Raising the floor and lowering the ceiling

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

I'm not going to throw a fit about ZOS wanting to dumb things down for new players. I do think they are going about it in an incredibly poor way.

Stats for Beginners
For new players, especially those unfamiliar with MMOs who are attracted by TES name, how damage/healing/mitigation in this game is calculated is pretty complicated. I played for over a year before understanding at all where my damage came from (max stat+wd/sd), and I only really understood after many youtube videos. I shouldn't have to go to youtube for the basic functionality of a game. It's like scaling for damage and healing abilities is a secret or something, and not all of it is intuitive, like whether a destro skill uses wd or sd. Things like this needs to be explained for beginners if you want to close the gap they have with veterans of the game because it can be hard to understand at first how one morph of a skill scales off of wd and max stam while the other scales off sd and max mag. Something could be included in the tutorial or make an extended optional tutorial to explain some of this.

Soft Caps
Bring back soft caps. It significantly closes the gap between new and veteran players because it lowers the ceiling. New players who don't understand anything will always be head and shoulders below anyone who has been around a while and will have a rough time no matter what. Once you begin to understand things though, the difference between someone who has perfected their build and rotation and someone with a good build who is still learning won't be as large as it is now. This wouldn't make much difference in the ability to complete, say, most group dungeons. But the difference in skill becomes clear in DLC dungeons and trials. This would make balancing easier as you would be able to balance the game in a way that most people can complete most content with decent gear, and the difference in skill and min/maxing really comes into play more with end game content. It helps to prevent builds that lead to imbalance like bs templars stacking 60k health and heavy armor builds who stack wd and max stam without regen. We could give sorcs their shield duration back since you wouldn't be able to stack 50k magicka. And the list goes on. Players can focus on getting better in PVP or with their PVE rotation rather than having to also learn how to optimally build to find the absolute best balance between max stats, wd/sd, regen, etc and then grind for that gear in order to be semi competitive. This also makes gear less important, so while finding the best end game gear will be important for min/maxers in PVP and trials, it is not the be all and end all for everyone.

Gear Grind
... is brutal. If you want to close the gap between the ceiling and the floor then players need to be able to find the gear they are looking for in a reasonable amount of time. RNG is miserable for dropped sets and weapons, both because of huge loot tables and trait imbalance. Then again if soft caps were in place then gear would be less important.

Champion System
Needs to be reworked. This PTS patch is a perfect example of what this system leads too. Nerfs being handed out left and right due to the power creep which is in large part due to the champion system. Honestly I am not super experienced with MMOs so I don't have a great alternative and would love to hear some ideas. That said, I have been around long enough that I can tell you the champion system is a huge contributor to this floor/ceiling gap that ZOS wants to close.

I don't necessarily completely agree with the desire to close this floor/ceiling gap, as I am all about rewarding skilled play. However @ZOS_RichLambert if this really is your goal then here is a great place to start.

Edit: forgot resistances and damage mitigation in the first paragraph. To this day I still do not really understand how much mitigation a certain amount of resistance provides. I know roughly where resistances hard cap and how much you typically get on light/med/heavy builds but that's about it, don't know what the conversion is. Also just thought about weapon and spell crit, why the weird numbers on set, buff, and skill bonuses for those? I know roughly what they equate to since I've seen them enough but why can't there be a straightforward percentage?

K4RMA · January 2017

^^ I agree

If ZOS really wants to go ahead with these changes, I feel that doing it like the way you described will definitely be the right way to go about it.

Solariken · January 2017

Better tooltip descriptions are needed for sure. I hate soft caps (at least the version we had before), but I think they should change all CP increments to be .1% so that each CP star maxes out at 10% total instead of 25%. The power gain in the CP system is obscene.

SublimeSparo · January 2017

This game needs a proper in game tutorial.
A tanking healing and dd training school for example

Anhedonie · January 2017

Soft caps need to make a come back. But this time they have to think it through.
It was a mess back then.

AMadAussie · January 2017

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Soft Caps

All your suggestions are great, especially this one. Soft caps would make balancing the game much more straight forward, no question about it. Most of the arguments against them come from salty min-maxers who are too blind/stupid/stubborn/QQ to see or admit that min-maxing is still present with soft caps, it's just less severe than it is without them.

There is also a massive misconception in this game that stats=skill. Obviously this is not true but a lot of min-maxers would have you believe it. Soft caps level the playing field in regards to stats so that actual skill is involved in order to win.

paulsimonps · January 2017

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Edit: forgot resistances and damage mitigation in the first paragraph. To this day I still do not really understand how much mitigation a certain amount of resistance provides. I know roughly where resistances hard cap and how much you typically get on light/med/heavy builds but that's about it, don't know what the conversion is. Also just thought about weapon and spell crit, why the weird numbers on set, buff, and skill bonuses for those? I know roughly what they equate to since I've seen them enough but why can't there be a straightforward percentage?

At CP 160 players get a Resistance hardcap at 33,100 and its 662 per % mitigated which means cap is 50%

Crit chance numbers is roughly 219 per crit chance % in terms of flat numbers on set bonuses and such.

Not tested fully on mobs but they either have 9100 resistance(overworld) or 18,200(trials and dungeons), with the exception of vMSA which is not uniform at all, and their Resistance per % mitigated which is what I am still not 100% on is 500 per % mitigated.

hassubhai · January 2017

Honestly i think zos has completely lost the plot at this point.

TheShadowScout · January 2017

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Stats for Beginners

...are fine. I mean, really... this is the most basic thing in any game. It is already as simple as can be - magica and spell damage does into your spell attacks (aka, magica-fuelled abilities), stamina and weapon damage go into your physical attacks (aka, all stamina fuelled abilities), and ultimates take the best of either.
I figured that one out my first time looking at a character sheet... it really needs no special instructions.

Personally I think the developers should hide all the number crunching from the players anyhow. Not feed the min/maxxers, but only give the most vague descriptions, and let people focus on the game instead on the last hanf percentage point of super-effectiveness. But I guess that is because I am a roleplayer, and have a very low opinion of those who are only concerned with their epeening "I have the best DPS evah!"...

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Soft Caps

Right you are.
When the game changed to make "all points in one stat" builds the masters in cyrodil, I was very sad. Giomme soft caps, gimme diminishing gains for attributes, make balanced builds great again!

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Gear Grind

Is not that much of an issue anymore. Unless someone wants to jump into PvP and be competetive right away...

These days, once you reach your 160 CP and are thus leave "throwaway sets" behind, you have it easy. So many cadwells questing rewards will start you out on some decent enough sets, and guild stores are full of more pieces at usually reasonable prices...

Sure, the really nifty stuff still takes a brutal grind. So? You think everyone should just be handed the best stuff?

The one thing that I would want to see to migrate vexation is some way for master crafters to change traits. For when you finally get a drop of some really hard to get thingie... with a "training" trait. I am certain many here have had that "Why, in oblivions name! Whyyyyyyy!!!" moment...

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Champion System

Is fine, really. Just needs more catchup, that's all... they really could start giving out bundles of CP for some things at this stage. Getting through mainstory - have some CP. Finishing cadwells - have some more CP. et cetera. And then scale the rewards according to how much a account already has... no CP, get full reward; already been grinding to ¼ cap - get half reward; already at ½ cap - get ¼ reward; over ¾ cap, get no reward. Something like that...
Or not and let people spend the time and effort to grab the CP one by one. Not that its that hard with the catchup mechanic and cadwells to fuel you expees, then dailies to grab more...

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

@TheShadowScout we just disagree about stats and tooltips I guess. I do not think they are presented as clear and intuitively as they could be. I also think the combat mechanics in this game promote competitive play in both PVE and PVP so while I understand that isn't for everyone, I think there is a place for it and it is an important segment of the community.

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Sure, the really nifty stuff still takes a brutal grind. So? You think everyone should just be handed the best stuff?

I think the issue is that "the really nifty stuff" is so important to have in order to be competitive. Gear is SO important for anyone trying to be semi competitive in both PVE and PVP. Plus, veteran players are the ones who are going to grind for the best gear, while new players are going to be running around with easily obtainable or crafted sets, significantly gimping themselves before they even step into PVP or any dungeon/trial. This just further widens this gap rich was talking about in his explanation for update 13 changes.

I agree some gear should be rare and hard to obtain, and should be rewarding. Personally I think this should be gated by difficulty and not RNG. Either way though, while I think said gear should give players an advantage over players with more easily obtainable gear, I don't think the advantage should be as big as it currently is now. This plays back into soft caps of course. The best end game gear should make a difference on leaderboards and give a slight edge in PVP, but should not make or break builds like it does now, preventing you from completing content outside of vet trials or turning you into fodder for optimally gear PVPers regardless of skill. In the current state, having the best gear is just as important if not more so than having a great rotation or skillful play in PVP.

If you fixed these things then I would have much less of a problem with the gear grind. This also includes trait imbalance, as some traits (looking at you sharpened) are absolutely necessary. New players get killed because of the importance of difficult to obtain gear, widening the gap between them and experienced players.

TheShadowScout · January 2017

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

I agree some gear should be rare and hard to obtain, and should be rewarding. Personally I think this should be gated by difficulty and not RNG. Either way though, while I think said gear should give players an advantage over players with more easily obtainable gear, I don't think the advantage should be as big as it currently is now. This plays back into soft caps of course. The best end game gear should make a difference on leaderboards and give a slight edge in PVP, but should not make or break builds like it does now, preventing you from completing content outside of vet trials or turning you into fodder for optimally gear PVPers regardless of skill. In the current state, having the best gear is just as important if not more so than having a great rotation or skillful play in PVP.

If you fixed these things then I would have much less of a problem with the gear grind. This also includes trait imbalance, as some traits (looking at you sharpened) are absolutely necessary. New players get killed because of the importance of difficult to obtain gear, widening the gap between them and experienced players.

That we can agree on.

What i don't like is how the power keeps scissoring... abnd the gap keeps getting wider.

The good players get the good gear which makes then better amd the not so good players have it much, much harder to get the good gear, either because in PvE they are the redheaded stepchildren doe to not matching up to the masterslayers super-effectiveness, and thus are dropped from PUGS looking to speedrun stuff, and in PvP simply because they have a much harder time killing the good players.

Still doable though. Having great guildmates who'll bear up with a casual player will help in PvE. And in PvP you can always beat the good players quality with qnantity... even if sometimes it takes half a dozend casual players to beat one of the good ones.

If the underdogs got better rewards for the fewe times they DID win after their struggle, and the top players got lesser rewards for stuff they can easily breeze through at their skill level...
That would be something I'd love to see... like a catchup mechanic for gear grind? But not gonna hold my breath.

Also, RNG is evil. Evil I say! And I am not just saiyng that because my luck often is somewhere between bad and abyssal... (like taking sixteen tries to make a 25% chance...)

Dev · January 2017

Sorry, the soft caps and lowering the effectiveness of the char will not work the way you want.

Currently we are at level 'x' of the power creep. Everyone is in the same boat because their stats weigh the same across the 'strong' and 'weak' chars. Reducing the output, so that we are at an 'X -5' level will not change the gap between 'strong' and 'weak'. The strong will put out weaker numbers, but so would the weak. There is no fundamental shift that brings the gap closer, so it is a meaningless nerf.

zuto40 · January 2017

lets raise the roof and lower the floor, i dont even want there to be any tutorial, dont show if an ability uses magic or stam, infact remove those bars entirely, make people guess how much they have, and make the gear grind even worse, 1/100000 chance for a good drop, give the people who are grand overlords in pvp new gear that drastically makes them overpowered and the elitists who have completed hardmode vmol super op pve gear that makes all mobs die instantly, this game is too casual friendly, make it so if you die once your character is gone forever unless your ressed

Rohamad_Ali · January 2017

This is what old players feel like when you lower the ceiling and raise the floor .

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

Dev wrote: »

Sorry, the soft caps and lowering the effectiveness of the char will not work the way you want.

Currently we are at level 'x' of the power creep. Everyone is in the same boat because their stats weigh the same across the 'strong' and 'weak' chars. Reducing the output, so that we are at an 'X -5' level will not change the gap between 'strong' and 'weak'. The strong will put out weaker numbers, but so would the weak. There is no fundamental shift that brings the gap closer, so it is a meaningless nerf.

I don't think this is right. The strong know to stack what stats they want, making them even stronger compared to weaker players who don't have the gear or knowledge to do the same. These strong players couldn't do so as effectively with soft caps in place, and weaker players wouldn't get hit with soft caps since they're at or below them anyway. Aside from closing the gap, soft caps also would make balancing easier to control. It'd be much easier to balance sets and skills when you don't have to account for how hard the guy with 50k max magicka or 5k weapon damage hits.

So no, soft caps isn't a "meaningless nerf" and certainly not a "nerf" that affects everyone the same as you would suggest.

@Rohamad_Ali haha yea I get that. As I said, I don't necessarily agree with it but if that's the direction this game is going to head there are better ways of doing it than what is currently happening in PTS.

Rohamad_Ali · January 2017

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

Dev wrote: »

Sorry, the soft caps and lowering the effectiveness of the char will not work the way you want.

Currently we are at level 'x' of the power creep. Everyone is in the same boat because their stats weigh the same across the 'strong' and 'weak' chars. Reducing the output, so that we are at an 'X -5' level will not change the gap between 'strong' and 'weak'. The strong will put out weaker numbers, but so would the weak. There is no fundamental shift that brings the gap closer, so it is a meaningless nerf.

I don't think this is right. The strong know to stack what stats they want, making them even stronger compared to weaker players who don't have the gear or knowledge to do the same. These strong players couldn't do so as effectively with soft caps in place, and weaker players wouldn't get hit with soft caps since they're at or below them anyway. Aside from closing the gap, soft caps also would make balancing easier to control. It'd be much easier to balance sets and skills when you don't have to account for how hard the guy with 50k max magicka or 5k weapon damage hits.

So no, soft caps isn't a "meaningless nerf" and certainly not a "nerf" that affects everyone the same as you would suggest.

@Rohamad_Ali haha yea I get that. As I said, I don't necessarily agree with it but if that's the direction this game is going to head there are better ways of doing it than what is currently happening in PTS.

Yes and more is coming . It's going to be a painful change for a lot of players . I know I'll figure it out and make it work eventually , I just get tired of relearning base game play .

rxhymn · January 2017

I hate posts like this. The game is already *** easy. Please if anything make it more difficult and more of a grind.

If champion points are so important, great! Gives you something to work toward.

If gear is hard to get, awesome! another thing to work toward.

Take away the sense of reward (which eso of great at doing) and the game becomes boring as hell.

Dont worry though, we can all just sit around wearing costumes and decorating our cosmetic houses.

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

rxhymn wrote: »

I hate posts like this. The game is already *** easy. Please if anything make it more difficult and more of a grind.

If champion points are so important, great! Gives you something to work toward.

If gear is hard to get, awesome! another thing to work toward.

Take away the sense of reward (which eso of great at doing) and the game becomes boring as hell.

Dont worry though, we can all just sit around wearing costumes and decorating our cosmetic houses.

You're fighting a losing battle man, Rich clearly stated this is the direction they're going so I am just proposing a better way to go about doing that. Also sounds like you'd consider yourself to be in the upper tier of players so soft caps and a CP adjustment might make things a bit harder for you than in the current state. You wanna whine about how everything is so easy, I would think you'd like this type of solution. I didn't say anything about taking end game progression away, just adjusting it a bit so it doesn't lead to as huge a gap. In vet trials and PVP, all the small advantages you can gain add up, so it would still make a difference there. God forbid you can't roll over less experienced players on gear and CP alone though, no that would require a difference in skill and who wants that to be the deciding factor?

nordsavage · January 2017

Anhedonie wrote: »

Soft caps need to make a come back. But this time they have to think it through.
It was a mess back then.

They are never going to admit they messed up removing soft caps.

rxhymn · January 2017

Blackfyre20 wrote: »

rxhymn wrote: »

I hate posts like this. The game is already *** easy. Please if anything make it more difficult and more of a grind.

If champion points are so important, great! Gives you something to work toward.

If gear is hard to get, awesome! another thing to work toward.

Take away the sense of reward (which eso of great at doing) and the game becomes boring as hell.

Dont worry though, we can all just sit around wearing costumes and decorating our cosmetic houses.

You're fighting a losing battle man, Rich clearly stated this is the direction they're going so I am just proposing a better way to go about doing that. Also sounds like you'd consider yourself to be in the upper tier of players so soft caps and a CP adjustment might make things a bit harder for you than in the current state. You wanna whine about how everything is so easy, I would think you'd like this type of solution. I didn't say anything about taking end game progression away, just adjusting it a bit so it doesn't lead to as huge a gap. In vet trials and PVP, all the small advantages you can gain add up, so it would still make a difference there. God forbid you can't roll over less experienced players on gear and CP alone though, no that would require a difference in skill and who wants that to be the deciding factor?

Maybe.. but I stand behind what I said.

Making gear easier to find is messing with end game progression, it takes time with rgn to equip chars and adds a huge reward when you actually get the stuff you like. Equipping characters easily takes away all of the incentive and fun.

Whats the point of leveling if it hardly makes a difference? Want to not get wrecked, put in the work that the other players did to get there. Or play pvp on no champ. The options are there.

Also, I am not max cp. I am happy knowing there is still things to do but I feel like thats dwindling.

There needs to be content and challenges that are seemingly impossible at lower levels... thats the whole point of progression.

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

rxhymn wrote: »

There needs to be content and challenges that are seemingly impossible at lower levels... thats the whole point of progression.

I totally agree, and there is some such content in the game but not much. That is a content issue though more than a balance issue.

MAEK · January 2017

I came here expecting a housing thread. I am dissapointed

idk · January 2017

@Blackfyre20

About soft caps, you are very much mistaken. Soft caps would affect much less than it seems you expect. CP has a much larger affect unless they made soft caps stupidly low (like 1k each stat). With CP some build do 50% more damage and heavily reduce the damage the player takes.

Additionally, since gearing and such is available to all it means soft caps woujld do little other than push people to choose the stats not affected by soft cap as they did pre 1.6.

So, yes, soft caps would have less affect than you think.

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Blackfyre20

About soft caps, you are very much mistaken. Soft caps would affect much less than it seems you expect. CP has a much larger affect unless they made soft caps stupidly low (like 1k each stat). With CP some build do 50% more damage and heavily reduce the damage the player takes.

Additionally, since gearing and such is available to all it means soft caps would do little other than push people to choose the stats not affected by soft cap as they did pre 1.6.

So, yes, soft caps would have less affect than you think.

Yea I'm not suggesting we revert to the old soft caps exactly like they were. ZOS should have adjusted and fixed soft caps rather than throwing them out though. I get that people will push stats not affected by soft caps but that is still harder to do than pushing stats now that would be affected by soft caps but aren't. Also keep in mind the major and minor buff system.

I'm also not suggesting that soft caps alone are the ultimate balancing fix to every problem. Individual skills/sets still need to be looked at, no doubt about it. I think this would be easier to do in the scope of soft caps. I also totally agree CP has a huge effect in the gap between strong and weak players and needs to be looked at, as I said in the OP.

Woeler · January 2017

I truly hope this game will never turn that casual.

AzuraKin · January 2017

Solariken wrote: »

Better tooltip descriptions are needed for sure. I hate soft caps (at least the version we had before), but I think they should change all CP increments to be .1% so that each CP star maxes out at 10% total instead of 25%. The power gain in the CP system is obscene.

lol what we had before had the game balanced, it wasnt about how much spell power/weapon power, max resource and proc damage you could do, it was how well you could manage both your resources.

Agalloch · January 2017

Please do not make ESO transform in Elder Fashion Online!!!

Look at Guild Wars 2 ....all is about fashion and skins... I played it for almost 2 years ...but trust me, things make u bored quickly ..and make u play it only casual . Yes ..2 years ...but not every day..and not so many hours per day as I play ESO .

ESO has something to work for ( CP system and gear) ..GW2 don't .

If they read softcaps and get rid of CP system ...ESO will become Elder Fashion Online..and will loose its attractivity.

A great MMO like ESO needs to keep both kind of progressions : linear and horizontal . This is the key to success.

Also ESO need a better explanation of its core mechanics. Also a better item compare system . As an example..look at Diablo 3 . http://imgur.com/a/yRLUe

English is not my native language.

inflaburwb17_ESO · January 2017

My new character started with 75 CP available for each leg of the pie... is that right ???

AdamBourke · January 2017

What are/were soft caps?

I've been playing this game since launch (I'm subscribed, but don't get a lot of time to play, a few hours a week) - and I have no idea how anything is calculated. I'm working through the PS4 trophies, so i've got a while yet before I have to do anything competitive - but... it would be nice if there was something in game to tell you how things worked - even if you had to go into the help menu to find it.

Blackfyre20 · January 2017

@frateanu.luiseb17_ESO CP needs to be reworked or adjusted. Of course I still think there should be some sort of progression for end game players, but CP makes too much of an enormous difference right now. I like the idea of CP as it makes your character more customizable and unique. Even that aspect though is lessened by how huge a damage and mitigation boost CP gives, so there are some places where every single person will dump most of their CP depending on if they're stam or mag. Also, CP giving more max stats is just inflating everyone's stats and should be removed. You get enough of a boost from the actually CP bonuses and passives without the stat boost.

@AdamBourke soft caps meant diminishing returns on your character's stats once you hit a certain point, and they were removed with 1.6.

AhPook_Is_Here · January 2017

you are reading the hype. basically they hosed the champion system and it created a window for people on their click game to excel. they had 2 options, decrease the efficiency of pro-clicking or nerf the champion system. They just took the route of better PR and fewer tears.