Heavy attack better than skill

kaithuzar · December 2016

IMO, this is an in balance ZOS needs to correct.
If you are a stamina user and you are not performing at a heavy attack before executing any damaging skill you're doing it wrong.
I.e... heavy attack critical rush, heavy attack dizzying swing, heavy attack reverse slice.
Just a few points into the champion tree for increase heavy attack damage will make a heavy attack perform 50% better than a typical skill attack. Take that statement with a grain of salt because obviously it's not exact but it's what I feel is happening.

Technically magic users can utilize this as well but the problem is that a destruction heavy attack can be reflected, or even dodged if the opponent has shuffle.

If you're running duel wield this doesn't work as well especially if you are magic duel wield because you're heavy attacks are based off weapon damage and yet you're stacking spell damage for your abilities.

Hopefully ZOS well look at this or take it into effect before the balance changes.

-Kai
(The last magicka melee nightblade)

MrTtheDK · December 2016

IMO heavy armored melee magicka nightblades need nerfed.

kaithuzar · December 2016

LOL

Emothic · December 2016

I do the oposite. Heavy attacks take to long, it are very hard to animation cancle during large PvP battles. So I just preform light attacks to skill attack, light attack to skill attack and so on. I don't get the stamina regen as I would with a heavy attack, but using a light attack reduces stamina cost and If I can use it at the right times I can deal quite a bit of damage. At least as much as I can being a DK tank.

Solariken · December 2016

What a strange thing to complain about...

Heavy attack IS a skill, so of course it should deal respectable damage. Due to the wind-up time, I think the current damage of light/heavy attacks is appropriate.

Kutsuu · December 2016

I see this as you being upset that your DW magicka build doesn't get the benefit from heavy attacks that a staff magicka build or a DW/2h stamina build gets.

You realize that staffs have their own advantage of doing the attack from range? Bow heavy attacks can also be reflected. And all heavy attacks can be dodged by major evasion, which you have easy magicka-based access to on your nightblade.

Heavy attacks are extremely obvious animations and have a long charge time (roughly 2s). Medium Attacks (still say heavy in combat log) do a lot less damage and don't return any resources like a fully charged one does.

kaithuzar · December 2016

Pretty much agree with you kutsuu, however it does bring up the whole "shuffle is better than double take" argument, as well as "lag or animation canceling can be factors of whether or not you notice the windup animation".

Bazeric · December 2016

kaithuzar wrote: »

-Kai
(The last magicka melee nightblade)

Good luck, now that the campaign cycle has finally reset I have moved to a different character to try some other playstyles (though technically still mag melee :-] ) because I am tired mentally and physically from playing my melee magblade.

I have to admit though, I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to be about.

"Give us magical dual wield weapons" ...? Weaving is almost a detriment to my melee magblade in Cyrolag
"Buff Concealed Weapon" ...? Surprise Attack is far and away better for DPS, a stun is meaningless now that CP and regens are through the roof.
"Give us instant magical proc sets" ...? I know I'd farm a lot of salt if I had an extra 6K on my opens. Then I'd be able to attack people with more than 22K health.
"Shuffle is better than Double Take" Agreed, I dodged a total of 0 (yes zero) Incapacitating strikes with Double Take for at least the last campaign and a half since I started noticing.

-Some Guy
(2nd or 3rd to last magicka melee nightblade)
((Though the last week and a half I quit melee and spammed heals because I was that fed up with the state of PVP))

Kutsuu · December 2016

Lol major evasion is major evasion. I've interchangeably used both on my nightblades and haven't seen anything that makes me suspicious. Unless you have actual evidence it's just speculation.

kaithuzar · December 2016

There are people that have posted the evidence but it was like .1 or .3 difference idk exactly; something small mathematically but still heavily felt that people know it to be true

Kram8ion · December 2016

It's just too slow imo when I can do two skill attacks in the same window

Kutsuu · December 2016

kaithuzar wrote: »

There are people that have posted the evidence but it was like .1 or .3 difference idk exactly; something small mathematically but still heavily felt that people know it to be true

When we're trying to test a 20% chance, a difference of 0.1-0.3% is well within the margin of error for even a 3000 hit test. You can expect a margin of error around 3% with a 1000 hit test, for example.

Rohaus · December 2016

Melee heavy attacks are extremely difficult to land especially if your target is aware. Trying to finish someone off with a heavy attack is extremely difficult due to said target engaging in a dodge roll heal. It would be better to use a true execute and only that ability because even using a light attack before and execute can mean the target has more time to survive... split second is more than enough time for evasive defense.

Bandit1215 · December 2016

Solariken wrote: »

What a strange thing to complain about...

Heavy attack IS a skill, so of course it should deal respectable damage. Due to the wind-up time, I think the current damage of light/heavy attacks is appropriate.

Heavy attack isn't a skill. If it is, well then I have never heard of a skill that doesn't need a bar slot...

Knootewoot · December 2016

kaithuzar wrote: »

IMO, this is an in balance ZOS needs to correct.
If you are a stamina user and you are not performing at a heavy attack before executing any damaging skill you're doing it wrong.
I.e... heavy attack critical rush, heavy attack dizzying swing, heavy attack reverse slice.
Just a few points into the champion tree for increase heavy attack damage will make a heavy attack perform 50% better than a typical skill attack. Take that statement with a grain of salt because obviously it's not exact but it's what I feel is happening.

Technically magic users can utilize this as well but the problem is that a destruction heavy attack can be reflected, or even dodged if the opponent has shuffle.

If you're running duel wield this doesn't work as well especially if you are magic duel wield because you're heavy attacks are based off weapon damage and yet you're stacking spell damage for your abilities.

Hopefully ZOS well look at this or take it into effect before the balance changes.

-Kai
(The last magicka melee nightblade)

Wrong.

I am also a magicka melee nightblade

But i agree with the rest.

I do use heavy attack before i conceal weapon. But it's like giving kiss on a cheek compared to my stamblade counterparts.

FearlessOne_2014 · December 2016

Kutsuu wrote: »

I see this as you being upset that your DW magicka build doesn't get the benefit from heavy attacks that a staff magicka build or a DW/2h stamina build gets.

You realize that staffs have their own advantage of doing the attack from range? Bow heavy attacks can also be reflected. And all heavy attacks can be dodged by major evasion, which you have easy magicka-based access to on your nightblade.

Heavy attacks are extremely obvious animations and have a long charge time (roughly 2s). Medium Attacks (still say heavy in combat log) do a lot less damage and don't return any resources like a fully charged one does.

I love when people bring up the RANGE arguement to justify magicka gimp playstyles. More so in a game like this where ranged gap closers are highly spammable and make the whole traditional case of ranged casters should have lower damage because well range, a highly mute point. The only people who have the luxury of range in this game is Bow users and guess what? That's stamina not magicka.

But w/e keep talking about things you should not be talking about. Unless you are just attempting to troll the people on the forums then by all means continue, I'll get my popcorn out and watch the show.

Kutsuu · December 2016

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

I see this as you being upset that your DW magicka build doesn't get the benefit from heavy attacks that a staff magicka build or a DW/2h stamina build gets.

You realize that staffs have their own advantage of doing the attack from range? Bow heavy attacks can also be reflected. And all heavy attacks can be dodged by major evasion, which you have easy magicka-based access to on your nightblade.

Heavy attacks are extremely obvious animations and have a long charge time (roughly 2s). Medium Attacks (still say heavy in combat log) do a lot less damage and don't return any resources like a fully charged one does.

I love when people bring up the RANGE arguement to justify magicka gimp playstyles. More so in a game like this where ranged gap closers are highly spammable and make the whole traditional case of ranged casters should have lower damage because well range, a highly mute point. The only people who have the luxury of range in this game is Bow users and guess what? That's stamina not magicka.

But w/e keep talking about things you should not be talking about. Unless you are just attempting to troll the people on the forums then by all means continue, I'll get my popcorn out and watch the show.

Lmao staff attacks do not have lower damage. The highest damage heavy attacks in the game right now come from inferno staffs with a build that supports it (we're talking 20k+). The point is that projectiles can be reflected, and attacks from bows plus ice and fire staffs are projectiles. Maybe the bow users should complain that there is no stamina counterpart to the lightning and resto staffs with heavy attacks that can't be reflected.

You acting like range has no advantages simply because someone can gap close is laughable.

cschwingeb14_ESO · December 2016

Range has advantages, but also disadvantages too. Sure, only 1 in 4 classes can reflect. But with limited slots, you can't just swap out skills when you see a DK. You have to play around the wings that they control.

thankyourat · December 2016

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Kutsuu wrote: »

I see this as you being upset that your DW magicka build doesn't get the benefit from heavy attacks that a staff magicka build or a DW/2h stamina build gets.

You realize that staffs have their own advantage of doing the attack from range? Bow heavy attacks can also be reflected. And all heavy attacks can be dodged by major evasion, which you have easy magicka-based access to on your nightblade.

Heavy attacks are extremely obvious animations and have a long charge time (roughly 2s). Medium Attacks (still say heavy in combat log) do a lot less damage and don't return any resources like a fully charged one does.

I love when people bring up the RANGE arguement to justify magicka gimp playstyles. More so in a game like this where ranged gap closers are highly spammable and make the whole traditional case of ranged casters should have lower damage because well range, a highly mute point. The only people who have the luxury of range in this game is Bow users and guess what? That's stamina not magicka.

But w/e keep talking about things you should not be talking about. Unless you are just attempting to troll the people on the forums then by all means continue, I'll get my popcorn out and watch the show.

I find range to be somewhat of a advantage. What I like to do is stay in that 6 to 10 meter range. That way the only ability a melee fighter can hit me with is a gap closer. As a ranged build you should also have some anti melee abilities on your bar like mines or shade. Ranged builds are really good at keeping pressure off them. The playstyle is a little gimped in open world cyrodiil because often times people will just hide behind trees and rocks forcing you to fight in melee range. Overall though I feel range has alot of advantages at least for my playstyle. I main a magblade and I find kiting and destro staff to be very smooth and effective

DHale · December 2016

Heavy attack needs changed...... ha ha ha ha. Good one!

kaithuzar · January 2017

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Range has advantages, but also disadvantages too. Sure, only 1 in 4 classes can reflect. But with limited slots, you can't just swap out skills when you see a DK. You have to play around the wings that they control.

Wrong.
Are you forgetting about the sword & board reflect i.e.. defensive posture

Cinbri · January 2017

That feeling when heavy attack deal more damage than Incap Strike ult...