Why do people feel "Entitled" to partcipate in vet dungeons when they don't know the mechanics?

Glurin · December 2016

Ordinarily I'd agree that people should at least do the normal version first before they join up for vet. But you know what? We're usually just brute forcing the normal version so there's no reason for anyone to learn any mechanics.

I'll be honest. I've done both ICP and WGT normal twice now. I still haven't got any idea how any of the mechanics actually work beyond the obvious "Don't stand in the fire.". My original plan was to get familiar with the basics in normal before moving on to vet, but now I'm thinking I'll have to just dive in and frustrate people a few times. Online guides help, but they're no substitute for experience.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO · December 2016

To all the people pointing fingers saying "did you tell them how to do the mechanics?"

If people go to vet dungeons they are supposed to know at least most of the mechanics.

I mean I myself (600CP) have not yet went in vet ROM because I have not watched any of the numerous video tutorials available on youtube.

But uneducated people go to dungeons with the impression that someone is going to tell them what needs to be done there. If its only 1 person performing badly, I guess we will tell him what he needs to do so that we don't start all over again with a new member. But teaching 2 or 3 people the mechanics is just a waste of time.

Once when I started out I did not know how to tank vet WGT. A party member guided me what I need to do where he was not supposed to do so. We finished the dungeon, but I wasted a good 30 additional minutes of the other party members time where I could had used that time research on my own and done the dungeon without breaking a sweat.

KaleidoscopeEyz · December 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Did you explain the mechanics to

Why should I waste my time explaining the mechanics in a vet dungeon run? Players should already know them by now. If they don't why would they join a vet dungeon run in the first place? Start with normal first, and then work your way up to vet.

So you'd rather waste your time failing? You sound like a horrible teammate. Explain the mechanics it's not that hard

kevlarto_ESO · December 2016

Stridig wrote: »

Best thing you can do is:
A) Don't be a jerk
Teach people who are willing to learn
C) have fun

If you do these things, you are less likely to face the "horror" of having a newer player in the group because more people will be better informed. Or just ask guildies to run it with you.

This^^^ We were all newbies at one time, we all had the learn the mechanics, some folks watched videos of others, some folks like myself liked to learn it as I played it and only resorted to videos if we got stumped, but having friends or a guild to learn things with can help a lot.

raidentenshu_ESO · December 2016

Stridig wrote: »

Best thing you can do is:
A) Don't be a jerk
Teach people who are willing to learn
C) have fun

If you do these things, you are less likely to face the "horror" of having a newer player in the group because more people will be better informed. Or just ask guildies to run it with you.

Easier said then done when other players may not be willing to listen

I don't know how many times I've asked healers to throw me blue balls (Mystic orbs) to help with my magicka regen, and was ignored.

SquareSausage · December 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Easier said then done when other players may not be willing to listen

I don't know how many times I've asked healers to throw me blue balls (Mystic orbs) to help with my magicka regen, and was ignored.

You will prob find most dont have that skill even learned.

But on the other hand a player should not have to slot a skill as someone elses resources management arent self sustaining. Its a random dungeon, you will get all sorts of builds bashing their way around randoms. By doing so you are verging on ruining their experience even if they are doing a good job keeping people alive.

I know fine and well, what is expected of healers in raid environments as my healers are specced so, but the vast majority of people dont raid so wont be used to, or have learned certain skills you are accustomed to top healers running.

When I pug on my tank, its a blue moon when the healer throws a shard, i adjust and heavy attack if needed, which generally isnt.

BigBragg · December 2016

The original post would be far more entertaining if it was intended as satire. I enjoy a good rub of social commentary.

Glurin · December 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

Stridig wrote: »

Best thing you can do is:
A) Don't be a jerk
Teach people who are willing to learn
C) have fun

If you do these things, you are less likely to face the "horror" of having a newer player in the group because more people will be better informed. Or just ask guildies to run it with you.

Easier said then done when other players may not be willing to listen

I don't know how many times I've asked healers to throw me blue balls (Mystic orbs) to help with my magicka regen, and was ignored.

Depending on how new they were, they may have misinterpreted your intent.

Mojmir · December 2016

If you bought the game your entitled to its content, otherwise what would be the point of buying the game.

OrphanHelgen · December 2016

Been there done that. Exact same situation as you. I found 3 solutions so far:

1: leave group immediately when you see this group might whipe you.
2: become so good in this game, that you in worse case can solo the bosses if group dies.
3. No matter how much you need the pledges or how bored you are, dont do pugs unless you have an intervju with the group before start.

SanTii.92 · December 2016

No, it's you who is not entitled to pick the team mates the system found for you. If you want that, go a pick them yourself.

newtinmpls · December 2016

AlnilamE wrote: »

Did you explain the mechanics to them?.

This question says it all.

People doing a dungeon they haven't done, don't "know the mechanics"

This is a chance to teach/learn and find out what abilities each person has that can gestalt to create a good team.

Or to quote someone who said it REALLY well:

BlackEar wrote: »

1. Decide if it is worth your time trying to complete it
2. If yes, ask people if they know mechanics.
3. If you wipe due to lack of knowledge/skill explain the mechanics
4. Go to step one.

newtinmpls · December 2016

AlnilamE wrote: »

Flesh Abomination: Tank and spank. .

Um... what does that actually mean?

newtinmpls · December 2016

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

To all the people pointing fingers saying "did you tell them how to do the mechanics?"

If people go to vet dungeons they are supposed to know at least most of the mechanics..

So... that would be a 'no' then.

newtinmpls · December 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

I don't know how many times I've asked healers to throw me blue balls (Mystic orbs) to help with my magicka regen, and was ignored.

Wow you are the first person I've met who actually likes that choice. Mostly I hear people saying it doesn't proc properly and they want shards instead.

OTOH did you discuss this before the dungeon.. when I usually do the "here is what I got/do, is there anything you got/want/need/can offer?" spiel.

Or did you expect that everyone plays your way and scream in the midst of everything that they were doing it wrong.

.

raasdal · December 2016

Libonotus wrote: »

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Did you explain the mechanics to them?

I never really paid attention to the Flesh Abomination mechanics in normal, so your "baby steps" don't actually work there. Same with the last boss. in normal, I just heal through his blast rather than jump through the portals. So that's no practice for Vet either.

The only way you learn the mechanics for Vet is by doing it in vet.

Why should I waste my time explaining the mechanics in a vet dungeon run? Players should already know them by now. If they don't why would they join a vet dungeon run in the first place? Start with normal first, and then work your way up to vet.

Your posts reek of pretentious elitism

Yup

Sigtric · December 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Flesh Abomination: Tank and spank. .

Um... what does that actually mean?

@newtinmpls someone tanks the boss, and everyone spanks the crap out of it till it's dead. Just a straight forward fight.

newtinmpls · December 2016

Sigtric wrote: »

@newtinmpls someone tanks the boss, and everyone spanks the crap out of it till it's dead. Just a straight forward fight.

Ahhh... thank you. I'd only heard that phrase in the "Do you want to date my avatar" video and till now I'd not heard it in game.

It's ... not nearly as provocative as she made it sound.

LadyNalcarya · December 2016

I think most of casual players are just clueless about vet/normal versions and rewards for pledges.
At least Ive met a lot of people who thought that "vet"="just lvl 50+ version". I think there should be something indicating that normal dungeons are still good for veteran characters, and vets are for those who are seeking a challenge. Or they can just lock all vet dungeons in group finder and players will need to complete them on normal first, so that they have a chance to learn the mechanics. Or they can add "difficulty rating" to every dungeon - for example, normal Spindleclutch would be 1/10 stars, and vCoS would be 10/10...
There are very toxic "cp elitists" and equally toxic "I play how I want and dont care about others" types, but most of people are adequate. And its game's fault that there's not much explanations about dungeon roles and endgame content difficulty. Leveling is insanely quick these days so all these things are really confusing for fresh lvl 50s.

Glurin · December 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Flesh Abomination: Tank and spank. .

Um... what does that actually mean?

Assuming you don't really know, and for the benefit of others reading this who may not either, "Tank and Spank" is pretty much the most basic strategy there is. It's the groundwork for most other strategies in fact.

The tank insults the boss's mama and stands still while he gets punched in the face a lot.
The healer throws band-aids at the tank so he doesn't just keel over.
The DPS proceed to spank the boss with lots and lots of firepower.

And that's it. No special mechanics. No kiting adds. Minimal dodging of attacks. Everyone just stands there and rolls their face on the keyboard.

VoidBlue · December 2016

I've ran normal ICP many times, duo it with a friend.

First time doing vet ICP, I never knew those portals were actually useful until the tank explained to us after our first wipe.

I always assumed they were an annoyance and death if you got trapped in one with missing health lol.

newtinmpls · December 2016

Glurin wrote: »

And that's it. No special mechanics. No kiting adds. Minimal dodging of attacks. Everyone just stands there and rolls their face on the keyboard.

Thank you.

I think I would go nuts..or more likely drive others nuts. It took me so long to "not stand in stupid" I'm always scooting around (at least a little) as DPS or healer; trying to tank (now - and not move around) makes my brain hurt.

Sigtric · December 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

I think most of casual players are just clueless about vet/normal versions and rewards for pledges.
At least Ive met a lot of people who thought that "vet"="just lvl 50+ version". I think there should be something indicating that normal dungeons are still good for veteran characters, and vets are for those who are seeking a challenge. Or they can just lock all vet dungeons in group finder and players will need to complete them on normal first, so that they have a chance to learn the mechanics. Or they can add "difficulty rating" to every dungeon - for example, normal Spindleclutch would be 1/10 stars, and vCoS would be 10/10...
There are very toxic "cp elitists" and equally toxic "I play how I want and dont care about others" types, but most of people are adequate. And its game's fault that there's not much explanations about dungeon roles and endgame content difficulty. Leveling is insanely quick these days so all these things are really confusing for fresh lvl 50s.

The trouble is, so many normal modes don't actually teach you much if anything at all in terms of prepping you for the vet version.

A good example is kragh in Fungal. He has two attacks in vet that will kill you. One is a straight up one shot to anyone in the age and the other will finish off a dps toon with ease. In normal, neither of these attacks are very deadly at all and most people can stand in them and continue dps. This does nothing teach them they need to move in vet mode.

In many normals, bosses are dead long before and mechanics need dealt with.

LadyNalcarya · December 2016

Sigtric wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

I think most of casual players are just clueless about vet/normal versions and rewards for pledges.
At least Ive met a lot of people who thought that "vet"="just lvl 50+ version". I think there should be something indicating that normal dungeons are still good for veteran characters, and vets are for those who are seeking a challenge. Or they can just lock all vet dungeons in group finder and players will need to complete them on normal first, so that they have a chance to learn the mechanics. Or they can add "difficulty rating" to every dungeon - for example, normal Spindleclutch would be 1/10 stars, and vCoS would be 10/10...
There are very toxic "cp elitists" and equally toxic "I play how I want and dont care about others" types, but most of people are adequate. And its game's fault that there's not much explanations about dungeon roles and endgame content difficulty. Leveling is insanely quick these days so all these things are really confusing for fresh lvl 50s.

The trouble is, so many normal modes don't actually teach you much if anything at all in terms of prepping you for the vet version.

A good example is kragh in Fungal. He has two attacks in vet that will kill you. One is a straight up one shot to anyone in the age and the other will finish off a dps toon with ease. In normal, neither of these attacks are very deadly at all and most people can stand in them and continue dps. This does nothing teach them they need to move in vet mode.

In many normals, bosses are dead long before and mechanics need dealt with.

Well... Tutorial mission (wailing prison) explains the basic mechanics (block, interrupt etc). There are also combat tips that are available by default. And with 1T update open world pve has become a bit less of faceroll (for new players anyway) so they had a chance to learn the mechanics. Red circles, blocking, all this stuff is quite obvious.
I was talking about specific dungeon mechanics, for example, in Fungal 2. They still can wipe the party but for new players it would be much less stressful to experience them on normal version. And this way, they will know what to expect from vet bosses.It is even more important for dlc dungeons. I've met many cp 300+ players that were unaware of Planar Inhibitor's mechanic, for example... And of course, on vet it can be really overwhelming for a new player. But normal is much more forgiving, and they can still see how it works.
And yeah, experienced dds can skip almost every mechanic in normal dungeons (and most of vets). But those are rare in group finder.

GreasyDave · December 2016

i am torn between both sides.
i was a terrible dps. didnt know my rotation from an ovation. but i only ran silver dailies. i knew my limits.
came back after 1T. was still poor. guildies carried me in the easier vets but never criticised me. in a way i wish they had.
basically after failing spindle 2 with them i realised i was the problem. i took responsibility for myself. i geared up. got a rotation. became semi decent.
noone wipes because of my poor dps anymore. maybe bevause of my poor reflexes but thats another story.
so these days i pug a fair amount. never dlc. never 2 versions. just the easier ones. and i have to say i have met some very bad players. i mean really really bad. i was bad too once so i talk about mechanics. talk about tatics. sometimes it helps sometimes it doesnt. we always complete the dungeons but sometimes not at hm.
what frustrates me are the bad players who dont respond. even to the question do you speak english.
i have had tanks who dont taunt. and dont respond to polite questions.
dps who have 14k health complain about getting one shot and still arent pulling over 10k damage.
healers who dont heal
i am a patient guy. i am polite. i go in knowing that i will probably be dealing 50 percent of damage. and have good self heals. i never vote to kick.
but really, there are some incredibly rude incompetent players in group finder. being bad at a role is not a problem for me. refusing help and refusing to talk about it is.
every second pug i encounter someone like yhat. and often they are the ones who keep trying to read the hm scroll.
it beggars belief sometimes. group wipes. we talk. the problem player doesnt respond. hits the hm scroll. group wipes. i try to talk about the wipe. no answer. i suggest no hm. group agrees. weak player doesnt respond but just hits the hm scroll.
bad and unresponsive players are out there. it really isnt a question about elitism. it is a real problem
i feel most sorry for the noob guys i pug with who are willing to talk and change playstyle and yet their own wfforts are wasted because of unresponsive idiots

GreasyDave · December 2016

triple post

GreasyDave · December 2016

deleted triple post

GreasyDave · December 2016

yikes posting from a phone and i seem to have spammed it. sorry. will remove them when i get to my pc later

Katinas · December 2016

The level of quality in PVE is at an all time low with One Tamriel.
Low CP/level players complain that they get kicked from daily dungeon groups, but I wish they simply were not allowed there in the first place.
When you see people spamming Impulse or Arrow Spray as their only ability in boss fights, or light attacking thin air during trash pulls you feel you are carrying people through content which they will not learn anything from and will reach CP/level cap but stay at a level of a potato.
The game should punish bad quality which would lead into players actually learning something. The gap between normal and veteran level is too big and getting through normal difficulty with bad performance does not teach anything when these people attempt veteran content. It is a pain to group with such company when all you want is your quick six keys.
I wish it was possible to group for daily dungeons with only max CP players in your group. Sorry lowbies.

DRXHarbinger · December 2016

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

raidentenshu_ESO wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

You can solo warden easy enough....you let the group down...you shouldn't run Vet prison either. L2p

If your current build is setup for it, yes. It would be easy. Unfortunately my current setups are builds for group content.... vet trials.

Exactly....any high dps build can take warden solo. That's a poor excuse. If you can't take a vet boss like warden wearing a trial set up then...well....l2p.

Let me guess a quick ground toon with no self heal at all or no shield.

So in a MMO game I'm suppose to L2P solo in a group related dungeon that is meant to be played with other players?

No your grouping with randoms and expecting them to be leet and do the 3rd hardest dungeon in the game and expecting it to go well...you should know well enough by now given how long you've been playing and on these forums.

Like all good boys scouts who wander off adventuring with strangers say....be prepared.