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CP bigotry on this game is out of control. Something needs to be done.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »CP shouldn't matter for something like Selene's Web, but I don't agree with anonymous CP. The general population is already being punished enough with the 15 minute timer and being unable to manage groups. A few bad Apples don't warrant punishing the entire community.
Well then they need to put a 160 cap or something on Veteran Dungeons - because there is just no excuse for the kind of crap low CP players have to go through on this game when they sign up to do vet dungeons.
And it's not just a few bad apples. It's a widespread practice that happens almost every time I see a low CP player inside a dungeon. And I run a lot of dungeons.
Doesn't matter to me. I have never vote kicked anyone from a group that wasn't afk. I shouldn't have to deal with 15 minute timer or the removal of cp visibility. I'd be fine with them only allowing inactive players to be vote kicked or some other approach that doesn't inconvenience everyone.
How about this then - we make it optional? You can choose whether or not to have your CP visible to other players. That way you aren't forced into anything - but other players who don't want to be pre-judged due to their CP levels can avoid being done so.
Obviously people with hidden cp will be instakicked.
Sadly you might be right about that. But that just proves my point - and why it needs to be made invisible in the first place. Because too many players use it as an excuse to treat others like garbage.
Regardless of how many annoying safeguards they implement, there will always be something that people get judged on. They have banned add-ons and added timers and there was no change. There is nothing they can do to prevent elitism.
Just because you cannot wholly cure something doesn't mean you shouldn't take steps to treat it.
Making CP invisible to other players would help. Not sure why that would annoy you.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 8:57PM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I had someone try to pull this stunt on me a few days ago. He gave up and finally joined the fight when it became apparent that we didn't need him anyway. Seems our DPS wasn't that low after all.
Here's the thing about official CP requirements to do vet dungeons. Whatever they are, elitist jerks will still try to votekick you right off the bat if you are not maxed out or close to it. Even if you're in one of the easier dungeons.
These people are looking for speed runs. I don't mean speed runs like getting the achievements that are available right now. That's way too slow.
No, what they want is for everyone to just fit together flawlessly and be putting out so much overwhelming damage that all mechanics can be completely ignored. (Typically these are the same people that *** and moan all day about everything being too easy.) What they fail to realize is that PUG does not mean "well oiled machine". You have to be a little versatile. Even pro sports teams generally don't just click together the first time they meet. But no matter how many times they are presented with that reality, they will still continue to expect and demand that three other completely random people play exactly the way the elitist wants them to.
You're probably right about the CP requirement. That's why I would prefer just to make it invisible all together. That way players couldn't pre-judge other players based on it.0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »CP shouldn't matter for something like Selene's Web, but I don't agree with anonymous CP. The general population is already being punished enough with the 15 minute timer and being unable to manage groups. A few bad Apples don't warrant punishing the entire community.
Well then they need to put a 160 cap or something on Veteran Dungeons - because there is just no excuse for the kind of crap low CP players have to go through on this game when they sign up to do vet dungeons.
And it's not just a few bad apples. It's a widespread practice that happens almost every time I see a low CP player inside a dungeon. And I run a lot of dungeons.
Doesn't matter to me. I have never vote kicked anyone from a group that wasn't afk. I shouldn't have to deal with 15 minute timer or the removal of cp visibility. I'd be fine with them only allowing inactive players to be vote kicked or some other approach that doesn't inconvenience everyone.
How about this then - we make it optional? You can choose whether or not to have your CP visible to other players. That way you aren't forced into anything - but other players who don't want to be pre-judged due to their CP levels can avoid being done so.
Obviously people with hidden cp will be instakicked.
Sadly you might be right about that. But that just proves my point - and why it needs to be made invisible in the first place. Because too many players use it as an excuse to treat others like garbage.
Regardless of how many annoying safeguards they implement, there will always be something that people get judged on. They have banned add-ons and added timers and there was no change. There is nothing they can do to prevent elitism.
Just because you cannot wholly cure something doesn't mean you shouldn't take steps to treat it.
Making CP invisible to other players would help. Not sure why that would annoy you.
It wouldn't help. Every popular MMO has elitism regardless of what the devs do.
It would be annoying because knowing your group is important to a successful run. I don't kick low CP players, but I do take steps to carry them since they usually do less dps, take more damage, and put out less heals.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭The real issue is many players are acostumed to the old "burn boss" pledges so they want to replicate that with Max CP requierement.
This can be true on those "dps race" bosses, but many bosses are based on mecanichs rather than burn, so that adds 2 obstacles to low CP players: learning the mechanics and dealing with a longer fight due to the fact that bosses now have crazy HP.
That's exactly the issue with Selene's boss, gotta learn to keep an eye out on 1 hit mecanichs and dealing enough AOE dps to adds or you're overwhelmed.
ZOS needs to balance those fights for low CP or gate the content (which is against 1T philosophy).PC/DC/NAserver
V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'll put this simply.
Low CP people have no buisness queuing vet. Hell, I didn't queue for things back in the day until I completed both Cadwells silver and gold. And that's how it needs to be.
CP is a barrier to entry. They need to impliment requirements.6 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lord_Dexter wrote: »Salene last boss is tough and with scroll almost impossible for low level CP,
I would never waste time, i did many times but low cp player end up with time waste..
Pugged Selene with a couple of 200ish CP DPSers today. I kinda expected we'd skip hard mode, but they were doing well, so we read the scroll. It was a little rough and took a few tries, but they did just fine and weren't being carried either.
Just chill and give players a chance to prove themselves before making assumptions.Edited by NBrookus on December 29, 2016 9:53PM2 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭
that's fair, but that doesn't necessarily answer my question. This content was geared for each dps to be doing 10-15 and a well geared and knowledgeable player can easily push 30k+ unbuffed, its entirely possible that the "clean run" your experiencing was entirely because of the other dps.
Now there is no reason not to be civil of course, but when pugging social isn't the first consideration. It's entirely possible that the other dps (who I suspect was doing the vast majority of the dps) should have left, but by him leaving you would have been completely unable to continue due to dps checks. Just a matter of priorities I suppose, do you prefer to finish the pledge in a timely manner or do you accept the lower cp and announce its a "completion" run.
***, nearly every Vet dungeon is doable without any DPS checks bar from few DLC dungeons.
Most vet dungeons are soloable so DPS and DPS race is entirely a false concept, just another reason to measure e-peens, unless you do speedruns for achievements, but then you shouldn't be in the groupfinder in the first place (and your own fault for being there if you do).
It all boils down to another form of elitism and nothing else, it has nothing to do with DPS checks or DPS race, they are veteran 4-man's not vMoL for crying out loud, they are the easiest form of veteran dungeonining designed for the lowest common denominator and doable by anybody, even (yes) LOW cp's if they have half a brain attached to them.
How do I know? Because i've:
A: Soloed most dungeons in veteran mode.
B: Ran veteran dungeons when my characters were low on CP (VR) (believe it or not, i was once low too!)
C: Ran and still frequently run veteran dungeons with low CP players:
It all boils down to individual skill of players. In OP's case it easily could've been the low CP player was actually doing much better than the player doing the kicking, you don't know. A battlescaled lowbie with good on-level gear with good playing skills is on par with someone max with maybe a few stats lower here and there, but not by a lot.
CP in this case truly is no indicator of anything, not in 4-mans, not by a long shot. If a group fails because there is a low CP player in the group, it's not the fault of the low CP player... it's the fault of the other 3 players because most dungeons are literally a cakewalk..
I don't understand why people keep bringing up solo-ing dungeons when talking about low level CP players. Because while dungeons certainly are able to be done solo, it's high CP along with skill that enables it. Seems very counterproductive to point out what high CP can help do.3 -
Lord_Eomer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lord_Dexter wrote: »Salene last boss is tough and with scroll almost impossible for low level CP,
I would never waste time, i did many times but low cp player end up with time waste..
Pugged Selene with a couple of 200ish CP DPSers today. I kinda expected we'd skip hard mode, but they were doing well, so we read the scroll. It was a little rough and took a few tries, but they did just fine and we're being carried either.
Just chill and give players a chance to prove themselves before making assumptions.
Better upload video, 200 CP dps doing salene vet hard?Edited by Lord_Eomer on December 29, 2016 9:14PM0 -
Humatiel✭✭✭✭
that's fair, but that doesn't necessarily answer my question. This content was geared for each dps to be doing 10-15 and a well geared and knowledgeable player can easily push 30k+ unbuffed, its entirely possible that the "clean run" your experiencing was entirely because of the other dps.
Now there is no reason not to be civil of course, but when pugging social isn't the first consideration. It's entirely possible that the other dps (who I suspect was doing the vast majority of the dps) should have left, but by him leaving you would have been completely unable to continue due to dps checks. Just a matter of priorities I suppose, do you prefer to finish the pledge in a timely manner or do you accept the lower cp and announce its a "completion" run.
***, nearly every Vet dungeon is doable without any DPS checks bar from few DLC dungeons.
Most vet dungeons are soloable so DPS and DPS race is entirely a false concept, just another reason to measure e-peens, unless you do speedruns for achievements, but then you shouldn't be in the groupfinder in the first place (and your own fault for being there if you do).
It all boils down to another form of elitism and nothing else, it has nothing to do with DPS checks or DPS race, they are veteran 4-man's not vMoL for crying out loud, they are the easiest form of veteran dungeonining designed for the lowest common denominator and doable by anybody, even (yes) LOW cp's if they have half a brain attached to them.
How do I know? Because i've:
A: Soloed most dungeons in veteran mode.
B: Ran veteran dungeons when my characters were low on CP (VR) (believe it or not, i was once low too!)
C: Ran and still frequently run veteran dungeons with low CP players:
It all boils down to individual skill of players. In OP's case it easily could've been the low CP player was actually doing much better than the player doing the kicking, you don't know. A battlescaled lowbie with good on-level gear with good playing skills is on par with someone max with maybe a few stats lower here and there, but not by a lot.
CP in this case truly is no indicator of anything, not in 4-mans, not by a long shot. If a group fails because there is a low CP player in the group, it's not the fault of the low CP player... it's the fault of the other 3 players because most dungeons are literally a cakewalk..
As hesitant as I am to address the rambling lines of rant and general troll that I am seeing here, allow me to make the attempt. There are a great many pug players that struggle to pull 5k dps in single target and adamantly remain single on every mob, while most arent this "new" it does happen more then I am comfortable with relying on it not to happen. DPS checks are a very real thing at that level, even if they arent to us.
As far as the list of accomplishments and such anyone commenting here I imagine can claim the same, various veteran soloes, duo dlcs etc etc. none of that statement effects a player that is to new to understand what a rotation means much less how to use it. Trying to claim that CP should be ignored as it is irrelevant is naive, CP grants a quantitative increase in dps. For a player to do well without CP (although possible) means that they are an unusually good gamer (given scaling to 160CP) but that shouldn't be expected.Edited by Humatiel on December 29, 2016 9:17PMVMA | vHRC-HM | vAA-HM | vSO-HM | vMOL-HM
700+ CP
GM of Luxury Raids3 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »Clearly you had an ass in your group, but I feel a few details are missing?
Were you running Vet or Norm? How low is low CP? Because, you have to remember that the content is scaled to CP160, as it always has been.
A CP120 may not have an issue, if they're good at their character. A CP20 is going to have a hard time, especially with a Vet version of Selene's Web.
Yes, if vet dungeons, it can be harder on lower ranking CP players, but to me, if folks are contributing, it's fine; no matter what level they are or how much dps they can do. If all are team players, I work with any level. I've completed plenty of vet dungeons, even after reading scrolls, with a group with 100 CPs and double digits CP players (even had a 15 and 10 CP players a few runs.) Yes, it is a bit harder, and we may have wiped a couple times before completing, but I'm ok with that because everyone are contributing to the fight in whatever way they can muster. If we cannot finish it, it's not the end of the world or will lose any sleep. We gave it a good try, then, it is ok to disband and go back to the drawing; as long as everyone is in agreement.
Yes, if that Selene web was in normal, they could've beat that with 3 and without the complainer (should had voted to kick that non-team player out.) You can even solo normal, if you're high enough. I've been in plenty of groups where the other 3 were not even CP level; even ran plenty of normal with level 10 and 15 players, and we completed dungeons after dungeons just fine.
I think those that complain so much about others (particularly against other lower level players or non-CP) are somehow inadequate in some ways themselves and probably expect to be carried through the entire dungeons by the rest of the group. Once they see/view someone else much lower level, they probably figure, in whatever selfish way it may be, that oh my God, now they have work and can't breeze through the dungeon.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »CP shouldn't matter for something like Selene's Web, but I don't agree with anonymous CP. The general population is already being punished enough with the 15 minute timer and being unable to manage groups. A few bad Apples don't warrant punishing the entire community.
Well then they need to put a 160 cap or something on Veteran Dungeons - because there is just no excuse for the kind of crap low CP players have to go through on this game when they sign up to do vet dungeons.
And it's not just a few bad apples. It's a widespread practice that happens almost every time I see a low CP player inside a dungeon. And I run a lot of dungeons.
Doesn't matter to me. I have never vote kicked anyone from a group that wasn't afk. I shouldn't have to deal with 15 minute timer or the removal of cp visibility. I'd be fine with them only allowing inactive players to be vote kicked or some other approach that doesn't inconvenience everyone.
How about this then - we make it optional? You can choose whether or not to have your CP visible to other players. That way you aren't forced into anything - but other players who don't want to be pre-judged due to their CP levels can avoid being done so.
Obviously people with hidden cp will be instakicked.
Sadly you might be right about that. But that just proves my point - and why it needs to be made invisible in the first place. Because too many players use it as an excuse to treat others like garbage.
Regardless of how many annoying safeguards they implement, there will always be something that people get judged on. They have banned add-ons and added timers and there was no change. There is nothing they can do to prevent elitism.
Just because you cannot wholly cure something doesn't mean you shouldn't take steps to treat it.
Making CP invisible to other players would help. Not sure why that would annoy you.
It wouldn't help. Every popular MMO has elitism regardless of what the devs do.
It would be annoying because knowing your group is important to a successful run. I don't kick low CP players, but I do take steps to carry them since they usually do less dps, take more damage, and put out less heals.
Well we disagree about that. I think it would help.
Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 9:17PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »The real issue is many players are acostumed to the old "burn boss" pledges so they want to replicate that with Max CP requierement.
This can be true on those "dps race" bosses, but many bosses are based on mecanichs rather than burn, so that adds 2 obstacles to low CP players: learning the mechanics and dealing with a longer fight due to the fact that bosses now have crazy HP.
That's exactly the issue with Selene's boss, gotta learn to keep an eye out on 1 hit mecanichs and dealing enough AOE dps to adds or you're overwhelmed.
ZOS needs to balance those fights for low CP or gate the content (which is against 1T philosophy).
That's why I was trying to be reasonable about the situation. All I was asking was them to give the low CP guy a fair shake - but they didn't even want to do that. They were more interested in trying to prove their lame point about low CP - so he refused to even fight. He probably knew we would win if he did - and he didn't want to look like the judgmental fool that he was.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 9:22PM2 -
alexkdd99✭✭✭✭✭
✭No to making it anonymous. But honestly if someone is going to go through all that to be a ***, they would more than likely find any number of other reasons to be a *** of cp was anonymous.
There will always be aholes like that.
I think hiding cp would actually cause even more behavior like you mentioned.
I wish we had even more information about our potential group members, such as how many dungeons they have run and other stats.
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skiptomyluau✭✭✭I stopped doing undaunted dailies because a) it takes an hour to group with the auto kicks. And b) once in we rarely finish due to drama. I don't have enough friends to put together a fun adult group0
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I'll put this simply.
Low CP people have no buisness queuing vet. Hell, I didn't queue for things back in the day until I completed both Cadwells silver and gold. And that's how it needs to be.
CP is a barrier to entry. They need to impliment requirements.Lord_Dexter wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »Salene last boss is tough and with scroll almost impossible for low level CP,
I would never waste time, i did many times but low cp player end up with time waste..
Pugged Selene with a couple of 200ish CP DPSers today. I kinda expected we'd skip hard mode, but they were doing well, so we read the scroll. It was a little rough and took a few tries, but they did just fine and we're being carried either.
Just chill and give players a chance to prove themselves before making assumptions.
Better upload video, 200 CP dps doing salene vet hard?
You don't have to do hard mode though.
That's there as option for groups who are capable of doing it. It's not a requirement - and people shouldn't always assume their group is going to be able to do hard modeNo to making it anonymous. But honestly if someone is going to go through all that to be a ***, they would more than likely find any number of other reasons to be a *** of cp was anonymous.
There will always be aholes like that.
I think hiding cp would actually cause even more behavior like you mentioned.
I wish we had even more information about our potential group members, such as how many dungeons they have run and other stats.
Making CP invisible would stop people from pre-judging others based on CP at the start of a dungeon.
So I'm not buying this argument that it wouldn't help. Because I believe it would.
In any case - it couldn't hurt to try it and see.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 9:27PM0 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭New Guy: "Hey everyone, and Happy Fishmas! New player here, really excited to try these dungeons for the first time. But just to let you know, I am new so if there is anything I need to know for a certain bo..."
*You have been kicked from the group*
The struggle.8 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭skiptomyluau wrote: »I stopped doing undaunted dailies because a) it takes an hour to group with the auto kicks. And b) once in we rarely finish due to drama. I don't have enough friends to put together a fun adult group
I can't really blame you. If I was a low CP DPS in this game's current climate I would have probably told the dailies to kiss my hind parts as well.
Sadly though, that's exactly the outcome those snobby players want.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 9:30PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Doctordarkspawn wrote: »I'll put this simply.
Low CP people have no buisness queuing vet. Hell, I didn't queue for things back in the day until I completed both Cadwells silver and gold. And that's how it needs to be.
CP is a barrier to entry. They need to impliment requirements.
The problem with your analysis is I have seen lower CP players out-perform higher CP players. So your argument is based on a false premise - because higher CP does not always equal a better player.
And expecting players to complete both Cadwell's Silver and Gold before queuing up for a veteran dungeon is absurd. By that standard I should not even being queuing up for Vet Dungeons - and I have completed them all more times than I can count.
Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 9:38PM2 -
Karius_Imalthar✭✭✭✭✭I have to play the middle ground here. Yes, CP does not mean everything but it does not mean nothing. For one, if I know nothing about a player then it gives me something to start with. I have never been in a group that tried to vote kick anyone (except once someone dc'd and never came back). For example, last night I was in one of the harder vet dungeons. One member had less than 100 cp. No one complained. We tried and didn't make it further than a couple bosses in. We opted to disband and I thanked everyone for the group.
Realistically it was unlikely we were ever going to be able to complete the dungeon. CP gain is very quick at first meaning they would have been vet for a very short time. A day? Perhaps hours. If CP is very low then they probably have little to no experience in veteran dungeons, are unlikely to know the mechanics, and are unlikely to have experienced enough of a challenge that drives set building and skill point and champion point research.
Was the OP's group member a drama queen elitist jerk? Yes. If the people who have spent time learning the game and perfecting their character want to play the game and have fun and if they want to do that with other people who have spent time learning the game and perfecting their character then they can do that.Edited by Karius_Imalthar on December 29, 2016 9:40PM1 -
Stopnaggin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lord_Dexter wrote: »
that's fair, but that doesn't necessarily answer my question. This content was geared for each dps to be doing 10-15 and a well geared and knowledgeable player can easily push 30k+ unbuffed, its entirely possible that the "clean run" your experiencing was entirely because of the other dps.
Now there is no reason not to be civil of course, but when pugging social isn't the first consideration. It's entirely possible that the other dps (who I suspect was doing the vast majority of the dps) should have left, but by him leaving you would have been completely unable to continue due to dps checks. Just a matter of priorities I suppose, do you prefer to finish the pledge in a timely manner or do you accept the lower cp and announce its a "completion" run.
***, nearly every Vet dungeon is doable without any DPS checks bar from few DLC dungeons.
Most vet dungeons are soloable so DPS and DPS race is entirely a false concept, just another reason to measure e-peens, unless you do speedruns for achievements, but then you shouldn't be in the groupfinder in the first place (and your own fault for being there if you do).
It all boils down to another form of elitism and nothing else, it has nothing to do with DPS checks or DPS race, they are veteran 4-man's not vMoL for crying out loud, they are the easiest form of veteran dungeonining designed for the lowest common denominator and doable by anybody, even (yes) LOW cp's if they have half a brain attached to them.
How do I know? Because i've:
A: Soloed most dungeons in veteran mode.
B: Ran veteran dungeons when my characters were low on CP (VR) (believe it or not, i was once low too!)
C: Ran and still frequently run veteran dungeons with low CP players:
It all boils down to individual skill of players. In OP's case it easily could've been the low CP player was actually doing much better than the player doing the kicking, you don't know. A battlescaled lowbie with good on-level gear with good playing skills is on par with someone max with maybe a few stats lower here and there, but not by a lot.
CP in this case truly is no indicator of anything, not in 4-mans, not by a long shot. If a group fails because there is a low CP player in the group, it's not the fault of the low CP player... it's the fault of the other 3 players because most dungeons are literally a cakewalk..
Soloable? May be you can after dying many times..
Not low level cp can solo and one Dungeon he is talking Salene, its last boss is almost impossible to solo!
I don't think that was his point. How can you judge someone skill from a number? You cant, how about lower level characters say a lvl 44, maybe this is alt toon that has max cp, it doesn't display the cp. That's why you see people get their butts handed to them in duels by low level toons.
4 man dungeons are not the end game content they once we're even on vet. Me and a friend do them all the time when going for certain gear and it's only 2 or 3 of us, no real need for heals or tanks. The only challanging dungeons are the dlc ones at this point and they are nowhere near HM trials.0 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CP10 is the same as Vet1, which was the requirement to run Vet Dungeons back in the day. You can't run a Vet Dungeon unless your CP10 at least, so we are already restricted.
Which brings up another point, when is ZOS going to change Veteran to Champion as far as Dungeon stratification goes?Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Karius_Imalthar wrote: »I have to play the middle ground here. Yes, CP does not mean everything but it does not mean nothing. For one, if I know nothing about a player then it gives me something to start with. I have never been in a group that tried to vote kick anyone (except once someone dc'd and never came back). For example, last night I was in one of the harder vet dungeons. One member had less than 100 cp. No one complained. We tried and didn't make it further than a couple bosses in. We opted to disband and I thanked everyone for the group.
Realistically it was unlikely we were ever going to be able to complete the dungeon. CP gain is very quick at first meaning they would have been vet for a very short time. A day? Perhaps hours. If CP is very low then they probably have little to no experience in veteran dungeons, are unlikely to know the mechanics, and are unlikely to have experienced enough of a challenge that drives set building and skill point and champion point research.
Was the OP's group member a drama queen elitist jerk? Yes. If the people who have spent time learning the game and perfecting their character want to play the game and have fun and if they want to do that with other people who have spent time learning the game and perfecting their character then they can do that.
It would seem to me players who have - and I quote - "perfected their character" should be good enough to where they would welcome the added challenge a lower CP group member might bring. They wouldn't try to kick a player at the very start just because they might have to work a little harder.
So that seems more like the actions of someone who hasn't perfected their character to me.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 9:48PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stopnaggin wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »
that's fair, but that doesn't necessarily answer my question. This content was geared for each dps to be doing 10-15 and a well geared and knowledgeable player can easily push 30k+ unbuffed, its entirely possible that the "clean run" your experiencing was entirely because of the other dps.
Now there is no reason not to be civil of course, but when pugging social isn't the first consideration. It's entirely possible that the other dps (who I suspect was doing the vast majority of the dps) should have left, but by him leaving you would have been completely unable to continue due to dps checks. Just a matter of priorities I suppose, do you prefer to finish the pledge in a timely manner or do you accept the lower cp and announce its a "completion" run.
***, nearly every Vet dungeon is doable without any DPS checks bar from few DLC dungeons.
Most vet dungeons are soloable so DPS and DPS race is entirely a false concept, just another reason to measure e-peens, unless you do speedruns for achievements, but then you shouldn't be in the groupfinder in the first place (and your own fault for being there if you do).
It all boils down to another form of elitism and nothing else, it has nothing to do with DPS checks or DPS race, they are veteran 4-man's not vMoL for crying out loud, they are the easiest form of veteran dungeonining designed for the lowest common denominator and doable by anybody, even (yes) LOW cp's if they have half a brain attached to them.
How do I know? Because i've:
A: Soloed most dungeons in veteran mode.
B: Ran veteran dungeons when my characters were low on CP (VR) (believe it or not, i was once low too!)
C: Ran and still frequently run veteran dungeons with low CP players:
It all boils down to individual skill of players. In OP's case it easily could've been the low CP player was actually doing much better than the player doing the kicking, you don't know. A battlescaled lowbie with good on-level gear with good playing skills is on par with someone max with maybe a few stats lower here and there, but not by a lot.
CP in this case truly is no indicator of anything, not in 4-mans, not by a long shot. If a group fails because there is a low CP player in the group, it's not the fault of the low CP player... it's the fault of the other 3 players because most dungeons are literally a cakewalk..
Soloable? May be you can after dying many times..
Not low level cp can solo and one Dungeon he is talking Salene, its last boss is almost impossible to solo!
I don't think that was his point. How can you judge someone skill from a number? You cant, how about lower level characters say a lvl 44, maybe this is alt toon that has max cp, it doesn't display the cp. That's why you see people get their butts handed to them in duels by low level toons.
4 man dungeons are not the end game content they once we're even on vet. Me and a friend do them all the time when going for certain gear and it's only 2 or 3 of us, no real need for heals or tanks. The only challanging dungeons are the dlc ones at this point and they are nowhere near HM trials.
Agreed.
Anyone who has seen what a full group of experienced Max CP players can do to a veteran dungeon these days knows just how ridiculous it is to think you need a party full of high CP players to complete one.
If anything - good players should welcome the lower CP players into their group as it means the dungeon might be a little more interesting as a result instead of a face roll.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 9:47PM1 -
DragonBound✭✭✭✭✭Darkestnght wrote: »Yeah some peoples kids...you have to wonder what their parents are like.
Oh I have a pretty good idea what kind of parents these people are, but sadly allot of them do not know how much of a troll there children really are, this is why you do not let kids free roam social media and social gaming.0 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That is another way to look at. If you want a little more challenge, take less experienced players with you.
Besides, you know who the subject matter expert in the room is? The Teacher, not the Student.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"1 -
Jsmalls✭✭✭✭✭
✭I have mixed feelings about this.
So a friend and I queued the other day for WGT, both of us are very comfortable with the the. We got a 561 healer and a CP 69 DPS. The healer started the vote to kick him immediately. My friend and I have Duo'd WGT so we declined his vote to kick and carried him (and the healer) through the dungeon. The CP 69 was dead the vast majority of the boss fights, with the healer in a close second (he had a couple good ressurections in the Kena fight).
Now for this healer in a "Normal" group that 69 CP would have probably prevented them from finishing the dungeon. So I can understand why he triggered that kick... But for elitists that are comfortable with a dungeon and kick just because... I think they should revaluate themselves as people!4 -
DragonBound✭✭✭✭✭I had someone try to pull this stunt on me a few days ago. He gave up and finally joined the fight when it became apparent that we didn't need him anyway. Seems our DPS wasn't that low after all.
Here's the thing about official CP requirements to do vet dungeons. Whatever they are, elitist jerks will still try to votekick you right off the bat if you are not maxed out or close to it. Even if you're in one of the easier dungeons.
These people are looking for speed runs. I don't mean speed runs like getting the achievements that are available right now. That's way too slow.
No, what they want is for everyone to just fit together flawlessly and be putting out so much overwhelming damage that all mechanics can be completely ignored. (Typically these are the same people that *** and moan all day about everything being too easy.) What they fail to realize is that PUG does not mean "well oiled machine". You have to be a little versatile. Even pro sports teams generally don't just click together the first time they meet. But no matter how many times they are presented with that reality, they will still continue to expect and demand that three other completely random people play exactly the way the elitist wants them to.
This is well said, sadly this meta dps attitude has changed mmorpgs for the worst in the genre and it really needs to stop, your just making other roles useless and giving classes less ways to play.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have mixed feelings about this.
So a friend and I queued the other day for WGT, both of us are very comfortable with the the. We got a 561 healer and a CP 69 DPS. The healer started the vote to kick him immediately. My friend and I have Duo'd WGT so we declined his vote to kick and carried him (and the healer) through the dungeon. The CP 69 was dead the vast majority of the boss fights, with the healer in a close second (he had a couple good ressurections in the Kena fight).
Now for this healer in a "Normal" group that 69 CP would have probably prevented them from finishing the dungeon. So I can understand why he triggered that kick... But for elitists that are comfortable with a dungeon and kick just because... I think they should revaluate themselves as people!
Some low CP players are pretty awful and have no business being in a veteran dungeon. But others are really good and can get the job done - even when they are at the low CP disadvantage.
I am not trying to say that a kick on low CP players is never justified. Sometimes it is. What I am saying is they should be given a chance first - and not just assumed to be terrible players and kicked at the offset.
That's always seemed like a reasonable position to me.Edited by Jeremy on December 29, 2016 9:59PM1 -
SquareSausage✭✭✭✭✭It happens as most players who are the higher end of the CP scale have experienced before that low CP players make the dungeon longer, and bear in mind, no-one is running dungeons for fun, generally they are done for the 100k exp or undaunted dailies and or helm. Its like a job, do dungeon as efficiently as possible.
Low level DPS below 160 prob have *** gear and probably havent done a lot of the dungeons so its a drag. With a tank and healer at low CP its generally good to go as they are less gear dependant.
Breakfast KingPS4 EU2
