** Further more conclusive tests on the skill. See @RoyJade comment seen below (click the link)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3721765/#Comment_3721765

*EDIT* After managing to not crash on the PTS for some minutes me and @Valve did some further tests into how the skill is behaving. Click on the link to see our results. Credit also to @RoyJade whom seems to have been able to highlight the main problem with the ability..

Check this out @Autolycus. Maybe can answer some queries you still had.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3717289/#Comment_3717289

Okay so as of PTS build v2.7.2 Power of the light/Purifying light was by passing battle spirit and hitting for 20k instantly after the 6 seconds.

As of PTS v2.7.3 they fixed this. Now (when we manage to not crash instantly or during combat on latest build @ZOS_GinaBruno) it hits for an average 10.3k instantly after the 6 second duration.

I am all for a change to this skill to make it more competitive in PvE and PvP, but 10k instant dmg in PvP is not the change I think we should be looking for. As seen with procs/Incap (incap at least being an ultimate but OP nevertheless), hard hitting skills such as these are unhealthy for the game, limit counterplay and in the case of POTL/PL there is only one counter which is cleanse.

I can already see next patch every Templar in a group (including multiple templars because it stacks will make Purifying light the new Jesus beam and just spam it on everyone and everyone for 'free' 10k dmg, if two temps use it that's 20k dmg and then whilst the others spam you with gap closers and beams that's lights out and RIP solo/small scale PvP for a patch that looks so promising for PvP. 'Oh they buffed Dragonblood? Here heal through this *Casts Purifying light*...

I am all for buffing this skill but for they way it behaves atm, the way it stores dmg (which btw seems to store the cap incredibly easily) then just after the 6 seconds reflects insta 10k Dmg? This skill still needs amendments and if it goes live, expect the immense amount of forum threads.

*Will include videos/screenshots when I can test more intensively on the PTS, the latest build keeps making us CRASH continuously when in combat*

timidobserver · January 2017

You have 6 seconds to deal with it. That is a lifetime in PvP where proc sets can help load 40k dmg into a player instantly.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@timidobserver Deal with it how? Shield and Cleanse only counter besides a free 10k dmg which stacks with other Templars using the skill?

Is this really good for the game? No
I see via signature you main Templar, so do I, but don't try to defend this, it's broken OP.
Stamina would have zero counters to it except Stamplar.

SanTii.92 · January 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

You have 6 seconds to deal with it. That is a lifetime in PvP where proc sets can help load 40k dmg into a player instantly.

Still, if that 10k burst is accurate that would be pretty broken.

usmcjdking · January 2017

RIP BLOCK KNIGHTS

Valve · January 2017

Just tested it by changing CP.
The skill's damage is still bugged and is not being reduced by CP tree AT ALL.

Oh also, the crashes are OP:

timidobserver · January 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

You have 6 seconds to deal with it. That is a lifetime in PvP where proc sets can help load 40k dmg into a player instantly.

Still, if that 10k burst is accurate that would be pretty broken.

1. If you are a Templar cleanse it.
2. If you are a magSorc shield it.
3. If you are a NB cloak to prevent the damage resulting in Purifying light not being built up.
4. If you are a DK or stam sorc you may be in trouble.

Lexxypwns · January 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

You have 6 seconds to deal with it. That is a lifetime in PvP where proc sets can help load 40k dmg into a player instantly.

Still, if that 10k burst is accurate that would be pretty broken.

1. If you are a Templar cleanse it.
2. If you are a magSorc shield it.
3. If you are a NB cloak to prevent the damage resulting in Purifying light not being built up.
4. If you are a DK or stam sorc you may be in trouble.

Cloak doesn't work.

Also, no stam build can counter this except stamplar. This is broken

RoyJade · January 2017

You can prevent damage to be builded. That's the first and main counter.
We just need more testing to see if you can efficiently prevent too much damage to be builded, or if it's just insanely broken. Against a permablocker, all direct damage will be blocked, and will count for only a fraction of their real damage. I think dot would be far more efficient, but we'll see.

Oh, and glad that some immortal build in 1/2v10 won't be able to survive indefinitely when the rest of their group is dead. I just hope the 6 second buildup will make it useless for zergball.

timidobserver · January 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

You have 6 seconds to deal with it. That is a lifetime in PvP where proc sets can help load 40k dmg into a player instantly.

Still, if that 10k burst is accurate that would be pretty broken.

1. If you are a Templar cleanse it.
2. If you are a magSorc shield it.
3. If you are a NB cloak to prevent the damage resulting in Purifying light not being built up.
4. If you are a DK or stam sorc you may be in trouble.

Cloak doesn't work.

Also, no stam build can counter this except stamplar. This is broken

If you aren't taking damage it isn't building. So passively stambuilds counter it by running Shuffle. Then there is cloak, dodge rolling, and los.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@RoyJade The reflected explosive dmg after 6 seconds is not blockable and it stores this cap incredibly easily, too easily where blocking dmg until this point is not viable, if it stored dmg properly then maybe, MAYBE could be justifiable. Using the screenshot as example all I used for dmg was a single cast of vamp bane and entropy.

RoyJade · January 2017

10k damage in 6 second with 50% damage diminution and 22% of previous damage stored means that you've done 90k theoretical damage (more or less 45k real damage after battle spirit). If you can reach that with only vamp bane and entropy, that's mean ZOS haven't addressed the buildup bug that you've showed in your previous thread.

So, it's still buggued, sad

leepalmer95 · January 2017

Lexxypwns wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

You have 6 seconds to deal with it. That is a lifetime in PvP where proc sets can help load 40k dmg into a player instantly.

Still, if that 10k burst is accurate that would be pretty broken.

1. If you are a Templar cleanse it.
2. If you are a magSorc shield it.
3. If you are a NB cloak to prevent the damage resulting in Purifying light not being built up.
4. If you are a DK or stam sorc you may be in trouble.

Cloak doesn't work.

Also, no stam build can counter this except stamplar. This is broken

So the explosion of this skill does 10k dmg?

20% of your dmg applies to this but it's not affected by battle spirit...

So how much dmg is that for the full explosion dmg to happen?

25k?

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

RoyJade wrote: »

10k damage in 6 second with 50% damage diminution and 22% of previous damage stored means that you've done 90k theoretical damage (more or less 45k real damage after battle spirit). If you can reach that with only vamp bane and entropy, that's mean ZOS haven't addressed the buildup bug that you've showed in your previous thread.

So, it's still buggued, sad

Said it better than I ever could

React · January 2017

EDIT: I misunderstood the nature of the bug. I see now that the buildup is being reached without adequate damage being put out. I understand that in 2.7.2, ZOS intended for this cap to be easier to reach (as it should be), however as you've explained here clearly there is something wrong with this buildup if 8k damage can proc a 22k hit

I really want this skill to be good, so that stamplar can up it's PvE DPS slightly and provide an active way to set up burst in PVP without proc sets. Hopefully they will fix the bugs before making any actual changes (or reverts) to the skill itself. I'm sure by now, everyone is eager to test how the skill SHOULD ACTUALLY WORK, since it's been bugged in both PTS builds.

RoyJade · January 2017

@Grumble_and_Grunt may I ask you if you can test purifying/power while doing less than 10k damage, in order to test how many damage are stored exactly ? I'm under the impression that nearly 100% of the damage are stored (or at least far more than the intended 20%).
I'm currently downloading the latest pts patch, so if you need a target dummy, I'll be here soon.

WhiteMage · January 2017

If this is how I can counter those permablock DKs who swap to corrosive and 2h to dish out huge damage... we'll then the nerf to RD is perfectly fine by me! Might want to prevent it from stacking though.

On Live the skill is useless (ik, I've tried) because you can't make it hit 2k without first landing a meteor on them. It is actually more damaging to just throw an extra light attack in than cast it on Live.

usmcjdking · January 2017

Yes.

Delicious stamplar overlords. Nerf to malu and vit pots? Then they give us PVP execute in backlash?

#STAMPLAR2017

Autolycus · January 2017

This is a gross overreaction. Cleansing debuffs is a fundamentally novice concept. The issue here is not the mechanics of the skill. It's not being reduced by CP? Okay, let's fix that. But acting like the skill is broken as hell now is inappropriate.

First of all, cleansing is easy and available to everyone. If you miss a cleanse that you should've taken care of, and you die as a result, then you have been beaten by someone who outplayed you, not someone who cheated or used a broken class or skill.

Second, you can mitigate all of the damage that is being stored up, thereby reducing that by a minimum of 50%, if you block for the full 6s. Now most people will not block for 6s straight, and will prefer to pick and choose which abilities they want to mitigate, which will be stored up for PotL/PL burst damage at the end. What this means is that PotL/PL has been redesigned to not only be effective in a pvp environment, but to also be largely skill-based, rather than going the true "proc set" route.

You are drawing comparisons between this and proc sets too, but there really is no comparison. They are two different beasts and they operate in different ways. Proc sets are free damage, in that they do not have an additional cost to them outside of the skill used to proc it. Therein lies the key difference: Procs are a 2-for-1 benefit, while PotL/PL is a single skill with its own resource cost and can be cleansed, and thus completely nullified. Pairing procs and PotL/PL is a potential issue, but not relevant to this discussion.

I've hit people with a single Strife for 15k before, Dizzying Swings for 12-14k, etc. You should not be concerned about balance when 10.3k is all you get hit with. Did you even block or dodge any of the attacks that were stored up? Surely you could have played that better and reduced the damage further in some way, whereas with every other burst damage skill, the full damage is dished out in a single hit (not allowing you 6s to do something about it). If you ask me, this was a good change to pair with reductions to Jesus Beam. Sounds to me like magplars in pvp will have more complex rotations / skill priorities than in previous updates. That's a good thing.

That's all I have to say about that. On a separate note... why is Healing Ward on your kill counter?

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Liam12548 Agree would like to test intended changes, perhaps this is the main issue besides the previous battle spirit, since it hits the same value regardless of oppositions resistances/CP etc etc. The other problem is the way it stores the dmg isn't correct making reaching the cap too easily as @RoyJade pointed out.

@RoyJade We can try man, but we all logged off since it's crashing everyone constantly

PM me when on and can try quick, but don't get your hopes up xD

RoyJade · January 2017

I just crashed while downloading the update xD
Two times now.

I keep my hopes up, but not my expectations. My head see the worst case, my spirit the best, likes alway.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Autolycus it is not a gross over reaction xD your response is gross ignorance, have you been following the thread? my previous thread? scroll back and find it to see how this skill is currently behaving then come back to this thread and post your results from the PTS, so we can then debate your arguments on a level playing field mmkay?

On a sidenote it shows healing ward as we were testing shields as counterplay so this is just dmg I did towards the shield of healing ward at the time.

React · January 2017

Another obvious factor to consider is the ability to actually put damage on a target with stamplar skills in PvP. You won't land 5/5 jabs, you may let a DoT lapse, you might get stunned during the PoTL duration, etc. Hitting a standstill target with a perfect rotation is an unrealistic test of the PVP potency of the skill. Only mentioning this as I hope that it will be considered during testing after the buildup bug is fixed.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@Liam12548 The problem is this wasn't a perfect rotation, this was 2 skills excluding PL. one of the skills dmg (Degeneration) being simply negligible. so that's simply with Vamp bane and it stored all the dmg to reflect 10k. That's part of the problem and also applies to @Autolycus claims that you can mitigate avoid the stored dmg because, well you can't do so successfully.

Autolycus · January 2017

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

@Liam12548 The problem is this wasn't a perfect rotation, this was 2 skills excluding PL. one of the skills dmg (Degeneration) being simply negligible. so that's simply with Vamp bane and it stored all the dmg to reflect 10k. That's part of the problem and also applies to @Autolycus claims that you can mitigate avoid the stored dmg because, well you can't do so successfully.

Well, I read before I posted, and I still think you're overreacting. So, you can address my individual points and tell me why I'm wrong, or save your salt for someone else.

You can't mitigate the damage? Why? Is it because of the horrible connectivity, or do you have some actual basis for this argument? Did you even try to block the damage being stored up? Did you test it with varying degrees of resistances? Did you test multiple skills while attempting to mitigate? Did you test it against shields? More importantly... were you maintaining a stable connection to the server during your tests?

I see a ton of subjective content in your post, but very little empirical data. You make no mention of the specific things you tried. Instead you claim that it is completely unmitigated. Well, for you to make that claim and have me believe you, you're going to have to at least detail which skills you tried and what efforts you made to maintain constants in a true test environment.

Battle Spirit not reducing the damage as it should is a separate issue. You cannot say "wow this skill so broken and will ruin balance" when the skill itself is not the culprit. The relationship between Backlash and Battle Spirit is faulty, and that's the issue you should be underlining here. You see the difference? Saying how broken and unbalanced a skill is based upon implementation bugs is not constructive, and neither is ranting about how people don't read your post simply because they disagree.

Lexxypwns · January 2017

Autolycus wrote: »

This is a gross overreaction. Cleansing debuffs is a fundamentally novice concept. The issue here is not the mechanics of the skill. It's not being reduced by CP? Okay, let's fix that. But acting like the skill is broken as hell now is inappropriate.

First of all, cleansing is easy and available to everyone. If you miss a cleanse that you should've taken care of, and you die as a result, then you have been beaten by someone who outplayed you, not someone who cheated or used a broken class or skill.

Second, you can mitigate all of the damage that is being stored up, thereby reducing that by a minimum of 50%, if you block for the full 6s. Now most people will not block for 6s straight, and will prefer to pick and choose which abilities they want to mitigate, which will be stored up for PotL/PL burst damage at the end. What this means is that PotL/PL has been redesigned to not only be effective in a pvp environment, but to also be largely skill-based, rather than going the true "proc set" route.

You are drawing comparisons between this and proc sets too, but there really is no comparison. They are two different beasts and they operate in different ways. Proc sets are free damage, in that they do not have an additional cost to them outside of the skill used to proc it. Therein lies the key difference: Procs are a 2-for-1 benefit, while PotL/PL is a single skill with its own resource cost and can be cleansed, and thus completely nullified. Pairing procs and PotL/PL is a potential issue, but not relevant to this discussion.

I've hit people with a single Strife for 15k before, Dizzying Swings for 12-14k, etc. You should not be concerned about balance when 10.3k is all you get hit with. Did you even block or dodge any of the attacks that were stored up? Surely you could have played that better and reduced the damage further in some way, whereas with every other burst damage skill, the full damage is dished out in a single hit (not allowing you 6s to do something about it). If you ask me, this was a good change to pair with reductions to Jesus Beam. Sounds to me like magplars in pvp will have more complex rotations / skill priorities than in previous updates. That's a good thing.

That's all I have to say about that. On a separate note... why is Healing Ward on your kill counter?

10k damage is nothing. 10k concurrent damage that you can time with an ult is HUGE. Theoretically, you could have this, eye, and sweeps tick all at once... or heavy attack+viper+dawnbreaker+this

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

10k damage with little to no counter having groups spam it on you also might I add. As for earlier comment cleanse is not easily accessible to all classes, only in groups will it be easily accessible or if a Templar...

RoyJade · January 2017

While consistently crashing trying to download the pts, some calculation :
Purifying/PotL actually store 18% of all damage done to the target in order to release a powerful final hit. The stored damage don't apply battle spirit (a 5k tooltip who does 2k5 with battle spirit would count as 5k and store 5x0,18 = 900 damage), but the final damage is affected by battle spirit (so with 5k tooltip damage and no mitigation on the target, you'll do 900/2 = 450 damage).
So… in order to do 10k damage with the final burst, you need to do 20k stored damage. These 20k damage should be 18% of the damage the target has suffered. That's mean you need to do 20x100:18 = 111 k damage to the target (without battle spirit), so 55k damage after battle spirit in 6 second.

From what I've understand, stored damage are intended to be affected by all mitigations (block, cp, resistances), so you actually need to do 55k real damage to your target. If he can survive to 55k damage in 6 second, he took a final 10k hit (or 20k with two templars, 30k with three). So the "big insta-burst" is basically here to take down unbreakable tank who can survive insane number of damages. On this case, this skill is clearly not broken. Most of the time, this skill should only apply 3-4k damage for a timed burst.
If it doesn't count mitigation, the damage cap is far easier to reach. 55k damage in 6 second would be easy to reach with three-four players in common situations, but hard in 1v1 situation when the enemy apply an offensive pressure.

Buuuut… what @Grumble_and_Grunt showed is that you need to do only little damage to reach the damage cap, so that's basically a 10k free damage every 6 second (with only entropy/vampire bane). Since I highly doubt entropy + vampire bane can do even 111k unmitigated damage in 6 second, my theory is that the storing damage mechanism is currently buggued, and the skill copy far higher than 18% damage. I don't know how many : 50% ? 100% ? 118% ? We need to test that.
But since the launcher keep crashing at 4500MB left, I'm afraid I won't be able to get the response for now

SanTii.92 · January 2017

10k on demand burst with little to no counterplay, if it's as easy to cap the stored damage, is beyond broken.

Grumble_and_Grunt · January 2017

@RoyJade Very good and thorough explanation thank you, very helpful in helping show the potential root of the problem, would help devs know where to start looking or start adjusting, assuming battle spirit was not the problem originally and they simply just adjusted the numerical values. Shame we can not test further because of the crashes

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

usmcjdking · January 2017

POTL/Purifying Light does not stack with themselves, but they do with eachother.