Reason why MMORPGs went from playing with others to solo

GreenhaloX · December 2016

I started solo because this my first MMO type game and had always played single-player game prior. I soloed all the way to reaching (former) V16 and completing Cadwell's Gold. Then, I blossomed out a bit and join a few guilds, particularly for the trading stores. Never done any group event or dungeon/trial before joining those guilds, but then got into joining groups to do those dungeons and trials. Then, discovered how, much like in real life, there are considerate and not so considerate people. Found lots of hostile, egotistical, I'm better than you/you suck, mindsets and conducts going on. Left those guilds and soloed a bit more, only group up when someone asks nicely for help. Usually, when someone asks with a please, then yes, I'm a sucker to help and group up with that good mannered someone. Currently, I only group up for vet 2. It's a gamble whether I'm in a good group that actually finish or bad ones where one or two complain or players dropping out after dying a couple times. This is MMORPG as its finest.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Well there are games that have done it properly Doctor. you can find balance between the two. A lot of the games you are describing were poorly designed. SWTOR Raids are some of the easiest content to access they have a raid finder different tiers and most of it is easily done pugged in the raid finder. SWTOR content is very accessible which makes me think you have not played the game since launch. Its EEEEzzzzz and very friendly to the casual.

I don't think ive played a game were grouping was required to level even the old school ones . Duoing was fun and helped encourage making allies and friends.

Properly done is tiering the dungeons to help players build the skill for the upper echelon of group play. truthfully haveing 90% of the four mans you don't even need roles or abilities to complete is friggin ridiculous.

I dont understand what your talking about on SOTH dungeons. they were challenging but hardly completeable by only 10 % of the population. there were only maybe a boss or two that road blocked those dungeons. and once you had a good leader willing to gut out the dungeons with a group the mechanics were teachable. shoot ive run both dungeons near 50 times and maybe five of those runs were done from a pre made on team speak to try to get the skins. I would say it was more of a CP and new player skill problem. its was maybe a 70% 30% split ion completion. Ive taughT VWGT VICP and SOTH many times to first runners. the hardcore community just runs 4 dps through them Doctor so your statement they wont even do them i don't know where your getting that from. the issue now is most of the people that have the mechanics wired there dont want to do them because the rewards are crap compared to stuff you can craft. and the monster helms are useless compared to others.

As for wildstar and the other games you described champions those games died and went stagnant because they were poorly designed had major internal issues with their development teams.

No i dont think anyone wants the game to not have casual content. man this whole game is casual the only thing that is not is the V trials you can do every thing in this game by yourself , shoot the high CP skilled guys are friggin soloing SOTH dungeons!!.

We agree on some Stuff Doctor but for longevity. not having dungeons that tier up in skill and rewards , and making everything soloable has destroyed the community of this game it churns so fast in the player base you cant even make any relationships in game. Pumping out valueless pure single player DLC's and screwing the community with 60 dollar skins in repurposed DLC's is a sign fonzy just jumped a shark pit on water ski's

DMuehlhausen · December 2016

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

One of the major reasons is that loot dropped, goes to everyone, fair share of loot.

What this means is, you no longer have to make connections with people to be sure everyone is fair and possibly give you the loot because you need it. With loot being separate for everyone it also takes away the interaction, and no interaction leads to no connection with others, and having no connections leads to playing solo.

Look at GW2, go do a megaboss, no interaction with people, everyone knows what is expected of them, get there own loot table, leave. No interaction at all, solo game. Yes giving everyone there own loot tables removes conflict. But the cons of it is that nobody interacts with each other, and no conflict is created and without conflict you feel like your playing the game all by yourself, with conflict you make enemies, and make friends as well. Gives you a reason to keep playing.

There's many reasons why MMORPGs went from playing with others to being a solo game, but I think this is one of the major reasons why.

Simply put people whined and whined and whined. I should be able to acqure everything on my own even though we are suppose to play with each other.

That is the main reason. The other was developers realized make the game easier and more people will play and pay.

Ravena · December 2016

I'm introverted, I like it this way. Wouldn't be in ESO otherwise.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Tandor wrote: »

Bearing in mind that most people come to MMOs from single-player RPGs, and that most players are sitting alone at their computer relying on other activities for their social life, it's arguable that the only reason grouping was so popular in the early days of MMOs is because it was the only way of playing those games that was viable.Once developers made the games easier for the soloer most players switched to the playstyle they may well have preferred from the outset - especially now that with a number of years playing MMOs behind them they have reached the stage in life where family, work and other responsibilities mean they can no longer make the sort of commitment to fellow players that used to be necessary for example when camping a spot in early EQ with a couple of minutes downtime for mana and health regeneration between each fight! It's not just the games that have evolved, the players have too.

some people . a large portion of the community has several MMO;s under their belts. your statement maybe true for the console though. its simply not the case with the PC not even remotely close. the industry switched the style to increase box sales and make it an easier entry level for the new to MMO player. hta was around 2008 the major change happened. they have kept this line of development because its easier to develop the game world only having to worry about balance on a small level of content.

Tandor · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Bearing in mind that most people come to MMOs from single-player RPGs, and that most players are sitting alone at their computer relying on other activities for their social life, it's arguable that the only reason grouping was so popular in the early days of MMOs is because it was the only way of playing those games that was viable.Once developers made the games easier for the soloer most players switched to the playstyle they may well have preferred from the outset - especially now that with a number of years playing MMOs behind them they have reached the stage in life where family, work and other responsibilities mean they can no longer make the sort of commitment to fellow players that used to be necessary for example when camping a spot in early EQ with a couple of minutes downtime for mana and health regeneration between each fight! It's not just the games that have evolved, the players have too.

some people . a large portion of the community has several MMO;s under their belts. your statement maybe true for the console though. its simply not the case with the PC not even remotely close. the industry switched the style to increase box sales and make it an easier entry level for the new to MMO player. hta was around 2008 the major change happened. they have kept this line of development because its easier to develop the game world only having to worry about balance on a small level of content.

I'm not clear if you've understood my point or not. I'm not saying most people have come to this MMO from a single-player RPG, rather that they have come to MMOs in general from that background. Most have indeed played multiple MMOs over a number of years (although in the case of ESO there's a large contingent of players who have played the TES games and are new to MMOs). A lot of players here, however, will have started out at the beginning of the MMORPG genre, myself included. We grouped then because we had to. I can't talk for console players, I've never been one, but I do know that a lot of those playing ESO on console have a PC background including MMOs in general and ESO in particular.

The change came about earlier than you suggest. WoW and EQ2 both released in 2004 and even in their initial form were far more solo-friendly than the previous generation of MMOs, although I recall having early discussions with Scott Hartsman about making further changes to EQ2 and WoW of course has been on a permanent dumbing-down exercise pretty much since it was launched. Both games still have decent group content for those that want it of course.

As for increasing box sales, EQ2 quickly stopped selling boxed copies fairly early on and pretty well all MMOs have been digital download only for a considerable time. Developers switched more content to solo-friendly because they could see from their data logs that most people play solo most of the time. However, the two most important changes that were made to increase player numbers weren't the switch in soloability, they were the changes made to launchers/installers so that you could start playing while still downloading the game, and of course the introduction of F2P.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

One of the major reasons is that loot dropped, goes to everyone, fair share of loot.

What this means is, you no longer have to make connections with people to be sure everyone is fair and possibly give you the loot because you need it. With loot being separate for everyone it also takes away the interaction, and no interaction leads to no connection with others, and having no connections leads to playing solo.

Look at GW2, go do a megaboss, no interaction with people, everyone knows what is expected of them, get there own loot table, leave. No interaction at all, solo game. Yes giving everyone there own loot tables removes conflict. But the cons of it is that nobody interacts with each other, and no conflict is created and without conflict you feel like your playing the game all by yourself, with conflict you make enemies, and make friends as well. Gives you a reason to keep playing.

There's many reasons why MMORPGs went from playing with others to being a solo game, but I think this is one of the major reasons why.

Simply put people whined and whined and whined. I should be able to acqure everything on my own even though we are suppose to play with each other.

That is the main reason. The other was developers realized make the game easier and more people will play and pay.

and it made an easier game to make as well.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Tandor wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Bearing in mind that most people come to MMOs from single-player RPGs, and that most players are sitting alone at their computer relying on other activities for their social life, it's arguable that the only reason grouping was so popular in the early days of MMOs is because it was the only way of playing those games that was viable.Once developers made the games easier for the soloer most players switched to the playstyle they may well have preferred from the outset - especially now that with a number of years playing MMOs behind them they have reached the stage in life where family, work and other responsibilities mean they can no longer make the sort of commitment to fellow players that used to be necessary for example when camping a spot in early EQ with a couple of minutes downtime for mana and health regeneration between each fight! It's not just the games that have evolved, the players have too.

some people . a large portion of the community has several MMO;s under their belts. your statement maybe true for the console though. its simply not the case with the PC not even remotely close. the industry switched the style to increase box sales and make it an easier entry level for the new to MMO player. hta was around 2008 the major change happened. they have kept this line of development because its easier to develop the game world only having to worry about balance on a small level of content.

I'm not clear if you've understood my point or not. I'm not saying most people have come to this MMO from a single-player RPG, rather that they have come to MMOs in general from that background. Most have indeed played multiple MMOs over a number of years (although in the case of ESO there's a large contingent of players who have played the TES games and are new to MMOs). A lot of players here, however, will have started out at the beginning of the MMORPG genre, myself included. We grouped then because we had to. I can't talk for console players, I've never been one, but I do know that a lot of those playing ESO on console have a PC background including MMOs in general and ESO in particular.

The change came about earlier than you suggest. WoW and EQ2 both released in 2004 and even in their initial form were far more solo-friendly than the previous generation of MMOs, although I recall having early discussions with Scott Hartsman about making further changes to EQ2 and WoW of course has been on a permanent dumbing-down exercise pretty much since it was launched. Both games still have decent group content for those that want it of course.

As for increasing box sales, EQ2 quickly stopped selling boxed copies fairly early on and pretty well all MMOs have been digital download only for a considerable time. Developers switched more content to solo-friendly because they could see from their data logs that most people play solo most of the time. However, the two most important changes that were made to increase player numbers weren't the switch in soloability, they were the changes made to launchers/installers so that you could start playing while still downloading the game, and of course the introduction of F2P.

Yes Eq2 was far more friendly in the leveling department. But it was a game with far far more depth and features then eq1. And Scott hartsman is a genius. But I'm talking about the wholesale everything is solo able but the instances sell out, the removal of roles, mechanics relying re And more on dps checks and less on group dynamics games leaning more towards abilites that have secondary utility effects and more reliance on rotation combat. That happened in about 2006.

As far as box copies that was an industry cut back as Internet got better big games got easier to deliver with out discs, which also saved money. That is a good thing. And I am fine with solo content and leveling. What the issue is , I think is the devaluing of the leveling experience. Max level has no impact you can blaze through content with zero effort consquence or any sense of accomplishment at each lvl.

I can't speak for wow I didn't like the game didn't paly much. But yes EQ needed some dumbing down. Way to much ability bloat. But group dynamics were spot on and of course you would expect them to move the game forward and make the entry level for new and returning players easier.

The main issue with this game from my perspective is the dps centric game design, the Trinity system they have is very basic. I prefer games with 5 to 6 people , CC , true utility and group content that has more reward and bite. I don't think Eso is a horribly designed game. It's just not one that has longevity to call it a home game. There speed at which they put stuff out is horrible epically for symplistic minimal design.

Look at EQ 2 2 1/2 Years, you know as well as I Eq2 had 3 full blown x pack 3 dlc,s and a complete AA system . All the while maintaing 3 x the classes . I guess my point that I was trying to make is the full blown corporate mmo is not entirely a good thing for all of the player base. It's great for the churn player , not so good for the home base player.

DragonBound · December 2016

Riejael wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Ok but that does not mean wow did not captilize on the casual mmorpg market, I played eq1 before you and after so you may want to rethink your point, eq was far from casual the things they added was much needed because it was way to time consuming it was still far from casual.

So what's your point?

I did the hardest content in Omens of War and players were still being jerks to one another outside their guilds (and sometimes to players in their guilds).

My point is casual MMOs didn't turn people into jerks. They were that way to begin with. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

I did not actually say they did in the first place what it did do was attract non gamers therefor attracting more jerks in the first place, and yes it kind of actually did create more jerks because of how idiotic kids get from social gaming.

Sigtric · December 2016

Betheny wrote: »

People moved to solo play because ----other people----

agree. people are horrible

alexkdd99 · December 2016

MattT1988 wrote: »

Everyone getting their own loot tables is fairer anyway, that's what's most important. RNG means it's never going to be completely fair, but individual loot tables is a step in the fairer direction.

I think it is because everyone needs a participation trophy. There are no really special items in this game. Or any that are just extremely hard to obtain, besides some vma weapons but that is single player anyways.

Anyone can pretty much get any item in this game without to much time. Besides vma, I can go get almost any items I want within a week. The fact so many things have 100% drop rate further proves that a lot of the changes were made so everyone gets participation trophies.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

alexkdd99 wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

Everyone getting their own loot tables is fairer anyway, that's what's most important. RNG means it's never going to be completely fair, but individual loot tables is a step in the fairer direction.

I think it is because everyone needs a participation trophy. There are no really special items in this game. Or any that are just extremely hard to obtain, besides some vma weapons but that is single player anyways.

Anyone can pretty much get any item in this game without to much time. Besides vma, I can go get almost any items I want within a week. The fact so many things have 100% drop rate further proves that a lot of the changes were made so everyone gets participation trophies.

This is exactly what is broken with their itemization. Its not about the set or the piece. its about the trait. and you can craft better then anything that is dropped with perfect traits. that make it better then almost all the sets. All the procing gear is ridiculous. the builds are flooded with it and handed out in a candy land fashion. all this makes a great enviroment for the churn base population but not for anyone who intended to play ESO as a main stay MMO.

Flameheart · December 2016

Aurielle wrote: »

Has anyone considered the possibility that an aging core MMORPG playerbase may have contributed to the rise in soloing? Many of us here cut our MMO teeth on games like EQ, AC, WoW, LOTRO, etc. I'm one of them: started playing WoW in 2006, and LOTRO in 2008. I was in my late teens/early 20s back then, with no real attachments to speak of. I had plenty of free time to raid, participate in guild/kin events, and do other group-focused things. Fast forward to today: I'm almost 30, I have a long-term boyfriend (who doesn't play ESO), and I'm in an incredibly demanding academic program that will lead to an even more demanding job. Sh*t, I don't have time to group up as much as I used to. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for other former raiders who now have babies and minor hockey games to attend, and so on.

Here's an interesting article on how gamer motivations have a tendency to favour less competition with age: http://quanticfoundry.com/2016/02/10/gamer-generation/ There'll always be outliers, of course, but it's possible that as we age, we just aren't that interested in raid achievements and leaderboards anymore. Or, rather, we may still be generally interested in those sorts of things, but can't/won't invest the time needed to get there, so we do other stuff in-game that we enjoy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, IMO. I know for me, as well, I have less tolerance for BS than I did when I was younger and still felt the need to fit in/prove myself. I'm comfortable in my own gaming skin now and don't care about speed runs or BiS gear anymore; I just want to escape from RL for a little while and have a bit of fun. I have no patience for punk *** kids bellowing at a normal dungeon group for not clearing said dungeon in less than five minutes. I'd rather solo than deal with that, honestly. Fortunately, I haven't come across too many punk *** kids during my time here.

You have my vote. I am 48 years old, an old hand when it comes to MMOs (EQ, EQ2, WoW, LotRO, SWTOR, LotRO again, ESO) and I still call myself a group player. I do my daylies, I go raiding 2-3 times a week, I collect achievements if possible, leaderboard ranks aren't my thing too, but my profession, my job and my RL predetermine the pace and not the game anymore.

The only thing I might see somewhat different as you is, that as a man who is working in teams and even leading positions I damned like it, if things are working as intended, which means I am rather short tempered if people start to *** up group playing because of personal incompetence and not being able to cooperate. I like my daylies fast and smooth.

but I am also able to be pretty pleased to not log into the game for a day or two, or just do some solo stuff like questing or fishing or collecting Eidetic Memory stuff.

Some people here moan, ESO is not "hardcore" enough, some think it's not group focused enough, some want even more solo and cosmetic stuff.

Sounds like ESO might have the perfect balance for MMO newcomers from Solo RPGs like the TES sequels and older players.
Imho Zenimax is melking the cow in perfect rythm, because from a business point of view Zenimax is absolutely right to not just care for "hardcore" players which like tough group centric content but for solo and roleplayers too (especially for ones which came over from the TES games and never played a MMO before).

I can live with that, because it makes sure, that the game stays healthy.

JD2013 · December 2016

The thing is that Elder Scrolls Online has, since day one of being live, both been hampered and flourished at the same time because of solo players coming over from traditional Elder Scrolls games.

A lot of people came into the game expecting the same kind of experience that you get from a normal Elder Scrolls game - and that was never going to be the case. This is, and always will be an MMO with an Elder Scrolls flavour. But people never stopped treating it like it was Elder Scrolls VI. This is why we have so much solo PVE content, and a lot less group content.

When Craglorn first came right until Update 12, people barely touched the zone. They hated having to group up to do quests (and indeed having to RELY on grouping up to do quests) which is why it was switched over to be able to do most of it solo or with one other player.

This game is, to my mind, the most solo MMORPG that I have ever played. I love it and hate it for that very same reason. During the days of early WoW, I remember how social it was. How raids and dungeons were so much fun to do, how much fun PVP was. I can honestly, hand on heart say that I have never had that level of interactivity from players in this game despite having been in guilds since day one. Sometimes I miss WoW because of that. But you can never go back and things be the same as they were.

I wonder if this game is designed to be less social, or it is just that people in this game are less social? I don't know.

I would like to see this game have more social features, as I feel that we are missing out somewhat on that which is a vital experience of the MMO. Yes, some people are D-bags. Undeniably. But there are also a lot of good and fun people out there in Tamriel.

raidentenshu_ESO · December 2016

inflaburwb17_ESO wrote: »

I blame "elitism" and intolerence. Just read the forums here of the so-called hardcore or more serious players' attitudes towards the more casual players, specifically referring to grouping for dungeons.

I honestly think that the group finder should have an additional filter, where a player can tick either a "serious / hardcore " or a "casual / relaxed" tickbox, and be grouped accordingly.

I play with my own build, and because its not a mainstream DPS or Tank or whatever build, it may not be as effective as it could be. But it works for my playing style. But I don't risk taking on dungeons as I expect abuse from the group because I'm now not doing enough damage, or have to take it a bit slower.

Reality? I have completed 1 dungeon... twice... since I started playing ESO in 2014. Fungal Grotto.

Have you read what you posted prior to submitting it? So you admit that your current build isn't good yet you blame the elitest and hardcore players for criticizing your current build because it's not abiding to the rest of the group.

When it comes down to playing group dungeons and trials your gameplay may not be the right choice, and it could have negative impact towards the rest of the group especially if you have a tank build.

Everyone in the group is expected to pull their own weight to get the job done, and if you're not doing your part then other players have the right to criticize the way you play and question your current build.

Signed
-veteran dungeons and now veteran trial player

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Flameheart wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Has anyone considered the possibility that an aging core MMORPG playerbase may have contributed to the rise in soloing? Many of us here cut our MMO teeth on games like EQ, AC, WoW, LOTRO, etc. I'm one of them: started playing WoW in 2006, and LOTRO in 2008. I was in my late teens/early 20s back then, with no real attachments to speak of. I had plenty of free time to raid, participate in guild/kin events, and do other group-focused things. Fast forward to today: I'm almost 30, I have a long-term boyfriend (who doesn't play ESO), and I'm in an incredibly demanding academic program that will lead to an even more demanding job. Sh*t, I don't have time to group up as much as I used to. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for other former raiders who now have babies and minor hockey games to attend, and so on.

Here's an interesting article on how gamer motivations have a tendency to favour less competition with age: http://quanticfoundry.com/2016/02/10/gamer-generation/ There'll always be outliers, of course, but it's possible that as we age, we just aren't that interested in raid achievements and leaderboards anymore. Or, rather, we may still be generally interested in those sorts of things, but can't/won't invest the time needed to get there, so we do other stuff in-game that we enjoy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, IMO. I know for me, as well, I have less tolerance for BS than I did when I was younger and still felt the need to fit in/prove myself. I'm comfortable in my own gaming skin now and don't care about speed runs or BiS gear anymore; I just want to escape from RL for a little while and have a bit of fun. I have no patience for punk *** kids bellowing at a normal dungeon group for not clearing said dungeon in less than five minutes. I'd rather solo than deal with that, honestly. Fortunately, I haven't come across too many punk *** kids during my time here.

You have my vote. I am 48 years old, an old hand when it comes to MMOs (EQ, EQ2, WoW, LotRO, SWTOR, LotRO again, ESO) and I still call myself a group player. I do my daylies, I go raiding 2-3 times a week, I collect achievements if possible, leaderboard ranks aren't my thing too, but my profession, my job and my RL predetermine the pace and not the game anymore.

The only thing I might see somewhat different as you is, that as a man who is working in teams and even leading positions I damned like it, if things are working as intended, which means I am rather short tempered if people start to *** up group playing because of personal incompetence and not being able to cooperate. I like my daylies fast and smooth.

but I am also able to be pretty pleased to not log into the game for a day or two, or just do some solo stuff like questing or fishing or collecting Eidetic Memory stuff.

Some people here moan, ESO is not "hardcore" enough, some think it's not group focused enough, some want even more solo and cosmetic stuff.

Sounds like ESO might have the perfect balance for MMO newcomers from Solo RPGs like the TES sequels and older players.
Imho Zenimax is melking the cow in perfect rythm, because from a business point of view Zenimax is absolutely right to not just care for "hardcore" players which like tough group centric content but for solo and roleplayers too (especially for ones which came over from the TES games and never played a MMO before).

I can live with that, because it makes sure, that the game stays healthy.

I agree I am a 46 year old gamer. I have kids career and my playtime and style depends on availability. But I still have the ability to take content seriously. I have no issue sitting down with a few friends on TS and making progression on a dungeon or raid i don't feel 3 hours is to long for the top end of a dungeon if it has 2 wings in its progression . I feel that the trial system performance being based on speed and no death leader board really does not appeal to my game desires. Risk v's reward has always been a big thing for me. The zerg style play in normal trials does nothing to prepare the new player for vr trials nor did the dumbing down of the vr four man's to the point of 4 dps runs.

My biggest problem with Eso is the path they are taking with new content. And their itemization system. I do agree it's a great game for entry players to MMOS , which is good for the console.

I think for a game design like eso there needs to be far more depth, for longevity aside form the shallow cp grind. More classes or active skill lines and a more in depth alternative advancement system. The repurpose concept they did with their dungeons instead of making new group content at the 2 year mark is not very hopeful for lingevity. Two year mark for the majority of AAA mmos would see far more content and expansion of game systems.

Many less with far less money in devolpment and far less revenue in game made far more progress on game longevity. It seems they are just focusing on the churn base player then the long term population. That's bad for a 10 year outlook or even 5 year. ESO will need a full blown expansion with level increase or expanded AA system. More group content and meat like IC had. A re thought itemization. They won't survive long term coughing out thin dlc's completely focused on solo play . Sure it will make for a nice sales qrtrly , but honestly the consumer will not get their money's worth. The game is making money of IP alone that cant last forever

cpuScientist · December 2016

Balamoor wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

People moved to solo play because ----other people----

THIS^^^

I'm lucky enough to have gathered enough like minded people to form a guild. We stick to our own or solo.

Problem solved

This is why Co op RPG's are all the rage now.

Love me the co-op. I mean I love Bethesda games like morrowind Oblivion Fallout New Vegas and the like. But i always feel in the back of my mind that geez this would be unstoppable awesome if it were only co-op. Then you play a game like borderlands 2 and while solo it's IMO an inferior game, add just one friend and BAM! HILARIOUS FUN!!! This is my 2 cents. But then you add 1000 people to said game and back to meh. Co-op is king IMO. But I've found a good guild of cool peeps and now it's whatevs.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

cpuScientist wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

People moved to solo play because ----other people----

THIS^^^

I'm lucky enough to have gathered enough like minded people to form a guild. We stick to our own or solo.

Problem solved

This is why Co op RPG's are all the rage now.

Love me the co-op. I mean I love Bethesda games like morrowind Oblivion Fallout New Vegas and the like. But i always feel in the back of my mind that geez this would be unstoppable awesome if it were only co-op. Then you play a game like borderlands 2 and while solo it's IMO an inferior game, add just one friend and BAM! HILARIOUS FUN!!! This is my 2 cents. But then you add 1000 people to said game and back to meh. Co-op is king IMO. But I've found a good guild of cool peeps and now it's whatevs.

Mmo community was much stronger and game populations were smaller in earlier MMOs. You knew people on your server and guilds were extremely tight. Bonds that lasted through games life cycles. Lol and when you had an enemy, or someone had a bad reputation the community took vare of it not the customer service.

DragonBound · December 2016

Flameheart wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Has anyone considered the possibility that an aging core MMORPG playerbase may have contributed to the rise in soloing? Many of us here cut our MMO teeth on games like EQ, AC, WoW, LOTRO, etc. I'm one of them: started playing WoW in 2006, and LOTRO in 2008. I was in my late teens/early 20s back then, with no real attachments to speak of. I had plenty of free time to raid, participate in guild/kin events, and do other group-focused things. Fast forward to today: I'm almost 30, I have a long-term boyfriend (who doesn't play ESO), and I'm in an incredibly demanding academic program that will lead to an even more demanding job. Sh*t, I don't have time to group up as much as I used to. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for other former raiders who now have babies and minor hockey games to attend, and so on.

Here's an interesting article on how gamer motivations have a tendency to favour less competition with age: http://quanticfoundry.com/2016/02/10/gamer-generation/ There'll always be outliers, of course, but it's possible that as we age, we just aren't that interested in raid achievements and leaderboards anymore. Or, rather, we may still be generally interested in those sorts of things, but can't/won't invest the time needed to get there, so we do other stuff in-game that we enjoy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, IMO. I know for me, as well, I have less tolerance for BS than I did when I was younger and still felt the need to fit in/prove myself. I'm comfortable in my own gaming skin now and don't care about speed runs or BiS gear anymore; I just want to escape from RL for a little while and have a bit of fun. I have no patience for punk *** kids bellowing at a normal dungeon group for not clearing said dungeon in less than five minutes. I'd rather solo than deal with that, honestly. Fortunately, I haven't come across too many punk *** kids during my time here.

You have my vote. I am 48 years old, an old hand when it comes to MMOs (EQ, EQ2, WoW, LotRO, SWTOR, LotRO again, ESO) and I still call myself a group player. I do my daylies, I go raiding 2-3 times a week, I collect achievements if possible, leaderboard ranks aren't my thing too, but my profession, my job and my RL predetermine the pace and not the game anymore.

The only thing I might see somewhat different as you is, that as a man who is working in teams and even leading positions I damned like it, if things are working as intended, which means I am rather short tempered if people start to *** up group playing because of personal incompetence and not being able to cooperate. I like my daylies fast and smooth.

but I am also able to be pretty pleased to not log into the game for a day or two, or just do some solo stuff like questing or fishing or collecting Eidetic Memory stuff.

Some people here moan, ESO is not "hardcore" enough, some think it's not group focused enough, some want even more solo and cosmetic stuff.

Sounds like ESO might have the perfect balance for MMO newcomers from Solo RPGs like the TES sequels and older players.
Imho Zenimax is melking the cow in perfect rythm, because from a business point of view Zenimax is absolutely right to not just care for "hardcore" players which like tough group centric content but for solo and roleplayers too (especially for ones which came over from the TES games and never played a MMO before).

I can live with that, because it makes sure, that the game stays healthy.

Usually mmorpgs try to cater more towards the casual side lately, but I agree this is what I have been saying for a long time is that mmorpgs need to do both and eso does a great job at that, however I wished group content was more challenging in the sense it required more group organization in the open world while leveling, but it is a small pet peve content does get more challenging in different areas, I miss the days when you could grind quests together as a group.

AuldWolf · December 2016

The problem is that another word for requiring is forcing. If you force group cooperation, you're putting yourself in direct competition with WoW, the primary source of forcing group cooperation. And even WoW has had to reduce the scale of forced group cooperation to stay profitable. The reason this is happening is because marketing has realised that the vast majority don't like forced gameplay, they prefer choosing to do something.

As an example, you can play Starbound solo, quite easily. However, it's nice to share the experience occasionally. You can play Torchlight II solo, but it's nice to share the experience occasionally. The same is true with MMOs. The less you actually force grouping, the more players are likely to use their social skills, which creates a more pleasant environment. There's a reason why ESO's zone chat is much less obnoxious than most MMOs out there, and that's because forced grouping is less of a factor and people rely more on social skills. The only reason you'd want forced grouping in particular is if you have almost nothing in the way of social skills but you feel lonely, the downside of this is that other people are then forced to group with deeply unpleasant people, often with sociopathic tendencies.

I remember this being a problem in many MMOs I used to play. There were controlling, manipulative people I'd go so far as to even dub Machiavellian and psychotic. They'd screw with the minds of the people in guilds to keep them subservient so that everyone could keep getting that sweet, sweet loot. I think a lot of people don't find that dynamic desirable, and wouldn't want to go back to it. By removing the forced factor, you're allowing people to play alongside people they enjoy. Personally, I don't want to be forced to play with a deeply unpleasant, manipulative, crazy person. I don't want that. I have my partner and a close friend that I tend to play games with and I don't really need anyone else, as an introvert. We all reciprocate one another's kindness and we think of one another as lovely people. That's what having close friends is like.

And this brings in another factor. Introverts are asocial. This is often mixed up with antisocial, but that's a misnomer. Psychopaths and sociopaths are antisocial. An asocial person is someone that's detached from social doings and doesn't want to engage in them. They're still a nice person, they just find being in a group draining, so they can't do that a lot. As such, an introvert may group one day, but then spend five more just playing alongside their partner. People in this thread have said as much. Forced grouping alienates every introvert out there, and forces them away from your game.

So, basically? Forced grouping is bad for everyone except for antisocial people. And it's bad for the developer especially because, like I said, it puts you in direct competition with WoW. Since you're trying to appeal to a demographic that's okay with being manipulated and dealing with crappy people. How well did that work out for Wildstar, do you think.

If anything, MMOs these days need less forced anything and everything, including grouping. The less forced elements an MMO has, the more ridiculously popular it becomes. This is a measurable dichotomy. The less forced elements an MMO has, the more popular it always becomes. Less forced PvP? More popular! Less forced grouping? More popular! Less forced grinding? More popular! Like I said, anything else puts you in competition with WoW, and thus less popularity because those people will just play WoW no matter what.

It's just not in anyone's interests, least of all ZOS's, to have any amount of forced grouping.

Footnote: I will also add to the chorus and say that the reason I play ESO is because I want a co-op Elder Scrolls experience. I want to share this experience with my partner, which I talked about above. I like sharing experiences on a personal level, as an introvert. I play ESO that way. And that's what most MMOs are profiting off of, these days.

SirAndy · December 2016

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

Reason why MMORPGs went from playing with others to solo

Because almost everyone hates almost everyone else?

AuldWolf · December 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

Because almost everyone hates almost everyone else?

I would posit that it's more that it's people hate being forced to be in the company of others, rather than simplifying it to everyone hating one another.

DragonBound · December 2016

AuldWolf wrote: »

The problem is that another word for requiring is forcing. If you force group cooperation, you're putting yourself in direct competition with WoW, the primary source of forcing group cooperation. And even WoW has had to reduce the scale of forced group cooperation to stay profitable. The reason this is happening is because marketing has realised that the vast majority don't like forced gameplay, they prefer choosing to do something.

As an example, you can play Starbound solo, quite easily. However, it's nice to share the experience occasionally. You can play Torchlight II solo, but it's nice to share the experience occasionally. The same is true with MMOs. The less you actually force grouping, the more players are likely to use their social skills, which creates a more pleasant environment. There's a reason why ESO's zone chat is much less obnoxious than most MMOs out there, and that's because forced grouping is less of a factor and people rely more on social skills. The only reason you'd want forced grouping in particular is if you have almost nothing in the way of social skills but you feel lonely, the downside of this is that other people are then forced to group with deeply unpleasant people, often with sociopathic tendencies.

I remember this being a problem in many MMOs I used to play. There were controlling, manipulative people I'd go so far as to even dub Machiavellian and psychotic. They'd screw with the minds of the people in guilds to keep them subservient so that everyone could keep getting that sweet, sweet loot. I think a lot of people don't find that dynamic desirable, and wouldn't want to go back to it. By removing the forced factor, you're allowing people to play alongside people they enjoy. Personally, I don't want to be forced to play with a deeply unpleasant, manipulative, crazy person. I don't want that. I have my partner and a close friend that I tend to play games with and I don't really need anyone else, as an introvert. We all reciprocate one another's kindness and we think of one another as lovely people. That's what having close friends is like.

And this brings in another factor. Introverts are asocial. This is often mixed up with antisocial, but that's a misnomer. Psychopaths and sociopaths are antisocial. An asocial person is someone that's detached from social doings and doesn't want to engage in them. They're still a nice person, they just find being in a group draining, so they can't do that a lot. As such, an introvert may group one day, but then spend five more just playing alongside their partner. People in this thread have said as much. Forced grouping alienates every introvert out there, and forces them away from your game.

So, basically? Forced grouping is bad for everyone except for antisocial people. And it's bad for the developer especially because, like I said, it puts you in direct competition with WoW. Since you're trying to appeal to a demographic that's okay with being manipulated and dealing with crappy people. How well did that work out for Wildstar, do you think.

If anything, MMOs these days need less forced anything and everything, including grouping. The less forced elements an MMO has, the more ridiculously popular it becomes. This is a measurable dichotomy. The less forced elements an MMO has, the more popular it always becomes. Less forced PvP? More popular! Less forced grouping? More popular! Less forced grinding? More popular! Like I said, anything else puts you in competition with WoW, and thus less popularity because those people will just play WoW no matter what.

It's just not in anyone's interests, least of all ZOS's, to have any amount of forced grouping.

Footnote: I will also add to the chorus and say that the reason I play ESO is because I want a co-op Elder Scrolls experience. I want to share this experience with my partner, which I talked about above. I like sharing experiences on a personal level, as an introvert. I play ESO that way. And that's what most MMOs are profiting off of, these days.

Your confusing forced grouping with deep group mechanics and encouraged grouping, while some of it was forced it was still optional as there where tons of classes that where very good at soloing but not as good in grouping, it was still optional that is like saying people are forced to raid which is by your point forced grouping when it is optional for doing endgame content.

This is an mmorpg maybe people should stick to single player rpgs if you do not like cncouraged grouping.

AshTal · December 2016

I think MMO's went to Solo rather than group because Solo is easier and more fun and I can log on and play, I remember early MMO's where in a 3 hour game session 2 hours was spent watching group spam as people tried to form groups, then waiting for the group to assemble and then play.

Even when in guilds unless it was a raid guild it was still tough to get X number of players with the right classes and skills to group easily.

Solo play I log on I play, I am called away I leave.

Flameheart · December 2016

SirAndy wrote: »

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

Reason why MMORPGs went from playing with others to solo

Because almost everyone hates almost everyone else?

Jean-Paul Sartre, Huis-clos (No Exit), "L'enfer, c'est les autres" (The hell is the other people).

BlackEar · December 2016

Hence why I will be playing Vanilla WOW. I want the MMO experience back !

Artemiisia · December 2016

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

One of the major reasons is that loot dropped, goes to everyone, fair share of loot.

What this means is, you no longer have to make connections with people to be sure everyone is fair and possibly give you the loot because you need it. With loot being separate for everyone it also takes away the interaction, and no interaction leads to no connection with others, and having no connections leads to playing solo.

What??? I love the fact its shared loot, I farm dungeons with people I know so we all get geared up and help each other, so I dont agree on that statement one bit, that goes for raids as well

and yeah if im doing a pug raid, and I need the gear that I got for an alt im not gonna pass it over to a random player I might not see again, on the other hand if im in a raid with people I know, then I dont care about my alts, and post my loot for people to take if needed.

TerraDewBerry · December 2016

I will occasionally group with others when I need (read HAVE TO do it no other choice), but would much rather play solo if given the choice. I do love seeing lots of other people in the game.. I just would rather do my own thing when I want to do it without needing to group with others to do it.

Majic · December 2016

The real complaint of this thread is that people do what they want to, not what we want them to.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Well there are games that have done it properly Doctor. you can find balance between the two. A lot of the games you are describing were poorly designed. SWTOR Raids are some of the easiest content to access they have a raid finder different tiers and most of it is easily done pugged in the raid finder. SWTOR content is very accessible which makes me think you have not played the game since launch. Its EEEEzzzzz and very friendly to the casual.

I don't think ive played a game were grouping was required to level even the old school ones . Duoing was fun and helped encourage making allies and friends.

Properly done is tiering the dungeons to help players build the skill for the upper echelon of group play. truthfully haveing 90% of the four mans you don't even need roles or abilities to complete is friggin ridiculous.

I dont understand what your talking about on SOTH dungeons. they were challenging but hardly completeable by only 10 % of the population. there were only maybe a boss or two that road blocked those dungeons. and once you had a good leader willing to gut out the dungeons with a group the mechanics were teachable. shoot ive run both dungeons near 50 times and maybe five of those runs were done from a pre made on team speak to try to get the skins. I would say it was more of a CP and new player skill problem. its was maybe a 70% 30% split ion completion. Ive taughT VWGT VICP and SOTH many times to first runners. the hardcore community just runs 4 dps through them Doctor so your statement they wont even do them i don't know where your getting that from. the issue now is most of the people that have the mechanics wired there dont want to do them because the rewards are crap compared to stuff you can craft. and the monster helms are useless compared to others.

As for wildstar and the other games you described champions those games died and went stagnant because they were poorly designed had major internal issues with their development teams.

No i dont think anyone wants the game to not have casual content. man this whole game is casual the only thing that is not is the V trials you can do every thing in this game by yourself , shoot the high CP skilled guys are friggin soloing SOTH dungeons!!.

We agree on some Stuff Doctor but for longevity. not having dungeons that tier up in skill and rewards , and making everything soloable has destroyed the community of this game it churns so fast in the player base you cant even make any relationships in game. Pumping out valueless pure single player DLC's and screwing the community with 60 dollar skins in repurposed DLC's is a sign fonzy just jumped a shark pit on water ski's

I did play Swtor. It was easy to get into and I did not play the raids, but I talked to -many people- while I was there and heard that debaucle. In case you dont understand what that was, that was when the Swtor devs invited the top raiding guild onto the PTS to tweak their raid exclusively, for that raid group. The result? When it went live it had to be immediately nerfed to even be in the league of most of the raid community.

(Forgive me, due to your spelling this is where I start to have trouble comprehending what your posting.)

The place I'm geting the 'they wont do them' from is multiple people, guildleads, top healers, top DPS of raid guilds who look at pledges for the day and simply dont want to do them. Flat out. Because their hard as balls and they wanna have fun that day and dont feel like giving their A game, they just wanna relax. Though, the fact you think Velindreth is useless, allready tells me you are not fit to talk on this topic.

Wildstar may have died due to massive internal issues but I guarentee, though this is specultion, that how little money they were making for a game tailor made to a hardcore audience that wasn't as big as they thought it would be, caused those internal issues. When people overextend, they run out of steam and have to justify to shareholders where all the money they promised them is.

The skilled guys are soloing shadows of the hist dungeons. Great. Now name more than 50 individuals who can successfully claim that. They are the exeption, not the rule, and no matter how much you want the reverse to be true, it will never be true. The anomoly is not the norm.

We agree on nothing. I dont want to make everything soloable, quit lying about what i believe and what I want. For clarification, I want:

-A system that either goes the way of guildwars 2 or traditional MMO roles with rigid classes. Either give us the true freedom to run a character we want to make, like plenty other games have, or give us extremely rigid classes and roles and let us take it or leave it.

-Difficulty tweaks. I would like three difficulty settings, one for beginners, one for most to run on a saturday night, and for those suicidle masochists who feel like hurting themselves.

-Progression based on content you want to do. Give the raiders better tools to do raids with as they do raids. Give the dungeoneers more tools to succeed where they wish. With as little emphasis on gear as possible. Loadout, and tactics, and mechanics, over gear.

-And finally, whether or not ZOS intends to go with system one, or system two, guildwars 2 or WoW class design, let healtanks be viable.

@Wifeaggro13 That is as clear as I can make it. Do not lie about my position again.

PS: "They were poorly designed" is a cop out arguement and unless you can point to a single aspect of design that didn't do what it was supposed to (And I can eviscerate this game from it's basic philosophy up) you dont get to make that arguement.