Reason why MMORPGs went from playing with others to solo

Darkstorne · December 2016

MMOs are embracing solo play because, it turns out, that's what most people want. We're finally leaving the mentality that "every game needs multiplayer" behind (except for FFXV, but poor Square have been behind the curve for two generations now...), and "the more multiplayer a game is, the better."

Skyrim launched without any multiplayer whatsoever, sold over 20 million copies, boasted an average engagement time of 70+ hours. Destiny is the first big MMO to have embraced solo play by keeping the majority of player interaction to the main city hub and to dungeons/raids/PVP. Destiny has been a colossal success, and solves SO MANY common MMO issues by making the majority of a traditional MMO levelling experience solo. When you're told you are a chosen hero, you don't look around at all the other heroes bunny hopping in the area and have to pretend they aren't really there. When a quest NPC comments that they haven't seen anyone else for thousands of years (genuinely happens in an ESO quest, from a ghost in an ancient library) again, you have to pretend the half dozen other players who got here before you aren't really there. Solo questing fixes all that. Solo environments would mean MMOs can finally get away without peppering their landscapes with a bazillion mobs acting as nothing but exp pinatas. They could keep mob spawns to immersive numbers, focus more on making them fit into and interact with the world, and massively increase their exp output to compensate. Dungeons could be set up similarly, no respawns, design focused on the atmosphere, and not have players rushing through before the respawns pop, hoping the final boss is still up and not killed by other players. You could immerse yourself more in the world, and worry less about the gamey MMO mechanics we're all tacitly asked to ignore.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN MMOS ARE BECOMING ANTI-SOCIAL.

I've played MMOs since Lineage 2. Long before WoW started, and certainly before the solo-play trend began. This myth of a time when players all tipped their hats to one another and commented on the beautiful weather is literally that: a myth. If we had to fight a boss for the chance of a loot drop, and the only difference between then and now was whether loot was global or not, then that was the only time we chose to speak - when we needed to make a case for why we needed the loot, or when we needed to type /Yell THAT GUY RAN OFF WITH THE ****ING LOOT!

Social interactions have always come primarily from town/city hubs, from guilds, and from group dungeons where players need to work together and communicate to get a job done. In all other situations, certainly for levelling, questing, dungeons balanced for 1 player but where you can (and usually will in this game) run into other players, solo play is always going to be preferred by the majority. Best get used to it, because even if ESO isn't updated to make exterior locations mostly solo phased (with exceptions for group areas like dolmens and public dungeons) future MMOs will be designed that way. Destiny has followed the trend and the stats and proven that this is what the majority want. And guess what? It doesn't make an MMO any less social. Guilds are still awesome to be a part of, and group content is still as popular as ever.

Aletheion · December 2016

Some people don't like me because I'm an individual.

-Aletheion

ookami007 · December 2016

inflaburwb17_ESO wrote: »

I honestly think that the group finder should have an additional filter, where a player can tick either a "serious / hardcore " or a "casual / relaxed" tickbox, and be grouped accordingly.

That is one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time!

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Well there are games that have done it properly Doctor. you can find balance between the two. A lot of the games you are describing were poorly designed. SWTOR Raids are some of the easiest content to access they have a raid finder different tiers and most of it is easily done pugged in the raid finder. SWTOR content is very accessible which makes me think you have not played the game since launch. Its EEEEzzzzz and very friendly to the casual.

I don't think ive played a game were grouping was required to level even the old school ones . Duoing was fun and helped encourage making allies and friends.

Properly done is tiering the dungeons to help players build the skill for the upper echelon of group play. truthfully haveing 90% of the four mans you don't even need roles or abilities to complete is friggin ridiculous.

I dont understand what your talking about on SOTH dungeons. they were challenging but hardly completeable by only 10 % of the population. there were only maybe a boss or two that road blocked those dungeons. and once you had a good leader willing to gut out the dungeons with a group the mechanics were teachable. shoot ive run both dungeons near 50 times and maybe five of those runs were done from a pre made on team speak to try to get the skins. I would say it was more of a CP and new player skill problem. its was maybe a 70% 30% split ion completion. Ive taughT VWGT VICP and SOTH many times to first runners. the hardcore community just runs 4 dps through them Doctor so your statement they wont even do them i don't know where your getting that from. the issue now is most of the people that have the mechanics wired there dont want to do them because the rewards are crap compared to stuff you can craft. and the monster helms are useless compared to others.

As for wildstar and the other games you described champions those games died and went stagnant because they were poorly designed had major internal issues with their development teams.

No i dont think anyone wants the game to not have casual content. man this whole game is casual the only thing that is not is the V trials you can do every thing in this game by yourself , shoot the high CP skilled guys are friggin soloing SOTH dungeons!!.

We agree on some Stuff Doctor but for longevity. not having dungeons that tier up in skill and rewards , and making everything soloable has destroyed the community of this game it churns so fast in the player base you cant even make any relationships in game. Pumping out valueless pure single player DLC's and screwing the community with 60 dollar skins in repurposed DLC's is a sign fonzy just jumped a shark pit on water ski's

I did play Swtor. It was easy to get into and I did not play the raids, but I talked to -many people- while I was there and heard that debaucle. In case you dont understand what that was, that was when the Swtor devs invited the top raiding guild onto the PTS to tweak their raid exclusively, for that raid group. The result? When it went live it had to be immediately nerfed to even be in the league of most of the raid community.

(Forgive me, due to your spelling this is where I start to have trouble comprehending what your posting.)

The place I'm geting the 'they wont do them' from is multiple people, guildleads, top healers, top DPS of raid guilds who look at pledges for the day and simply dont want to do them. Flat out. Because their hard as balls and they wanna have fun that day and dont feel like giving their A game, they just wanna relax. Though, the fact you think Velindreth is useless, allready tells me you are not fit to talk on this topic.

Wildstar may have died due to massive internal issues but I guarentee, though this is specultion, that how little money they were making for a game tailor made to a hardcore audience that wasn't as big as they thought it would be, caused those internal issues. When people overextend, they run out of steam and have to justify to shareholders where all the money they promised them is.

The skilled guys are soloing shadows of the hist dungeons. Great. Now name more than 50 individuals who can successfully claim that. They are the exeption, not the rule, and no matter how much you want the reverse to be true, it will never be true. The anomoly is not the norm.

We agree on nothing. I dont want to make everything soloable, quit lying about what i believe and what I want. For clarification, I want:

-A system that either goes the way of guildwars 2 or traditional MMO roles with rigid classes. Either give us the true freedom to run a character we want to make, like plenty other games have, or give us extremely rigid classes and roles and let us take it or leave it.

-Difficulty tweaks. I would like three difficulty settings, one for beginners, one for most to run on a saturday night, and for those suicidle masochists who feel like hurting themselves.

-Progression based on content you want to do. Give the raiders better tools to do raids with as they do raids. Give the dungeoneers more tools to succeed where they wish. With as little emphasis on gear as possible. Loadout, and tactics, and mechanics, over gear.

-And finally, whether or not ZOS intends to go with system one, or system two, guildwars 2 or WoW class design, let healtanks be viable.

@Wifeaggro13 That is as clear as I can make it. Do not lie about my position again.

PS: "They were poorly designed" is a cop out arguement and unless you can point to a single aspect of design that didn't do what it was supposed to (And I can eviscerate this game from it's basic philosophy up) you dont get to make that arguement.

I can make what ever argument i want. and yes my spelling was bad on phone at the time by the way you misspelled argument. its not arguement lol. and suicidle is suicidal . and Velindreth is Velidreth. and yes its not BIS for monster helms for DPS nor tank nor heal.

I dont know the three Trial guilds i have run them and they have V mol clears. And they pug quite a bit of their other V trials . you just want to insult and flame people with your tone and have no interest in having a conversation. Not fit to speak on the topic yet im not the one who is in here saying their to hard and have 30 to 40 plus clears on both of those dungeons . matter o fact i logged in and Decon'd a bunch of Veli helms and shoulders yesterday.

Tandor · December 2016

JD2013 wrote: »

The thing is that Elder Scrolls Online has, since day one of being live, both been hampered and flourished at the same time because of solo players coming over from traditional Elder Scrolls games.

A lot of people came into the game expecting the same kind of experience that you get from a normal Elder Scrolls game - and that was never going to be the case. This is, and always will be an MMO with an Elder Scrolls flavour. But people never stopped treating it like it was Elder Scrolls VI. This is why we have so much solo PVE content, and a lot less group content.

When Craglorn first came right until Update 12, people barely touched the zone. They hated having to group up to do quests (and indeed having to RELY on grouping up to do quests) which is why it was switched over to be able to do most of it solo or with one other player.

This game is, to my mind, the most solo MMORPG that I have ever played. I love it and hate it for that very same reason. During the days of early WoW, I remember how social it was. How raids and dungeons were so much fun to do, how much fun PVP was. I can honestly, hand on heart say that I have never had that level of interactivity from players in this game despite having been in guilds since day one. Sometimes I miss WoW because of that. But you can never go back and things be the same as they were.

I wonder if this game is designed to be less social, or it is just that people in this game are less social? I don't know.

I would like to see this game have more social features, as I feel that we are missing out somewhat on that which is a vital experience of the MMO. Yes, some people are D-bags. Undeniably. But there are also a lot of good and fun people out there in Tamriel.

I think the main reason players don't develop the same level of social and community cohesion in ESO as in other MMOs is because most of those players who would normally socialise in a game belong to five guilds rather than just one.

Ask regular EQ2 players, for example, how they would feel about being able to join up to five guilds and I think they'd be pretty sure that it would completely destroy the social aspect of their play as the whole community loyalty and commitment associated with the players dedicating themselves to their guild would be lost. You can truly "belong" to one guild, you can't truly "belong" to five.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Well there are games that have done it properly Doctor. you can find balance between the two. A lot of the games you are describing were poorly designed. SWTOR Raids are some of the easiest content to access they have a raid finder different tiers and most of it is easily done pugged in the raid finder. SWTOR content is very accessible which makes me think you have not played the game since launch. Its EEEEzzzzz and very friendly to the casual.

I don't think ive played a game were grouping was required to level even the old school ones . Duoing was fun and helped encourage making allies and friends.

Properly done is tiering the dungeons to help players build the skill for the upper echelon of group play. truthfully haveing 90% of the four mans you don't even need roles or abilities to complete is friggin ridiculous.

I dont understand what your talking about on SOTH dungeons. they were challenging but hardly completeable by only 10 % of the population. there were only maybe a boss or two that road blocked those dungeons. and once you had a good leader willing to gut out the dungeons with a group the mechanics were teachable. shoot ive run both dungeons near 50 times and maybe five of those runs were done from a pre made on team speak to try to get the skins. I would say it was more of a CP and new player skill problem. its was maybe a 70% 30% split ion completion. Ive taughT VWGT VICP and SOTH many times to first runners. the hardcore community just runs 4 dps through them Doctor so your statement they wont even do them i don't know where your getting that from. the issue now is most of the people that have the mechanics wired there dont want to do them because the rewards are crap compared to stuff you can craft. and the monster helms are useless compared to others.

As for wildstar and the other games you described champions those games died and went stagnant because they were poorly designed had major internal issues with their development teams.

No i dont think anyone wants the game to not have casual content. man this whole game is casual the only thing that is not is the V trials you can do every thing in this game by yourself , shoot the high CP skilled guys are friggin soloing SOTH dungeons!!.

We agree on some Stuff Doctor but for longevity. not having dungeons that tier up in skill and rewards , and making everything soloable has destroyed the community of this game it churns so fast in the player base you cant even make any relationships in game. Pumping out valueless pure single player DLC's and screwing the community with 60 dollar skins in repurposed DLC's is a sign fonzy just jumped a shark pit on water ski's

I did play Swtor. It was easy to get into and I did not play the raids, but I talked to -many people- while I was there and heard that debaucle. In case you dont understand what that was, that was when the Swtor devs invited the top raiding guild onto the PTS to tweak their raid exclusively, for that raid group. The result? When it went live it had to be immediately nerfed to even be in the league of most of the raid community.

(Forgive me, due to your spelling this is where I start to have trouble comprehending what your posting.)

The place I'm geting the 'they wont do them' from is multiple people, guildleads, top healers, top DPS of raid guilds who look at pledges for the day and simply dont want to do them. Flat out. Because their hard as balls and they wanna have fun that day and dont feel like giving their A game, they just wanna relax. Though, the fact you think Velindreth is useless, allready tells me you are not fit to talk on this topic.

Wildstar may have died due to massive internal issues but I guarentee, though this is specultion, that how little money they were making for a game tailor made to a hardcore audience that wasn't as big as they thought it would be, caused those internal issues. When people overextend, they run out of steam and have to justify to shareholders where all the money they promised them is.

The skilled guys are soloing shadows of the hist dungeons. Great. Now name more than 50 individuals who can successfully claim that. They are the exeption, not the rule, and no matter how much you want the reverse to be true, it will never be true. The anomoly is not the norm.

We agree on nothing. I dont want to make everything soloable, quit lying about what i believe and what I want. For clarification, I want:

-A system that either goes the way of guildwars 2 or traditional MMO roles with rigid classes. Either give us the true freedom to run a character we want to make, like plenty other games have, or give us extremely rigid classes and roles and let us take it or leave it.

-Difficulty tweaks. I would like three difficulty settings, one for beginners, one for most to run on a saturday night, and for those suicidle masochists who feel like hurting themselves.

-Progression based on content you want to do. Give the raiders better tools to do raids with as they do raids. Give the dungeoneers more tools to succeed where they wish. With as little emphasis on gear as possible. Loadout, and tactics, and mechanics, over gear.

-And finally, whether or not ZOS intends to go with system one, or system two, guildwars 2 or WoW class design, let healtanks be viable.

@Wifeaggro13 That is as clear as I can make it. Do not lie about my position again.

PS: "They were poorly designed" is a cop out arguement and unless you can point to a single aspect of design that didn't do what it was supposed to (And I can eviscerate this game from it's basic philosophy up) you dont get to make that arguement.

I can make what ever argument i want. and yes my spelling was bad on phone at the time by the way you misspelled argument. its not arguement lol. and suicidle is suicidal . and Velindreth is Velidreth. and yes its not BIS for monster helms for DPS nor tank nor heal.

I dont know the three Trial guilds i have run them and they have V mol clears. And they pug quite a bit of their other V trials . you just want to insult and flame people with your tone and have no interest in having a conversation. Not fit to speak on the topic yet im not the one who is in here saying their to hard and have 30 to 40 plus clears on both of those dungeons . matter o fact i logged in and Decon'd a bunch of Veli helms and shoulders yesterday.

There is no point attempting a conversation if one knows it will not be possible.

In any case, this isn't a thread -about- the whole 'difficulty' and 'epeen' thing so I'll stop derailing it anymore than I already have. I'm just not going to pretend to try to have a conversation when I know the result is going to be failure.

Tai-Chi · December 2016

EvilCroc wrote: »

MMORPGs went solo. And this is good, right? Am I missing something?

MMORPG simply means Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is not necessarily symomymous with, or exclusive to, the following types of play - but of course, it can be.

PvP
PvE
Group play
Solo play

Not a day goe by without one or other of the above types of play coming in for a lot of stick or sarcasm from other players. It seems to be more prevalent against Solo play. Set in the above context, Solo Play is as much a part of MMOG/MMORPGs as Group Play.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Tai-Chi wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

MMORPGs went solo. And this is good, right? Am I missing something?

MMORPG simply means Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is not necessarily symomymous with, or exclusive to, the following types of play - but of course, it can be.
PvP

PvE

Group play

Solo play

Not a day goe by without one or other of the above types of play coming in for a lot of stick or sarcasm from other players. It seems to be more prevalent against Solo play. Set in the above context, Solo Play is as much a part of MMOG/MMORPGs as Group Play.

No one is saying get rid of solo play. 95% of the game is done solo.the best weapons in game drop in a solo only instance. Don't just design all your content around solo centric players. Many people like group play, and hard group content. The last 3 dlc's have been all solo. I don't consider Soth even a dlc those dungeons should have been given free

Tandor · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tai-Chi wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

MMORPGs went solo. And this is good, right? Am I missing something?

MMORPG simply means Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is not necessarily symomymous with, or exclusive to, the following types of play - but of course, it can be.
PvP

PvE

Group play

Solo play

Not a day goe by without one or other of the above types of play coming in for a lot of stick or sarcasm from other players. It seems to be more prevalent against Solo play. Set in the above context, Solo Play is as much a part of MMOG/MMORPGs as Group Play.

No one is saying get rid of solo play. 95% of the game is done solo.the best weapons in game drop in a solo only instance. Don't just design all your content around solo centric players. Many people like group play, and hard group content. The last 3 dlc's have been all solo. I don't consider Soth even a dlc those dungeons should have been given free

It's funny how whenever some people are given the content they want in a DLC they end up complaining that they never get any DLCs for them. PvPers say they've never had any new content since launch and justify that by dismissing Imperial City as not being a PvP DLC while they also don't regard dueling as PvP or new content, and now here's a grouper complaining that the last 3 DLCs were all solo when one was palpably group content but should apparently have been free. I know you can't please everybody all of the time but it seems at least with ESO that you can't please some people any of the time

!

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tai-Chi wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

MMORPGs went solo. And this is good, right? Am I missing something?

MMORPG simply means Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is not necessarily symomymous with, or exclusive to, the following types of play - but of course, it can be.
PvP

PvE

Group play

Solo play

Not a day goe by without one or other of the above types of play coming in for a lot of stick or sarcasm from other players. It seems to be more prevalent against Solo play. Set in the above context, Solo Play is as much a part of MMOG/MMORPGs as Group Play.

No one is saying get rid of solo play. 95% of the game is done solo.the best weapons in game drop in a solo only instance. Don't just design all your content around solo centric players. Many people like group play, and hard group content. The last 3 dlc's have been all solo. I don't consider Soth even a dlc those dungeons should have been given free

It's funny how whenever some people are given the content they want in a DLC they end up complaining that they never get any DLCs for them. PvPers say they've never had any new content since launch and justify that by dismissing Imperial City as not being a PvP DLC while they also don't regard dueling as PvP or new content, and now here's a grouper complaining that the last 3 DLCs were all solo when one was palpably group content but should apparently have been free. I know you can't please everybody all of the time but it seems at least with ESO that you can't please some people any of the time !

Lol I guess maybe. I just am not a fan of the corporate mmo . We always end up short changed as the consumer. The game is slowly going P2W in some regards . Crown crate mounts and skins are a very very bad sign. None of that stuff can be aquire by playing the game. They want you to sub for crafting bags, buy crown crates to gamble for your special snowflake barbie doll content, and buy tiny solo player dlc's with weak story . The problem is I don't think they are trying to please anyone they are all about milking their player base for every penny they can then shut the lights off

Tandor · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tai-Chi wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

MMORPGs went solo. And this is good, right? Am I missing something?

MMORPG simply means Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is not necessarily symomymous with, or exclusive to, the following types of play - but of course, it can be.
PvP

PvE

Group play

Solo play

Not a day goe by without one or other of the above types of play coming in for a lot of stick or sarcasm from other players. It seems to be more prevalent against Solo play. Set in the above context, Solo Play is as much a part of MMOG/MMORPGs as Group Play.

No one is saying get rid of solo play. 95% of the game is done solo.the best weapons in game drop in a solo only instance. Don't just design all your content around solo centric players. Many people like group play, and hard group content. The last 3 dlc's have been all solo. I don't consider Soth even a dlc those dungeons should have been given free

It's funny how whenever some people are given the content they want in a DLC they end up complaining that they never get any DLCs for them. PvPers say they've never had any new content since launch and justify that by dismissing Imperial City as not being a PvP DLC while they also don't regard dueling as PvP or new content, and now here's a grouper complaining that the last 3 DLCs were all solo when one was palpably group content but should apparently have been free. I know you can't please everybody all of the time but it seems at least with ESO that you can't please some people any of the time !

Lol I guess maybe. I just am not a fan of the corporate mmo . We always end up short changed as the consumer. The game is slowly going P2W in some regards . Crown crate mounts and skins are a very very bad sign. None of that stuff can be aquire by playing the game. They want you to sub for crafting bags, buy crown crates to gamble for your special snowflake barbie doll content, and buy tiny solo player dlc's with weak story . The problem is I don't think they are trying to please anyone they are all about milking their player base for every penny they can then shut the lights off

I don't have a problem with any of that. The crates are purely optional and don't have anything necessary for the enjoyment of the game in them while generating additional revenue from those who choose to buy them, the DLCs are only paid for if you don't subscribe which is only fair as you need to pay for the game somehow, and the crafting bag is a decent incentive/reward for subscribing. There isn't even a hint of P2W about the game. I've been playing since PC launch and have subscribed since then with no noticeable change in the way I play the game or pay for it. I get that some people would feel they had less to complain about if they had it all for free, but that's not a realistic option - and I'm guessing they'd still find something to complain about anyway

!

Rickter · December 2016

I think its because the player base is in actuality toxic.

Seriously, i love group play. i think group play is fantastic. But in a game without true "laws" it becomes all about "who you know". Look at pvp - to get emp, you gotta know somebody. or have a decent sized guild to back you up.

that on top of the fact that questing in a group becomes a chore at times. ALSO lets not forget that ESO is gaining a lot of popularity from Skyrim players - who are solo.

so naturally, ZOS would want to emulate that success and provide that option for players that dont want to play the circle jerk game and just enjoy ESO as it is with the OPTION to go multiplayer should they wish it

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

Rickter wrote: »

I think its because the player base is in actuality toxic.

Seriously, i love group play. i think group play is fantastic. But in a game without true "laws" it becomes all about "who you know". Look at pvp - to get emp, you gotta know somebody. or have a decent sized guild to back you up.

that on top of the fact that questing in a group becomes a chore at times. ALSO lets not forget that ESO is gaining a lot of popularity from Skyrim players - who are solo.

so naturally, ZOS would want to emulate that success and provide that option for players that dont want to play the circle jerk game and just enjoy ESO as it is with the OPTION to go multiplayer should they wish it

Pretty much.

I've started to hate doing group content simply because I've started to hate interacting with this playerbase. The pidgeonhole nature of the design means that people are hostile to anything not proven to work and hostile at anyone doing things the 'wrong way'.

And I've just got sick of dealing with it. At least when things were 'casual' so to speak I didn't have to worry about direct attacks on how much I adhered to the meta.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tai-Chi wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

MMORPGs went solo. And this is good, right? Am I missing something?

MMORPG simply means Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is not necessarily symomymous with, or exclusive to, the following types of play - but of course, it can be.
PvP

PvE

Group play

Solo play

Not a day goe by without one or other of the above types of play coming in for a lot of stick or sarcasm from other players. It seems to be more prevalent against Solo play. Set in the above context, Solo Play is as much a part of MMOG/MMORPGs as Group Play.

No one is saying get rid of solo play. 95% of the game is done solo.the best weapons in game drop in a solo only instance. Don't just design all your content around solo centric players. Many people like group play, and hard group content. The last 3 dlc's have been all solo. I don't consider Soth even a dlc those dungeons should have been given free

It's funny how whenever some people are given the content they want in a DLC they end up complaining that they never get any DLCs for them. PvPers say they've never had any new content since launch and justify that by dismissing Imperial City as not being a PvP DLC while they also don't regard dueling as PvP or new content, and now here's a grouper complaining that the last 3 DLCs were all solo when one was palpably group content but should apparently have been free. I know you can't please everybody all of the time but it seems at least with ESO that you can't please some people any of the time !

Lol I guess maybe. I just am not a fan of the corporate mmo . We always end up short changed as the consumer. The game is slowly going P2W in some regards . Crown crate mounts and skins are a very very bad sign. None of that stuff can be aquire by playing the game. They want you to sub for crafting bags, buy crown crates to gamble for your special snowflake barbie doll content, and buy tiny solo player dlc's with weak story . The problem is I don't think they are trying to please anyone they are all about milking their player base for every penny they can then shut the lights off

I don't have a problem with any of that. The crates are purely optional and don't have anything necessary for the enjoyment of the game in them while generating additional revenue from those who choose to buy them, the DLCs are only paid for if you don't subscribe which is only fair as you need to pay for the game somehow, and the crafting bag is a decent incentive/reward for subscribing. There isn't even a hint of P2W about the game. I've been playing since PC launch and have subscribed since then with no noticeable change in the way I play the game or pay for it. I get that some people would feel they had less to complain about if they had it all for free, but that's not a realistic option - and I'm guessing they'd still find something to complain about anyway !

Well the hint would be the things would be for instance riding skills. those are really crucial in PVP, not so much PVE. and the Atro mounts well those are cosmetic yes but even a cash shop heavy game like TOR had those drop in actuall content as well. they could not only be aquired by gambling.

I had been playing the game since phase 1 beta , and ive always subbed unless i took a break .And truthfully i would pay 25 $ a month if they actually gave content . My biggest gripe is not crown crates truthfully its minor . my biggest gripe is the substance of content the snails pace of development compared to other triple A releases . Now ESO did a great job in making a TES game, but a poor job on the MMO part. the solo questing is hands down the best leveling experience of any MMO ive played. PVP is horrible imbalanced. and The IC DLC was excellent in terms of blending PVP with PVE. the rest of the content was stuff they had promised would be in game post 90 days to 6 months after release like the two guilds. And making those guilds all about pointless passives that have no impact on character development was very lazy.

Tandor · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tai-Chi wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

MMORPGs went solo. And this is good, right? Am I missing something?

MMORPG simply means Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is not necessarily symomymous with, or exclusive to, the following types of play - but of course, it can be.
PvP

PvE

Group play

Solo play

Not a day goe by without one or other of the above types of play coming in for a lot of stick or sarcasm from other players. It seems to be more prevalent against Solo play. Set in the above context, Solo Play is as much a part of MMOG/MMORPGs as Group Play.

No one is saying get rid of solo play. 95% of the game is done solo.the best weapons in game drop in a solo only instance. Don't just design all your content around solo centric players. Many people like group play, and hard group content. The last 3 dlc's have been all solo. I don't consider Soth even a dlc those dungeons should have been given free

It's funny how whenever some people are given the content they want in a DLC they end up complaining that they never get any DLCs for them. PvPers say they've never had any new content since launch and justify that by dismissing Imperial City as not being a PvP DLC while they also don't regard dueling as PvP or new content, and now here's a grouper complaining that the last 3 DLCs were all solo when one was palpably group content but should apparently have been free. I know you can't please everybody all of the time but it seems at least with ESO that you can't please some people any of the time !

Lol I guess maybe. I just am not a fan of the corporate mmo . We always end up short changed as the consumer. The game is slowly going P2W in some regards . Crown crate mounts and skins are a very very bad sign. None of that stuff can be aquire by playing the game. They want you to sub for crafting bags, buy crown crates to gamble for your special snowflake barbie doll content, and buy tiny solo player dlc's with weak story . The problem is I don't think they are trying to please anyone they are all about milking their player base for every penny they can then shut the lights off

I don't have a problem with any of that. The crates are purely optional and don't have anything necessary for the enjoyment of the game in them while generating additional revenue from those who choose to buy them, the DLCs are only paid for if you don't subscribe which is only fair as you need to pay for the game somehow, and the crafting bag is a decent incentive/reward for subscribing. There isn't even a hint of P2W about the game. I've been playing since PC launch and have subscribed since then with no noticeable change in the way I play the game or pay for it. I get that some people would feel they had less to complain about if they had it all for free, but that's not a realistic option - and I'm guessing they'd still find something to complain about anyway !

Well the hint would be the things would be for instance riding skills. those are really crucial in PVP, not so much PVE. and the Atro mounts well those are cosmetic yes but even a cash shop heavy game like TOR had those drop in actuall content as well. they could not only be aquired by gambling.

I had been playing the game since phase 1 beta , and ive always subbed unless i took a break .And truthfully i would pay 25 $ a month if they actually gave content . My biggest gripe is not crown crates truthfully its minor . my biggest gripe is the substance of content the snails pace of development compared to other triple A releases . Now ESO did a great job in making a TES game, but a poor job on the MMO part. the solo questing is hands down the best leveling experience of any MMO ive played. PVP is horrible imbalanced. and The IC DLC was excellent in terms of blending PVP with PVE. the rest of the content was stuff they had promised would be in game post 90 days to 6 months after release like the two guilds. And making those guilds all about pointless passives that have no impact on character development was very lazy.

P2W involves having to pay real money for things that are both essential and not otherwise available in the game. Riding skills are arguably essential (but only so for PvP), but they are available in the game and do not therefore point to P2W. Mounts as you say are purely cosmetic and are not remotely essential so they too do not point to P2W.

I'd have preferred the game to have stayed sub-only, but that could never be the case with the console release, and I do think that ZOS have lived up to their assurances thus far so far as B2P is concerned and have handled the Crown Store very well - and certainly a lot better than many other developers in similar circumstances.

qsnoopyjr · December 2016

One thing I realized about MMORPGs compared to other games like NBA2K, CoD, and other popular name brand games, its that MMORPGs there is a huge difference with players that have real life friends that play with them in these games compared to friends that would play NBA2K or CoD with them.

I think due to the lack of real life friends to play with in MMORPGs, this is why its leaning very strongly towards solo play game, even though its an oxymoron MMORPG and solo play.

Conduit0 · December 2016

MMOs went from group to solo because the majority of gamers are not teenagers, they're adults with a limited amount of play time. Nothing turns you off from a game faster than repeatedly spending what little free time you have spamming the looking for group channel because you can't even level grind without a group to help you.

Grymmoire · December 2016

Riejael wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

One of the major reasons is that loot dropped, goes to everyone, fair share of loot.

What this means is, you no longer have to make connections with people to be sure everyone is fair and possibly give you the loot because you need it. With loot being separate for everyone it also takes away the interaction, and no interaction leads to no connection with others, and having no connections leads to playing solo.

There's many reasons why MMORPGs went from playing with others to being a solo game, but I think this is one of the major reasons why.

As others have pointed out. This isn't true.

*SNIP*

There is no evidence to support you have to solo in ESO. There's no evidence to suggest that group minded players will solo instead of build relationships and group. The players who solo, want to solo. They don't want to group. Forcing them to group will mean they will go elsewhere. You can't get a solo player to have a grouping relationship with you. Doesn't work that way.

And to say loot or whatever is the cause is false. I don't group to get loot. I get loot to do content. Loot is a tool. Some may not see it that way. But they play how they wish. Not because its forced on them. They may use certain mechanics as an excuse, but in reality we're in control of our own decisions. And we ultimately play how we want to.

As denoted above and snipped for brevity, I agreed. However, I too began gaming when one had to pay by the hour for internet service (Thank God it's Dead Jim ...AOL). many games were more rudimentary Lands of Kesmai and Lords of Panteera come to mind. Most of the players I met and guilds we formed consisted of players even younger than me at the time. these we smaller than today and intimate; players took pride in helping one another.

Furthermore, most players were in school or just beginning jobs and thus had fewer responsibilities, allowing them to devote more time to their gaming pursuits. As the decades progressed however, the player base aged with many assuming those responsibilities (marriage; children; more intensive work schedules etc.) decreasing their time available for gaming.

I noticed games changing direction in part, as a response to the aging gamer population i.e. more solo friendly; less time to complete group dungeons; more self-sufficiency overall. Guilds became megalopolises and interaction more distint due to extreme sizes.

Additionally, the typical format instituted in for example, EQ1, where starting areas were teaming with players at the game's introduction, and where group mobs could barely be soloed, later became graveyards when the game matured leaving new players to beg for help and often not being able to complete content, especially if they gamed at off hours. As an aside, many developers have still failed to address this "maturing" problem leaving starter area ghost towns after a few months or years. ESO seems to at least address this in their events.

Finally, I doubt anyone but extreme hardcore players want or have the time for the old fashioned corpse runs like EQ1 had. Sometimes hours of zone yells for a Necromancer and a group to drag your corpse back from some hard to obtain location; how often I was exhausted at work going in after 4 hours of fetching one corpse with 3 hours sleep...no thanks again! Nor do many players have the time (and for some the patience) for multi-hour dungeon delves.

These are imho, primary reasons games went the solo route not loot; equal content enjoyment at your own pace.

kaithuzar · December 2016

People moved to solo play because @ZOS "DOWNGRADED" their servers shortly after launch, around the same time as "the lighting patch" thus making everyone think it was the patch.
There use to be thousands fighting at a single keep with ZERO lag, after the server downgrade all of this "oh we have to fix the lag but it's complicated" started.

NO, spend the money on it & there won't be an issue. If there was any guarantee from ZOS that my X dollars per month were going to server cost to get us a better experience I & many others would have NO PROBLEM PAYING!

I do agree that some code just needs to be done right, however there is no reason they don't already have all of the data together around what needs to be fixed after nearly 3 years of production beta testing known as the current game; ESO.

@ZOS if your current staff can't handle the task of fixing the code then increase what you're willing to pay a developer to get one that is capable of fixing things!
You don't need a staff of 20 lazy developers, you need a staff of 3-5 good ones.

As stated above, if there was some announcement or something that said "we're going to fix things but need more money to do so" people would gladly donate for the cause.

SunfireKnight86 · December 2016

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

One of the major reasons is that loot dropped, goes to everyone, fair share of loot.

What this means is, you no longer have to make connections with people to be sure everyone is fair and possibly give you the loot because you need it. With loot being separate for everyone it also takes away the interaction, and no interaction leads to no connection with others, and having no connections leads to playing solo.

Look at GW2, go do a megaboss, no interaction with people, everyone knows what is expected of them, get there own loot table, leave. No interaction at all, solo game. Yes giving everyone there own loot tables removes conflict. But the cons of it is that nobody interacts with each other, and no conflict is created and without conflict you feel like your playing the game all by yourself, with conflict you make enemies, and make friends as well. Gives you a reason to keep playing.

There's many reasons why MMORPGs went from playing with others to being a solo game, but I think this is one of the major reasons why.

You didn't "make a connection with people to make sure things were fair". That's the very height of rose colored glasses. You joined guilds and raids so you could get shafted on drops unless you called it weeks/months in advance, knew the leader, or kissed tons of ass. The content was harder, nearly impossible to complete in some cases, and only played by 1% of the population.

MMOs stopped catering to that crowd because they realized they could make more money by not. Lo and behold, the first MMO to take that stance and cater to casuals, WoW, has led the market for over a decade now. Even with the sun setting on its glory days, it still leads the way in both profit and catering to casuals.

You can connect with plenty of people if you try. You don't need artificially difficult content for that. If you want that same old fashioned BS, there was a custom made MMO just for that: Wildstar. Look what happened to it.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tai-Chi wrote: »

EvilCroc wrote: »

MMORPGs went solo. And this is good, right? Am I missing something?

MMORPG simply means Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
It is not necessarily symomymous with, or exclusive to, the following types of play - but of course, it can be.
PvP

PvE

Group play

Solo play

Not a day goe by without one or other of the above types of play coming in for a lot of stick or sarcasm from other players. It seems to be more prevalent against Solo play. Set in the above context, Solo Play is as much a part of MMOG/MMORPGs as Group Play.

No one is saying get rid of solo play. 95% of the game is done solo.the best weapons in game drop in a solo only instance. Don't just design all your content around solo centric players. Many people like group play, and hard group content. The last 3 dlc's have been all solo. I don't consider Soth even a dlc those dungeons should have been given free

It's funny how whenever some people are given the content they want in a DLC they end up complaining that they never get any DLCs for them. PvPers say they've never had any new content since launch and justify that by dismissing Imperial City as not being a PvP DLC while they also don't regard dueling as PvP or new content, and now here's a grouper complaining that the last 3 DLCs were all solo when one was palpably group content but should apparently have been free. I know you can't please everybody all of the time but it seems at least with ESO that you can't please some people any of the time !

Lol I guess maybe. I just am not a fan of the corporate mmo . We always end up short changed as the consumer. The game is slowly going P2W in some regards . Crown crate mounts and skins are a very very bad sign. None of that stuff can be aquire by playing the game. They want you to sub for crafting bags, buy crown crates to gamble for your special snowflake barbie doll content, and buy tiny solo player dlc's with weak story . The problem is I don't think they are trying to please anyone they are all about milking their player base for every penny they can then shut the lights off

I don't have a problem with any of that. The crates are purely optional and don't have anything necessary for the enjoyment of the game in them while generating additional revenue from those who choose to buy them, the DLCs are only paid for if you don't subscribe which is only fair as you need to pay for the game somehow, and the crafting bag is a decent incentive/reward for subscribing. There isn't even a hint of P2W about the game. I've been playing since PC launch and have subscribed since then with no noticeable change in the way I play the game or pay for it. I get that some people would feel they had less to complain about if they had it all for free, but that's not a realistic option - and I'm guessing they'd still find something to complain about anyway !

Well the hint would be the things would be for instance riding skills. those are really crucial in PVP, not so much PVE. and the Atro mounts well those are cosmetic yes but even a cash shop heavy game like TOR had those drop in actuall content as well. they could not only be aquired by gambling.

I had been playing the game since phase 1 beta , and ive always subbed unless i took a break .And truthfully i would pay 25 $ a month if they actually gave content . My biggest gripe is not crown crates truthfully its minor . my biggest gripe is the substance of content the snails pace of development compared to other triple A releases . Now ESO did a great job in making a TES game, but a poor job on the MMO part. the solo questing is hands down the best leveling experience of any MMO ive played. PVP is horrible imbalanced. and The IC DLC was excellent in terms of blending PVP with PVE. the rest of the content was stuff they had promised would be in game post 90 days to 6 months after release like the two guilds. And making those guilds all about pointless passives that have no impact on character development was very lazy.

P2W involves having to pay real money for things that are both essential and not otherwise available in the game. Riding skills are arguably essential (but only so for PvP), but they are available in the game and do not therefore point to P2W. Mounts as you say are purely cosmetic and are not remotely essential so they too do not point to P2W.

I'd have preferred the game to have stayed sub-only, but that could never be the case with the console release, and I do think that ZOS have lived up to their assurances thus far so far as B2P is concerned and have handled the Crown Store very well - and certainly a lot better than many other developers in similar circumstances.

I agree. I would have liked a sub. Content would have been richer

Jeremy · December 2016

[

SunfireKnight86 wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

One of the major reasons is that loot dropped, goes to everyone, fair share of loot.

What this means is, you no longer have to make connections with people to be sure everyone is fair and possibly give you the loot because you need it. With loot being separate for everyone it also takes away the interaction, and no interaction leads to no connection with others, and having no connections leads to playing solo.

Look at GW2, go do a megaboss, no interaction with people, everyone knows what is expected of them, get there own loot table, leave. No interaction at all, solo game. Yes giving everyone there own loot tables removes conflict. But the cons of it is that nobody interacts with each other, and no conflict is created and without conflict you feel like your playing the game all by yourself, with conflict you make enemies, and make friends as well. Gives you a reason to keep playing.

There's many reasons why MMORPGs went from playing with others to being a solo game, but I think this is one of the major reasons why.

You didn't "make a connection with people to make sure things were fair". That's the very height of rose colored glasses. You joined guilds and raids so you could get shafted on drops unless you called it weeks/months in advance, knew the leader, or kissed tons of ass. The content was harder, nearly impossible to complete in some cases, and only played by 1% of the population.

MMOs stopped catering to that crowd because they realized they could make more money by not. Lo and behold, the first MMO to take that stance and cater to casuals, WoW, has led the market for over a decade now. Even with the sun setting on its glory days, it still leads the way in both profit and catering to casuals.

You can connect with plenty of people if you try. You don't need artificially difficult content for that. If you want that same old fashioned BS, there was a custom made MMO just for that: Wildstar. Look what happened to it.

I think this is the correct answer.

MMO developers learned they could make more money by catering to people who rather solo than play in groups. I don't think loot had anything to do with it.

I'm old school and believe that soloing - while possible - should be difficult. I believe there needs to be an incentive to group up. But apparently I'm in the minority on this - and most players prefer being able to easily solo their way through 99% of Tamriel.

At least the world bosses now incentivize group-play. So that's a good change IMHO.

FearlessOne_2014 · December 2016

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

I came from a game that the highest dps got the loot competition for boss drops was huge. Healers had to make dps toons just to get anything bc there heals did not count, same for tanks. This made the game 90% dps. ESO was a breath of fresh air compared to that.

Also took 3 months of none stop grind with a group of 7 ppl called a perfect party to go from 58-59 to get to the next grind spot, was such hell

Wow, what a horrible horrible mechanic. You really have to wonder sometimes what the developers motivations are when things like this happen.

It was to force us to make a party of 1 tank 1 healer and 5 dps the mobs and bosses where built and spec for a perfect party. And the lead of the party would set the drops either to lead only random party or in order of party. sometimes right before the boss would die the lead would switch the drops to lead only and bc ur fighting u don't notice the message that would pop up saying party loot change and they would steal the loot after boss died and disband the group and port out.

Pros and cons to this kind of game same with ESO I feel ESO is way to easy to other mmos where u need a group for everything.

Then you haven't played GW2. Lol GW2 is the absolutely most causal MMO i've ever played 3rd birthday on two characters last month and this month. The only thing in GW2 that actually takes effort to do is grinding for legendary skins. The most hardcore MMO I've ever played was Eve Online, I will never forget the 3000 player battle of O2O- or the $312,000 USD of B-R iconic battle to last the whole history of gaming. Played that game for 8 to 9 years before CCP caved to the casuals and nerfed everything that took 2 to 4 years of actual IRL time training to the ground. Eve Online PvP during to periods of 2007 to 2014 inho will always be 2nd to none in the gaming industry. Nobody even tries to come close these days to include CCP themselves.

Cough cough cough. Ok now back on topic, well MMORPGs went from mandatory working together to mostly solo play. Because simple players at the upper end of the content always look down on the casuals. The hardcore PvPers mostly moved on to actually competitive dedicated PvP games. While the hardcore PvEers started playing the hardcore dedicated Co'Op RPGs that are unforgiving. MMOs like WoW, GW2, and ESO changed the gaming industry. MOBAs like LoL, DoTA, and Smite have changed the gaming industry. Now it's the time of the Co'Op RPGs like Space Engineers, Elite Dangerous, and Ark: Evolution Evolved time to change the gaming industry.

As more and more people lives become harder to maintain. Devs have the cater to these people ever changing living conditions. Or else the devs won't have a job, or make money to provide for their own.

Valencer · December 2016

I used to mostly be a solo PvEer when this game launched. I loved doing the group dungeons with PUGs on all of my characters and enjoyed the deeper mechanics of group play, but 95% of my time was spent questing/PvEing alone.
Honestly, after about half a year (end of 2014) I was about ready to quit the game. Totally bored to death.

I ended up sticking around because I started doing far more group play (both PvE and PvP, but PvP in particular) which totally re-invigorated my love for the game. There's just far more complexity to group play and that has kept me engaged far more than solo play ever could.

I guess what Im trying to say is, solo play has its' limits and when you invest enough time in the game you end up grouping more in a natural way. So what it really comes down to is how invested a specific player is in the game.

Jeremy · December 2016

Valencer wrote: »

I used to mostly be a solo PvEer when this game launched. I loved doing the group dungeons with PUGs on all of my characters and enjoyed the deeper mechanics of group play, but 95% of my time was spent questing/PvEing alone.
Honestly, after about half a year (end of 2014) I was about ready to quit the game. Totally bored to death.

I ended up sticking around because I started doing far more group play (both PvE and PvP, but PvP in particular) which totally re-invigorated my love for the game. There's just far more complexity to group play and that has kept me engaged far more than solo play ever could.

I guess what Im trying to say is, solo play has its' limits and when you invest enough time in the game you end up grouping more in a natural way. So what it really comes down to is how invested a specific player is in the game.

Agreed.

Group-play is a lot more interesting.