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Why do people feel "Entitled" to partcipate in vet dungeons when they don't know the mechanics?
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User_Name✭✭✭Not having bothered reading another of these threads, I'm only going to reply to the headline.
How do you expect people to learn the mechanics, if you won't let them participate in the dungeon? "Paying it forward" is a tremendously beneficial thing that most PVE'ers seem completely alien to.
The dungeons aren't particularly difficult. You need to run them 2-3 times to have the mechanics nailed down, and from then on it's a total breeze (mostly).
If people had the patience to let people inexperienced with the dungeons do this, they would end up with a far larger population that actually knows the mechanics, and that would in turn be beneficial to themselves too.
I sometimes get the impression that this unwillingness among PVE'ers to do the sensible thing has to do with pride and self-image: If everyone knows the dungeons, if everyone knows it's a total breeze, there's little to no prestige in fashioning oneself as some sort of PVE overlord. There needs to be someone you can shout "OMG NOOOB!!!!!" at to maintain that over-inflated sense of self-worth.Edited by User_Name on December 31, 2016 12:31PM2 -
AntMan100673✭✭✭I've ran normal ICP many times, duo it with a friend.
First time doing vet ICP, I never knew those portals were actually useful until the tank explained to us after our first wipe.
I always assumed they were an annoyance and death if you got trapped in one with missing health lol.
^This.
OP's suggestion of learning mechanics on normal before trying vet doesn't work as most of the time on normal you either don't see or can ignore the mechanics.
The last boss in ICP is the perfect example, on normal I'd always ran away from the swirling vortex of certain death on the floor and it was only after getting one shotted in vet someone told me to go in it. I wasn't the only person in the group who didn't know so it cost us 1 wipe plus a few seconds for it to be explained, hardly the end of the world.EU - EP - Dunmer - Dragonknight - Magicka DPS - CP160
GT: AntMan1006731 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why do people fell entitled that they won't communicate ?
It's much better to discuss the plans of attack because even if ppl know the mechanics, they may not know your desired plans.
I believe the actual issue is in reverse of the OP.-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Hand_Bacon✭✭✭✭✭There is usually enough frustration for everyone in a PuG.
Its the nature of the beast and can be equally fun if you go into them with the right attitude.
I'm no saint and have had my fair share of frustrating runs...but that's usually due to unreal expectations.
On top of L2P issues there are simple things like age differences and language barriers.
You could have a pre-teen who knows little English grouping with a 70 year old retiree. (this was an actual group I was in)
#AlmostGood@ESO0 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Entitled? lmao it's a game, get over yourself
This.DigitalShibby wrote: »Because everyone has a right to play everything even if it's their first time. Why are so many entitled elitist players on this game? It was once your first time in a vet dungeon too. Let people learn, if you don't "have time for that" stay out of group finder.
This too.Best thing you can do is:
A) Don't be a jerk
Teach people who are willing to learn
C) have fun
If you do these things, you are less likely to face the "horror" of having a newer player in the group because more people will be better informed. Or just ask guildies to run it with you.
Also, this.No, it's you who is not entitled to pick the team mates the system found for you. If you want that, go a pick them yourself.
Sure, this.
Awe man, forget it, I'm running out of this.
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »Did you explain the mechanics to them?
I never really paid attention to the Flesh Abomination mechanics in normal, so your "baby steps" don't actually work there. Same with the last boss. in normal, I just heal through his blast rather than jump through the portals. So that's no practice for Vet either.
The only way you learn the mechanics for Vet is by doing it in vet.
Why should I waste my time explaining the mechanics in a vet dungeon run? Players should already know them by now. If they don't why would they join a vet dungeon run in the first place? Start with normal first, and then work your way up to vet.
Did Ruinz of Mazzatun hard mode the other day for the first time. We was a group of experienced players but only 1 in our group (the healer) had done it before. He took his time to explain the mechanics and we gave it maybe 10 tries before we decided to skip hard mode (it was becomming very late and out healer had to go). How this guy (healer) had the patience to try hardmode over and over again with us is still a mystery to me, but I appriciated it alot, since no one ever took time to do vet RoM with me and explain the mechanics.
Even tho I share your opinion about working your way from normal to vet in order to learn the dungeon, some dungeon have very different mechanics depending on if it´s normal or vet. As you said in the beginning of your post, you did this to yourself, the leason to be learned is not to do difficult vet dungeons with pugs. Do them with guildmates or friends who knows what to do.
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Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭When doing vet pug, expect less than perfect gear,rotation,cp, class understanding, boss mechanics understanding etc. CP is just one visible criteria, no idea what gear or skills someone will bring, they might only have their pvp gear and not respect skills for pve, and may have never been to today's pledge before.... Pugs are like a box of chocolates, sometimes you get all good stuff, sometimes you get bad/gross stuff, never know. Tank might just be a dps wearing a shield, healer might be a dps with a heal spell, and of course the dps might not break 10k dps... Pugs rarely ever go like a guild run with trials gear farming keys...0 -
Riptide✭✭✭✭✭
✭The word "entitled" nowadays is such a loaded word. It is bandied about by one particular party to folks who often don't understand how the "entitlement" system works in the United States, but who definitely get "those people are lazier/less "stand on their own" than me"...but are very often in reality beneficiaries of some of the actual entitlement programs that the demagogic politician opposes.
In other words, more often than not...this word does not mean what you think it means
Occam's razor/KISS - if the PUG system annoys you with clueless lowbies, join a guild, get some regulars to party with.
You'll hear this advice a lot because it is good advice.
It is easy to do. Takes little effort. Don't have to be outgoing. There is always, always room in a guild group for a competent, no nonsense person who has taken the time to gear and learn the mechanics. Birds of a feather, gravity, etc. PUGs aren't where you go looking for that.
Really, the time spent finding a guild and a regular group is less than that of a couple of bad dungeons. Takes one forum post and one or two lines in guild chat in an active guild you select. Its just that easy. Truly.
Esse quam videri.0 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »I admit that I tried to pug my way way into completing my undaunted pledges because nobody was on when I was on, and nobody from my guilds wanted to do pledges so I was forced to PUG.
Imperial City Prison - VET. Yes I know. I kinda did this to myself, but It went pretty good thus far. We manage to get pass the first boss (which is the first indicator to determine if I'm in a competent group or not) without a single wipe. We struggled a couple of times with the Ibomez the Flesh Sculptor, but we manage to get past him. Then comes the Flesh Abomination. Now a couple of players in my group didn't even know the mechanics, and we kept wiping... I'm sitting here thinking.... Why did they even participate in vet when they didn't even know the mechanics? Wouldn't it be a good idea to take baby steps? To start on normal and then work your way up to vet? Sounds like a good idea to me Eventually we defeat the boss. The Gravelight Sentry boss came next.... again those same players didn't even know the mechanics of the boss, and like the flesh Abomination we kept wiping. We wand up defeating him after a few dozen wipes.
The last boss.... YIKES! Wipe after wipe.... and more wipes... It got to the point where I could no longer take it, and then ported back to the wayshrine and then got the hell out before I lose all sense of reality, and punch my monitor out of extreme frustration.
Should I talk about COA2 attempt? Of course.... my PUG group couldn't even get past the first mini bosss that idles near the portal. I left that group almost immediately because nobody was rezzing.
My third attempt to do my pledges.... BC2.... Tank was not strong enough to sustain 3 daedroths... kept dying. He kept bringing them over to the boss when he was told not to do it. Healer refuses to throw shards and blue balls and kept DPSing the boss with jesus beam and heavy attacks from restro staff even when requested such skill to be passed around several times.
I swear... playing this game feels like I'm trapped in a Mels brooks movie.... especially High Anxiety.
If you pugged and you can't carry your pug, you're just a scum as they are.raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »Did you explain the mechanics to them?
I never really paid attention to the Flesh Abomination mechanics in normal, so your "baby steps" don't actually work there. Same with the last boss. in normal, I just heal through his blast rather than jump through the portals. So that's no practice for Vet either.
The only way you learn the mechanics for Vet is by doing it in vet.
Why should I waste my time explaining the mechanics in a vet dungeon run? Players should already know them by now. If they don't why would they join a vet dungeon run in the first place? Start with normal first, and then work your way up to vet.
You obviously haven't played normal versions of the 4-man dungeons. If you can't be bothered to explain mechanics to newer players, then don't pug. Simple as that. Yes, you got it right the first time, you have no one but yourself to blame for pugging. I joined my first vet dungeon when I was v1, and the v14s were kind enough to explain to me the mechanic of that dungeon. That's probably why I have more patience when I pug. And I don't expect a lot from anyone when I pug.
Please don't come here to the forums just because you can't carry your Pick-Up Group, either learn to adjust to the group or just don't do it at all, or else you really are just whining.Edited by me_ming on December 31, 2016 3:08PM"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]0 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seriously, let's be realistic if you want to grind out some gear/helm you have to run the content 20-30 times, looking at you BSW set, do you really want to explain the content to the current group in your pug everytime? We arguing that you should be patient and helpful, everytime....1 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭Best advise I can think of is this, solo absolutely everything that you can (coa1/vma...) try to do Vet runs with friends and guilds at prime time, try to only pug normal runs since they are so easy doesn't really matter what the pugs do as long as they aren't AFK the whole time, most normal runs are solo able anyway.0 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »Best thing you can do is:
A) Don't be a jerk Teach people who are willing to learn
C) have fun
If you do these things, you are less likely to face the "horror" of having a newer player in the group because more people will be better informed. Or just ask guildies to run it with you.
I don't know how many times I've asked healers to throw me blue balls (Mystic orbs) to help with my magicka regen, and was ignored.
If you're pugging, slot eledrain. That's why someone was telling you to L2P. Because your trial group isn't your pick up group. Do NOT expect to have the same buffs, the same skills, the same sets as that of your trial groups. The two things are beyond compare.
I'm a healer (in trials), when I DPS vet dungeons and I pug, I am responsible for my resources (eledrain, harness magicka, etc), if I notice the healer or someone else is using eledrain, or if my templar healer uses repentance or shards, I change up my skills. But I learn to adjust to my group, and still maintain my dps. Do NOT expect strangers to know what you're playstyle is, especially when they are still learning the mechanic of the dungeon.Edited by me_ming on December 31, 2016 3:29PM"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]3 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭
People who don't know the mechanic aren't necessarily bad, are they? Maybe if you teach them they can be better than you.
And yes, if you can't carry your pick up group, how different are you from them?Edited by me_ming on December 31, 2016 3:45PM"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]0 -
DPShiro✭✭✭✭✭
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People who don't know the mechanic aren't necessarily bad, are they? Maybe if you teach them they can be better than you.
And yes, if you can't carry your pick up group, how different are you from them?
So there is not a difference with expecting people to do their role and part correctly (25%) and expecting a player to carry a whole team (100%) and do all 4 roles?
Really?~ Gryphon Heart ~
~ Immortal Redeemer ~
~ Grand Master Crafter ~
~ Master Angler ~
~ Former Emperor ~5 -
Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DRXHarbinger wrote: »raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »DRXHarbinger wrote: »You can solo warden easy enough....you let the group down...you shouldn't run Vet prison either. L2p
If your current build is setup for it, yes. It would be easy. Unfortunately my current setups are builds for group content.... vet trials.
Exactly....any high dps build can take warden solo. That's a poor excuse. If you can't take a vet boss like warden wearing a trial set up then...well....l2p.
Let me guess a quick ground toon with no self heal at all or no shield.
Wow you must be a tough cool guy talking like that. If you want to argue with people, make sure not to make yourself look like a giant joke.4 -
Riga_Mortis✭✭✭✭✭Yes they are "entitled" to play the content they paid for, doesn't matter if they can complete it or not.XBOX 1X
GT - TAGNUTZ2 -
Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There are times I wish ESO had a built-in voice chat system for the PC so I could explain some of the mechanics on some of the pugs. I usually don't type that fast and many times the group don't respond to "Hold up" or "stop" messages so that you can type something up. It's not a problem with my guildies and our TeamSpeak server and we find it's invaluable when working on some of the harder content. Communication is the key to a less stressful dungeon run.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If I can solo it I just sit back and let the leadet lead while taking care of everything in the background pretending to need a leader
If im new to it, i follow orders, but definitely need em
Just cause i may be the strongest in group doesn't mean I'm the smartest0 -
DRXHarbinger✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DRXHarbinger wrote: »raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »DRXHarbinger wrote: »You can solo warden easy enough....you let the group down...you shouldn't run Vet prison either. L2p
If your current build is setup for it, yes. It would be easy. Unfortunately my current setups are builds for group content.... vet trials.
Exactly....any high dps build can take warden solo. That's a poor excuse. If you can't take a vet boss like warden wearing a trial set up then...well....l2p.
Let me guess a quick ground toon with no self heal at all or no shield.
Wow you must be a tough cool guy talking like that. If you want to argue with people, make sure not to make yourself look like a giant joke.
Explain?PC Master Race
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8 Flawless Toons, all Classes.
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Every Skyshard
Down With BOP!0 -
heaven13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Seriously, let's be realistic if you want to grind out some gear/helm you have to run the content 20-30 times, looking at you BSW set, do you really want to explain the content to the current group in your pug everytime? We arguing that you should be patient and helpful, everytime....
Because being considerate of people in general, or people who haven't played that particular dungeon before is such a burden? Why is this such a hard thing to ask?Edited by heaven13 on December 31, 2016 6:09PMPC/NAMountain God | Leave No Bone Unbroken | Apex Predator | Pure Lunacy | Depths Defier | No Rest for the Wicked | In Defiance of DeathMeet my characters :
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I have almost all achievements related to vet dungeons (only miss HM for the Hist ones) and I think that they are all hard, but they are veteran so it is ok.
New players going there should now that it is hard content and some of them like Banished Cells II or Crypt of Hearts II, have HM that are very specific and SOMETIMES requiere to stop DPS on boss.
Also I heard a lot of PUG saying "we have low DPS". All vet dungeons can be completed with a DPS strategy but, ironically, is not the best way for newbies.
The best thing to do is to talk to the other players in your group. And if that doesn't work is better to just leave.
Sometimes I see people just playing bad and the truth is that a vet dungeon is not the place to learn basic mechanics.
So this will continue to happen. ZOS can't do much. In the end, is something that the community have to fix on their own.Ormesson Stamina NB 2H-Bow0 -
newtinmpls✭✭✭✭✭
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So there is not a difference with expecting people to do their role and part correctly (25%) and expecting a player to carry a whole team (100%) and do all 4 roles?
Really?
I think the similarity is that in both cases there is one particular player who is 1-claiming to understand the problem, AND 2-not actually communicating to improve the situation.Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
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House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis0 -
TheSeer✭✭✭If anyone actually remembers Norm and Vet had different mechanics. Either because the bosses acted different or bosses got replaced. The old Vet dungeons then became Norm 2 dungeons, save for the DLC dungeons and a couple others. Then everything changed from Normal dungeons 1 & 2 to OMGWTHHAPPENED dungeons filled with one shot mechanics and 0 imagination.Edited by TheSeer on January 1, 2017 3:03AM
• Alliance: Alderi Dominion / Ebonheart Pact •
• Gamer Tag: Unspoken Seer •
• Platform: Xbox One •
• Server: NA •1 -
Funkopotamus✭✭✭✭✭If everyone agreed with your thoughts here.. Then nobody would ever learn to do Vet dailies at all..
I think we have all been where you are at right now. I remember trying to take some newbies through BC on my tank and my friend was healing.. We had one DPS doing ONLY heavy attack with his bow.. I am serious.. He was like..
TWANG....................................
TWANG..........
Twang.................
I wanted to cry, but oh well....
Best thing to do is make an attempted to help them and explain the fights, or just do nto group with anyone you do not know because hopping into pugs expecting them to no death/speed run you through them is only setting yourself up for tears man. lol
Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!" Sallington0 -
Pallio✭✭✭✭✭
✭My favorate lately is the dps guy goes WW on boss, cause he ran out of stam.... I remember those days, and I know several people have legit WW dps set-up etc. This guy was just fresh from hitting 50 on this character. I was tanking so who cares stuff was dieing and we won..0 -
Reykice✭✭✭✭✭The cure is simple usually:
1. Kick low cp DPS... some are good but 90% are not and will die a lot so why take the chance with some low hp cp. Tanks and heal are ok as they can do theie role with low cp but i have never seen a low cp pull good dps.
2. Kick bad players, if they do not know the dungeon or read a guide not your problem you are there to do the dungeon not provide learning courses.
3. If you have only low cp, leave... let them enjoy wiping and taking 1h to do a 20 min dungeon you have on farm status.
My advice is wait for the first trash pack, if dps is low kick until its good enough. Being a pug you must be reasonable tho.... 30k dps is elite so too much to ask.
But 20k single is fine and you can see from how trash melts or not if they have it.
Do not get baited by the trolls, you have the right to expect people who do vet to know it and be well geared. If all else fails quit fast so you do not waste time because other people are not prepared.
That is why ZOS made kick a group thing, if you get kicked your group think you suck so its not just one guy. Deal with it and improve.1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The cure is simple usually:
1. Kick low cp DPS... some are good but 90% are not and will die a lot so why take the chance with some low hp cp. Tanks and heal are ok as they can do theie role with low cp but i have never seen a low cp pull good dps.
2. Kick bad players, if they do not know the dungeon or read a guide not your problem you are there to do the dungeon not provide learning courses.
3. If you have only low cp, leave... let them enjoy wiping and taking 1h to do a 20 min dungeon you have on farm status.
1. On the harder content, sure, but if you're talking Banished Cells 1 or something, low CP often times is not that much of an issue. The thing about harder content though is not just the DPS difference, but also the fact that low CP means you also don't have the durability from the warrior trees or the sustain from the thief trees.
2. Totally agree. As long as you've given them a chance to prove themselves first that is. Can't assume people are bad just because they have low CP or haven't learned the mechanics yet. The good ones should pick up on the mechanics pretty quickly, especially if you tell them before hand. All it really takes is something like, "Focus adds when they show, avoid the floating ball of death." No need for a twenty minute lecture.
3. Again, depends on the dungeon. Several of them can be done fairly easily with low CP players on your team. On the other hand, if you join up for something like vCoA II and find everyone else in your party is double digit CP, then ABANDON SHIP!!!My advice is wait for the first trash pack, if dps is low kick until its good enough. Being a pug you must be reasonable tho.... 30k dps is elite so too much to ask.
But 20k single is fine and you can see from how trash melts or not if they have it.
Something to keep in mind on that is that the tank and the healer both will put out a fair amount of DPS themselves. So you might think the trash isn't melting fast enough and kick the other DPS only to find you have the same problem again until you just happen to get a really good glass cannon. I mention this because I actually did run into this problem a while back. I was doing alright, the other DPS was doing alright, but it turns out that the tank was just spamming taunts and holding down the block key, and the healer was just spamming one of the resto staff heals."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0
How do people learn if the entitled experts aren't going to share.