Balance solution for heavy armour

hassubhai · January 2017

Ok so hear me out. I have always been under the impression that the purpose of penetration was to take down tankier targets and be less effective vs squishy target however in eso this definetly isnt the case.

If you have 5k penetration and attack a player with 6k resistances its as if they have 1k resitances and if you attack a player who has 20k resistances its as if they have 15k resistances.

This means that penetration is more or less being used to just boost your overall damage rather than penetrate through high resistances.

I think the solution to this is to make penetration percentage based but have high percentages, things like 30% penetration on sharpened but this is only active when in pvp whereas in pve its back to the usual 5k.

This isnt exactly what i think should happen but i strongly believe penetration is completely wrong atm and need to be switched up to combat heavy in pvp.

This imo will cure the heavy armour meta in pvp by adding counter play.

Skinzz · January 2017

Just make it so shuffle can only be used if you're wearing at least 5 pieces of medium armor.

hassubhai · January 2017

Yes

xskinzcity wrote: »

Just make it so shuffle can only be used if you're wearing at least 5 pieces of medium armor.

Whilst this seems like a good option i dont think it will fully make it so heavy armour is balanced. The major issue with heavy is the lack if counter play and the fact that it allows too much. %penetration would fix this. But taking shuffle away could possibly even be too much its just something that needs to be tested

Riejael · January 2017

I'm surprised they didn't just make Heavy armor have high resist against physical, low against magic. Then do the opposite with light armor, high resist against spells and low against physical, and then medium is inbetween, jack of all trades.

hassubhai · January 2017

Yes

Riejael wrote: »

I'm surprised they didn't just make Heavy armor have high resist against physical, low against magic. Then do the opposite with light armor, high resist against spells and low against physical, and then medium is inbetween, jack of all trades.

Because all that does is creates a triangle and makes it so the only counter play to a certain are armour is completely changing your build. Also means you would not be able to kill certain builds simply because theirs directly counters yours

Doctordarkspawn · January 2017

No

xskinzcity wrote: »

Just make it so shuffle can only be used if you're wearing at least 5 pieces of medium armor.

This.

Also, remove wrath, put bracing back where it belongs.

Riejael · January 2017

hassubhai wrote: »

Riejael wrote: »

I'm surprised they didn't just make Heavy armor have high resist against physical, low against magic. Then do the opposite with light armor, high resist against spells and low against physical, and then medium is inbetween, jack of all trades.

Because all that does is creates a triangle and makes it so the only counter play to a certain are armour is completely changing your build. Also means you would not be able to kill certain builds simply because theirs directly counters yours

It worked in PS2.

Samwell Slayer · January 2017

No

hassubhai wrote: »

Ok so hear me out. I have always been under the impression that the purpose of penetration was to take down tankier targets and be less effective vs squishy target however in eso this definetly isnt the case.

If you have 5k penetration and attack a player with 6k resistances its as if they have 1k resitances and if you attack a player who has 20k resistances its as if they have 15k resistances.

This means that penetration is more or less being used to just boost your overall damage rather than penetrate through high resistances.

I think the solution to this is to make penetration percentage based but have high percentages, things like 30% penetration on sharpened but this is only active when in pvp whereas in pve its back to the usual 5k.

This isnt exactly what i think should happen but i strongly believe penetration is completely wrong atm and need to be switched up to combat heavy in pvp.

This imo will cure the heavy armour meta in pvp by adding counter play.

You have this wrong. Assuming you don't over pen, if an enemy player has R resist and you have P pen, then you will be doing

100 x P/(66000-R)

percent more damage than if you had none. For enemy NPC's as opposed to players just replace the 66000 by 50000. Note that at hard cap (R=33000) you get double the damage increase from adding pen than for enemies with low resist (you might even over penetrate giving you nearly no damage increase!).

1mirg · January 2017

Other

Riejael wrote: »

I'm surprised they didn't just make Heavy armor have high resist against physical, low against magic. Then do the opposite with light armor, high resist against spells and low against physical, and then medium is inbetween, jack of all trades.

Yeah, I still don't understand why they didn't go with this set up. I mean it would make sense too. You'd think that this is how the armor system would work ingame but it doesn't.

Heavy armor: best at resisting physical attacks but extremely low resistance in magical attacks.
Medium armor: moderate resistance in both magic and physical attacks.
Light armor: best at resisting magical attacks but extremely low resistance in physical attacks.

Minalan · January 2017

Other

Heavy armor needs to reduce speed and mobility per piece worn. Moving slower would balance that kind of defensive build.

On the flip side, light and medium should move faster.

Riejael · January 2017

Minalan wrote: »

Heavy armor needs to reduce speed and mobility per piece worn. Moving slower would balance that kind of defensive build.

On the flip side, light and medium should move faster.

Any sort of armor is going to slow people down if you're going for realism. So if you want to go that route. Leave it as is. But increase people's speed by 15% when they have NO armor equipped.

Pointless though, as you even start a new character with armor, so this change really isn't warranted.

starkerealm · January 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Also, remove wrath, put bracing back where it belongs.

Mostly just this. Or Nerf Black Rose. Mostly that.

TequilaFire · January 2017

Stop blaming heavy armor for OP heavy sets armor like Black Rose.
In PvP we need to survive for at least a few seconds when 20 players are on you.
I don't expect to survive in that situation but I should at least to be able to take a couple with me.

usmcjdking · January 2017

Rework Wrath.

Remove heavy attack sustain mod.

TequilaFire · January 2017

Rework damage from stealth.

bg22 · January 2017

Other

It's a good start, but I made a thread the other day with a Rock Paper Scissors solution, which I think would kill many birds with 1 stone. My solution would open a plethora of play-styles and builds which currently are just not even remotely competitive. All whilst completely preventing any sort of FotM build.

Keep in mind, what most fail to realize is that "balance" does not mean every build, armor, play-style is equally good at everything. At that point, everything is exactly the same but with a different "wrapper". Balance means you excel at certain things, while simultaneously having weaknesses that are equal in value.

I.e. the Light Armor wearer (LA) has the advantage against the Heavy Armor wearer (HA) due to HA's lower spell resistance. The spell resistance is lower because metal is a conductor of heat, electricity, susceptible to frost, etc.

The Medium Armor wearer (MA) has the advantage against the LA due to LA's vulnerability to weapon and physical damage, and MA's resistance to elements (fire, electricity, frost, etc).

While HA has the advantage against MA due to HA's invulnerability against weapon damage, whilst having enough damage to wear out MA's health because of MA's mediocre physical resistance.

Here's a link to the thread, and chart I made to simply demonstrate the balance.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3679484#Comment_3679484

Riejael · January 2017

bg22 wrote: »

Here's a link to the thread, and chart I made to simply demonstrate the balance.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3679484#Comment_3679484

This is about what I suggested earlier in the thread. But your explaination is more detailed. I'd like to see it affect PVE as well. That way Light Armor tanks would be requested. I know they already exist. But I'd like to see them have a niche to fill.

idk · January 2017

No

Riejael wrote: »

I'm surprised they didn't just make Heavy armor have high resist against physical, low against magic. Then do the opposite with light armor, high resist against spells and low against physical, and then medium is inbetween, jack of all trades.

Because tanking needs to have high resist for both.

Players in heavy armor that stack for suitability should be able to survive much more but not be able to do high damage. When that is the case all is well.

The issue is when the build for suitability and have proc sets that do do good damage (because they do not scale of damage stats) then the balance is completely wrong.

olsborg · January 2017

xskinzcity wrote: »

Just make it so shuffle can only be used if you're wearing at least 5 pieces of medium armor.

This, so much this. Also, wrath passive or constitution, either of them needs to be nerfed somehow, or preferably buff light and medium armor somehow. At the moment, heavy armor has the full package and light and medium is lagging behind quite noticeably.

Riejael · January 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Because tanking needs to have high resist for both.

Newp.

In other MMOs we did tank swaps for that sort of thing. Some boss encounters might need a bit of tweaking but its doable.

DHale · January 2017

No

Fine as is, the light and medium need a buff.

Paraflex · January 2017

Other

The real problem with Heavy Armor is you get everything you want

Sustain from constitution (Black Rose Helps)
Spell resist
Physical Resist
Health
Healing recieved
Resources back from Heavy attacks

After all this you can use class skills like a Templar with Rune Focus to add minor vitality plus minor protection and shuffle for dodge chance. Let's assume you don't do anything else.

This takes 5 pieces of heavy and 1 Templar skill. Heavy Armor is loaded with all kinds of value.

This allows for all types of cancer builds with great sustain.

The last time light armor had a cancer problem was when you could shield stack 3 different shields and get 3-4 full damage rotations on a sorc. It was terrible for the game.

hassubhai · January 2017

Yes

DHale wrote: »

Fine as is, the light and medium need a buff.

Power creep tho

psychotic13 · January 2017

xskinzcity wrote: »

Just make it so shuffle can only be used if you're wearing at least 5 pieces of medium armor.

For pvp I agree, but a lot of tanks wear Tavas and that change would kill the build

Myerscod · January 2017

xskinzcity wrote: »

Just make it so shuffle can only be used if you're wearing at least 5 pieces of medium armor.

That's right, nerf pve for pvps benefit.... No thanks

hassubhai · January 2017

Yes

Myerscod wrote: »

xskinzcity wrote: »

Just make it so shuffle can only be used if you're wearing at least 5 pieces of medium armor.

That's right, nerf pve for pvps benefit.... No thanks

Not like pve id actually difficult aside vmaw, and if your able to complete that these changes have a pretty minor effect.

Spottswoode · January 2017

No

olsborg wrote: »

xskinzcity wrote: »

Just make it so shuffle can only be used if you're wearing at least 5 pieces of medium armor.

This, so much this. Also, wrath passive or constitution, either of them needs to be nerfed somehow, or preferably buff light and medium armor somehow. At the moment, heavy armor has the full package and light and medium is lagging behind quite noticeably.

I can't, for the life of me, figure out why that hasn't been changed already seeing as how pretty much everyone uses the 5/1/1 setup because of the undaunted passives. It's been a frickin year already.

bg22 wrote: »

It's a good start, but I made a thread the other day with a Rock Paper Scissors solution, which I think would kill many birds with 1 stone. My solution would open a plethora of play-styles and builds which currently are just not even remotely competitive. All whilst completely preventing any sort of FotM build.

Ok....here's the problem with applying a rock, paper, scissors template: Rock paper scissors only works because players can only use on at a time and each one has a specific counter. Applying that sort of thinking to armor means that everyone in the game can use medium armor, bows, and destro staff and kill nearly everyone who doesn't pretty easily. So what you actually do by that is enforce uniformity among builds.

By the way, that would totally destroy tanking. There are many bosses that have powerful physical and magical attacks that can't be defended against with moderate protection (medium armor in your examples) without a boatload of health and a very specific setup.

On the actual problem: Heavy armor needs to be for defense and should emphasize blocking. (Because irl heavy armor use involves bracing the thick parts of the armor toward the attack.) Heavy armor should not be giving extra resources on heavy attacks, but I am ok with the constitution perk.

Docmandu · January 2017

hassubhai wrote: »

The major issue with heavy is the lack if counter play and the fact that it allows too much.

Haven't you heard, the counter is to let the heavy dude bang on your face for 5 seconds while you do nothing. #zoslogic

psychotic13 · January 2017

Docmandu wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

The major issue with heavy is the lack if counter play and the fact that it allows too much.

Haven't you heard, the counter is to let the heavy dude bang on your face for 5 seconds while you do nothing. #zoslogic

Well it does make sense? You go on the defensive for a few seconds so they lose their wraith bonus and are not gaining resources through the constitution passive.

Don't know what your 'zoslogic' is about, use your head

IcyDeadPeople · January 2017

Riejael wrote: »

I'm surprised they didn't just make Heavy armor have high resist against physical, low against magic. Then do the opposite with light armor, high resist against spells and low against physical, and then medium is inbetween, jack of all trades.

They did, at launch. The result was people were much tankier in light armor with immovable and similar buffs up compared to heavy armor, and they did more damage, so nobody wore heavy armor.

I think this is a good thing that that heavy armor was changed to provide more spell resistance and physical resistance than light armor and medium armor. But I agree it would be nice to see perhaps a bit more of a trade off when it comes to dps. Might be interesting if light armor Concentration passive was a bit higher, and full set of medium armor provided similar armor pen buffed.

Planning a build is more fun when you have to make tough choices. Currently seems a little too easy to have extremely high physical/spell resistance and still hit very hard, at least for stamina build w/ heavy armor (haven't tried magicka heavy armor build yet).
.

hassubhai · January 2017

Yes

psychotic13 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

hassubhai wrote: »

The major issue with heavy is the lack if counter play and the fact that it allows too much.

Haven't you heard, the counter is to let the heavy dude bang on your face for 5 seconds while you do nothing. #zoslogic

Well it does make sense? You go on the defensive for a few seconds so they lose their wraith bonus and are not gaining resources through the constitution passive.

Don't know what your 'zoslogic' is about, use your head

Allowing the other player to hit you with 5 free abilities and light attacks is not counter play at all especially considering that the game should be balanced in a way where being defensive costs more than being aggressive

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Balance solution for heavy armour

Balance solution for heavy armour 38 votes