Pve players, why don't you like PvP?

bottleofsyrup · December 2016

I used to do both pretty evenly, but have spent maybe a few hours total PvPing since the last update. The load screens continue to get worse, CC-breaking and CC-immunity are both still broken, and the whole experience just feels incredibly stale now. I used to love IC but it's just so dead now. Even during prime time it's not uncommon for me to be totally alone. Maybe we need new gear and cosmetics to buy TV with, maybe they should let us pick between Cyro and IC when we queue, idk. It just seems like very little effort has been put into Cyrodiil the past 6 months, or even the past year.

SnubbS · December 2016

Dev wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

Actually @SnubbS it is true, sorry PVPers but your in the < 5% group. time to accept it and move on with life. This game has already lost more players because of how PVP impacts this game then it has playing in PVP.

Second, you're assuming that 95% of the pvp player base would be enough players to care about. When 100% of the PVP player base is only 3% of the entire game's player base, well to put it politely: Your expendable, so please take your PVP pollution and go.

As for why i dont want to PVP: PVP has no place in a MMORPG, there will never be balance when classes are involved. As well as the PVP community is just too toxic. With all the teabagging, ganking, cheating builds, crys for nerfs regardless of the fact that they just plain suck and fail to adapt. Cyrodil is like romper room at recess and it seems that all the children skipped their naps.

I simply do not understand how you can have such a delusional thought in your mind. You've actually gone full-head on and taken the 95/5 position. It's simply illogical and untrue.

Just so we're clear on this -- your position -- your actual position is that 95% of the players that I see in cyrodiil will be under the rank of Legionary. 95% -- not 80% -- 95%. [snip]

That's just not a fact man, I'm having a hard time believing that you even believe that. Just so we're clear -- this isn't 95 of ESOs player base, this is 95% of the players who are in PVP right now.

As far as the actual number of ESO players who play PvP regularly, I'm not sure what the percentages are.

Second, you're assuming that 95% of the pvp player base would be enough players to care about. When 100% of the PVP player base is only 3% of the entire game's player base, well to put it politely: Your expendable, so please take your PVP pollution and go.

This doesn't apply -- like not even a little bit.

I'm saying that it would take 95% of PvPs player base quitting for PvP to literally cease to exist -- and pointing out the fallacy that is the assumption that 95% of them are only playing it for the skills. You seem to be on the side that says they are playing it for the skills -- 95% of them in fact.

I highly doubt that 3% of the player base make up the entire number of players in Cyrodiil right now. That would literally be assuming that every 100 players you've spotted in zone chat wouldn't have an AvA rank next to their name. I refuse to believe that you even believe this -- I simply refuse.

Edit: I've actually just realized that your official position on this matter is that 97 out of every 100 players you see have no AvA rank -- and that only 5% of the 3% who do are above the rank of Legionary.

cheating builds

Just no.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Dev wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

Actually @SnubbS it is true, sorry PVPers but your in the < 5% group. time to accept it and move on with life. This game has already lost more players because of how PVP impacts this game then it has playing in PVP.

Second, you're assuming that 95% of the pvp player base would be enough players to care about. When 100% of the PVP player base is only 3% of the entire game's player base, well to put it politely: Your expendable, so please take your PVP pollution and go.

As for why i dont want to PVP: PVP has no place in a MMORPG, there will never be balance when classes are involved. As well as the PVP community is just too toxic. With all the teabagging, ganking, cheating builds, crys for nerfs regardless of the fact that they just plain suck and fail to adapt. Cyrodil is like romper room at recess and it seems that all the children skipped their naps.

I have a stat.

100% of your statistics are completely made up.

Here are some real stats: At 7pm each night on XBox there is a queue to get into Cyrodiil in Haderus and Scourge with each faction population locked. If, and this is a big if, the population cap is 200 each, that means there are minimum 1200 players playing on XBox NA PVP per night.

Lets extrapolate...

1200 on XBox NA
1200 on PS4 NA
I dunno ... 1200 combined on both Euro console servers? Sure sounds right.

That's 3600. Let's assume PC has similar numbers. So that's another 1800. This means at 7 PM Eastern about 5400 players are playing ESO PVP just on the most competitive servers. Even though I'm completely ignoring the sub 50 and buff servers which are probably a few thousand more. But rather than assume that I'll even lower my estimation to 5000 players total at 7pm eastern.

Now, with that we are not counting EVERY OTHER HOUR OF THE DAY!

Very few players play 24 hours, actually none do without rest for more than a day or two.

I think it's pretty safe to assume with these caveats that 10,000 or more people step foot in Cyrodiil every day. With your numbers you're saying that more than 300,000 people play ESO each day. Well, I hope that's true. Seems a bit aggressive however.

Regardless none of my numbers mean anything, and neither do yours. The only actual fact we have is that many campaigns are population locked ever day. That indicates that PVP is a very vital and strong part of ESO.

People like this honestly believe that there are 7 million players who play the game.

[edit for baiting]

Jaronking · December 2016

SnubbS wrote: »

Dev wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

Actually @SnubbS it is true, sorry PVPers but your in the < 5% group. time to accept it and move on with life. This game has already lost more players because of how PVP impacts this game then it has playing in PVP.

Second, you're assuming that 95% of the pvp player base would be enough players to care about. When 100% of the PVP player base is only 3% of the entire game's player base, well to put it politely: Your expendable, so please take your PVP pollution and go.

As for why i dont want to PVP: PVP has no place in a MMORPG, there will never be balance when classes are involved. As well as the PVP community is just too toxic. With all the teabagging, ganking, cheating builds, crys for nerfs regardless of the fact that they just plain suck and fail to adapt. Cyrodil is like romper room at recess and it seems that all the children skipped their naps.

I simply do not understand how you can have such a delusional thought in your mind. You've actually gone full-head on and taken the 95/5 position. It's simply illogical and untrue.

Just so we're clear on this -- your position -- your actual position is that 95% of the players that I see in cyrodiil will be under the rank of Legionary. 95% -- not 80% -- 95%. [snip]

That's just not a fact man, I'm having a hard time believing that you even believe that. Just so we're clear -- this isn't 95 of ESOs player base, this is 95% of the players who are in PVP right now.

As far as the actual number of ESO players who play PvP regularly, I'm not sure what the percentages are.

Second, you're assuming that 95% of the pvp player base would be enough players to care about. When 100% of the PVP player base is only 3% of the entire game's player base, well to put it politely: Your expendable, so please take your PVP pollution and go.

This doesn't apply -- like not even a little bit.

I'm saying that it would take 95% of PvPs player base quitting for PvP to literally cease to exist -- and pointing out the fallacy that is the assumption that 95% of them are only playing it for the skills. You seem to be on the side that says they are playing it for the skills -- 95% of them in fact.

I highly doubt that 3% of the player base make up the entire number of players in Cyrodiil right now. That would literally be assuming that every 100 players you've spotted in zone chat wouldn't have an AvA rank next to their name. I refuse to believe that you even believe this -- I simply refuse.

Edit: I've actually just realized that your official position on this matter is that 97 out of every 100 players you see have no AvA rank -- and that only 5% of the 3% who do are above the rank of Legionary.

cheating builds

Just no.

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Dev wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

Actually @SnubbS it is true, sorry PVPers but your in the < 5% group. time to accept it and move on with life. This game has already lost more players because of how PVP impacts this game then it has playing in PVP.

Second, you're assuming that 95% of the pvp player base would be enough players to care about. When 100% of the PVP player base is only 3% of the entire game's player base, well to put it politely: Your expendable, so please take your PVP pollution and go.

As for why i dont want to PVP: PVP has no place in a MMORPG, there will never be balance when classes are involved. As well as the PVP community is just too toxic. With all the teabagging, ganking, cheating builds, crys for nerfs regardless of the fact that they just plain suck and fail to adapt. Cyrodil is like romper room at recess and it seems that all the children skipped their naps.

I have a stat.

100% of your statistics are completely made up.

Here are some real stats: At 7pm each night on XBox there is a queue to get into Cyrodiil in Haderus and Scourge with each faction population locked. If, and this is a big if, the population cap is 200 each, that means there are minimum 1200 players playing on XBox NA PVP per night.

Lets extrapolate...

1200 on XBox NA
1200 on PS4 NA
I dunno ... 1200 combined on both Euro console servers? Sure sounds right.

That's 3600. Let's assume PC has similar numbers. So that's another 1800. This means at 7 PM Eastern about 5400 players are playing ESO PVP just on the most competitive servers. Even though I'm completely ignoring the sub 50 and buff servers which are probably a few thousand more. But rather than assume that I'll even lower my estimation to 5000 players total at 7pm eastern.

Now, with that we are not counting EVERY OTHER HOUR OF THE DAY!

Very few players play 24 hours, actually none do without rest for more than a day or two.

I think it's pretty safe to assume with these caveats that 10,000 or more people step foot in Cyrodiil every day. With your numbers you're saying that more than 300,000 people play ESO each day. Well, I hope that's true. Seems a bit aggressive however.

Regardless none of my numbers mean anything, and neither do yours. The only actual fact we have is that many campaigns are population locked ever day. That indicates that PVP is a very vital and strong part of ESO.

People like this honestly believe that there are 7 million players who play the game.

Yea it surprise me how many people believe that even with ZoS telling them its not really the case.

[minor edit for quote]

serenity_painted · December 2016

Well first of all i don't like PvP in MMO's/RPG's in general since i don't think it's not a good platform for competitive play unless they have some sort of match making system. You only ever get good fights with people on your own gear/AA level, I don't think it's fun to steamroll or get steamrolled.
There's just much better games that are designed for competition out there that i'd rather play when i want to compete.

Second i don't like PvP in this game in particular since I don't like mass pvp or sieges. Lots of waiting around and being a faceless cog in a machine, I prefer smaller scale. Also you have to ride around forever to get a fight at the risk of getting gibbed, the TTK in the game is nuts considering how far you have to travel most of the time.

Also the gap between dedicated pvp'ers who play the meta and avarage players is so large it isn't even funny. If you ever see a player kill 5 people by themselves in another game you're nothing short of impressed, it's rare(if it happens at all) and takes a lot of skill.
Here? It's a normal, and sure i bet they are decent but mostly they are carried by gear and build set ups that most of the player base are ignorant too simply cus we don't have the time or aren't as invested in the game.
A more experienced player killing a nub isn't anything off, but several? At the same time? And it happens constantly? That's *** up and makes it difficult to actually get into PvP at all if you're not really into PvP.

This is why Cyrodiil is a ghost town, new casual players giving it a go aren't gonna stick around. And for a mass pvp game, you kind of need the zerglings.

newtinmpls · December 2016

attackjet wrote: »

PvP players absolutely love balance. They love knowing that if they won, its because of skill and not an advantage.

This line caught my eye, because it does not reflect my experience as a PvE player who does some PvP, but is not too good at it, and just can't/won't be bothered to grind for gear (I'd rather poke my own eyes out with a spoon).

When I'm wandering IC with my lvl 22 Dunmer DK and I get followed and ganked by the same CP 561 person over and over and over (and change quests/try a different daily and basically get tracked down), then it's NOT about skill. It's about the PvP player having found an easy target and being as much of a bully as s/he can before I get irritated enough to leave IC or switch to another character.

STEVIL wrote: »

there are a great many games which are not about competing with other players. Co-operative gaming has been around longer than computer games have been of any stripe.

The point of any game is fun.

Different people just have different flavors of fun, none better than the others as long as consensual is a starting point, IMO.

playing vs npcs swinging the same swords is no more or less pointless than competing against real players with gold gear vs green gear - any more than enjoying rocky road is more or less worthwhile than enjoying mint chocolate chip.

And at the end of the day, I suspect this is really the point.

I don't like competing against other players, but I do like competing alongside them. I wish there were more points in quests and delves and group things where we could do complicated things together.

LadyNalcarya · December 2016

Well, I play pvp sometimes (mostly in nonvet), but in general its so laggy and imbalanced that it becomes kinda absurd.
Exploits of all kinds are rampant (and ZOS cant even punish CE users), proc oneshot meta isnt fun (and yeah, I tried that myself but didnt find cheesing the game like this enjoyable), plus various lag spikes and infinite loadscreens... It just doesnt feel like fighting for the most part, more like cheesy ap farming and farming pve mobs is enough for me.

Malamar1229 · December 2016

im not reading all the responses but I think its safe to assume a leading reason is because of the general attitude and composure of pvp players.

I mean, if you wipe on a trial boss, the boss doesn't tbag you and whisper "GG pleb, git gud scrub" or whatever e-nerd lingo is popular now.

If you want more people to PvP, stop acting like a bunch of kids

PS- I am an avid PvPer

Digerati · December 2016

Not being able to fully gear out in a upper-tier suit, in a reasonable amount of time, exclusively by PvPing or doing PvE-lite in Cyrodiil (or IC) has been a gripe for me since beta.

The story appeals to some people... Quests appeal to some people...

The whole PvE experience of ESO appeals to some people...

I get that!

ESO, for me, was always somewhat of a spiritual successor to DAoC for me...

ZOS, you gotta make a PvP cyrodiil and let us totally gear up with nothing but PvP.

Let us directly buy Bro-tier gear with AP.

f047ys3v3n · December 2016

Pve players, why don't you like PvP?

1) Lagfest
Yea, from day 1 in this game lag has shot to infinite in intense combat in cyr. Some of the best players even design builds around it. I find it really makes things impossible to enjoy. You can die and not even know for a full few seconds. You can kill some one and swing away for a few more precious seconds before their corps shows up 15m away from you. I don't know if it is better now or worse but it is often unplayable and often is.

2) That guild *****
Their back and wasn't it blessed when they weren't. They know all the glitches and exploits. They have run cheat engine from the start. They have a lag creating program that amounts to a DDoS attack that they have been using for more than a year now. On top of all that they are also very good players and would be hard to kill if they weren't doing all that stuff. With it, you better have 3x their numbers. Half the time I wander into cyr they are there because hey you have how many total campaigns? You can tell who you are about to fight because they switch the lag engine on just before, not during, combat. Honestly, if ZOS cares so little about their pvp experience to let a bunch of guys run every cheat in the book while doing what amounts to a DDoS attack on them why should I bother going in there. You know that guy who used to run the sorc build that was glitched out so that your executes did 1 damage and he was near unkillable. It was a glitched out armor set by the way for those of you who, like me, thought he had a hack before that was a thing. ****** actually sent him a personal e-mail to congratulate him on that build. This poop happens and you wonder why I don't do PvP. The inmates run that asylum.

3) Cheat engine
It is rampant in PvP and yea, I know it pollutes all the leaderboards in PvE as well. It is killing this game and ZOS seems to basically be more interested in pretending it does not exist and even scaling PvE content for it than making a better anti-cheat bot and banning the perps.

4) One shot macros
It does get a bit old when more than half your deaths come from what amounts to one shot combinations. There is probably really no way around it but it does get very very old nevertheless.

5) Rewards
You mentioned how all the good stuff comes from PvE. Basically, it does. Beyond that though you don't even get enough gold to pay for your pots in PvP. And AP is for both seige and goodies for myself. Why have you made that currency for more than pvp equipment? Now your incentivized to be stingy? I respond to incentives I think I'll keep my AP for my own gear and saleable items. As for the leaderboards, You can't really have much success in those with a job. Going for emp would be fun, if, like at game launch, it was still achievable in a reasonable amount of time.

6) Balance
Proc sets, stam > mag, etc.

7) Boring
Ride, ride, ride, ride, look, a fight! DC, try to relog.

8) CC's
Yea, I know, it's an MMO and fights in MMO's are about CC's. Here is a newsflash coming from a guy who came from FPS gaming. PvP is a lot more fun in FPS games where it is not about CC's.

Honestly, I go into PvP every once in a while to level rank on some a new toon to get the PvP skills or something and, with the exception of Imp city which has something to do between fights and is well divided to lessen lag, I mostly find myself alternately bored, raging at lag, or the latest exploit of you know who. PvP was fun for a little bit at launch with the endless herds of lemmings running over the countryside and huge, epic battles but since then it has been decidedly less so. I just avoid the whole mess I don't expect it to ever get better under this management. Huge strides have been made in PvE in general and I feel for at least 6 months not things have been on a good track. PvP is another story. It is much worse than 6 months ago and I really feel that any progress in PvP over the coarse of this game has been spotty and inconsistent and that it's management has never really been on the right track and probably never will be.

DPShiro · December 2016

I love how many pvp players say that pve content is too easy and they can do it in their sleep etc - yet they are mostly the people who whine and complain most about not being able to beat VMA etc. and wants content nerfed.

PVP has little to no strategy in a group. Joining a large group and spamming sap essence or steel tornado while running around the map is not skill.
By all means try taking that group in vMoL HM and see how it goes. Shouldn't be a problem since everything is too easy?

Phinix1 · December 2016

attackjet wrote: »

Pve players, why don't you like PvP?

I'd have to say, the P.

I know you run into rude people anywhere you go, and you just have to enjoy the times you spend with people worth your time.

But I have never experienced the sheer volume of downright psychotic stupidity in PVE that I have in PVP. Anything from people screaming incoherent thumb mashings to outright death threats.

Something about the personality type that thrives on constant affirmation through competition makes PVP just too wired for my taste. Yeah the guy who sits on his gambling mount waiting for people to ogle his ability to blow money in Vegas as if it were an accomplishment annoys me, but nothing like the insanity I have seen in PVP.

People just take things way too seriously, get way to angry and violent, and generally exhibit what I consider to be characteristics of our lower ape nature, or outright sociopathy.

I prefer content with some imagination, creativity, headiness. I'll leave PVP to the rambo crowd, or people with the patience to dig through 40 tons of mud to find a spec of gold.

Jaronking · December 2016

DPShiro wrote: »

I love how many pvp players say that pve content is too easy and they can do it in their sleep etc - yet they are mostly the people who whine and complain most about not being able to beat VMA etc. and wants content nerfed.

PVP has little to no strategy in a group. Joining a large group and spamming sap essence or steel tornado while running around the map is not skill.
By all means try taking that group in vMoL HM and see how it goes. Shouldn't be a problem since everything is too easy?

That's a bold face lie most of the people who complain about VMA are pvers I haven't seen any threads on here by PVPERS complaining about VMA.No PVPer has every complained about PVE because its so easy its stupid only people who complain about VMA or any PVE content are PVe carebears.

Like I said majority of PVE expect for Vet MOl ,VMA VEt AA and Vet Sanctum everything else you can pretty much do sleeping.

newtinmpls · December 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

People just take things way too seriously, get way to angry and violent, and generally exhibit what I consider to be characteristics of our lower ape nature,

Now that's just insulting to all apes.

Riejael · December 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

But I have never experienced the sheer volume of downright psychotic stupidity in PVE that I have in PVP. Anything from people screaming incoherent thumb mashings to outright death threats

You don't PUG do you?

I see this stuff on a daily basis in PUGs, someone will get miffy because something isn't going right. Hell I was in a group two days ago where everyone was doing fine, not perfect, but not dying. And someone was getting a little ragey because he had something to do soon and wanted us to hurry. I think I should have vote kicked him.

If you premade in PVE to avoid that behavior, why not premade in PVP too? Then in both playstyles you avoid bad players.

I think your problem is your treating Cyrodil like a normal dungeon. That you can queue solo and do fine in.. most times. But you wouldn't PUG a Trial or Vet Dungeon. Cyrodil has alot going on and takes the coordination of multiple raids to 'win'. But too often players go in there solo.

And expect everyone to know what they are supposed to do.

This isn't Fungal Grove or Wayrest Sewers. Where its a tank and spank or the mechanics have been repeated ad noseum to the point they are in muscle memory for all but the newest of players.

So why treat it as such? Why not treat it as a Trial you've never done before? Think of a Trial that just came out. The mechanics aren't known. The outcome isn't known. The bosses aren't known. You're the first to step into it. How do you approach that?

I'm almost willing to bet you won't step foot in PVE content like that either. Instead waiting for the guides and strats to come out first (assuming you're even doing Trials). Cause Cyrodil is alot like hard progression content, you just have no clue what will happen when and have to adjust on the fly. Not to mention have the people to be successful.

Solo PVP is called Dueling. That can be done outside Cyrodil.

ValkynSketha · December 2016

Because 1pew(light attack) => procc => dead.

ZiRM · December 2016

I'm too scared to get my poor lil character ganked and violated.

Hateanthem · December 2016

I've had a couple of bad experiences PvP'ing in the ESO community.

The latest one was when I killed a guy in one of the town's on my lowbie NB. The hate whispers started almost immediately.

"Duel me p&$$y", "You're a POS", just all sorts of nasty stuff. I should have put him in ignore but the last time I did that to someone in PvP I just had hate tells coming out of the wazoo by the person's friends.

I tell the person to chill and it's just a game. They reply with, "you're probably white too."

Okay, now I'm triggered, I'm not going to lie about that. I tell the person to get bent. For almost five minutes it's constant "nu&&a" and crap like that and they just won't leave me alone.

Finally tell the kid (I'm assuming they were a kid) I'm not his...that word...And the whining begins.

"You don't have to talk to me like that". "You're a racist" and then I'm ignored

Seriously this game has some awesome, good hearted people that play it but it also has quite a few ADHD ritilin infested jerk children.

At least with PvE I haven't experienced anything like that.

Mojmir · December 2016

Pve has fewer loading screens.

Riejael · December 2016

ZiRM wrote: »

I'm too scared to get my poor lil character ganked and violated.

Just be thankful necromancers aren't a class. I've violated many a dead group members in Everquest with Wake the Dead. Awesome ability.. tank goes down.. animate them as a pet.

Crap freaked out a few people to say the least.

In PVP it was worse.. imagine getting ganked and then your body is corpse camping you, itself.

SnubbS · December 2016

DPShiro wrote: »

I love how many pvp players say that pve content is too easy and they can do it in their sleep etc - yet they are mostly the people who whine and complain most about not being able to beat VMA etc. and wants content nerfed.

PVP has little to no strategy in a group. Joining a large group and spamming sap essence or steel tornado while running around the map is not skill.
By all means try taking that group in vMoL HM and see how it goes. Shouldn't be a problem since everything is too easy?

This just isn't the case as far as Xbox NA is concerned. Almost every decent PvP player I've seen (in the past month or two) either has the Maw skin, flawless, stormproof, or a VMA weapon in their hands -- or some combination of the four. Logically speaking, why would pure PVP players ask for PVE content like vMA or vMoL to be nerfed? They don't care about the content -- or maybe they're PVE players in disguise.

Joining a 20+ man group and smashing your head against another 20+ man group isn't very skillful -- and just comes down to whose got more destro ults & sunshields. However small 4-6 man group play can be extremely coordinated. I don't feel like anything in ESO requires true mechanical skill, that goes for both pve & pvp.

Couple points about PVE vs PVP: In PvP (At least with my small group) communication seems way more important than during raids. I've watched top raids on youtube -- there really doesn't seem to be as much communication -- but there also probably doesn't need to be as everyone seems to know what to expect.

It's a lot easier to tell who the best PVE guilds & players are compared to PVP. It's simple in PVE -- you see 'X' guild has the top score on vMoL -- okay, so they're probably the best at it right now. If ESO had battlegrounds -- 4v4s or something -- and way to track W/L that was group and/or guild specific -- it would be easy to tell who was actually good at PvP.

I honestly feel like if this system were in place, people such as yourself (maybe not you specifically) would have a greater respect for [/i]those 'Top' players. It would bring it inline with competitive raiding, and make it similarly easy to tell who was the best at any given time.

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Because 1pew(light attack) => procc => dead.

I wish it were that easy

I'd make 1vX montages where I'm oneshotting 20+ people per clip.

James-Wayne · December 2016

If you haven't played a Vet Trial with a great team you havnt experienced the best of ESO!

PvP isn't fun because of the Ganking and Zergs but it could be great like trials if ZoS worked on it more than they have in the past.

Zyrudin · December 2016

wazzz56 wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

There is one thing the PVP'er fears and so from time to time we see these kinds of posts.

They fear a PVP without a steady conveyor belt of low levels, role players and unaware or unprepared PVE'rs for them to feed on those easy AP's. They fear that Vigor, Warhorn and Barrier are made available by a possible Cyrodiil PVE campaign (just imagine the terror!), offering no reason for fresh meat to visit. They fear a stale community made up of the same known PVP veteran characters that already know all the meta and all the tricks, to the point where they don't really work anymore on anyone.

This is why it is hardcore PVP'ers who always try to pull and convince PVE'rs to PVP and rarely the other way around. That is why PVP'ers always try to tease and taunt PVE'rs to get them to Cyrodiil.

PVE'rs have all they need to play (casual overworld, dungeons, trials, etc), requiring only cooperation from other players for end game content. PVP'ers, on the other hand, need to "feed" on other players, because that is what PVP is set up to be right now.

In the beginning it was about the alliances, it was really about winning the campaign.
Now it is only about getting the kills to feed on AP's.

Have you guys watched that Baguette Report video, quite funny, that satirizes the constant fighting on the bridge between Alessia and Sejanus, while ignoring the rest of Cyrodiil? It is satire, but it does bring up the core of current PVP campaigns mentality. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNH6kVKeAfE

@Zyrudin

Your post is fairly off base.....from my perspective anyway. I ,and the people I PvP with would much rather have a long battle with skilled players than preying on weak PvEr's. YEs I want more people in Cyro, but not for easy kills, I want more people to get skilled so we can have more good fights. The issue I, and many others have, is the complaining about being forced to PvP for things like vigor etc compared to the grind that it takes for undaunted etc.....your post is extremely presumptive and makes some pretty gross generalizations..and I am not a soley PvP guy

@wazzz56

I am sorry that my post made you feel that way and I accept that I presumed and generalized.

Still, note that you already have the possibility to have long skilled PvP battles and you will have that possibility even more with battlegrounds, whenever they come.

However, it cannot be ignored that there are only currently two PvP campaigns with actual population. This means something. It means that new players come in, at level 10 they are invited to PvP, try it out, see where the fighting is and go there to help, get ganked a few times, have to ride all the way back to where they were going, run into another ganker or a train, do this a few more times until they leave and go back to playing PvE. If you add to this that probably a significant amount of those players came from the Elder Scrolls perspective rather than MMO, then you can see how that reduces even further the tolerance to what goes on in PvP.

Why is PvP so unappealing to a significant chunk of PvE players?

Well, roleplayers will say that there is no "role" to be "played" there in terms of story and lore significance. Moreover, it is unforgiving if they try to "play the way they want", so at least in PvE, if they stay away from vet group dungeons, they can not care about meta, BiS and whatever and just wear what they want and play out their fiction.

PvE'rs in general (yes, a generalization here, I admit) will prefer to develop skill with their mates in a more predictable and clean cut way, one that will reward you for cooperating against nobody.

And why did I mention these two groups of players above?
Because this is the Elder Scrolls crowd.

Nevertheless, I am not against PvP at all. Actually, I used to enjoy it quite a lot back in the beginning of the game.
What I tried to convey was that from time to time you see PvP'ers coming to the forum and taunting PvE'rs to join PvP or for open world PvP to be available. Why? Because they need fresh meat, even if you @wazzz56 do not.

If a PvE campaign of Cyrodiil ever comes out, it will not invade your world, it will not affect PvP's long and skilled battles that you enjoy - it will, however, reduce the amount of inexperienced players entering PvP to be AP farmed. If such a campaign ever is released, it will be truly interesting to see how the numbers shift from one choice to the other, but the choice will still be there.

However, if open world PvP would ever be implemented, that is, where players could attack each other at will anywhere on Tamriel, it would be intrusive, because you would remove choice from the game to a chunk of players and certainly drive them away.

Now, to address the "being forced to PvP for things like vigor etc compared to the grind that it takes for undaunted", that is to be blamed on two factors:

- PvP design: because the gear and skills you earn in PvE cross over to PvP
- Meta: because it narrows down options to only a few overfarmed sets.

So both sides (PVE'ers and PvP'ers complaints) are right from their perspective, when they say that they are "forced". It is the design of PvP in terms of skills and gear mixing with PvE and the pressure to fulfill meta builds that I think, personally, drives this.

In any case, I reiterate that I am not for or against PvP or PvP'ers, what I think is that these are two worlds that are incompatibly implemented currently, particularly for a Elder Scrolls game.

Destyran · December 2016

Go in pvp. Die once in small scale.
Viper
Redmountain
Some poison proc
Actual poisons.
Tremorscale snare for 8secs cool down of 6
Selene proctacular
Destro ulti

Rez.

Got to kite some kids from zerg. Kids dont do that no more whole zerg runs at you kills your frames and tbags you at 1fps

Vitality pots

Biro123 · December 2016

Hateanthem wrote: »

I've had a couple of bad experiences PvP'ing in the ESO community.

The latest one was when I killed a guy in one of the town's on my lowbie NB. The hate whispers started almost immediately.

"Duel me p&$$y", "You're a POS", just all sorts of nasty stuff. I should have put him in ignore but the last time I did that to someone in PvP I just had hate tells coming out of the wazoo by the person's friends.

I tell the person to chill and it's just a game. They reply with, "you're probably white too."

Okay, now I'm triggered, I'm not going to lie about that. I tell the person to get bent. For almost five minutes it's constant "nu&&a" and crap like that and they just won't leave me alone.

Finally tell the kid (I'm assuming they were a kid) I'm not his...that word...And the whining begins.

"You don't have to talk to me like that". "You're a racist" and then I'm ignored

Seriously this game has some awesome, good hearted people that play it but it also has quite a few ADHD ritilin infested jerk children.

At least with PvE I haven't experienced anything like that.

I've always assumed that those kind of people are PVE'ers out in cyrodil running quests/trying to unlock vigor - crying about somebody making it take them longer... Proper PVPers don't care about losing/dying - it happens to them multiple times a night no matter how good they are.
If they went on like that every time they got killed, they'd be spending all night raging/typing instead of playing.

Saw a few people complaining here about the PvP community - but in terms of generalising with PvP in other games... ?? I found the ESO community generally better than in any other MMO I've played - that's in both PVP and PVE. Please don't think that because you're ran into a bad PVP community in other games that its just the same here.

The other thing.. Time to kill too low? Proc sets etc.. All can be built around to survive longer. But PvP DOES have a steep learning curve for new players nowadays especially in terms of how to survive. Its not purely a problem with the game - it really is a learn to play issue (one that I had when I started). I'd always advise anyone stepping into PVP for the first time to build a tank for it - so they can survive long enough to learn how to play.
And the guy with the level 22 complaining about being ganked by a CP561..? If you don't like it, what are you doing in the level 50 full-CP campaign? And as others have said - I suspect he's not being vindictive - just looking for small-scale stuff and I'd be guessing you were the only opponent he could find. He probably thinks that because you were there, you were looking for the same thing..

Zyrudin · December 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

The only person broken here is you kid.Its obvious but no person on these forum have told you to kill yourself so your lying just to make others look bad and prove you point that pvpers are toxic.Telling you to got gud isn't being toxic its telling you as it is get better at the game.If your struggling with a part of the game and learn how to do for example last boss of VMa that's you learning and getting better at the game.I know what your real issue is your a self entitled child who parents never told you no and given participation trophy's all your life.

Jaronking wrote: »

That's a bold face lie most of the people who complain about VMA are pvers I haven't seen any threads on here by PVPERS complaining about VMA.No PVPer has every complained about PVE because its so easy its stupid only people who complain about VMA or any PVE content are PVe carebears.

Like I said majority of PVE expect for Vet MOl ,VMA VEt AA and Vet Sanctum everything else you can pretty much do sleeping.

I do not think PvP'rs are more toxic than PvE'rs at all (I have seen my share from both sides), but let me just show how much of a disservice you have done to the apparent image of a hardcore PvP'er with these quotes.

Zyrudin · December 2016

Riejael wrote: »

At the very basics, PVP oriented players like competition. But its more than that. They want competition with consequences. You see many of these PVE players that say they hate PVP, that say PVPers are 'toxic' are merely trying to pass judgement in order to avoid it themselves.

These players play in PVE because there is no consequence. They will take a gathering node or chest while you're busy in combat with a mob. They'll post damage numbers in a dungeon. They'll flaunt gear and achievements. But they avoid direct confrontations that would be the consequence of such actions.

To put it shortly, they would engage in PVP if they could without any form of retaliation. They do it all the time in PVE. They engage in Player Versus Player actions such as stealing nodes but they know there can be no consequence for doing so.

I agree completely with you there for a group of PvE'rs that we could label for argument's sake as "frustrated PvP'rs". There are a lot of toxic people on PvE too, for sure, and competitive no-consequence bullying too.

I also agree that there are others who would not be able to PvP because it is a warlike state of mind that messes them up.

However, do not limit your view to those two groups only.
Remember that a lot of PvE'rs you see here came from the Elder Scrolls games series, which is single player, character story focused and not competitive. These players came here for the lore, the ambience and the ability to play cooperatively instead of single player all the time. And this is just another group from others you can find in the game.

Man, there are people that do the same content over and over again and are having a fantastic time just crafting stuff and wearing it - I couldn't believe it myself, but it's true.
Now are you going to ask this kind of player to check out Cyrodiil? He will not probably survive a Public Dungeon, much less PvP.

Now, on the other hand, note that there is consequence in cooperative PvE. If you do not perform your role, you may let your mates down. This is consequence. Ok, granted, it is not about taking a keep that may or may not last the night, but it is consequence nevertheless.

I know that you were talking about consequence in relation to other players in a competitive fashion (such as stealing a node or chest), but that is the way you look upon things. Other people will not have that competitive outlook and in a cooperative sense, letting your group down is a consequence.

Tyrion87 · December 2016

The replies from PvPers in this thread are an answer to the OP's question.

I knew this thread is not going to end well...

The biggest war in ESO is not the Alliance War but the war between PvPers and PvEers.

pattyLtd · December 2016

I dislike the PvP vs PvE debate but i mostly only see it on these forums anyway.
I play both and there for feel like i don't belong to either of them (exaggerating ofc but it seems the thing to do in this thread).

zakfrickb14_ESO · December 2016

I don't like fighting other players in a level and min-macro based game. Too easily exploited.

Grileenor · December 2016

attackjet wrote: »

This is going to be good, I hope.

I honestly hate pve, and it has nothing to do with the content. OK, maybe a little bit of it has to do with the content. But there is still a lot of content I have yet to do. Completing veteran trials, doing the speed runs on dungeons (I cheated to get the hoarver pet, which I still think is stupid that they let something like that get into the game) I havnt beat maelstrom arena, and havnt beat the two dungeons that are from the most recent dlc.

But none of this content seems even remotely fun. The only reason I like to do Pve is to get cool stuff, I don't go after leaderboards, I don't care about showing off , I just like receiving stuff. Like weapons, costumes, pets and armor, while knowing I achieved something that took time and skill. That's the only reason I do pve. And it seems like alot of the pve content just dosnt offer anything I can't already get. Like the hoarver pet, or the skins from the new dungeons, or even stupid armor.

Why don't I have to do pve to attain these things?

Well, first off, that stupid glitch were you could just make all the enemy's level 10 and pretty much solo any veteran dungeon to get items. And that's why right after the dlc dropped, everyone had the new skins. I heard those dungeons were harder than imperial city prison and white gold tower, and now people with less than 300 cp can get beat these dungeon without dying and do the speed run? No. Maybe some, but not as many people as we see with those skins.

Second off, the armor. Why in the world would I step foot into white gold tower when I can just buy the helmet off the vendor? Leaves me with no choice, though i have completed the dungeon. But it just dosnt make sense. And I can see why people were so mad when they introduced this.

This is the most important. why is pve armor and weapons the best for PvP?

Take a second to take that in.

pve content offers the best and honestly the only good armor in this game.

What? Why would that ever be? Its like this, think about in halo, you have campaign and multiplayer (PvE and PvP). Now, what if you got an advantage from playing the campaign, like better weapons and what not. It would be stupid, right?

Wrong! At least In the eyes of most big mmorpgs.

PvP players absolutely love balance. They love knowing that if they won, its because of skill and not an advantage.

That's why games that make esports are extremely balanced!

But back to the point. Pve sucks for me, and many others. I've had people be extremely toxic experiences with pve players, and though I understand that pvp players can be just as bad, I always try to be nice. I understand if you are new to pvp, and I'm just trying to duel someone and learn my build a bit better.

But then I try to get people to play pvp, and teach them these meta builds, and then they can beat me. Wtf? Like seriously, I had some guy beat me on a templar I tough him how to use and told him exactly what build to use to get the upper advantage in pvp (black rose + viper). And guess what?

This guy didn't even know his to cc break. Tf?

Pvp is not balanced at all but I'm not going to get into that.

I've told you why I don't like pve, and my thoughts on the balance of pve and pvp, so what's your perspective?

Why don't a lot of pve players like pvp?

Is it the same reason most pvp players are getting sick of pvp? Or does it have to do with people being salty when they lose?

Please, leave your opinions below

Well, ESO has some of the best PvE Content ever made in any MMO. There are many many PvP games out there. Why would anyone choose the game with the best PvE only to talk about PvP. I can't believe, ESO has the best PvP around. So why anyone disliking PvE spends his time here and questions PvE is totally beyond me.