So what's the point of dodge rolling?

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

Apparently nothing that hits hard can be dodged in this game (except Incap, that can still be dodged, and quite easily).

So is there even a reason to wear medium armor anymore or should I just switch to heavy? Afterall the only thing you can do as stamina now is block. Unless it's EoTS, then you have to run for your life.

Kronos_Ice · January 2017

I mean Eternal hunt is why I dodge roll, other than that I agree.

Dodge rolling should allow you to dodge an attack, no matter what it is...

But, wearing medium armor gives you the stamina, weapon crit and weapon damage buffs so I guess its still semi viable.

Ragnaroek93 · January 2017

That's the same what I thougt. Why do medium armor builds which require to roll a lot get punished more and more? When do we make all these ults going through block and through shields as well? Thanks a lot ZOS for pushing medium armor further into gank builds, you either love this ultra dumb gank playstyle or have no clue about PvP at all.

You should just buff blocking and make vitality potions increase shield strength as well as healing, so that every meta scrub won't die anymore no matter how bad he plays.

willlienellson · January 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So is there even a reason to wear medium armor anymore

Not really. This was inevitable when they introduced battle spirit.
Nerf healing. Nerf damage. Nerf bubbles. What's left? Armor and Health.

And they've continued down that path ever since. The game is severely out of balance imo. People wearing heavy armor seem to hit 90% as hard as someone in medium armor yet they only take 25% as much damage as someone in medium armor.

They need to do SOMETHING to reintroduce risk/reward for the armor types. Heavy has all reward and no risk.

And resources are so high again that you can still dodge roll forever in HEAVY eternal hunt.

The only reason I can think of for wearing Medium armor is sneak cost and detection radius.

Rohaus · January 2017

Dodge roll + shuffle + eternal hunt is what kills it for me...

Going up against a good player that runs shuffle, dodge rolls a ton, AND is running Eternal Hunt... so annoying... I can't count the number of times I am chasing a player that tried to kill me only to see on my screen MISS MISS MISS due to obsessive dodge rolling and dodge chance. MISS MISS MISS... when I run on my Mag DK instead of my Stam DK, it brings me much joy to Fossilize these dodge rollers in order for chasers to finish them off.

I am not a fan of getting jumped by a ganker who realizes they bit off more than they could chew only to see them run away at higher speed than what a heavy armored player can run... speed (medium armor passive) + dodge roll + shuffle + eternal hunt = amazing defense!

Now if you have 10+ players chasing you... do you really think you should survive that? on the flipside, wearing full heavy armor... unless you are full tank mode, you will eventually succumb and die to the numbers.

I deal with it... whatever... medium armor users do need some kind of defense... but don't tell me that your defense when combined with the above mentioned string of defense isn't good enough.

willlienellson · January 2017

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You should just buff blocking and make vitality potions increase shield strength as well as healing, so that every meta scrub won't die anymore no matter how bad he plays.

Types of people in PvP right now:

A ) Gankers
B ) Tanks
C ) Pugs being farmed soon to quit or convert to A or B.

Tavore1138 · January 2017

Rohaus wrote: »

Dodge roll + shuffle + eternal hunt is what kills it for me...

Going up against a good player that runs shuffle, dodge rolls a ton, AND is running Eternal Hunt... so annoying... I can't count the number of times I am chasing a player that tried to kill me only to see on my screen MISS MISS MISS due to obsessive dodge rolling and dodge chance. MISS MISS MISS... when I run on my Mag DK instead of my Stam DK, it brings me much joy to Fossilize these dodge rollers in order for chasers to finish them off.

I am not a fan of getting jumped by a ganker who realizes they bit off more than they could chew only to see them run away at higher speed than what a heavy armored player can run... speed (medium armor passive) + dodge roll + shuffle + eternal hunt = amazing defense!

Now if you have 10+ players chasing you... do you really think you should survive that? on the flipside, wearing full heavy armor... unless you are full tank mode, you will eventually succumb and die to the numbers.

I deal with it... whatever... medium armor users do need some kind of defense... but don't tell me that your defense when combined with the above mentioned string of defense isn't good enough.

Yeah this was what killed it really - back in the day when CP were new people could stack a bunch of stamina, cost mitigation and regen and roll from Bleakers to Bloodmayne... they didn't do much damage but they were damn hard to hit and could escape a lot of situations.

Most players just did what we do with streaky sorcs... let 'em run around doing nothing in particular while we go and attack an actual keep or something but other got very annoyed that people wouldn't just stand still and take a beating and so much moaning ensued.

ZOS took a long hard look and, as always, ignored any smallish tweaks they could have tried and basically nerfed it with Thor's mighty hammer and took away stamina regen when blocking in the same patch just to make it as easy as possible for people to kill medium armour users..

BigES · January 2017

Between line of sight, Shuffle, roll dodging, Lingering Heal potions with Major Vitality - some people were flat out unkillable in PvP. I've seen a group 20 people chase around a single dodge roll monkey. Eventually, he'll die to AoE damage, but at that point, he's ran an entire group of people out of 50% of their resources.

I'm happy for the change.

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

BigES wrote: »

Between line of sight, Shuffle, roll dodging, Lingering Heal potions with Major Vitality - some people were flat out unkillable in PvP. I've seen a group 20 people chase around a single dodge roll monkey. Eventually, he'll die to AoE damage, but at that point, he's ran an entire group of people out of 50% of their resources.

I'm happy for the change.

Sounds like a group of idiots. For one, there's already an extensive list of abilities that can't be dodged. Secondly, anyone with shards, streak, Mass Hysteria, or fossilize would have stopped that player from dodging immediately. ZOS is just eliminating stamina, and skill from the game.

Sugaroverdose · January 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sounds like a group of idiots. For one, there's already an extensive list of abilities that can't be dodged. Secondly, anyone with shards, streak, Mass Hysteria, or fossilize would have stopped that player from dodging immediately. ZOS is just eliminating stamina, and skill from the game.

Yeah, he cannot CC break and major evasion stop procs while you cc'ed, oh wait...
As magdk i'd say L2P, dodging still OP.

Rohaus · January 2017

I would actually prefer a change... it would require some testing but I think a good compromise would be the following:

Evasion and its morphs no longer give dodge chance. Instead, root and slow immunity with duration based on how many pieces of medium armor you are wearing... say, 1 second for each piece worn. Something would need to be done with each morph to make both appealing depending on the scenario. Perhaps, receive greater appropriate stam regen while Evasion is active. I mean, let's be honest... roots and slows are the dumbest form of CC in this game... especially since there is now associated CD. So this would be both a nerf and a buff to Evasion in general.

My frustration is just the hitting aspect... if you dodge my attack by dodge rolling, that's fine... that is your defense... but Evasion on top of dodge roll is just too much.

Honestly, it is NB gankers that are built appropriately that are truly the most annoying. Cloak + Dodge roll + speed boost + Eternal hunt = super duper defense. I do understand... NB's are squishy!!!

I often reflect on the vanilla days in WoW... I played a Rogue... if I revealed myself... I had better be able to kill my target else I was good as dead... by contrast, ESO Nightblades can reset fights non stop.

Waffennacht · January 2017

You can still dodge frags ;(

Elyu · January 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You should just buff blocking and make vitality potions increase shield strength as well as healing, so that every meta scrub won't die anymore no matter how bad he plays.

Types of people in PvP right now:

A ) Gankers
B ) Tanks
C ) Pugs being farmed soon to quit or convert to A or B.

@willlienellson to be fair I have characters that fit both A and B, but my mag sorc (when not dying to A) is a rather fine zergbuster.

willlienellson · January 2017

Rohaus wrote: »

Honestly, it is NB gankers that are built appropriately that are truly the most annoying. Cloak + Dodge roll + speed boost + Eternal hunt = super duper defense. I do understand... NB's are squishy!!!

Make sure you aren't reaching conclusions based on a few specific CHEATERS that exist in the game.
You should realize there are programs that allow them to simply and literally "toggle" on/off infinite dodge roll, dodge chance etc.
Have you ever noticed how you'll be fighting someone and they dodge about 20% of attacks until you get them in execute range and then suddenly they dodge 90% of attacks for the rest of the fight? That's not a coincidence.

One problem with this game is that so much of our experience is colored by cheaters that we begin calling for nerfs to classes and skills based on those experiences.

I've had some long fights against a few specific players (who I can't name, but I can tell you their names sound like Japanese cars) with friends and generated tons of data which we compared to reach the conclusion there was no mathematical way for their builds to exist without cheating. We've collectively dumped many hours into this.

It's not just dodge chance. It's high dodge chance combined with high mitigation in excess of heavy armor, combined with damage output in excess of medium armor, combined with infinite resources.
Their "builds"have effectively 4 OP elements and we can't find any way to reproduce more than 2 at a time.

And people will say, "No, there is no cheating in ESO", which is what they've said since launch as it's exposed over and over again.
Some folks are blissfully ignorant and some are purposefully obfuscating to protect their actions, but the evidence is all over the internet and always has been.

There has always been cheating in ESO, but it took a dramatic uptick when the game became Buy-2-Play. You can go onto cheater/hacker forums and read about how prior to that very few were asking for cheat tools and the people who support them thought the game "wasn't worth the effort" and then after B2P they started producing the tools/hacks/debuggers.

The PvP in this game will NEVER be balanced until Zos fixes 2 things:
1) Crack down on cheaters so we actually know what is OP and what isn't, so our experiences are based on the same variables.
2) Balance PvP and PvE independently from each other.

This latest "balance patch" wasn't about balancing players with each other. It was about balancing high DPS players against NPC monsters. lol

willlienellson · January 2017

delete

willlienellson · January 2017

delete

SwaminoNowlino · January 2017

BigES wrote: »

Between line of sight, Shuffle, roll dodging, Lingering Heal potions with Major Vitality - some people were flat out unkillable in PvP. I've seen a group 20 people chase around a single dodge roll monkey. Eventually, he'll die to AoE damage, but at that point, he's ran an entire group of people out of 50% of their resources.

I'm happy for the change.

Strider will literally complain about anything that is not a buff to stamina nightblade, so there's little point in trying to have a constructive conversation. Pretty sure he/she was still arguing that incap needed a damage buff and a cost decrease haha.

You can still dodge probably 75% of damage in this game. The stuff they fixed makes sense. Why should biting jabs, a conical aoe, be dodgable? Why should you be able to stand in the face of a DK when they leap and dodge the entirety of an aoe ultimate? You can still dodge Dawnbreaker, so count your blessings there I guess. We are up to what, maybe 10 abilities, mostly ultimates, that are undodgable? So this QQ thread is pretty weak.

Ragnaroek93 · January 2017

Rohaus wrote: »

Dodge roll + shuffle + eternal hunt is what kills it for me...

Going up against a good player that runs shuffle, dodge rolls a ton, AND is running Eternal Hunt... so annoying... I can't count the number of times I am chasing a player that tried to kill me only to see on my screen MISS MISS MISS due to obsessive dodge rolling and dodge chance. MISS MISS MISS... when I run on my Mag DK instead of my Stam DK, it brings me much joy to Fossilize these dodge rollers in order for chasers to finish them off.

I am not a fan of getting jumped by a ganker who realizes they bit off more than they could chew only to see them run away at higher speed than what a heavy armored player can run... speed (medium armor passive) + dodge roll + shuffle + eternal hunt = amazing defense!

Now if you have 10+ players chasing you... do you really think you should survive that? on the flipside, wearing full heavy armor... unless you are full tank mode, you will eventually succumb and die to the numbers.

I deal with it... whatever... medium armor users do need some kind of defense... but don't tell me that your defense when combined with the above mentioned string of defense isn't good enough.

But look, these builds only deal damage because of proc sets which will get nerfed. They will be annoying to catch, but that's pretty much everything.
It's not even about nightblades (nightblades are actually the best class for medium armor in my opinion) it's more about the state of medium armor in general. They heavily rely on dodgerolling because it's part of their defense while more and more skills get changed to ignore dodges at all. This will be as stupid as getting light attacked from a shieldbreaker hero as a magicka sorc.

SanTii.92 · January 2017

Are you kidding? Roll dodge is increadibly powerful as it is now, and they are making just a couple of skills bypassing it, can you be this obnoxious?

willlienellson · January 2017

Stam NB here saying:
Nerf Dodge into the ground!

GreenSoup2HoT · January 2017

As a medium armor wearer, i hardly dodge roll. I only do when i cannot cloak.

SodanTok · January 2017

If you dodge too much, other people hate it. If you dont dodge a lot, you are probably dead. But you can always wear heavy armor and stop dodging and dying all together. Therefore everyone is happier. Until the hivemind find other things to be annoyed about, because lets be clear, not killing enemy will be always annoying.

Artemiisia · January 2017

I roll dodge on my bow bar, so I can run faster

Strider_Roshin · January 2017

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Between line of sight, Shuffle, roll dodging, Lingering Heal potions with Major Vitality - some people were flat out unkillable in PvP. I've seen a group 20 people chase around a single dodge roll monkey. Eventually, he'll die to AoE damage, but at that point, he's ran an entire group of people out of 50% of their resources.

I'm happy for the change.

Strider will literally complain about anything that is not a buff to stamina nightblade, so there's little point in trying to have a constructive conversation. Pretty sure he/she was still arguing that incap needed a damage buff and a cost decrease haha.

You can still dodge probably 75% of damage in this game. The stuff they fixed makes sense. Why should biting jabs, a conical aoe, be dodgable? Why should you be able to stand in the face of a DK when they leap and dodge the entirety of an aoe ultimate? You can still dodge Dawnbreaker, so count your blessings there I guess. We are up to what, maybe 10 abilities, mostly ultimates, that are undodgable? So this QQ thread is pretty weak.

Don't presume to know me, wall licker.

Ajaxduo · January 2017

Tbh they should make roll dodging have a separate resource or a cool down. But that's just me.

Riggsy · January 2017

lol the only medium armor wearers in this thread are nbs, that tells you everything you need to know about how broken it is as a pvp option. I'd love to go back to wearing medium in pvp as a dk but those days are long gone...