Mildly bias opinion on why this very particular formula of MMO doesn't sit well with me

Dagoth_Rac · January 2017

Bradleyastab14_ESO wrote: »

Remag_Div wrote: »

I do wish this game was a more sandbox experience and less themepark. It's still a good MMO with tons of content but they did play it a bit safe, I agree.

Sandbox is a bit too generalized a term i think.

People here are asking for suggestions. I can't come up with anything good as this isn't my field.

However, using the current system i think there could have been a more impact result from our decisions using the mega server technology.

For an extreme example, ill use a scenario similar to fallouts. Perhaps theres some major decision you make in ESO that decides the entire fate of a town. Like say, either unleashing oblivion on a town and obliterating it (With following quest lines in the realm of oblivion), or rescuing the town and having an alternate quest line for the still-intact town

Having a consistent story and world and narrative across players is important in ESO due to its emphasis on as little separation as possible between players.

The kind of unique character decisions you want present serious complications for grouping and playing with others. Suddenly everyone is experiencing a different story and world. Do you respect those choices and prevent players from grouping with other players who made different choices? Or can you group with anyone you want? In that case, whose "world" takes precedence? The group leader? If you jump into a different world and storyline every time you group with someone, it kind of destroys that sense of your choices having long-lasting meaning and impact. And it can cause confusion and annoyance for players. If you just spent days saving a bunch of towns all across a zone, you may not want to group with another player and suddenly see all those towns burned to the ground and summoned Daedra all over the place because other player made the "evil" choices in quests.

But if you cannot group with players who made different choices than you, you now have a much reduced set of players to group with, which is a big problem in an MMO. You want people to quickly and easily and consistently form groups and that requires as large a population of other players to group with as possible. That is the major reason that no matter what choices you make along the way in a quest, they always essentially end the same and with the same impact on game world. Because you need to have all players on the same page, so to say, upon quest completion.

ZOS are not preventing our choices from making permanent impact on the game world out of spite or laziness. The demands of a game that emphasizes social interactions and playing together is in conflict with each player being given choices that permanently alter the game world. It will inevitably lead to players being "phased" into instances shared with fewer and fewer people who made same choices as you. You do hundreds of quests and make hundreds of choices with real impact on game world. You now have a unique, immersive, personalized, varied experience ... and hardly anyone to share it with.

Bradleyastab14_ESO · January 2017

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Bradleyastab14_ESO wrote: »

Remag_Div wrote: »

I do wish this game was a more sandbox experience and less themepark. It's still a good MMO with tons of content but they did play it a bit safe, I agree.

Sandbox is a bit too generalized a term i think.

People here are asking for suggestions. I can't come up with anything good as this isn't my field.

However, using the current system i think there could have been a more impact result from our decisions using the mega server technology.

For an extreme example, ill use a scenario similar to fallouts. Perhaps theres some major decision you make in ESO that decides the entire fate of a town. Like say, either unleashing oblivion on a town and obliterating it (With following quest lines in the realm of oblivion), or rescuing the town and having an alternate quest line for the still-intact town

Having a consistent story and world and narrative across players is important in ESO due to its emphasis on as little separation as possible between players.

The kind of unique character decisions you want present serious complications for grouping and playing with others. Suddenly everyone is experiencing a different story and world. Do you respect those choices and prevent players from grouping with other players who made different choices? Or can you group with anyone you want? In that case, whose "world" takes precedence? The group leader? If you jump into a different world and storyline every time you group with someone, it kind of destroys that sense of your choices having long-lasting meaning and impact. And it can cause confusion and annoyance for players. If you just spent days saving a bunch of towns all across a zone, you may not want to group with another player and suddenly see all those towns burned to the ground and summoned Daedra all over the place because other player made the "evil" choices in quests.

But if you cannot group with players who made different choices than you, you now have a much reduced set of players to group with, which is a big problem in an MMO. You want people to quickly and easily and consistently form groups and that requires as large a population of other players to group with as possible. That is the major reason that no matter what choices you make along the way in a quest, they always essentially end the same and with the same impact on game world. Because you need to have all players on the same page, so to say, upon quest completion.

ZOS are not preventing our choices from making permanent impact on the game world out of spite or laziness. The demands of a game that emphasizes social interactions and playing together is in conflict with each player being given choices that permanently alter the game world. It will inevitably lead to players being "phased" into instances shared with fewer and fewer people who made same choices as you. You do hundreds of quests and make hundreds of choices with real impact on game world. You now have a unique, immersive, personalized, varied experience ... and hardly anyone to share it with.

I understand that you seem to side with the paradigm of the developers and their fatal decision to do something safe and tried.

I, on the other hand, believe i'd very much enjoy the aspect of occasionally running into another player who just so happens to have the same world choices as i.

Especially considering the view of the devs was to have it "feel" like a solo rpg experience

The game could even have a list updated in real time of the players that are currently sharing a world which relates to your choices on those fatal decisions, so you can go find those players (who obviously have something in common with you already) and cherish the fact that you are, in fact, playing with another player in a true elder scrolls experience. The player interaction in this case would follow the "quality over quantity" paradigm.

DragonBound · January 2017

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It sounds to me like you're looking for a single player RPG experience.

MMOs will never be as deep as single player RPGs. If you're looking for the same level of depth and sense of personal impact in an MMO, you will disappointed. It's just not possible to design a multiplayer experience that plays like that.

Older mmorpgs had tons of classes and depth your very wrong here.

I'm playing through the story right now and it feels like a single play RPG. Once that is done I know the game will shift a bit to more group content like most MMOs do. You have the initial content which is usually done solo to allow you to develop skill to play end game. From there you continue with solo content to fine tune your skill to play end game. Than you play end game content. RPG simply does the story and than you are done.

As for classes, in other game most classes can be two roles: DPS and support or two support roles. Very rarely does other MMOS offer the ability to play all roles with 1 class. Than to top it off, like other games ESO has weapon type DPS (stamina) and magical based DPS. So depth of character is there and there are plenty of skills to learn and develop to expand on your character.

ESO is far from perfect, every MMO has flaws, but this game has quite a bit going for it.

I'm still far off from reaching end game but I will continue to play my character and grind out content to get his level up to end game.

As I said older mmorpgs, I am not talking about current classes but your forgetting allow of roles, from eq1, 2, city of heroes, to even wow, there was roles for cc, mana batteries, roles for buffing classes, roles for all different kinds of styles of play, offhealers, off tanks, the list goes on and they where all viable in these games, tons of hybrids existed and it worked.

DragonBound · January 2017

Tandor wrote: »

It sounds to me like the OP wants a sandbox MMO, not a theme park one. For that to happen, however, the MMO couldn't be derived from an established IP like TES as with that comes a preset world and lore. It's also impractical in a MMO to have hundreds of thousands of unique characters - although in my view the appearance aspect is something that ZOS have nailed very well (especially since the introduction of dyes) as I have never come across another character looking even remotely like any of my characters.

I think it is more about playing like other characters, you know the same builds, rotations, and etc. Obviously we have more options for style like motifs.

Nestor · January 2017

I think most video games suffer from the Star Trek Syndrome. 430 Officers and Crew on the Star Ship and only the Captain goes to the Planet (OK, with the other 3 most important crew on the ship).

Not sure if it's a Trope that developers are loath to get away from or what. Although it seems from the limited amount of playing GTA, that your pretty much a scrub dropped off in the world and there is nothing special about you. Could not get into the GTA games becuase I could never drive the car very well. And, GTA is not really an RPG, just has some elements of an RPG.

Anyway, I guess the big question is, can an MMORPG be built around a Scrub Character that lives in the game world with no special purpose or lineage or reason for being? I have yet to see an RPG that is built that way. Well, you can ignore the main quests in the other Bethesda RPG's, but the Main Quest still makes you the Special Snowflake of the Game World. But, at least you can carve out some anonymity in those games.

So that is the real question, if someone builds an RPG, MMO or Not, that gives the PC Anonymity and leaves them no more special than any Generic NPC, would anyone play it?

Solariken · January 2017

Your points are valid, OP, and I agree to an extent. There is very little imagination or originality in this game as a whole and it can feel very superficial in its systems. But the PvP and theory crafting is fun for me, so I've stayed around.

It will be a while, but I have a feeling I'll be seeing you in Camelot Unchained.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

CosmicSoul wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It sounds to me like you're looking for a single player RPG experience.

MMOs will never be as deep as single player RPGs. If you're looking for the same level of depth and sense of personal impact in an MMO, you will disappointed. It's just not possible to design a multiplayer experience that plays like that.

Older mmorpgs had tons of classes and depth your very wrong here.

I'm playing through the story right now and it feels like a single play RPG. Once that is done I know the game will shift a bit to more group content like most MMOs do. You have the initial content which is usually done solo to allow you to develop skill to play end game. From there you continue with solo content to fine tune your skill to play end game. Than you play end game content. RPG simply does the story and than you are done.

As for classes, in other game most classes can be two roles: DPS and support or two support roles. Very rarely does other MMOS offer the ability to play all roles with 1 class. Than to top it off, like other games ESO has weapon type DPS (stamina) and magical based DPS. So depth of character is there and there are plenty of skills to learn and develop to expand on your character.

ESO is far from perfect, every MMO has flaws, but this game has quite a bit going for it.

I'm still far off from reaching end game but I will continue to play my character and grind out content to get his level up to end game.

As I said older mmorpgs, I am not talking about current classes but your forgetting allow of roles, from eq1, 2, city of heroes, to even wow, there was roles for cc, mana batteries, roles for buffing classes, roles for all different kinds of styles of play, offhealers, off tanks, the list goes on and they where all viable in these games, tons of hybrids existed and it worked.

You are absloutely Correct . The combat Dynamics in ESO are lacking in comparison . The dynamics of a game with a larger group and role requirement of Tank,helar , DPS, CC, Buffing, And utility made for much more engaging encounters and exciting dynamic combat. In ESO DPS is really the only dynamic that matter, this and situational awareness. This is a very watered down easy bake oven design and leaves little room for enriching and expanding the group dynamics.

LadyNalcarya · January 2017

Nestor wrote: »

I think most video games suffer from the Star Trek Syndrome. 430 Officers and Crew on the Star Ship and only the Captain goes to the Planet (OK, with the other 3 most important crew on the ship).

Not sure if it's a Trope that developers are loath to get away from or what. Although it seems from the limited amount of playing GTA, that your pretty much a scrub dropped off in the world and there is nothing special about you. Could not get into the GTA games becuase I could never drive the car very well. And, GTA is not really an RPG, just has some elements of an RPG.

Anyway, I guess the big question is, can an MMORPG be built around a Scrub Character that lives in the game world with no special purpose or lineage or reason for being? I have yet to see an RPG that is built that way. Well, you can ignore the main quests in the other Bethesda RPG's, but the Main Quest still makes you the Special Snowflake of the Game World. But, at least you can carve out some anonymity in those games.

So that is the real question, if someone builds an RPG, MMO or Not, that gives the PC Anonymity and leaves them no more special than any Generic NPC, would anyone play it?

Thats an interesting question.
I personally like TES mods that disable main quest(of course, only after I finish it for the first time) and alternate start mods , it just seems more immersive this way (for me anyway).
There's a decent amount of games that dont make your char too OP, though. Dark Souls, for example (even though there's still a "chosen one" theme and you can break the game with super builds, first playthrought is always quite brutal).
And all those sandbox mmos... Life is feudal, Chronicles of Elyria etc.

kevlarto_ESO · January 2017

CosmicSoul wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It sounds to me like you're looking for a single player RPG experience.

MMOs will never be as deep as single player RPGs. If you're looking for the same level of depth and sense of personal impact in an MMO, you will disappointed. It's just not possible to design a multiplayer experience that plays like that.

Older mmorpgs had tons of classes and depth your very wrong here.

Older mmo's did have more depth and content, the journey was more important than end game, because it took you along time to get to end game in the older games, not sure if that formula would fly these days they would at best be a niche game, times have changed, free to play, buy to play app games none of that stuff was really around back in the early EQ days.

ESO has tried to bridge a gap between a single player game franchise and an online mmo, and give the fans of both the single player games and mmo's a place to play, they have done ok in some areas, but it will never be enough in either direction to please some people,

I would love to see some online games that are not just cookie cutter games with a different skin.

acw37162 · January 2017

So here is a list for OP;

1. By any means necessary secure for yourself a top name Intectual Property. This usually invokes millions of dollars but if you have one under you mattress, have the appropriate blackmail or financing, or can sleep your way to go ham. Step one is simple secure your IP

2. After you have borrowed to nth degree, moved your mattress, or made a lot of people feel very special set about the three to ten year process of desiging and building your game.

3. Release your game out into the public.

4. Compare your metrics against ZoS sales, subscriptions, micro transactions, at 1, 3, and 5 years.

5. Post your results and trade seecrests in trade journals and enjoy you hard fought success, legacy, and subustantial compensation package.

Barring that you are one opinion among many with more merit gen some and less then others. Also if moving a slider around designing your perfect cheekbone height is your pinnacle accomplishment in this game I'm going to support what another poster said, this game may not be for you.

DragonBound · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It sounds to me like you're looking for a single player RPG experience.

MMOs will never be as deep as single player RPGs. If you're looking for the same level of depth and sense of personal impact in an MMO, you will disappointed. It's just not possible to design a multiplayer experience that plays like that.

Older mmorpgs had tons of classes and depth your very wrong here.

I'm playing through the story right now and it feels like a single play RPG. Once that is done I know the game will shift a bit to more group content like most MMOs do. You have the initial content which is usually done solo to allow you to develop skill to play end game. From there you continue with solo content to fine tune your skill to play end game. Than you play end game content. RPG simply does the story and than you are done.

As for classes, in other game most classes can be two roles: DPS and support or two support roles. Very rarely does other MMOS offer the ability to play all roles with 1 class. Than to top it off, like other games ESO has weapon type DPS (stamina) and magical based DPS. So depth of character is there and there are plenty of skills to learn and develop to expand on your character.

ESO is far from perfect, every MMO has flaws, but this game has quite a bit going for it.

I'm still far off from reaching end game but I will continue to play my character and grind out content to get his level up to end game.

As I said older mmorpgs, I am not talking about current classes but your forgetting allow of roles, from eq1, 2, city of heroes, to even wow, there was roles for cc, mana batteries, roles for buffing classes, roles for all different kinds of styles of play, offhealers, off tanks, the list goes on and they where all viable in these games, tons of hybrids existed and it worked.

You are absloutely Correct . The combat Dynamics in ESO are lacking in comparison . The dynamics of a game with a larger group and role requirement of Tank,helar , DPS, CC, Buffing, And utility made for much more engaging encounters and exciting dynamic combat. In ESO DPS is really the only dynamic that matter, this and situational awareness. This is a very watered down easy bake oven design and leaves little room for enriching and expanding the group dynamics.

Exactly this game could be far more fun then it is.

DragonBound · January 2017

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It sounds to me like you're looking for a single player RPG experience.

MMOs will never be as deep as single player RPGs. If you're looking for the same level of depth and sense of personal impact in an MMO, you will disappointed. It's just not possible to design a multiplayer experience that plays like that.

Older mmorpgs had tons of classes and depth your very wrong here.

Older mmo's did have more depth and content, the journey was more important than end game, because it took you along time to get to end game in the older games, not sure if that formula would fly these days they would at best be a niche game, times have changed, free to play, buy to play app games none of that stuff was really around back in the early EQ days.

ESO has tried to bridge a gap between a single player game franchise and an online mmo, and give the fans of both the single player games and mmo's a place to play, they have done ok in some areas, but it will never be enough in either direction to please some people,

I would love to see some online games that are not just cookie cutter games with a different skin.

I know and it is sad, but I have a feeling its making a come back people are tried of cookie cutter and realizing older mmorpgs had allot more to offer.

Kamatsu · January 2017

Nestor wrote: »

Anyway, I guess the big question is, can an MMORPG be built around a Scrub Character that lives in the game world with no special purpose or lineage or reason for being? I have yet to see an RPG that is built that way. Well, you can ignore the main quests in the other Bethesda RPG's, but the Main Quest still makes you the Special Snowflake of the Game World. But, at least you can carve out some anonymity in those games.

Not sure how it is now, but Lord of the Rings Online was something similar to this. Your characters were just ordinary citizens and/or lowly adventurer's who weren't the main focus of the 'story' or 'game'. What happened is you stumbled upon a series of events which led you along... where you basically played a 'supporting' role to Frodo & the fellowship. The main story and npc's focus was on what Frodo & such were doing, and while your characters did gain in fame as you went on... your character was not the be-all and end-all of the story. This actually allowed justification for all the others running around, since none of you were the focus of the 'story'... everyone was just side-characters dealing with side plots, side characters and off-screen stuff.

No idea what happened after the Mines of Moria expansion however, as for various reason's I stopped playing at around that time. But I felt the premise of how you weren't the main focus of the story was great.

But could a MMO that's not based off a pre-existing storyline actually pull this off? *shrugs* I don't know if it could, or if it would be very well accepted by the populace... since a lot of ppl love the idea that they are the 'saviors' of the game/story, and not just some side-character that doesn't make much difference in the whole scheme of things. At least not a 'story driven' MMO. Open-world sandpit MMO's can do it just fine - just look at Eve Online for instance - but thats as they don't have a 'story' the revolves around anything that's anything worth writing home about, or linear in any form.

Lylith · January 2017

Rungar wrote: »

to be honest ive never seen such a well crafted mmo with so much accessible content that you can play with a controller in first person.

I cant believe its not more popular. Its like a Syrim version of Dark Age of Camelot.

I don't pvp much and I know there are issues there, but my biggest gripe would be the lack of a search function at the guild vendors.

for pc

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info695-AwesomeGuildStore.html

CapnPhoton · January 2017

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It sounds to me like you're looking for a single player RPG experience.

MMOs will never be as deep as single player RPGs. If you're looking for the same level of depth and sense of personal impact in an MMO, you will disappointed. It's just not possible to design a multiplayer experience that plays like that.

I think this game does a decent job at creating story lines. There are other games out there that don't come close. But this formula is not for everyone and I would have to agree that it seems like you are looking for what could be better offered in a single player game.

hmsdragonfly · January 2017

Bradleyastab14_ESO wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Bradleyastab14_ESO wrote: »

Remag_Div wrote: »

I do wish this game was a more sandbox experience and less themepark. It's still a good MMO with tons of content but they did play it a bit safe, I agree.

Sandbox is a bit too generalized a term i think.

People here are asking for suggestions. I can't come up with anything good as this isn't my field.

However, using the current system i think there could have been a more impact result from our decisions using the mega server technology.

For an extreme example, ill use a scenario similar to fallouts. Perhaps theres some major decision you make in ESO that decides the entire fate of a town. Like say, either unleashing oblivion on a town and obliterating it (With following quest lines in the realm of oblivion), or rescuing the town and having an alternate quest line for the still-intact town

Having a consistent story and world and narrative across players is important in ESO due to its emphasis on as little separation as possible between players.

The kind of unique character decisions you want present serious complications for grouping and playing with others. Suddenly everyone is experiencing a different story and world. Do you respect those choices and prevent players from grouping with other players who made different choices? Or can you group with anyone you want? In that case, whose "world" takes precedence? The group leader? If you jump into a different world and storyline every time you group with someone, it kind of destroys that sense of your choices having long-lasting meaning and impact. And it can cause confusion and annoyance for players. If you just spent days saving a bunch of towns all across a zone, you may not want to group with another player and suddenly see all those towns burned to the ground and summoned Daedra all over the place because other player made the "evil" choices in quests.

But if you cannot group with players who made different choices than you, you now have a much reduced set of players to group with, which is a big problem in an MMO. You want people to quickly and easily and consistently form groups and that requires as large a population of other players to group with as possible. That is the major reason that no matter what choices you make along the way in a quest, they always essentially end the same and with the same impact on game world. Because you need to have all players on the same page, so to say, upon quest completion.

ZOS are not preventing our choices from making permanent impact on the game world out of spite or laziness. The demands of a game that emphasizes social interactions and playing together is in conflict with each player being given choices that permanently alter the game world. It will inevitably lead to players being "phased" into instances shared with fewer and fewer people who made same choices as you. You do hundreds of quests and make hundreds of choices with real impact on game world. You now have a unique, immersive, personalized, varied experience ... and hardly anyone to share it with.

I understand that you seem to side with the paradigm of the developers and their fatal decision to do something safe and tried.

I, on the other hand, believe i'd very much enjoy the aspect of occasionally running into another player who just so happens to have the same world choices as i.

Especially considering the view of the devs was to have it "feel" like a solo rpg experience

The game could even have a list updated in real time of the players that are currently sharing a world which relates to your choices on those fatal decisions, so you can go find those players (who obviously have something in common with you already) and cherish the fact that you are, in fact, playing with another player in a true elder scrolls experience. The player interaction in this case would follow the "quality over quantity" paradigm.

I don't want to burst your bubble but what you are suggesting is impossible to do. Down right impractical. How many variations of the the world could it be, if there are 10 decisions to make? How buggy will it be?

ZOS has already been putting people in different instances based on quest stage. For example, at Mathiisen, if you at haven't done the quest, you are put in Instance A with everyone in Mathiisen that hasn't done the quest. If you are at stage 2 of the quest, you are put into Instance B, with everyone who is at stage 2. If you have finished the quest, you are put into Instance C, with the rest of the players.
Guess what, it is already been buggy af. It affects everything, even outside Mathiisen (yes, the complex of coding), to as far as Cyrodiil and some instance-based dungeons that has nothing to do with Mathiisen. Remember when you see some of your groupmates suddenly invisible that you can't even rez or interact with them? Yeah, that.

OK. Move on. You want to connect everything right? Decision A of this town leads to decsion B of the other town. So, let's say, for example, there are 4 towns in Auridon. Each town has 4 decisions you can make. How many variations of Auridon you think there will be, 16? WRONG. There are 4*4=256 variations. Firstly, no one can writes a 256 variations of a zone, when the game has like 20 zones. No one has time and resources for that. Secondly, it is down right impossible to code. If you are some genius that can code something like that, not only ZOS, but every major game developing studio will pay tons of money to get you to work for them. Even Skyrim doesn't provide you that experience. In Skyrim, you make a total of 1 choice that affects the world: joining Stormcloak or Imperial.