End game, progressive PvE Content (Letter to ZOS)

Belazarus · January 2017

Greetings once again fellow Tamriel travellers!

I hope you all had a lovely festive period and wish you& your families all a very happy 2017!
Really looking forward to what 2017 has in store for ESO.

So firstly, a quick introduction! I'm Belazarus (call me Bel), I'm the guild leader of Alith, a social, PvE, respectful community with 500 active members (alitheso.com). Our guild has been going for 7 years now, we always stick with 1 MMO and have been present in ESO (EU) since beta. We're very active, have daily raids & events, and also run a well known ESO podcast called Alith-Cast, you can find us on YouTube and Twitch! I have always loved the Elder Scrolls series, and have always been an MMO player, so ESO is the dream game for me. I still love the game, and my community are equally passionate about ESO and we all really want it to continue to succeed & grow. I say all of this, so that you understand this is NOT a "moan" thread, but a genuine cry for help, because I love this game, but have some real concerns for how it holds the interest & excitement of end-game players.

I know many end game players who feel the same way, some who are in my community & some who aren't, but I won't speak for them - I'm sure they'll chime in on this thread if they choose to

I'm not someone who constantly raises threads in the forums, but when I do it's generally because I'm really passionate about something which I feel needs attention. I raised a thread some time ago regarding the lack of player guild features in the game (with LOTS of suggestions) but had zero acknowledgement from anyone from ZOS, unfortunately:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/267148/eso-focus-on-social-where-is-it-player-guild-features-letter-to-zos#latest

Anyway! Back on track

While I love ESO, as time has gone on, and I have reached what you might call "end game" in ESO, I have found it increasingly difficult and frustrating, to find anything meaningful / rewarding / fun to do in the game (as a PvE player). I find myself in a situation where, I have been maximum level for over a year now, have been at CP spend cap for a long time, have managed to get all the main achievements for trials, dungeons, and most of the character ones too (including maxed out crafting etc). I've completed all the quests. I also have collected all, what you might call "best in slot" gear sets for my class & role. All maxed out to gold etc.. and have cleared all the trials & dungeons multiple times. I find myself in a really frustrating situation, where it feels I have no further goals or objectives in the game to aim for. I find there is no incentive or reward for re-visiting the dungeons & trials in the game (grinding them), no real reason to do them.

I cannot level up any further.
I can gain more champion points, but since I've hit the spend cap - there's no benefit.
There are no gear sets or items worth grinding dungeons / trials for.
There are no significant achievements to aim for.
There is no reason for me to craft anything. (apart from helping out guildies, and making a bit of money - but nothing to spend my money on haha)
There is no reason to do undaunted pledges (nothing to gain from doing them).
No real incentive to do any of the daily quests (in world or factions).
No incentive to do the dolmens or world bosses.
Etc Etc

Leaving me in a position, where I log into the game each day, but have nothing to do (by myself OR with my friends).
Now I know you could use the argument "Well, isn't it fun enough to just do the dungeons / trials / dailies, without the need for any reward?" And the answer is, sure, the first 300 times, but after that doing the same content over and over, just to "do the content", with no reward or any actual "progress" in the game, becomes very boring very quickly I'm afraid.

And this is the core issue here - there is no real progressive content, for end game players.
Meaning, for end game PvE players, it feels they have no way to actually progress any further in the game, it feels like we hit a brick wall - and can go no further.
And this makes the game increasingly boring and a struggle to keep playing.

I just find it such a huge shame, that there is SO MUCH content in this game (dungeons, trials, huge world, world bosses, dolmens, repeatable quests, factions, etc etc) - but NO incentive for end-game players to keep doing them. There is a huge opportunity here, and I really am struggling to understand why ZOS isn't taking advantage of the amazing world they have built, by implementing some simple systems which will give end-game players continuous goals to aim for, and a chance to actually continue to progress. Keeping them engaged in the game.

I have a large guild of 500 members, a community I love dearly and am very proud of. Honestly, it's my community that keeps me playing ESO, not the game itself. I find myself just doing the daily quests, to collect rare motifs (to sell, because I already have them), but have nothing to spend the gold on :P Occasionally I'll do a dungeon or trial, but that's just to help out fellow guildies / friends, not because I actually enjoy or want to do the dungeons. The rest of my time spent in game, is just socialising and chatting with my guild. I miss "playing" the game, and am desperate for ZOS to introduce some real progressive content in the game.

Now before everyone jumps down my throat with "But ZOS have done an awesome job at introducing new DLC & content, really regularly, such as thieves guild, dark brotherhood, shadows of the hist, etc... - so how can you say there isn't content for end-game players to do??". I knew you'd say that

The problem with all the DLC, is that they seem to be designed as content which you play once, and then it's over (similar to a single player game). New dungeons, or zones (with quests) come out, we all get excited, 3 weeks later we've completed all the new quests, we might spend a few more weeks getting the new achievements, but then ITS OVER.... back to square one. No real reason to go back and continue to do the repeatable quests in those new places. No reward or progress. So introducing this new content in DLC's is only a very short temporary fix, for us end-game PvE players.

Again, what the game NEEDS, are systems which allow end-game players to go back and enjoy all the repeatable solo & group content, with the feeling that everytime we do that, it's all contributing towards our characters real progress. There are some really simple, tried and tested ways, ZOS can do this.

Here are some ideas, but I'm sure ZOS can think of many other creative ways, to keep their end-game players engaged:

1. Token / Currency system for PvE (similar to Tel Var)

This is one very simple and easy, tried and tested system which could help. Introduce one (or several) new currencies in the game, which can ONLY be earned by going back and completing dungeons, trials, daily quests, dolmens, etc... By doing this content, you will ALWAYS be rewarded with SOME of this currency. Have vendors located in the game, where you can spend said currency, on the most competitive (highest tier) rare armour sets, which can't be acquired anywhere else. You can of course put anything in those stores, but they need to be attractive enough, and meaningful enough, to be a real incentive for people to grind said currency. (If the items you can get from drops / guild trader / crafted is superior, then again, people won't grind the currency, back to square one). You can even tie this token system into the in-game factions (mages guild, fighters guild, etc...) This would finally give us end-game PvE players, a real incentive to keep going back to do all the repeatable content. Oh, and the prices need to be EXPENSIVE - this is to ensure that we keep going back, and keep grinding, keep making progress. If you can buy everything in 2 weeks of grinding, doesn't really solve the problem.

2. Faction (Guild) Reputation

You have an amazing opportunity already in the game, with mages guild, fighters guild, undaunted, etc... Again, this COULD be a real fantastic way for players to progress in the game, at end-game. Simply raise the maximum cap for each faction, significantly. Expand the ways in which you can gain reputation for each faction (incorporating dungeons, trials, dailies, etc...). Make it a very long & challenging journey to finally reach cap. Introduce faction vendors (such as Mages Guild store) where the higher your reputation rises, the better rewards unlock in the store, for you to purchase. You can still make those items expensive to purchase (in gold or tokens) so there is still more "work to do" in order to actually buy the items. This would be a really fun way for players to continue to interact with the factions, and again, real "progressive content" for us end-game players.

There are many ways you could model the above 2 suggestions . The beauty of these systems is that players are gauranteed to make "real progress", every time they complete any of the repeatable content (even if they don't get any useful items from the content itself). The fact that they will ALWAYS get some of these "tokens" or "Reputation" means that there is ALWAYS an incentive & reward for completing the content. Particularly because the items that you can then acquire, with enough reputation or tokens, or both - are some of the best & most saught after in the game!

3. Introduce new, rare, and even more superior armour sets to dungeons

Another simple fix, would be simply introducing new armour sets to the existing dungeons / trials - however ensure that they truly are superior to all currently existing gear (significantly) and ensure that their drop rate is very low. This would give us a new incentive & reason to go back to the dungeons / trials, and grind them. "What about crafters??" Well if you want to address that at the same time, you could introduce (at the same time) new gear sets which can be crafted, but require new VERY RARE materials, which can only be obtained from the dungeons / trials. Again, an incentive & reward for crafters enjoying the PvE repeatable content too.

I have several other potential ideas, but I fear this thread is long enough already haha.

I know that I'm not alone in this frustration, and I already have many friends who have left ESO, and headed to other MMO's, to get that very needed feeling of being able to REALLY progress at end-game, as a PvE player. Most other MMO's have similar systems to what I described above, however it doesn't HAVE to be those. I'm sure the folk at ZOS can put their heads together, and come up with creative solutions which will address this very real issue. I merely offered those suggestions, because I'm not one of those who just moans about things, without offering solutions or alternative ideas. As you see from my forum activity, I'm not a serial forum moaner at all actually

I just really love this game, and have enjoyed my time with the game, but right now (with great sadness) it's just my community who are keeping me playing the game. (if you call logging in, grinding dailies, selling motifs, "playing").

This really is a cry for help, from someone who LOVES the game, and has built an amazing community in ESO, and genuinely pray that something will happen for us end-game PvE players.
If anyone else feels the same, feel free to drop your thoughts, and feel free to share your ideas. Let's help ZOS to address this issue, rather than just complain about it.

Thanks for reading this VERY long thread lol. Here's hoping for an exciting, successful and FUN 2017 with ESO!

A passionate ESO player and community leader
Bel

ps. Apologies if this topic has already been raised somewhere else on the forum!

drakhan2002_ESO · January 2017

Wow, I didn't know you could post so much in a single thread - isn't there a cap on the length?

Most of it = tl;dr...but I read some of the beginning. Maybe take a break from the game if you feel you can't progress any further...try a different game...maybe don't consume the content so quickly in your next game. The standard fair.

Belazarus · January 2017

Thanks for the comment Drak

I don't want to have to take a break from a game, which I actually love. Especially as I have my community in ESO - I cannot just abandon them. In my experience, the greatest MMO's are those which have enough for you to do at end game, that you never feel the need to "take a break" from it

I want ESO to be that game - I know it can be!

Thanks again!
Bel

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

You sound like a nice person and you have some good ideas. The thing is ... Cyrodiil is the end game at your point. I know you're a PVE person, but it's the truth. You might not have any interest in it, or maybe you do (not sure), but it is what it is.

It's really not as scary as it sounds. After a few weeks you'll get the hang of things. You only need to find a proper tour guild, and follow their instructions. No different than in a trial.

KimoBitz · January 2017

Great ideas man, I also read your guild feature ideas and I loved them.Hope the ZOS devs read this @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JasonI @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Sinolai · January 2017

Sorry but I dont think your suggestions are really going to help with your problem. You would grind a few runs more until you get that awesome armor from mages guild high rank shop. Then you would be back at the point where there is nothing to do. As THEDKEXPERIENCE said, pvp is the end game. pvp, and decorating your house.

RazorCaltrops · January 2017

I agree mostly, in general end-game progression/content needs some love. However, while introducing new sets/materials sound attractive, they will not fix the problem because it's simply an endless grind + the dungeons are far too easy (and there are people who still struggle which is odd).

One more thing: End-game lacks competition.

It doesnt matter for some people who do the weekly trials whether they do 30k or 140k score as long as they are in the leaderboard. For instance there's no reward for the top 10-20 groups in the weekly, they get the same RNG-based rewards with the people who are at the bottom of the leaderboard. This makes the playerbase lazy, therefore competition is stuck between 2-3 organized guilds an it's understandable to a certain extent because there is no incentive for them to get higher scores.

They nailed it with VMOL back in the day (which took 5 months for the first HM clear ever), i'm still hopeful about the 5th trial and general fixes to end game pve which will flourish the community.

Belazarus · January 2017

Thanks for all the responses guys!

@THEDKEXPERIENCE
You're right, I am certainly mainly a PvE player, and indeed I'm posting this predominantly on behalf of the PvE playing community. The times I have PvP'd in ESO, they have been fun, and I completely realise that there is always Cyrodiil & IC to enjoy at end game.

However I do think it's a huge shame, that PvE players should be forced to play PvP at end game, if they want to continue to enjoy & progress in the game. I believe that the game should be able to keep both communities happy for the long term

@KimoBitz
Thank you for the ping Kimo, wasn't sure how to get their attention, much appreciated!

@Sinolai
Thanks for your comments Sin. Although I don't fully agree - if it's done correctly, you can implement the system so that it takes a significant amount of play time for you to be able to get enough (currency or reputation) to be able to buy even 1 of those items.

The trick is to make it challenging & time consuming enough that, by the time you have all the items you want from the stores, the NEXT DLC comes out, with the NEXT sets of armour etc. And the journey continues

Some MMO's have really mastered this, you never feel like you've reached the end, always something more to look forward to & work towards

OrphanHelgen · January 2017

I apologize for being straight out honest now.
I think there is more to do in this game then you think, its just how much you actually want to do.

There are some easier achievements like quests and dolmens, and there are the more difficult one like flawless conq, dromatra destroyer, no death in dungeons and even master angler etc. Reading your post, I believe you are in the end game community, but not on the hardcore part. The achievements I just assume you don't have and I might be wrong, but I can give a few other examples as well.

I spent 1-2 months to create a dps build, I tested every single sets and combinations possible and did over 100 dps tests. I even took the DK whip for 100 more wpn dmg with ardent flame abilities while on my bar, Im sure I have to be the only stam DK who used molten whip. I have to say I dont use that now, but I did everything I could to do testing. I spend over 4 million gold this patch only, to mention a few things, golden all weapons, tested different enchants in weapons, crafted none meta sets like gladiator, tested nirn trait, precice vs sharpend, all monster sets including selene in pve etc. It was hard work, but in result, I got a build that was purely self design, so far away from meta builds you can get, and my single target are sometimes 55k on trial bosses sustained. This was one example how to keep yourself busy end game and gain progression. Im sure this can be done with any kind of playstyle and class. Players who say their dps are at max and their gear are best in slot, dont have the right attitude to improve and progress. There can always be improvement.

Another thing are trial tactics. Most raiding groups who do trials, do tactics that are already out there, and same with group compositions. Main tank and offtank uses specific sets, and same with healers and DD's. And then the ways to complete the trials, are also already knowned ways, usually found by talking to other experienced players or looking up on youtube or forums. I can tell you know, that every single trial has a better way to do the bosses compared to the meta tactics. Me and some friends already found some ways to slightly improve the time and dps on mantikora, last boss helra, serpent, 2nd boss vmol and last boss AA. This require alot of creativity and interest, and the time consuming it takes to plan things like this, can be hours.

Another thing I would mention. Im not into this myself, but it is the price market. I believe controlling prices and maybe even run trading guilds, are alot of work and different playstyle then most of us are used to. There is gold farmers too out there, and I believe you can control so much in this game if you have millions and even billions of gold. Again, I have no clue how this work, but its a way to play the end game in an MMO, im sure.

To sum up, I agree that doing a daily and a dolmen are not as rewarding as it could be, but I also want to add that the rng in this game already can keep you busy for more then the quarter of the patch last. I know people who want burning spellweave firestaff sharpend and did 200+ runs and never saw it. Leviathan daggers sharpend etc you know the deal. This really keeps you busy if you want do have stuff to do. Even more rarer might be the trial gears in weapons sharpend, poisoned serpent dagger sharpend, I would pay a million gold for that. Im sure I will never see one.

I think you are right that based on your own personal playstyle there is nothing more to do. But it is, and I had all my monster sets in divines on all characters within the first week of the patch, but still I log in every day and play for hours and hours and I feel I will never be done.

Belazarus · January 2017

@RazorCaltrops
Thanks Razor, I do agree with your thoughts - however at this stage, I would gladly welcome "endless grind of easy dungeons" if it actually resulted in "real" progress in the game. Right now, it's endless grind of easy dungeons, with no reward. Indeed, we're desperate

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

Belazarus wrote: »

Greetings once again fellow Tamriel travellers!

I hope you all had a lovely festive period and wish you& your families all a very happy 2017!
Really looking forward to what 2017 has in store for ESO.

So firstly, a quick introduction! I'm Belazarus (call me Bel), I'm the guild leader of Alith, a social, PvE, respectful community with 500 active members (alitheso.com). Our guild has been going for 7 years now, we always stick with 1 MMO and have been present in ESO (EU) since beta. We're very active, have daily raids & events, and also run a well known ESO podcast called Alith-Cast, you can find us on YouTube and Twitch! I have always loved the Elder Scrolls series, and have always been an MMO player, so ESO is the dream game for me. I still love the game, and my community are equally passionate about ESO and we all really want it to continue to succeed & grow. I say all of this, so that you understand this is NOT a "moan" thread, but a genuine cry for help, because I love this game, but have some real concerns for how it holds the interest & excitement of end-game players.

I know many end game players who feel the same way, some who are in my community & some who aren't, but I won't speak for them - I'm sure they'll chime in on this thread if they choose to

I'm not someone who constantly raises threads in the forums, but when I do it's generally because I'm really passionate about something which I feel needs attention. I raised a thread some time ago regarding the lack of player guild features in the game (with LOTS of suggestions) but had zero acknowledgement from anyone from ZOS, unfortunately:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/267148/eso-focus-on-social-where-is-it-player-guild-features-letter-to-zos#latest

Anyway! Back on track

While I love ESO, as time has gone on, and I have reached what you might call "end game" in ESO, I have found it increasingly difficult and frustrating, to find anything meaningful / rewarding / fun to do in the game (as a PvE player). I find myself in a situation where, I have been maximum level for over a year now, have been at CP cap for a long time, have managed to get all the main achievements for trials, dungeons, and most of the character ones too (including maxed out crafting etc). I've completed all the quests. I also have collected all, what you might call "best in slot" gear sets for my class & role. All maxed out to gold etc.. and have cleared all the trials & dungeons multiple times. I find myself in a really frustrating situation, where it feels I have no further goals or objectives in the game to aim for. I find there is no incentive or reward for re-visiting the dungeons & trials in the game (grinding them), no real reason to do them.

I cannot level up any further.
I cannot gain any more Champion Points.
There are no gear sets or items worth grinding dungeons / trials for.
There are no significant achievements to aim for.
There is no reason for me to craft anything. (apart from helping out guildies, and making a bit of money - but nothing to spend my money on haha)
There is no reason to do undaunted pledges (nothing to gain from doing them).
No real incentive to do any of the daily quests (in world or factions).
No incentive to do the dolmens or world bosses.
Etc Etc

Leaving me in a position, where I log into the game each day, but have nothing to do (by myself OR with my friends).
Now I know you could use the argument "Well, isn't it fun enough to just do the dungeons / trials / dailies, without the need for any reward?" And the answer is, sure, the first 300 times, but after that doing the same content over and over, just to "do the content", with no reward or any actual "progress" in the game, becomes very boring very quickly I'm afraid.

And this is the core issue here - there is no real progressive content, for end game players.
Meaning, for end game PvE players, it feels they have no way to actually progress any further in the game, it feels like we hit a brick wall - and can go no further.
And this makes the game increasingly boring and a struggle to keep playing.

I just find it such a huge shame, that there is SO MUCH content in this game (dungeons, trials, huge world, world bosses, dolmens, repeatable quests, factions, etc etc) - but NO incentive for end-game players to keep doing them. There is a huge opportunity here, and I really am struggling to understand why ZOS isn't taking advantage of the amazing world they have built, by implementing some simple systems which will give end-game players continuous goals to aim for, and a chance to actually continue to progress. Keeping them engaged in the game.

I have a large guild of 500 members, a community I love dearly and am very proud of. Honestly, it's my community that keeps me playing ESO, not the game itself. I find myself just doing the daily quests, to collect rare motifs (to sell, because I already have them), but have nothing to spend the gold on :P Occasionally I'll do a dungeon or trial, but that's just to help out fellow guildies / friends, not because I actually enjoy or want to do the dungeons. The rest of my time spent in game, is just socialising and chatting with my guild. I miss "playing" the game, and am desperate for ZOS to introduce some real progressive content in the game.

Now before everyone jumps down my throat with "But ZOS have done an awesome job at introducing new DLC & content, really regularly, such as thieves guild, dark brotherhood, shadows of the hist, etc... - so how can you say there isn't content for end-game players to do??". I knew you'd say that The problem with all the DLC, is that they seem to be designed as content which you play once, and then it's over (similar to a single player game). New dungeons, or zones (with quests) come out, we all get excited, 3 weeks later we've completed all the new quests, we might spend a few more weeks getting the new achievements, but then ITS OVER.... back to square one. No real reason to go back and continue to do the repeatable quests in those new places. No reward or progress. So introducing this new content in DLC's is only a very short temporary fix, for us end-game PvE players.

Again, what the game NEEDS, are systems which allow end-game players to go back and enjoy all the repeatable solo & group content, with the feeling that everytime we do that, it's all contributing towards our characters real progress. There are some really simple, tried and tested ways, ZOS can do this.

Here are some ideas, but I'm sure ZOS can think of many other creative ways, to keep their end-game players engaged:

1. Token / Currency system for PvE (similar to Tel Var)

This is one very simple and easy, tried and tested system which could help. Introduce one (or several) new currencies in the game, which can ONLY be earned by going back and completing dungeons, trials, daily quests, dolmens, etc... By doing this content, you will ALWAYS be rewarded with SOME of this currency. Have vendors located in the game, where you can spend said currency, on the most competitive (highest tier) rare armour sets, which can't be acquired anywhere else. You can of course put anything in those stores, but they need to be attractive enough, and meaningful enough, to be a real incentive for people to grind said currency. (If the items you can get from drops / guild trader / crafted is superior, then again, people won't grind the currency, back to square one). You can even tie this token system into the in-game factions (mages guild, fighters guild, etc...) This would finally give us end-game PvE players, a real incentive to keep going back to do all the repeatable content. Oh, and the prices need to be EXPENSIVE - this is to ensure that we keep going back, and keep grinding, keep making progress. If you can buy everything in 2 weeks of grinding, doesn't really solve the problem.

2. Faction (Guild) Reputation

You have an amazing opportunity already in the game, with mages guild, fighters guild, undaunted, etc... Again, this COULD be a real fantastic way for players to progress in the game, at end-game. Simply raise the maximum cap for each faction, significantly. Expand the ways in which you can gain reputation for each faction (incorporating dungeons, trials, dailies, etc...). Make it a very long & challenging journey to finally reach cap. Introduce faction vendors (such as Mages Guild store) where the higher your reputation rises, the better rewards unlock in the store, for you to purchase. You can still make those items expensive to purchase (in gold or tokens) so there is still more "work to do" in order to actually buy the items. This would be a really fun way for players to continue to interact with the factions, and again, real "progressive content" for us end-game players.

There are many ways you could model the above 2 suggestions . The beauty of these systems is that players are gauranteed to make "real progress", every time they complete any of the repeatable content (even if they don't get any useful items from the content itself). The fact that they will ALWAYS get some of these "tokens" or "Reputation" means that there is ALWAYS an incentive & reward for completing the content. Particularly because the items that you can then acquire, with enough reputation or tokens, or both - are some of the best & most saught after in the game!

3. Introduce new, rare, and even more superior armour sets to dungeons

Another simple fix, would be simply introducing new armour sets to the existing dungeons / trials - however ensure that they truly are superior to all currently existing gear (significantly) and ensure that their drop rate is very low. This would give us a new incentive & reason to go back to the dungeons / trials, and grind them. "What about crafters??" Well if you want to address that at the same time, you could introduce (at the same time) new gear sets which can be crafted, but require new VERY RARE materials, which can only be obtained from the dungeons / trials. Again, an incentive & reward for crafters enjoying the PvE repeatable content too.

I have several other potential ideas, but I fear this thread is long enough already haha.

I know that I'm not alone in this frustration, and I already have many friends who have left ESO, and headed to other MMO's, to get that very needed feeling of being able to REALLY progress at end-game, as a PvE player. Most other MMO's have similar systems to what I described above, however it doesn't HAVE to be those. I'm sure the folk at ZOS can put their heads together, and come up with creative solutions which will address this very real issue. I merely offered those suggestions, because I'm not one of those who just moans about things, without offering solutions or alternative ideas. As you see from my forum activity, I'm not a serial forum moaner at all actually

I just really love this game, and have enjoyed my time with the game, but right now (with great sadness) it's just my community who are keeping me playing the game. (if you call logging in, grinding dailies, selling motifs, "playing").

This really is a cry for help, from someone who LOVES the game, and has built an amazing community in ESO, and genuinely pray that something will happen for us end-game PvE players.
If anyone else feels the same, feel free to drop your thoughts, and feel free to share your ideas. Let's help ZOS to address this issue, rather than just complain about it.

Thanks for reading this VERY long thread lol. Here's hoping for an exciting, successful and FUN 2017 with ESO!

A passionate ESO player and community leader
Bel

ps. Apologies if this topic has already been raised somewhere else on the forum!

Well kudos to you. This was a well thought out articulate post. I have been thinking these exact same thoughts since the end of 2015. I've followed eso through announced ,production, beta which I was a phase one player.

From what I can see Eso took a major turn in 2015. They started to back peddle on features and things they were going to add shortly after Craglorn was added and delay projections. They stretched what they said would be a six month process of vr removal to 18 months. The major change in development came right when Paul sage and some other lead designers were cut from ESO.

Eso went from our end game will be trials and adventure zones , to Dlc's and the game is a online Rpg not the traditional MMO from Matt Fior interviews and statements. For me when they dropped the TG & DB guilds with a solo centric design no actives and no pregression. I knew the game was in an internal upheaval. Either the bulk of the team was working on a new project or Eso was going into milk mode.And when they hired the same company post production to handle the "crown store" that devolved Tor's, and Neverwinter gem store. I knew I was done.

The last two dlc's they have released are completely solo. Aside from the Hist dungeons and IC which I loved and actually kept me playing for a few weeks . I don't see Eso doing any of the things you and I enjoy in MMO's. They have redesigned the whole core of the game to not need roles all the pledges are done with 4 dps or 3 dps and a heal, the gear progression is non existing meaning you don't really need any of the dropped gear to perform end game trials.Right now ESO is designing itself for the churn base player, and the barbie doll crown store player.

No before anyone comes in and starts telling me give it time and I've rushed through the game you can stop. Almost every second Gen AAA mmo at 3 years post launch had 2 or 3 major expansions with Multi layered AA systems, several tiers of raiding, 2 level cap increases, housing, multiple tiers of single group dungeons that taught you techniques and mechanics required for raiding. Some added classes, races, and in the case of EQ2 they added dlc's with more questiong,stories gear and epic questlines with major reward systems along the way.

EQ 1 &2 , Aoc, Lotro,Rift, Swtor hell even Vanguard, all added more content and game expanding systems with smaller sales , smaller sub base, and with tools that were harder to develop content with. Sorry I sound negative but the corporate MMO genre is taking greed to far. Eso is in milk mode it's not in let's build a awesome game on a five year plan like they originally said.

AlnilamE · January 2017

Well, first of all, congratulations on reaching 3600 champion points. I'm barely above 700, but I''m slowly working my way there.

Second, while having a token system may be interesting to some folks, I object to the notion that the rewards should be significantly better than what you can get elsewhere in the game. We already have enough people complaining about Maelstrom weapons and Master weapons. We don't need more of that stuff, really.

I personally like the feeling that there is no content I *have* to do. I can choose whatever avenue I want to improve my character, and slowly working through achievements is one of the ways I do that. If all of a sudden I had to grind 100 dolmens (which I've already done on 3 characters for the achievement) to get a *must have* piece of gear, that would be a serious turn off.

idk · January 2017

Tl;dr

Belazarus wrote: »

1. Token / Currency system for PvE (similar to Tel Var)

Personally like that I do not have to roll against 12 people for a token. More importantly, if there is not gear worth grinding for then what is the point to the Token system?

Belazarus wrote: »

2. Faction (Guild) Reputation

Many of us do not want something else to grind.

Belazarus wrote: »

3. Introduce new, rare, and even more superior armour sets to dungeons

Infallible Aether/Viscous Ophidian and Moondancer are already used by moderate to top DDs on the server including the top DPS. It is part of any solid PvE DD build. Alkosh is often used by one member of a competitive or progression minded raid team.

This indicates there is a superior armor set in trails and dungeons.

Additionally, for 4 man dungeons there are monster helms and pledges to get monster shoulders (though many are scheduled to be nerfed). These sets are currently BiS in most DD builds.

Further, there are sets that are highly desirable for certain roles to have that only drop in dungeons and often require multiple runs to be able to obtain a full set. SPC, Worm. BSW and Ebon to name a few off the top of my head. Many also covet other sets that drop in dungeons for various reasons.

We do need more end game content, another trial or two for ESO to catch up with their peers.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

@Belazarus

I'd like to pose a question to you because you seem like someone smart enough to understand that my question is in no way an attempt to troll you or start a PVP/PVE flame war.

I think it's fair to say we both have a similar level of love for ESO, even if for different reasons. I've been around since PC beta, into PC launch, console beta and then on console the entire time. I was posting on forums 2 years before launch and will play this game until they turn the servers off in the very distant future. So it seems we are coming from the same place.

That said, while I like PVE, I've always looked at it as a means to an end. I get a helm here, a sword there, rank up this, min-max that in PVE all with the intention of "showing off" in PVP. I'm not some crazy, blood thirsty nut job either. But I always felt like PVE is building you into a race car, and PVP is the track it's run on.

There will always be better players than I but without competition in PVP I don't feel like I'd actually ever get better or reap the rewards of my time in PVE.

So, that said, why do you PVE? I know you get enjoyment out of it, but are you building towards something? If you already built everything that you wanted, what are you doing with it? Sure you could keep doing the same trials and such, it's your game to play however you want, but don't you want to see how you stack up against the best of the best?

I realize that not everyone is wired the same way, but I'm interested in your thoughts on this topic because it's often perplexed me and it's hard to get a response that isn't hostile to it. Thanks!

Belazarus · January 2017

Thanks @Giles.floydub17_ESO @AlnilamE @Wifeaggro13 @OrphanHelgen for your thoughts.

I realise that I could spend end game just min-maxing my character specs by experimenting with gear sets, but I'm not sure that's the most fun way to enjoy end game in an MMO these days. What I feel the game needs, is more reasons to go back into the awesome content ESO has (dungeons, dolmens, world bosses, dailies, etc..)

All the sets you guys mentioned, I do indeed have already. I am indeed still earning CP, but since I've hit the soft cap (cannot spend anymore) it does not feel like progress as currently there is no benefit to gaining CP.

Totally understand that "grinding" reputation, tokens, etc... isn't for everyone - I can respect that. And indeed not everyone wants more things to grind for. But that's the point, not everyone has to - it would just be nice to have the option there for those of us who are looking for more to work towards in the game. Like I said, an incentive for us who already have the gear sets, to keep going back for more

Belazarus · January 2017

@THEDKEXPERIENCE

Thanks for the question, and no offence taken at all, it's a great question.

It's right to assume that I am really a PvE centric player. I do not mind a bit of casual PvP, but I'm certainly not a "competitive" PvP player in that sense.

I can also only answer your question, for me personally, and can't speak for others of course.

The reason that I enjoy PvE content, is that I enjoy playing with friends, to take on challenges & objectives together. I enjoy the amazing PvE environments that MMO's (including ESO) has to offer, and enjoy discovering & mastering the mechanics of the various bosses. I enjoy the feeling of succeeding when we finally complete a tough dungeon or raid. Doing this with friends, is a great and fun way to enjoy games such as MMO's. I also enjoy the journey of constantly improving your character, as you complete this PvE content with your friends.

Of course, there comes a time where you HAVE mastered the dungeons, and have indeed become very familiar with all the mechanics etc. At that point, the "enjoyment" comes from going back to those dungeons (or other PvE activities) with your friends, completing them again, knowing that there is a "chance" that you could get something really useful from the activity - or at the very least you will gain something from it which will aid in your ongoing mission, to improve your character (be that gear, skills, etc...). The "goal" in effect, is to continue to improve your character, while having fun with your friends taking on challenging content.

I realise that PvP, you do get some of these experiences - but it's different, in the fact that the goal is predominantly about defeating your enemies (other players) in order to complete objectives (such as capturing forts etc). I totally get how PvP is a hugely fun and rewarding experience for MANY players. But I've also been around MMO's long enough to have experienced some GREAT games that allow you to "continue" to progress your character (in BOTH PvE or PvP). There doesn't need to be a reason why PvE character progression should "stop", forcing you to move into PvP. I know you can introduce systems that means you are always progressing your character - be that in PvP or PvE.

I really hope this answers your question, and while I know not many will agree, these are my personal thoughts (and indeed those of many of my friends).

Thanks again for all your input guys, I really appreciate it.

Bel

AlnilamE · January 2017

Yeah, but if you make the gear sets one gets by grinding that much better than anything else, then people will feel they *have to*. And it will be required if people want to complete certain content.

I don't mind grinding in small bits (and I've been having a good time with the New Life dailies. My last non-vet is now level 41), but the minute it feels like a job, I'm out.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · January 2017

Thanks Bel. Makes sense. Good luck and may the RNGods smile upon you.

idk · January 2017

Belazarus wrote: »

Thanks @Giles.floydub17_ESO @AlnilamE @Wifeaggro13 @OrphanHelgen for your thoughts.

I realise that I could spend end game just min-maxing my character specs by experimenting with gear sets, but I'm not sure that's the most fun way to enjoy end game in an MMO these days. What I feel the game needs, is more reasons to go back into the awesome content ESO has (dungeons, dolmens, world bosses, dailies, etc..)

All the sets you guys mentioned, I do indeed have already. I am indeed still earning CP, but since I've hit the soft cap (cannot spend anymore) it does not feel like progress as currently there is no benefit to gaining CP.

Totally understand that "grinding" reputation, tokens, etc... isn't for everyone - I can respect that. And indeed not everyone wants more things to grind for. But that's the point, not everyone has to - it would just be nice to have the option there for those of us who are looking for more to work towards in the game. Like I said, an incentive for us who already have the gear sets, to keep going back for more

Your first paragraph indicates a lack of interest in adding more special gear as you originally posted since your not interested in min/max. As for your comment in this first paragraph there is already enough gear for you to choose from. They just added and updated a great many sets.

Second paragraph, most games have a cap and raise the cap periodically. It is very bad for a game to have no cap and hence a much greater spread of end game levels and little means for new players to catch up.

Third paragraph, we have enough 'reputation" to grind. You say that not everyone has to grind new reputation added. If it offers something worthy it is a required grind just as some grinding in AvA is required for anyone half serious about tanking and healing vet trials. If it adds worthless fluff it is not worth added.

Cireous · January 2017

I love your idea of a currency for doing all the things people normally do but no longer need the rewards for, but I don't think I would want BiS gear on it. Why make every other piece of gear in the game redundant with this one main vendor? I like that you can go to a specific place to grind a specific thing, it's a really cool feature of One Tamriel, making the game so much better than it had been before. What I would love to see on this theorized currency vendor, instead, is cosmetic items: costumes, personalities, pets, house merchants/bankers/companions, house decor and furniture, and of course, mounts. So basically, crown store stuff, but not so much of it that it takes away from the crown store. The crown store would always have cool, different items that people would also want, but having a vendor for some of this stuff in-game... I think this would make a lot of people pretty happy.
Going a step further, more trial/group based PVE content should be added a little more regularly than it has been in the past. This would help alleviate the boredom factor a little better than simply repeating old content for new rewards. Now that the big important changes to the games overall structure seem to be finished, I think we will see more playable/progressible content being added on a much more consistent basis.

tinythinker · January 2017

There are many ways to add to end-game for both PvE and PvP. I will mention some here for consideration and edit this thread to introduce links and more detailed descriptionsummary when I'm back on my laptop.

From this comment: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3641476/#Comment_3641476

A variation on competitive Trials would have an edge if you had three six-player teams trying to get the highest score (trade points for speed for points for kills/small completions, or vice versa). So this could have some PvP elements to it or not.

Raids (or extended Trials) could take a page from FFXIV and ESO's own two-part group dungeons. Start a story with a trial. People could run Part One all day long if they want getting unique challenges and rewards (yes some gear but be clever about other suitable rewards, there's so much that could be woven in).

Eventually add a Part Two for the next part of the area being run. That area could be run on its own all day, or, you could do Parts One and Two back to back. Hook in some buff from Part One that helps with Part Two but that isn't necessary. If that goes well leave room for a Part Three, a Part Four, etc. Tell a story. Make it modular. The individual parts would be somewhat short yet stitched together it could be quite impressive.

For those who like challenges add achievements or leaderboards for individual Parts as well as running the whole thing consecutively. Since it is build-as-you-go, it doesn't have to come out all at once and you can adjust based on feedback of previously released Parts. Just keep making each installment a new revelation in the story and have some fun new mechanic or twist. Give the extended Trial its own music.

More two-part Group Dungeons, please. And give more old dungeons their part two.

These types of content cater to both the more casual/just trying it out crowd and to longer term players, especially if you can't just super-DPS your way through it all.

The "raids" or extended trials being modular means that each piece can be played individually but the whole story (and some buffs/achievements) could be added for those running it from start to finish. ZOS could put out those modules (i.e. parts one, two, three, four, five, etc.) in a timely manner for those wanting more regular content updates.

The competitive trials offer a more direct sense of competing with other players, regardless of whether or not there are parts which include chances for PvP. You could keep things fresh by being able to challenge other players in a head-to-head race to see which team has the best strategy and skill.

As for older content or repeatable content, making fishing more fun and competitive, adding random inn-keeper quests, adding inn-based activities, adding in daily spy quests, and giving bonuses/rewards for re-running the base PvE content over again would help as it would be optional.

Overhauling part of the crafting system and adding special craft matrials to end-game content would help as well. Being able to craft everything as well as everyone else is boring. So put in customization/spequalization for top tier craters.

Just the tip of the iceberg. Might start Started a PvE +PvP Endgame Megathread.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Belazarus wrote: »

Thanks @Giles.floydub17_ESO @AlnilamE @Wifeaggro13 @OrphanHelgen for your thoughts.

I realise that I could spend end game just min-maxing my character specs by experimenting with gear sets, but I'm not sure that's the most fun way to enjoy end game in an MMO these days. What I feel the game needs, is more reasons to go back into the awesome content ESO has (dungeons, dolmens, world bosses, dailies, etc..)

All the sets you guys mentioned, I do indeed have already. I am indeed still earning CP, but since I've hit the soft cap (cannot spend anymore) it does not feel like progress as currently there is no benefit to gaining CP.

Totally understand that "grinding" reputation, tokens, etc... isn't for everyone - I can respect that. And indeed not everyone wants more things to grind for. But that's the point, not everyone has to - it would just be nice to have the option there for those of us who are looking for more to work towards in the game. Like I said, an incentive for us who already have the gear sets, to keep going back for more

Your first paragraph indicates a lack of interest in adding more special gear as you originally posted since your not interested in min/max. As for your comment in this first paragraph there is already enough gear for you to choose from. They just added and updated a great many sets.

Second paragraph, most games have a cap and raise the cap periodically. It is very bad for a game to have no cap and hence a much greater spread of end game levels and little means for new players to catch up.

Third paragraph, we have enough 'reputation" to grind. You say that not everyone has to grind new reputation added. If it offers something worthy it is a required grind just as some grinding in AvA is required for anyone half serious about tanking and healing vet trials. If it adds worthless fluff it is not worth added.

their are several things wrong with the itemization in this game form my Prespective.

1. is the RNG, now i have no problem with RNG on the whole i get it it is there to make items of value have a rarity and associate the power creep with it. The problem in eso is the RNG is attached to the trait it devalues the item, it now becomnes less about the actuall item or rarity of it and about the trait. For me the wonder of items was always that rarity of getting the o my good god i just got the rare from this particular boss. and it was event amongst your group . Everything in ESO is so cookie cutter its all about sets and mixing them. there are no indvidual items of great power or rarity.

2. there are no quest related items that grow with completion of content , it really devalues some of the story line o, lore TES and the individual content you accomplished is devalued. TES lore had unique items in it Powerful daedric artifacts and ancinet items of immense power. everything in ESO is set generic and is used for multiple type builds and all of it has a meta. right now the meta is proc proc proc. this will change . which is fine MMO's go through this but the lack of individuality in items is not helping when you can craft something as good or better then RNGesus triat drops

idk · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Belazarus wrote: »

Thanks @Giles.floydub17_ESO @AlnilamE @Wifeaggro13 @OrphanHelgen for your thoughts.

I realise that I could spend end game just min-maxing my character specs by experimenting with gear sets, but I'm not sure that's the most fun way to enjoy end game in an MMO these days. What I feel the game needs, is more reasons to go back into the awesome content ESO has (dungeons, dolmens, world bosses, dailies, etc..)

All the sets you guys mentioned, I do indeed have already. I am indeed still earning CP, but since I've hit the soft cap (cannot spend anymore) it does not feel like progress as currently there is no benefit to gaining CP.

Totally understand that "grinding" reputation, tokens, etc... isn't for everyone - I can respect that. And indeed not everyone wants more things to grind for. But that's the point, not everyone has to - it would just be nice to have the option there for those of us who are looking for more to work towards in the game. Like I said, an incentive for us who already have the gear sets, to keep going back for more

Your first paragraph indicates a lack of interest in adding more special gear as you originally posted since your not interested in min/max. As for your comment in this first paragraph there is already enough gear for you to choose from. They just added and updated a great many sets.

Second paragraph, most games have a cap and raise the cap periodically. It is very bad for a game to have no cap and hence a much greater spread of end game levels and little means for new players to catch up.

Third paragraph, we have enough 'reputation" to grind. You say that not everyone has to grind new reputation added. If it offers something worthy it is a required grind just as some grinding in AvA is required for anyone half serious about tanking and healing vet trials. If it adds worthless fluff it is not worth added.

their are several things wrong with the itemization in this game form my Prespective.

1. is the RNG, now i have no problem with RNG on the whole i get it it is there to make items of value have a rarity and associate the power creep with it. The problem in eso is the RNG is attached to the trait it devalues the item, it now becomnes less about the actuall item or rarity of it and about the trait. For me the wonder of items was always that rarity of getting the o my good god i just got the rare from this particular boss. and it was event amongst your group . Everything in ESO is so cookie cutter its all about sets and mixing them. there are no indvidual items of great power or rarity.

2. there are no quest related items that grow with completion of content , it really devalues some of the story line o, lore TES and the individual content you accomplished is devalued. TES lore had unique items in it Powerful daedric artifacts and ancinet items of immense power. everything in ESO is set generic and is used for multiple type builds and all of it has a meta. right now the meta is proc proc proc. this will change . which is fine MMO's go through this but the lack of individuality in items is not helping when you can craft something as good or better then RNGesus triat drops

@Wifeaggro13

To your first point, OP does not seem to be focusing on the RNG, but I would expect many agree the RNG sucks. Removing the traits of no value once someone reaches end game level would be a big improvement. Prosperous and Training on CP 160 is an absolute joke.

As for your second point. this is an MMO. What you mention is one of the many aspects of the TES single player game that would not work in an MMO. Of Course they could name the vMA weapons accordingly, but it would still not be like what is found in the single player games. It would devalue ESO to add aspects as you suggest unless they really became like other things found in game

Shader_Shibes · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Belazarus wrote: »

Greetings once again fellow Tamriel travellers!

I hope you all had a lovely festive period and wish you& your families all a very happy 2017!
Really looking forward to what 2017 has in store for ESO.

So firstly, a quick introduction! I'm Belazarus (call me Bel), I'm the guild leader of Alith, a social, PvE, respectful community with 500 active members (alitheso.com). Our guild has been going for 7 years now, we always stick with 1 MMO and have been present in ESO (EU) since beta. We're very active, have daily raids & events, and also run a well known ESO podcast called Alith-Cast, you can find us on YouTube and Twitch! I have always loved the Elder Scrolls series, and have always been an MMO player, so ESO is the dream game for me. I still love the game, and my community are equally passionate about ESO and we all really want it to continue to succeed & grow. I say all of this, so that you understand this is NOT a "moan" thread, but a genuine cry for help, because I love this game, but have some real concerns for how it holds the interest & excitement of end-game players.

I know many end game players who feel the same way, some who are in my community & some who aren't, but I won't speak for them - I'm sure they'll chime in on this thread if they choose to

I'm not someone who constantly raises threads in the forums, but when I do it's generally because I'm really passionate about something which I feel needs attention. I raised a thread some time ago regarding the lack of player guild features in the game (with LOTS of suggestions) but had zero acknowledgement from anyone from ZOS, unfortunately:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/267148/eso-focus-on-social-where-is-it-player-guild-features-letter-to-zos#latest

Anyway! Back on track

While I love ESO, as time has gone on, and I have reached what you might call "end game" in ESO, I have found it increasingly difficult and frustrating, to find anything meaningful / rewarding / fun to do in the game (as a PvE player). I find myself in a situation where, I have been maximum level for over a year now, have been at CP cap for a long time, have managed to get all the main achievements for trials, dungeons, and most of the character ones too (including maxed out crafting etc). I've completed all the quests. I also have collected all, what you might call "best in slot" gear sets for my class & role. All maxed out to gold etc.. and have cleared all the trials & dungeons multiple times. I find myself in a really frustrating situation, where it feels I have no further goals or objectives in the game to aim for. I find there is no incentive or reward for re-visiting the dungeons & trials in the game (grinding them), no real reason to do them.

I cannot level up any further.
I cannot gain any more Champion Points.
There are no gear sets or items worth grinding dungeons / trials for.
There are no significant achievements to aim for.
There is no reason for me to craft anything. (apart from helping out guildies, and making a bit of money - but nothing to spend my money on haha)
There is no reason to do undaunted pledges (nothing to gain from doing them).
No real incentive to do any of the daily quests (in world or factions).
No incentive to do the dolmens or world bosses.
Etc Etc

Leaving me in a position, where I log into the game each day, but have nothing to do (by myself OR with my friends).
Now I know you could use the argument "Well, isn't it fun enough to just do the dungeons / trials / dailies, without the need for any reward?" And the answer is, sure, the first 300 times, but after that doing the same content over and over, just to "do the content", with no reward or any actual "progress" in the game, becomes very boring very quickly I'm afraid.

And this is the core issue here - there is no real progressive content, for end game players.
Meaning, for end game PvE players, it feels they have no way to actually progress any further in the game, it feels like we hit a brick wall - and can go no further.
And this makes the game increasingly boring and a struggle to keep playing.

I just find it such a huge shame, that there is SO MUCH content in this game (dungeons, trials, huge world, world bosses, dolmens, repeatable quests, factions, etc etc) - but NO incentive for end-game players to keep doing them. There is a huge opportunity here, and I really am struggling to understand why ZOS isn't taking advantage of the amazing world they have built, by implementing some simple systems which will give end-game players continuous goals to aim for, and a chance to actually continue to progress. Keeping them engaged in the game.

I have a large guild of 500 members, a community I love dearly and am very proud of. Honestly, it's my community that keeps me playing ESO, not the game itself. I find myself just doing the daily quests, to collect rare motifs (to sell, because I already have them), but have nothing to spend the gold on :P Occasionally I'll do a dungeon or trial, but that's just to help out fellow guildies / friends, not because I actually enjoy or want to do the dungeons. The rest of my time spent in game, is just socialising and chatting with my guild. I miss "playing" the game, and am desperate for ZOS to introduce some real progressive content in the game.

Now before everyone jumps down my throat with "But ZOS have done an awesome job at introducing new DLC & content, really regularly, such as thieves guild, dark brotherhood, shadows of the hist, etc... - so how can you say there isn't content for end-game players to do??". I knew you'd say that The problem with all the DLC, is that they seem to be designed as content which you play once, and then it's over (similar to a single player game). New dungeons, or zones (with quests) come out, we all get excited, 3 weeks later we've completed all the new quests, we might spend a few more weeks getting the new achievements, but then ITS OVER.... back to square one. No real reason to go back and continue to do the repeatable quests in those new places. No reward or progress. So introducing this new content in DLC's is only a very short temporary fix, for us end-game PvE players.

Again, what the game NEEDS, are systems which allow end-game players to go back and enjoy all the repeatable solo & group content, with the feeling that everytime we do that, it's all contributing towards our characters real progress. There are some really simple, tried and tested ways, ZOS can do this.

Here are some ideas, but I'm sure ZOS can think of many other creative ways, to keep their end-game players engaged:

1. Token / Currency system for PvE (similar to Tel Var)

This is one very simple and easy, tried and tested system which could help. Introduce one (or several) new currencies in the game, which can ONLY be earned by going back and completing dungeons, trials, daily quests, dolmens, etc... By doing this content, you will ALWAYS be rewarded with SOME of this currency. Have vendors located in the game, where you can spend said currency, on the most competitive (highest tier) rare armour sets, which can't be acquired anywhere else. You can of course put anything in those stores, but they need to be attractive enough, and meaningful enough, to be a real incentive for people to grind said currency. (If the items you can get from drops / guild trader / crafted is superior, then again, people won't grind the currency, back to square one). You can even tie this token system into the in-game factions (mages guild, fighters guild, etc...) This would finally give us end-game PvE players, a real incentive to keep going back to do all the repeatable content. Oh, and the prices need to be EXPENSIVE - this is to ensure that we keep going back, and keep grinding, keep making progress. If you can buy everything in 2 weeks of grinding, doesn't really solve the problem.

2. Faction (Guild) Reputation

You have an amazing opportunity already in the game, with mages guild, fighters guild, undaunted, etc... Again, this COULD be a real fantastic way for players to progress in the game, at end-game. Simply raise the maximum cap for each faction, significantly. Expand the ways in which you can gain reputation for each faction (incorporating dungeons, trials, dailies, etc...). Make it a very long & challenging journey to finally reach cap. Introduce faction vendors (such as Mages Guild store) where the higher your reputation rises, the better rewards unlock in the store, for you to purchase. You can still make those items expensive to purchase (in gold or tokens) so there is still more "work to do" in order to actually buy the items. This would be a really fun way for players to continue to interact with the factions, and again, real "progressive content" for us end-game players.

There are many ways you could model the above 2 suggestions . The beauty of these systems is that players are gauranteed to make "real progress", every time they complete any of the repeatable content (even if they don't get any useful items from the content itself). The fact that they will ALWAYS get some of these "tokens" or "Reputation" means that there is ALWAYS an incentive & reward for completing the content. Particularly because the items that you can then acquire, with enough reputation or tokens, or both - are some of the best & most saught after in the game!

3. Introduce new, rare, and even more superior armour sets to dungeons

Another simple fix, would be simply introducing new armour sets to the existing dungeons / trials - however ensure that they truly are superior to all currently existing gear (significantly) and ensure that their drop rate is very low. This would give us a new incentive & reason to go back to the dungeons / trials, and grind them. "What about crafters??" Well if you want to address that at the same time, you could introduce (at the same time) new gear sets which can be crafted, but require new VERY RARE materials, which can only be obtained from the dungeons / trials. Again, an incentive & reward for crafters enjoying the PvE repeatable content too.

I have several other potential ideas, but I fear this thread is long enough already haha.

I know that I'm not alone in this frustration, and I already have many friends who have left ESO, and headed to other MMO's, to get that very needed feeling of being able to REALLY progress at end-game, as a PvE player. Most other MMO's have similar systems to what I described above, however it doesn't HAVE to be those. I'm sure the folk at ZOS can put their heads together, and come up with creative solutions which will address this very real issue. I merely offered those suggestions, because I'm not one of those who just moans about things, without offering solutions or alternative ideas. As you see from my forum activity, I'm not a serial forum moaner at all actually

I just really love this game, and have enjoyed my time with the game, but right now (with great sadness) it's just my community who are keeping me playing the game. (if you call logging in, grinding dailies, selling motifs, "playing").

This really is a cry for help, from someone who LOVES the game, and has built an amazing community in ESO, and genuinely pray that something will happen for us end-game PvE players.
If anyone else feels the same, feel free to drop your thoughts, and feel free to share your ideas. Let's help ZOS to address this issue, rather than just complain about it.

Thanks for reading this VERY long thread lol. Here's hoping for an exciting, successful and FUN 2017 with ESO!

A passionate ESO player and community leader
Bel

ps. Apologies if this topic has already been raised somewhere else on the forum!

Well kudos to you. This was a well thought out articulate post. I have been thinking these exact same thoughts since the end of 2015. I've followed eso through announced ,production, beta which I was a phase one player.

From what I can see Eso took a major turn in 2015. They started to back peddle on features and things they were going to add shortly after Craglorn was added and delay projections. They stretched what they said would be a six month process of vr removal to 18 months. The major change in development came right when Paul sage and some other lead designers were cut from ESO.

Eso went from our end game will be trials and adventure zones , to Dlc's and the game is a online Rpg not the traditional MMO from Matt Fior interviews and statements. For me when they dropped the TG & DB guilds with a solo centric design no actives and no pregression. I knew the game was in an internal upheaval. Either the bulk of the team was working on a new project or Eso was going into milk mode.And when they hired the same company post production to handle the "crown store" that devolved Tor's, and Neverwinter gem store. I knew I was done.

The last two dlc's they have released are completely solo. Aside from the Hist dungeons and IC which I loved and actually kept me playing for a few weeks . I don't see Eso doing any of the things you and I enjoy in MMO's. They have redesigned the whole core of the game to not need roles all the pledges are done with 4 dps or 3 dps and a heal, the gear progression is non existing meaning you don't really need any of the dropped gear to perform end game trials.Right now ESO is designing itself for the churn base player, and the barbie doll crown store player.

No before anyone comes in and starts telling me give it time and I've rushed through the game you can stop. Almost every second Gen AAA mmo at 3 years post launch had 2 or 3 major expansions with Multi layered AA systems, several tiers of raiding, 2 level cap increases, housing, multiple tiers of single group dungeons that taught you techniques and mechanics required for raiding. Some added classes, races, and in the case of EQ2 they added dlc's with more questiong,stories gear and epic questlines with major reward systems along the way.

EQ 1 &2 , Aoc, Lotro,Rift, Swtor hell even Vanguard, all added more content and game expanding systems with smaller sales , smaller sub base, and with tools that were harder to develop content with. Sorry I sound negative but the corporate MMO genre is taking greed to far. Eso is in milk mode it's not in let's build a awesome game on a five year plan like they originally said.

Nail on head right there, sadly. They don't care for end game player, hardcore raiders etc, that is for all to see!

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

Belazarus wrote: »

@THEDKEXPERIENCE

Thanks for the question, and no offence taken at all, it's a great question.

It's right to assume that I am really a PvE centric player. I do not mind a bit of casual PvP, but I'm certainly not a "competitive" PvP player in that sense.

I can also only answer your question, for me personally, and can't speak for others of course.

The reason that I enjoy PvE content, is that I enjoy playing with friends, to take on challenges & objectives together. I enjoy the amazing PvE environments that MMO's (including ESO) has to offer, and enjoy discovering & mastering the mechanics of the various bosses. I enjoy the feeling of succeeding when we finally complete a tough dungeon or raid. Doing this with friends, is a great and fun way to enjoy games such as MMO's. I also enjoy the journey of constantly improving your character, as you complete this PvE content with your friends.

Of course, there comes a time where you HAVE mastered the dungeons, and have indeed become very familiar with all the mechanics etc. At that point, the "enjoyment" comes from going back to those dungeons (or other PvE activities) with your friends, completing them again, knowing that there is a "chance" that you could get something really useful from the activity - or at the very least you will gain something from it which will aid in your ongoing mission, to improve your character (be that gear, skills, etc...). The "goal" in effect, is to continue to improve your character, while having fun with your friends taking on challenging content.

I realise that PvP, you do get some of these experiences - but it's different, in the fact that the goal is predominantly about defeating your enemies (other players) in order to complete objectives (such as capturing forts etc). I totally get how PvP is a hugely fun and rewarding experience for MANY players. But I've also been around MMO's long enough to have experienced some GREAT games that allow you to "continue" to progress your character (in BOTH PvE or PvP). There doesn't need to be a reason why PvE character progression should "stop", forcing you to move into PvP. I know you can introduce systems that means you are always progressing your character - be that in PvP or PvE.

I really hope this answers your question, and while I know not many will agree, these are my personal thoughts (and indeed those of many of my friends).

Thanks again for all your input guys, I really appreciate it.

Bel

Bel this is a very MMO aproach to the game i think were the player community starts to diverge is why have the casual Solo RPG player meeting a MMo or in other words the churn player base. which is exactly where this game is targeting its content right now. Your apporach is exactly how i approach MMO's, like a MMO the most important part of the MMO is the second M to me. to me that part does not mean i do solo things with otehr people arouind me or play content that does not require an relationship with those that i play with or hell even communicate with them. I dont want to go into a dungeon and the only thing that required is my indivdual performance of DPs to succeed in the dungeon or normal trial.

To me content is not a single playe zone with no releavance to my chr's prgression that i can do solo. honetly the content of DB and TG would be considered lvling content but ummm there were no levels. aside from the trial it did nothing for end game dynamics .SOTH was quite enjoyable but those two dungeons were hardly worth 15 bucks. i subscribe so it really does not bother me anyhow.

idk · January 2017

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Belazarus wrote: »

Greetings once again fellow Tamriel travellers!

I hope you all had a lovely festive period and wish you& your families all a very happy 2017!
Really looking forward to what 2017 has in store for ESO.

So firstly, a quick introduction! I'm Belazarus (call me Bel), I'm the guild leader of Alith, a social, PvE, respectful community with 500 active members (alitheso.com). Our guild has been going for 7 years now, we always stick with 1 MMO and have been present in ESO (EU) since beta. We're very active, have daily raids & events, and also run a well known ESO podcast called Alith-Cast, you can find us on YouTube and Twitch! I have always loved the Elder Scrolls series, and have always been an MMO player, so ESO is the dream game for me. I still love the game, and my community are equally passionate about ESO and we all really want it to continue to succeed & grow. I say all of this, so that you understand this is NOT a "moan" thread, but a genuine cry for help, because I love this game, but have some real concerns for how it holds the interest & excitement of end-game players.

I know many end game players who feel the same way, some who are in my community & some who aren't, but I won't speak for them - I'm sure they'll chime in on this thread if they choose to

I'm not someone who constantly raises threads in the forums, but when I do it's generally because I'm really passionate about something which I feel needs attention. I raised a thread some time ago regarding the lack of player guild features in the game (with LOTS of suggestions) but had zero acknowledgement from anyone from ZOS, unfortunately:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/267148/eso-focus-on-social-where-is-it-player-guild-features-letter-to-zos#latest

Anyway! Back on track

While I love ESO, as time has gone on, and I have reached what you might call "end game" in ESO, I have found it increasingly difficult and frustrating, to find anything meaningful / rewarding / fun to do in the game (as a PvE player). I find myself in a situation where, I have been maximum level for over a year now, have been at CP cap for a long time, have managed to get all the main achievements for trials, dungeons, and most of the character ones too (including maxed out crafting etc). I've completed all the quests. I also have collected all, what you might call "best in slot" gear sets for my class & role. All maxed out to gold etc.. and have cleared all the trials & dungeons multiple times. I find myself in a really frustrating situation, where it feels I have no further goals or objectives in the game to aim for. I find there is no incentive or reward for re-visiting the dungeons & trials in the game (grinding them), no real reason to do them.

I cannot level up any further.
I cannot gain any more Champion Points.
There are no gear sets or items worth grinding dungeons / trials for.
There are no significant achievements to aim for.
There is no reason for me to craft anything. (apart from helping out guildies, and making a bit of money - but nothing to spend my money on haha)
There is no reason to do undaunted pledges (nothing to gain from doing them).
No real incentive to do any of the daily quests (in world or factions).
No incentive to do the dolmens or world bosses.
Etc Etc

Leaving me in a position, where I log into the game each day, but have nothing to do (by myself OR with my friends).
Now I know you could use the argument "Well, isn't it fun enough to just do the dungeons / trials / dailies, without the need for any reward?" And the answer is, sure, the first 300 times, but after that doing the same content over and over, just to "do the content", with no reward or any actual "progress" in the game, becomes very boring very quickly I'm afraid.

And this is the core issue here - there is no real progressive content, for end game players.
Meaning, for end game PvE players, it feels they have no way to actually progress any further in the game, it feels like we hit a brick wall - and can go no further.
And this makes the game increasingly boring and a struggle to keep playing.

I just find it such a huge shame, that there is SO MUCH content in this game (dungeons, trials, huge world, world bosses, dolmens, repeatable quests, factions, etc etc) - but NO incentive for end-game players to keep doing them. There is a huge opportunity here, and I really am struggling to understand why ZOS isn't taking advantage of the amazing world they have built, by implementing some simple systems which will give end-game players continuous goals to aim for, and a chance to actually continue to progress. Keeping them engaged in the game.

I have a large guild of 500 members, a community I love dearly and am very proud of. Honestly, it's my community that keeps me playing ESO, not the game itself. I find myself just doing the daily quests, to collect rare motifs (to sell, because I already have them), but have nothing to spend the gold on :P Occasionally I'll do a dungeon or trial, but that's just to help out fellow guildies / friends, not because I actually enjoy or want to do the dungeons. The rest of my time spent in game, is just socialising and chatting with my guild. I miss "playing" the game, and am desperate for ZOS to introduce some real progressive content in the game.

Now before everyone jumps down my throat with "But ZOS have done an awesome job at introducing new DLC & content, really regularly, such as thieves guild, dark brotherhood, shadows of the hist, etc... - so how can you say there isn't content for end-game players to do??". I knew you'd say that The problem with all the DLC, is that they seem to be designed as content which you play once, and then it's over (similar to a single player game). New dungeons, or zones (with quests) come out, we all get excited, 3 weeks later we've completed all the new quests, we might spend a few more weeks getting the new achievements, but then ITS OVER.... back to square one. No real reason to go back and continue to do the repeatable quests in those new places. No reward or progress. So introducing this new content in DLC's is only a very short temporary fix, for us end-game PvE players.

Again, what the game NEEDS, are systems which allow end-game players to go back and enjoy all the repeatable solo & group content, with the feeling that everytime we do that, it's all contributing towards our characters real progress. There are some really simple, tried and tested ways, ZOS can do this.

Here are some ideas, but I'm sure ZOS can think of many other creative ways, to keep their end-game players engaged:

1. Token / Currency system for PvE (similar to Tel Var)

This is one very simple and easy, tried and tested system which could help. Introduce one (or several) new currencies in the game, which can ONLY be earned by going back and completing dungeons, trials, daily quests, dolmens, etc... By doing this content, you will ALWAYS be rewarded with SOME of this currency. Have vendors located in the game, where you can spend said currency, on the most competitive (highest tier) rare armour sets, which can't be acquired anywhere else. You can of course put anything in those stores, but they need to be attractive enough, and meaningful enough, to be a real incentive for people to grind said currency. (If the items you can get from drops / guild trader / crafted is superior, then again, people won't grind the currency, back to square one). You can even tie this token system into the in-game factions (mages guild, fighters guild, etc...) This would finally give us end-game PvE players, a real incentive to keep going back to do all the repeatable content. Oh, and the prices need to be EXPENSIVE - this is to ensure that we keep going back, and keep grinding, keep making progress. If you can buy everything in 2 weeks of grinding, doesn't really solve the problem.

2. Faction (Guild) Reputation

You have an amazing opportunity already in the game, with mages guild, fighters guild, undaunted, etc... Again, this COULD be a real fantastic way for players to progress in the game, at end-game. Simply raise the maximum cap for each faction, significantly. Expand the ways in which you can gain reputation for each faction (incorporating dungeons, trials, dailies, etc...). Make it a very long & challenging journey to finally reach cap. Introduce faction vendors (such as Mages Guild store) where the higher your reputation rises, the better rewards unlock in the store, for you to purchase. You can still make those items expensive to purchase (in gold or tokens) so there is still more "work to do" in order to actually buy the items. This would be a really fun way for players to continue to interact with the factions, and again, real "progressive content" for us end-game players.

There are many ways you could model the above 2 suggestions . The beauty of these systems is that players are gauranteed to make "real progress", every time they complete any of the repeatable content (even if they don't get any useful items from the content itself). The fact that they will ALWAYS get some of these "tokens" or "Reputation" means that there is ALWAYS an incentive & reward for completing the content. Particularly because the items that you can then acquire, with enough reputation or tokens, or both - are some of the best & most saught after in the game!

3. Introduce new, rare, and even more superior armour sets to dungeons

Another simple fix, would be simply introducing new armour sets to the existing dungeons / trials - however ensure that they truly are superior to all currently existing gear (significantly) and ensure that their drop rate is very low. This would give us a new incentive & reason to go back to the dungeons / trials, and grind them. "What about crafters??" Well if you want to address that at the same time, you could introduce (at the same time) new gear sets which can be crafted, but require new VERY RARE materials, which can only be obtained from the dungeons / trials. Again, an incentive & reward for crafters enjoying the PvE repeatable content too.

I have several other potential ideas, but I fear this thread is long enough already haha.

I know that I'm not alone in this frustration, and I already have many friends who have left ESO, and headed to other MMO's, to get that very needed feeling of being able to REALLY progress at end-game, as a PvE player. Most other MMO's have similar systems to what I described above, however it doesn't HAVE to be those. I'm sure the folk at ZOS can put their heads together, and come up with creative solutions which will address this very real issue. I merely offered those suggestions, because I'm not one of those who just moans about things, without offering solutions or alternative ideas. As you see from my forum activity, I'm not a serial forum moaner at all actually

I just really love this game, and have enjoyed my time with the game, but right now (with great sadness) it's just my community who are keeping me playing the game. (if you call logging in, grinding dailies, selling motifs, "playing").

This really is a cry for help, from someone who LOVES the game, and has built an amazing community in ESO, and genuinely pray that something will happen for us end-game PvE players.
If anyone else feels the same, feel free to drop your thoughts, and feel free to share your ideas. Let's help ZOS to address this issue, rather than just complain about it.

Thanks for reading this VERY long thread lol. Here's hoping for an exciting, successful and FUN 2017 with ESO!

A passionate ESO player and community leader
Bel

ps. Apologies if this topic has already been raised somewhere else on the forum!

Well kudos to you. This was a well thought out articulate post. I have been thinking these exact same thoughts since the end of 2015. I've followed eso through announced ,production, beta which I was a phase one player.

From what I can see Eso took a major turn in 2015. They started to back peddle on features and things they were going to add shortly after Craglorn was added and delay projections. They stretched what they said would be a six month process of vr removal to 18 months. The major change in development came right when Paul sage and some other lead designers were cut from ESO.

Eso went from our end game will be trials and adventure zones , to Dlc's and the game is a online Rpg not the traditional MMO from Matt Fior interviews and statements. For me when they dropped the TG & DB guilds with a solo centric design no actives and no pregression. I knew the game was in an internal upheaval. Either the bulk of the team was working on a new project or Eso was going into milk mode.And when they hired the same company post production to handle the "crown store" that devolved Tor's, and Neverwinter gem store. I knew I was done.

The last two dlc's they have released are completely solo. Aside from the Hist dungeons and IC which I loved and actually kept me playing for a few weeks . I don't see Eso doing any of the things you and I enjoy in MMO's. They have redesigned the whole core of the game to not need roles all the pledges are done with 4 dps or 3 dps and a heal, the gear progression is non existing meaning you don't really need any of the dropped gear to perform end game trials.Right now ESO is designing itself for the churn base player, and the barbie doll crown store player.

No before anyone comes in and starts telling me give it time and I've rushed through the game you can stop. Almost every second Gen AAA mmo at 3 years post launch had 2 or 3 major expansions with Multi layered AA systems, several tiers of raiding, 2 level cap increases, housing, multiple tiers of single group dungeons that taught you techniques and mechanics required for raiding. Some added classes, races, and in the case of EQ2 they added dlc's with more questiong,stories gear and epic questlines with major reward systems along the way.

EQ 1 &2 , Aoc, Lotro,Rift, Swtor hell even Vanguard, all added more content and game expanding systems with smaller sales , smaller sub base, and with tools that were harder to develop content with. Sorry I sound negative but the corporate MMO genre is taking greed to far. Eso is in milk mode it's not in let's build a awesome game on a five year plan like they originally said.

I agree Zos is very much behind adding end game content, though I will point out that some of your points Zos has accomplished.

Zos has increased the level cap 3 times. Two significant expansions have occurred with a couple smaller ones. It is true end game content of raids that have been severely lacking.

Dungeons are multi tier. Besides the obvious DLC dungeons require more skill, the original dungeons did push people to improve their skill. They still exist. However, Zos does not differentiate them from what has been added.

In the end, I do agree that Zos does not seem to be building upon the game at a rate worthy of AAA consideration. A good game for now, but lacks the content investment that other games such as WoW and SWTOR have made.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom To be honest, Zos seems to be interested in keeping more casual players interested and merely offering the raiding community a tidbit every couple of years. This is not the way to keep a game community strong overall. Zos will lose their good theorycrafters and strong players that end up helping the other groups. Once the occurs the level of the game drops. Well, it already occurred once in mass just over 18 months ago with the year long drought of meaningful content.

Belazarus · January 2017

Thanks guys - some really valuable contributions here!

Wifeaggro13 · January 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Belazarus wrote: »

Greetings once again fellow Tamriel travellers!

I hope you all had a lovely festive period and wish you& your families all a very happy 2017!
Really looking forward to what 2017 has in store for ESO.

So firstly, a quick introduction! I'm Belazarus (call me Bel), I'm the guild leader of Alith, a social, PvE, respectful community with 500 active members (alitheso.com). Our guild has been going for 7 years now, we always stick with 1 MMO and have been present in ESO (EU) since beta. We're very active, have daily raids & events, and also run a well known ESO podcast called Alith-Cast, you can find us on YouTube and Twitch! I have always loved the Elder Scrolls series, and have always been an MMO player, so ESO is the dream game for me. I still love the game, and my community are equally passionate about ESO and we all really want it to continue to succeed & grow. I say all of this, so that you understand this is NOT a "moan" thread, but a genuine cry for help, because I love this game, but have some real concerns for how it holds the interest & excitement of end-game players.

I know many end game players who feel the same way, some who are in my community & some who aren't, but I won't speak for them - I'm sure they'll chime in on this thread if they choose to

I'm not someone who constantly raises threads in the forums, but when I do it's generally because I'm really passionate about something which I feel needs attention. I raised a thread some time ago regarding the lack of player guild features in the game (with LOTS of suggestions) but had zero acknowledgement from anyone from ZOS, unfortunately:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/267148/eso-focus-on-social-where-is-it-player-guild-features-letter-to-zos#latest

Anyway! Back on track

While I love ESO, as time has gone on, and I have reached what you might call "end game" in ESO, I have found it increasingly difficult and frustrating, to find anything meaningful / rewarding / fun to do in the game (as a PvE player). I find myself in a situation where, I have been maximum level for over a year now, have been at CP cap for a long time, have managed to get all the main achievements for trials, dungeons, and most of the character ones too (including maxed out crafting etc). I've completed all the quests. I also have collected all, what you might call "best in slot" gear sets for my class & role. All maxed out to gold etc.. and have cleared all the trials & dungeons multiple times. I find myself in a really frustrating situation, where it feels I have no further goals or objectives in the game to aim for. I find there is no incentive or reward for re-visiting the dungeons & trials in the game (grinding them), no real reason to do them.

I cannot level up any further.
I cannot gain any more Champion Points.
There are no gear sets or items worth grinding dungeons / trials for.
There are no significant achievements to aim for.
There is no reason for me to craft anything. (apart from helping out guildies, and making a bit of money - but nothing to spend my money on haha)
There is no reason to do undaunted pledges (nothing to gain from doing them).
No real incentive to do any of the daily quests (in world or factions).
No incentive to do the dolmens or world bosses.
Etc Etc

Leaving me in a position, where I log into the game each day, but have nothing to do (by myself OR with my friends).
Now I know you could use the argument "Well, isn't it fun enough to just do the dungeons / trials / dailies, without the need for any reward?" And the answer is, sure, the first 300 times, but after that doing the same content over and over, just to "do the content", with no reward or any actual "progress" in the game, becomes very boring very quickly I'm afraid.

And this is the core issue here - there is no real progressive content, for end game players.
Meaning, for end game PvE players, it feels they have no way to actually progress any further in the game, it feels like we hit a brick wall - and can go no further.
And this makes the game increasingly boring and a struggle to keep playing.

I just find it such a huge shame, that there is SO MUCH content in this game (dungeons, trials, huge world, world bosses, dolmens, repeatable quests, factions, etc etc) - but NO incentive for end-game players to keep doing them. There is a huge opportunity here, and I really am struggling to understand why ZOS isn't taking advantage of the amazing world they have built, by implementing some simple systems which will give end-game players continuous goals to aim for, and a chance to actually continue to progress. Keeping them engaged in the game.

I have a large guild of 500 members, a community I love dearly and am very proud of. Honestly, it's my community that keeps me playing ESO, not the game itself. I find myself just doing the daily quests, to collect rare motifs (to sell, because I already have them), but have nothing to spend the gold on :P Occasionally I'll do a dungeon or trial, but that's just to help out fellow guildies / friends, not because I actually enjoy or want to do the dungeons. The rest of my time spent in game, is just socialising and chatting with my guild. I miss "playing" the game, and am desperate for ZOS to introduce some real progressive content in the game.

Now before everyone jumps down my throat with "But ZOS have done an awesome job at introducing new DLC & content, really regularly, such as thieves guild, dark brotherhood, shadows of the hist, etc... - so how can you say there isn't content for end-game players to do??". I knew you'd say that The problem with all the DLC, is that they seem to be designed as content which you play once, and then it's over (similar to a single player game). New dungeons, or zones (with quests) come out, we all get excited, 3 weeks later we've completed all the new quests, we might spend a few more weeks getting the new achievements, but then ITS OVER.... back to square one. No real reason to go back and continue to do the repeatable quests in those new places. No reward or progress. So introducing this new content in DLC's is only a very short temporary fix, for us end-game PvE players.

Again, what the game NEEDS, are systems which allow end-game players to go back and enjoy all the repeatable solo & group content, with the feeling that everytime we do that, it's all contributing towards our characters real progress. There are some really simple, tried and tested ways, ZOS can do this.

Here are some ideas, but I'm sure ZOS can think of many other creative ways, to keep their end-game players engaged:

1. Token / Currency system for PvE (similar to Tel Var)

This is one very simple and easy, tried and tested system which could help. Introduce one (or several) new currencies in the game, which can ONLY be earned by going back and completing dungeons, trials, daily quests, dolmens, etc... By doing this content, you will ALWAYS be rewarded with SOME of this currency. Have vendors located in the game, where you can spend said currency, on the most competitive (highest tier) rare armour sets, which can't be acquired anywhere else. You can of course put anything in those stores, but they need to be attractive enough, and meaningful enough, to be a real incentive for people to grind said currency. (If the items you can get from drops / guild trader / crafted is superior, then again, people won't grind the currency, back to square one). You can even tie this token system into the in-game factions (mages guild, fighters guild, etc...) This would finally give us end-game PvE players, a real incentive to keep going back to do all the repeatable content. Oh, and the prices need to be EXPENSIVE - this is to ensure that we keep going back, and keep grinding, keep making progress. If you can buy everything in 2 weeks of grinding, doesn't really solve the problem.

2. Faction (Guild) Reputation

You have an amazing opportunity already in the game, with mages guild, fighters guild, undaunted, etc... Again, this COULD be a real fantastic way for players to progress in the game, at end-game. Simply raise the maximum cap for each faction, significantly. Expand the ways in which you can gain reputation for each faction (incorporating dungeons, trials, dailies, etc...). Make it a very long & challenging journey to finally reach cap. Introduce faction vendors (such as Mages Guild store) where the higher your reputation rises, the better rewards unlock in the store, for you to purchase. You can still make those items expensive to purchase (in gold or tokens) so there is still more "work to do" in order to actually buy the items. This would be a really fun way for players to continue to interact with the factions, and again, real "progressive content" for us end-game players.

There are many ways you could model the above 2 suggestions . The beauty of these systems is that players are gauranteed to make "real progress", every time they complete any of the repeatable content (even if they don't get any useful items from the content itself). The fact that they will ALWAYS get some of these "tokens" or "Reputation" means that there is ALWAYS an incentive & reward for completing the content. Particularly because the items that you can then acquire, with enough reputation or tokens, or both - are some of the best & most saught after in the game!

3. Introduce new, rare, and even more superior armour sets to dungeons

Another simple fix, would be simply introducing new armour sets to the existing dungeons / trials - however ensure that they truly are superior to all currently existing gear (significantly) and ensure that their drop rate is very low. This would give us a new incentive & reason to go back to the dungeons / trials, and grind them. "What about crafters??" Well if you want to address that at the same time, you could introduce (at the same time) new gear sets which can be crafted, but require new VERY RARE materials, which can only be obtained from the dungeons / trials. Again, an incentive & reward for crafters enjoying the PvE repeatable content too.

I have several other potential ideas, but I fear this thread is long enough already haha.

I know that I'm not alone in this frustration, and I already have many friends who have left ESO, and headed to other MMO's, to get that very needed feeling of being able to REALLY progress at end-game, as a PvE player. Most other MMO's have similar systems to what I described above, however it doesn't HAVE to be those. I'm sure the folk at ZOS can put their heads together, and come up with creative solutions which will address this very real issue. I merely offered those suggestions, because I'm not one of those who just moans about things, without offering solutions or alternative ideas. As you see from my forum activity, I'm not a serial forum moaner at all actually

I just really love this game, and have enjoyed my time with the game, but right now (with great sadness) it's just my community who are keeping me playing the game. (if you call logging in, grinding dailies, selling motifs, "playing").

This really is a cry for help, from someone who LOVES the game, and has built an amazing community in ESO, and genuinely pray that something will happen for us end-game PvE players.
If anyone else feels the same, feel free to drop your thoughts, and feel free to share your ideas. Let's help ZOS to address this issue, rather than just complain about it.

Thanks for reading this VERY long thread lol. Here's hoping for an exciting, successful and FUN 2017 with ESO!

A passionate ESO player and community leader
Bel

ps. Apologies if this topic has already been raised somewhere else on the forum!

Well kudos to you. This was a well thought out articulate post. I have been thinking these exact same thoughts since the end of 2015. I've followed eso through announced ,production, beta which I was a phase one player.

From what I can see Eso took a major turn in 2015. They started to back peddle on features and things they were going to add shortly after Craglorn was added and delay projections. They stretched what they said would be a six month process of vr removal to 18 months. The major change in development came right when Paul sage and some other lead designers were cut from ESO.

Eso went from our end game will be trials and adventure zones , to Dlc's and the game is a online Rpg not the traditional MMO from Matt Fior interviews and statements. For me when they dropped the TG & DB guilds with a solo centric design no actives and no pregression. I knew the game was in an internal upheaval. Either the bulk of the team was working on a new project or Eso was going into milk mode.And when they hired the same company post production to handle the "crown store" that devolved Tor's, and Neverwinter gem store. I knew I was done.

The last two dlc's they have released are completely solo. Aside from the Hist dungeons and IC which I loved and actually kept me playing for a few weeks . I don't see Eso doing any of the things you and I enjoy in MMO's. They have redesigned the whole core of the game to not need roles all the pledges are done with 4 dps or 3 dps and a heal, the gear progression is non existing meaning you don't really need any of the dropped gear to perform end game trials.Right now ESO is designing itself for the churn base player, and the barbie doll crown store player.

No before anyone comes in and starts telling me give it time and I've rushed through the game you can stop. Almost every second Gen AAA mmo at 3 years post launch had 2 or 3 major expansions with Multi layered AA systems, several tiers of raiding, 2 level cap increases, housing, multiple tiers of single group dungeons that taught you techniques and mechanics required for raiding. Some added classes, races, and in the case of EQ2 they added dlc's with more questiong,stories gear and epic questlines with major reward systems along the way.

EQ 1 &2 , Aoc, Lotro,Rift, Swtor hell even Vanguard, all added more content and game expanding systems with smaller sales , smaller sub base, and with tools that were harder to develop content with. Sorry I sound negative but the corporate MMO genre is taking greed to far. Eso is in milk mode it's not in let's build a awesome game on a five year plan like they originally said.

I agree Zos is very much behind adding end game content, though I will point out that some of your points Zos has accomplished.

Zos has increased the level cap 3 times. Two significant expansions have occurred with a couple smaller ones. It is true end game content of raids that have been severely lacking.

Dungeons are multi tier. Besides the obvious DLC dungeons require more skill, the original dungeons did push people to improve their skill. They still exist. However, Zos does not differentiate them from what has been added.

In the end, I do agree that Zos does not seem to be building upon the game at a rate worthy of AAA consideration. A good game for now, but lacks the content investment that other games such as WoW and SWTOR have made.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom To be honest, Zos seems to be interested in keeping more casual players interested and merely offering the raiding community a tidbit every couple of years. This is not the way to keep a game community strong overall. Zos will lose their good theorycrafters and strong players that end up helping the other groups. Once the occurs the level of the game drops. Well, it already occurred once in mass just over 18 months ago with the year long drought of meaningful content.

I would agree with the level increase statement but it falls short on tradtion of lvl cap increases. The Vr rank were false implementation , cheap extensions to stretch out the game with out adding anything or changing anything. Level cap raises usually happen in 10 base lvls not the AA system extension. true level cap increases add actuall abilities usually its 10 lvls and a new class ability for every five levels. For me i dont consider the CP increases nor the VR increases lvl cap increases. it did nothing to evolove your Chr only passivley increase your damage output and resistances.It was the easy road and quite frankly they could not even do that right

Many people called ZOS out on the Vr increases when they said they were being removed then increased them 2 more times. it was done to extend the shelf life of the player base. hell the first one did not even offer a gear lvl increase.

jwboudreau1b16_ESO · January 2017

Great thread!

I still have so much more to do before I will ever be bored with ESO, but just as a reminder, we're getting housing in a monthish and we should get the yearly Road Ahead soon, detailing the plans for the year.

As for endgame content, I would love to see some just for fun activities. In Final Fantasy XIV, there's gambling games and the amazing Triple Triad. It would be nice if there were social events and games to engage with. It's things like this that make a tired world seem alive.

A great idea from the creators of Neverwinter is a quest creation system. You, the player, can either pick up a quest or create quests for others to do. It can be fun, interesting, and inspire the developers when considering future story content. There doesn't necessarily need to be rewards (above and beyond experience), but these kinds of community creations will keep many players playing the game more consistently and possibly shape the future of the game, as eluded to earlier.

They can add all of the rewards and grinds they can, but there will always be a point where you are lost with nothing to do. I would like to see some mechanics to make the world and community feel more alive.

alexkdd99 · January 2017

It seems that they have just made most of the items to easy to obtain. Really the only items that require much effort to obtain are certain vma weapons. And those usually aren't too much trouble if we are not taking traits into considerations.

But it seems zos wants things to be easy to obtain. I think a grind is good for any mmo. Just look at how much easier everything in the game is to obtain from what they use to be, with exception of trait specific vma weapons.

Want a certain monster mask? Well they are 100% drop rate. Want shoulders? Gold keys can be obtained from normal pledges and they are 100% chance to get from chest. This game has become a hand out game where everything is pretty much given out freely. Want gold jewelry? Just go to the golden vendor.

The problem is everything is way to easy to get. There is no progression left. Don't say pvp as that is also a joke. If people still cared about playing the game in pvp then maybe that would be different. But that is not the case, everyone just wants to farm ap. What do people want to farm ap for? Who knows as everything obtained from ap is also easy to get.

Don't get me wrong when they make the changes to increase drop rates I to get excited. But I realize that once I have all the items then I lose interest in playing the game.

TLDR I need that carrot to chase.

Belazarus · January 2017

"We need that carrot to chase" pretty much sums up everything! Well said @alexkdd99