Joy_Division wrote: »

How exactly would you "back up" tank?

Does that mean wait for the actual tank to die and then step in to fulfill the role? It would be a lot more efficient for you to DPS and take the few seconds to actually rez the tank. The only time a "back up" tank maybe needed in Hel Ra is if your group was going to do hard mode, but if they are looking for a tank, that isn't happening.

Trials tanking is night and day compared to dungeon tanking. Dungeons don't require tanks, they require someone to press taunt and hold down block every now and then. That's a huge difference. If you bring a PvP build and try to tank the Warrior, you are going to get Rekt and just wind up wasting people's time. I've seen the happen time after time. Also, efficient trial tanking is not about adding a few thousand DPS, it's about contributing to the group. You may think the 20K blazing shield is helping, but there aren't Warhorns going out and you are monopolizing the healer's time and resources constantly having to upkeep a tank that tries to deal damage.

Koensol wrote: »

souravami wrote: »

So you can hold aggro, deal damage and survive with your blazing tank. Right?
What do you bring in form of group support with your 78k health tank? Nothing. In end game pve tank's main role is to hold taunt and bring huge amount of group utility. Templar or Nb tanks lack that group utility, that's why 99% of end game tanks are dk.

I wouldn't say a templar tank brings no group utility. Let me sum up what a templar tank brings to a group:
- Ability to heal both themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. I have saved my group more than once with this.
- Ability to put both minor+major fracture and minor+major breach on a target. Only class able to do this.
- Providing minor sorcery to the group.
- Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves.
- AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Of course you will be using mostly war horn, but a well placed Nova can still help a lot.

I wouldn't say that is bad in terms of group utility. Aside from generally being very tanky, you provide nice bonusses to dps, while also being able to heal and add to the groups survivability. And when they have a ton of mobs on them, they can also deal ok damage for a tank with blazing shield (if they have the health).

Brrrofski wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

I hate that bubble tanks are a thing. Nothing personal, but it's the least skilled playstyle I've ever seen in any game I think. Stack health, stack magica regen, put down your rune, shield, shield, shield, shield, bat swarm.

Really irritates me when they run around PvP acting like they're good. A 4 year old could run that build and do well.

I made one of these types of builds recently and put it to science! in normal dungeons--but mainly in PvP. With a good group behind you, you can be pretty tanky. They have good uses in pushing the enemy back when they are in open field Cyrodiil. Which may not seem important, but I have used my tank to push reds off of the bridge. They get so focused on DPSing me that yellows behind me can hide behind my meat shield and give them room to not be DPS'ed down themselves. So I don't think they're completely brainless, but I definitely see your point of view.

I would like to refine his build for more group play though. Same goes for my DK tank.

Anyone with half a brain ignores a blazing shield build. Say it all about a build if you can only kill morons with it.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

souravami wrote: »

So you can hold aggro, deal damage and survive with your blazing tank. Right?
What do you bring in form of group support with your 78k health tank? Nothing. In end game pve tank's main role is to hold taunt and bring huge amount of group utility. Templar or Nb tanks lack that group utility, that's why 99% of end game tanks are dk.

I wouldn't say a templar tank brings no group utility. Let me sum up what a templar tank brings to a group:
- Ability to heal both themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. I have saved my group more than once with this.
- Ability to put both minor+major fracture and minor+major breach on a target. Only class able to do this.
- Providing minor sorcery to the group.
- Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves.
- AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Of course you will be using mostly war horn, but a well placed Nova can still help a lot.

I wouldn't say that is bad in terms of group utility. Aside from generally being very tanky, you provide nice bonusses to dps, while also being able to heal and add to the groups survivability. And when they have a ton of mobs on them, they can also deal ok damage for a tank with blazing shield (if they have the health).

Finally someone talking sense

• Ability to heal themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. Nope, with everything stacked into health your magicka pool and spell crit simply aren't good enough for this. Any heals you provide will be lackluster. You may be able to help out a little with the healing, but if healers go down you won't be capable of saving the group.
• Ability to put both minor & major fracture and minor & major breach on a target. Nope, with everything stacked into health your stamina pool simply isn't big enough for you to use Power of the Light and Pierce Armour and still have enough stamina to do all the blocking you need to do.
• Providing Minor Sorcery to the group. Well OK, yeah, that's one that you can do even with a blazplar build. But any other templars in the 12-man group doing other roles will also be providing it anyway, so it's not really a selling point for a blazplar tank.
• Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves. Again, yeah, even a blazplar tank can do this one. The cleanse is nice, but the healing portion of it will again be lackluster at best because of your build's lack of a decent magicka pool and spell crit. A decent magicka templar tank build will do this much much better than you.
• AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Sure, you can use a Nova sometimes, but a blazplar is effectively only using a Nova for the damage reduction, because the actual damage it does is so much lower than the Nova of any other templar. And at that point, why would the Nova even be in the team's Nova rotation? The leader of the trial group is much more likely to have you use Warhorn exclusively, while the other templars in the group are on Nova duty.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

A backup tank= A competant tank that could do the job of maintaining aggro if I'm not able. Is this rocket science? A blazplars strenghth is with mobs. A Blazplar can do a great deal of dps when surrounded by aggro'd mobs. My point is that If the blazplar cannot tank the boss there is still value to having one in the team if there is a full on tank on the boss. Hence why asked for a backup tank. Although I was not confident tanking it on my own for the first time doing it there was still potential value of being in the team.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

souravami wrote: »

So you can hold aggro, deal damage and survive with your blazing tank. Right?
What do you bring in form of group support with your 78k health tank? Nothing. In end game pve tank's main role is to hold taunt and bring huge amount of group utility. Templar or Nb tanks lack that group utility, that's why 99% of end game tanks are dk.

I wouldn't say a templar tank brings no group utility. Let me sum up what a templar tank brings to a group:
- Ability to heal both themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. I have saved my group more than once with this.
- Ability to put both minor+major fracture and minor+major breach on a target. Only class able to do this.
- Providing minor sorcery to the group.
- Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves.
- AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Of course you will be using mostly war horn, but a well placed Nova can still help a lot.

I wouldn't say that is bad in terms of group utility. Aside from generally being very tanky, you provide nice bonusses to dps, while also being able to heal and add to the groups survivability. And when they have a ton of mobs on them, they can also deal ok damage for a tank with blazing shield (if they have the health).

Finally someone talking sense

You're really not going to be doing much in the way of those things as a blazplar in a vet trial though. A solid trials build templar will do those things, but a blazplar has issues doing them. Let's look at them one by one.

• Ability to heal themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. Nope, with everything stacked into health your magicka pool and spell crit simply aren't good enough for this. Any heals you provide will be lackluster. You may be able to help out a little with the healing, but if healers go down you won't be capable of saving the group.
• Ability to put both minor & major fracture and minor & major breach on a target. Nope, with everything stacked into health your stamina pool simply isn't big enough for you to use Power of the Light and Pierce Armour and still have enough stamina to do all the blocking you need to do.
• Providing Minor Sorcery to the group. Well OK, yeah, that's one that you can do even with a blazplar build. But any other templars in the 12-man group doing other roles will also be providing it anyway, so it's not really a selling point for a blazplar tank.
• Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves. Again, yeah, even a blazplar tank can do this one. The cleanse is nice, but the healing portion of it will again be lackluster at best because of your build's lack of a decent magicka pool and spell crit. A decent magicka templar tank build will do this much much better than you.
• AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Sure, you can use a Nova sometimes, but a blazplar is effectively only using a Nova for the damage reduction, because the actual damage it does is so much lower than the Nova of any other templar. And at that point, why would the Nova even be in the team's Nova rotation? The leader of the trial group is much more likely to have you use Warhorn exclusively, while the other templars in the group are on Nova duty.

So @Koensol is correct that a templar tank can bring a decent amount of group utility, but a blazplar tank is uniquely poorly suited to bringing that templar utility.

Garbage! Im a tank, why should I be healing anyone in a group trial of 12 players? Shouldn't that be the healers job?

UrQuan wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

souravami wrote: »

So you can hold aggro, deal damage and survive with your blazing tank. Right?
What do you bring in form of group support with your 78k health tank? Nothing. In end game pve tank's main role is to hold taunt and bring huge amount of group utility. Templar or Nb tanks lack that group utility, that's why 99% of end game tanks are dk.

I wouldn't say a templar tank brings no group utility. Let me sum up what a templar tank brings to a group:
- Ability to heal both themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. I have saved my group more than once with this.
- Ability to put both minor+major fracture and minor+major breach on a target. Only class able to do this.
- Providing minor sorcery to the group.
- Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves.
- AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Of course you will be using mostly war horn, but a well placed Nova can still help a lot.

I wouldn't say that is bad in terms of group utility. Aside from generally being very tanky, you provide nice bonusses to dps, while also being able to heal and add to the groups survivability. And when they have a ton of mobs on them, they can also deal ok damage for a tank with blazing shield (if they have the health).

Finally someone talking sense

You're really not going to be doing much in the way of those things as a blazplar in a vet trial though. A solid trials build templar will do those things, but a blazplar has issues doing them. Let's look at them one by one.

• Ability to heal themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. Nope, with everything stacked into health your magicka pool and spell crit simply aren't good enough for this. Any heals you provide will be lackluster. You may be able to help out a little with the healing, but if healers go down you won't be capable of saving the group.
• Ability to put both minor & major fracture and minor & major breach on a target. Nope, with everything stacked into health your stamina pool simply isn't big enough for you to use Power of the Light and Pierce Armour and still have enough stamina to do all the blocking you need to do.
• Providing Minor Sorcery to the group. Well OK, yeah, that's one that you can do even with a blazplar build. But any other templars in the 12-man group doing other roles will also be providing it anyway, so it's not really a selling point for a blazplar tank.
• Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves. Again, yeah, even a blazplar tank can do this one. The cleanse is nice, but the healing portion of it will again be lackluster at best because of your build's lack of a decent magicka pool and spell crit. A decent magicka templar tank build will do this much much better than you.
• AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Sure, you can use a Nova sometimes, but a blazplar is effectively only using a Nova for the damage reduction, because the actual damage it does is so much lower than the Nova of any other templar. And at that point, why would the Nova even be in the team's Nova rotation? The leader of the trial group is much more likely to have you use Warhorn exclusively, while the other templars in the group are on Nova duty.

So @Koensol is correct that a templar tank can bring a decent amount of group utility, but a blazplar tank is uniquely poorly suited to bringing that templar utility.

Garbage! Im a tank, why should I be healing anyone in a group trial of 12 players? Shouldn't that be the healers job?

*facepalm*

Seriously? You replied to a post listing all of those things as utility that a templar tank brings with this:

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Finally someone talking sense

And now you're saying that you shouldn't be bringing that utility as a tank? Flip-flop much?

The bottom line is that a trials tank needs to bring a significant amount of group utility. A blazplar build is terrible at that. You can tank plenty of other stuff fine with a blazplar, but it just falls short in vet trials.

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

souravami wrote: »

So you can hold aggro, deal damage and survive with your blazing tank. Right?
What do you bring in form of group support with your 78k health tank? Nothing. In end game pve tank's main role is to hold taunt and bring huge amount of group utility. Templar or Nb tanks lack that group utility, that's why 99% of end game tanks are dk.

I wouldn't say a templar tank brings no group utility. Let me sum up what a templar tank brings to a group:
- Ability to heal both themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. I have saved my group more than once with this.
- Ability to put both minor+major fracture and minor+major breach on a target. Only class able to do this.
- Providing minor sorcery to the group.
- Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves.
- AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Of course you will be using mostly war horn, but a well placed Nova can still help a lot.

I wouldn't say that is bad in terms of group utility. Aside from generally being very tanky, you provide nice bonusses to dps, while also being able to heal and add to the groups survivability. And when they have a ton of mobs on them, they can also deal ok damage for a tank with blazing shield (if they have the health).

Finally someone talking sense

You're really not going to be doing much in the way of those things as a blazplar in a vet trial though. A solid trials build templar will do those things, but a blazplar has issues doing them. Let's look at them one by one.

• Ability to heal themselves and group members for a considerable amount when needed. Nope, with everything stacked into health your magicka pool and spell crit simply aren't good enough for this. Any heals you provide will be lackluster. You may be able to help out a little with the healing, but if healers go down you won't be capable of saving the group.
• Ability to put both minor & major fracture and minor & major breach on a target. Nope, with everything stacked into health your stamina pool simply isn't big enough for you to use Power of the Light and Pierce Armour and still have enough stamina to do all the blocking you need to do.
• Providing Minor Sorcery to the group. Well OK, yeah, that's one that you can do even with a blazplar build. But any other templars in the 12-man group doing other roles will also be providing it anyway, so it's not really a selling point for a blazplar tank.
• Providing group members an extra opportunity to cleanse themselves. Again, yeah, even a blazplar tank can do this one. The cleanse is nice, but the healing portion of it will again be lackluster at best because of your build's lack of a decent magicka pool and spell crit. A decent magicka templar tank build will do this much much better than you.
• AoE damage reduction on multiple ultimates. Sure, you can use a Nova sometimes, but a blazplar is effectively only using a Nova for the damage reduction, because the actual damage it does is so much lower than the Nova of any other templar. And at that point, why would the Nova even be in the team's Nova rotation? The leader of the trial group is much more likely to have you use Warhorn exclusively, while the other templars in the group are on Nova duty.

So @Koensol is correct that a templar tank can bring a decent amount of group utility, but a blazplar tank is uniquely poorly suited to bringing that templar utility.

Garbage! Im a tank, why should I be healing anyone in a group trial of 12 players? Shouldn't that be the healers job?

*facepalm*

Seriously? You replied to a post listing all of those things as utility that a templar tank brings with this:

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Finally someone talking sense

And now you're saying that you shouldn't be bringing that utility as a tank? Flip-flop much?

The bottom line is that a trials tank needs to bring a significant amount of group utility. A blazplar build is terrible at that. You can tank plenty of other stuff fine with a blazplar, but it just falls short in vet trials.

Barring group healing i called it Garbage because of the assumption that it can't be done. But like I said earlier no competent group will take a blazpler tank for me to even give it a try. I'm not on this game 24/7 I'm a casual player. I asked the question in the original thread.. are PVERS skeptical of the value of blazpler tanks in group content? Got a pretty resounding YES.

@WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Most vet trial runners only want a Stam DK running Tava, Ebon, Bloodspawn, Warhorn and the Hist Bark exploit.

Even if your build could tank it, it isn't the Meta.

Soriana wrote: »

Dichotomy much? Take a weekend, put a group together, make a video and show us. If you are so certain, then take the steps necessary to make it happen instead of complaining that no one will give you the opportunity. Make your own opportunity to prove everyone wrong.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Most vet trial runners only want a Stam DK running Tava, Ebon, Bloodspawn, Warhorn and the Hist Bark exploit.

Even if your build could tank it, it isn't the Meta.

What exploit are you talking about?
There is an exploit involving Hist Bark set but Tava/Bloodspawn is legit.

Soriana wrote: »

Dichotomy much? Take a weekend, put a group together, make a video and show us. If you are so certain, then take the steps necessary to make it happen instead of complaining that no one will give you the opportunity. Make your own opportunity to prove everyone wrong.

Probably the best advice itt.