Riejael wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Interesting thread..

It seems there are a lot of misconceptions around from both sides here.. I don't get why people think the PVP community is toxic - I've never seen that apart from the odd hate whisper from the odd annoyed kid who just lost. I think its largely a mindset thing.. I've seen posts here effectively amounting to the view that getting ganked is bullying? Odd.. I adapted and built to handle most 1-player ganks - On the odd occasions that the gank worked and it wasn't down to me making a mistake - I've often sent the guy a messages complimenting him on the hit - then we've often chatted about how he did it etc..
There's nothing toxic there.. Bullying? If 2 boxers willingly step in the ring - is the winner now a bully?

There's no misconception. Its a bit darker than that. I've been online gaming for the better part of twenty years. In that time I've played just about every kind of game, both with PVP and PVE at least what you all would consider in those terms. Its taken a long while to understand what drives players to do both.

At the very basics, PVP oriented players like competition. But its more than that. They want competition with consequences. You see many of these PVE players that say they hate PVP, that say PVPers are 'toxic' are merely trying to pass judgement in order to avoid it themselves.

These players play in PVE because there is no consequence. They will take a gathering node or chest while you're busy in combat with a mob. They'll post damage numbers in a dungeon. They'll flaunt gear and achievements. But they avoid direct confrontations that would be the consequence of such actions.

To put it shortly, they would engage in PVP if they could without any form of retaliation. They do it all the time in PVE. They engage in Player Versus Player actions such as stealing nodes but they know there can be no consequence for doing so.

That's one group of them. The other is a bit more passive.

I'm going to quote someone from this thread. I am purposely leaving their name out because I do NOT want them associated with negativity. They explained the actual honest truth why they don't PVP:

I'm just not a PVP player - every time I do something PVP in MMORPGs I'll fall into a constant nervous/adrenaline rush/whatever it is called state.

Many players have this issue. They physically cannot PVP. The adrenaline, the anxiety, the person to person confrontation actually makes them physically ill. When fighting a mob out in the world, or even a boss in a dungeon with a group. The encounter isn't personal. There's no intelligence, there's no person judging you, thinking about you, there's no soul behind it, no sentience. It doesn't trigger anything.

But in PVP its the opposite. This player is attacking you. He has malicious intentions for you. He wants to beat you. That's the feeling and the perception. They can't help feeling that. We both know in reality a PVP player doesn't have malicious intent. Its just numbers, an obstacle (well for most of us anyway). But either way, these players get anxious facing a confrontation, its a person that is engaging them and their fight or flight goes off.

This happens to PVPers as well by the way. This is why some react badly under certain circumstances. This is where you get the instance of the '12 year old yelling at you'. Its not a 12 year old. Its probably a 32 year old. Maturity has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with fight or flight. That person engaged in an personal confrontation and they lost.

Its not personal to everyone. But it is to some.

But this is also why the PVP community is seen as toxic in these games. Despite there being a lack of evidence to support it. How can two players engage each other in a test of skill, wit, and will without being bullies, psychopaths or misanthropes? The same way we watch boxing, soccer, football, basketball, and other sports. Or even play those sports ourselves.



I can only speak for myself. But when I've PVP'd in the past, its never with the intention of ruining my opponents day. I simply have a goal in mind and they are either in the way or not. They are either an obstacle or not. I may use low down dirty tactics (but will never cheat/hack), and maybe even superior numbers if available. But I totally expect the opposition to do the same for me.

I thrive in competition and do well with confrontations. I don't take them personally. If someone manages to beat me, I learn from it and come back with a counter. It doesn't do me well to win continuously. I can't learn by winning. I can't feel engaged by dominating my opponents. So I need them to do all the low down dirty stuff right back so I can feel like I'm getting some sort of competition. There has to be stakes and there has to be consequences. To put it shortly, I'd rather barely lose an engagement than have a dominating victory.

Don't get me wrong. I will enjoy a hard fought victory. I will even enjoy a dominating one if its part of a bigger fight. See I'm not talking about merely taking one fort or resource node. I'm talking about an entire day to day fight. The pushes, the pulls, the drives forwards and the setbacks. I don't enjoy games like COD or BF much because the matches are.. short and contrived. You drop in and in 10-30 minutes you're done. There's a test of skill. But not a test of will or determination. Use of tactics but no strategy. Its also why I do not like Battlegrounds in other MMOs.

But that's getting off topic.

There's some weird elitism in PVE too.. seem plenty of messages - in zone or guild looking for people to run certain dungeons.. must be CP350+ etc.. I'm thinking.. I've solo'd that one, but aren't good enough to do it in a grp with you..?

Many don't realize that the questing, the story, and the overworld stuff despite taking some time to do, is NOT where you spend the majority of your time. They think that in this solo mode of play which has a lack of drama and elitism speaks for all of PVE. It doesn't. Its the part of the game both PVP and PVE players work through in about a day or two worth of playtime.

I've 6 days played on my recent character. 4 of which has been spent in group oriented content and yes PVE'ers get very elitist at times. You don't have to go far, look at the thread saying they will boot people under 30 for normals. Like seriously you need to be 30 to do Fungal Grove and the like? I've seen people solo that at 15.

Mostly groups are fine. My biggest issues are healers who don't pay attention or get complacent. That's usually fixed after a wipe normally. But I had an interesting run about a week ago that was ridiculous. It involved the first boss in Imperial City Prison where the harvester comes out.

What was happening is the tank would taunt the harvester and tank both the harvester and boss at the same time. Being in melee with the harvester subjects you to a nasty attack where they send 3 waves along the ground. Well the tank was being hit by all 3 being that close and getting one shot for 45k damage (15k x3). I suggested that the tank not taunt and the DPS just focus it ourselves with the agro on us so it fires the attack away from the tank.

Sound plan right? It was a tactic a group of friends of mine and I came up with when we ran this dungeon for the first time when we came back to the game. Worked in other PUG groups before as well. However the other DPS was just adamantly against the idea. Of course his response was DPS the harvester down faster. Sure.. if you had the damage to down it before it does the attack, you literally have 5-10 seconds to pull it off. But everyone in the group, myself and the DPS included was under 50. Like this guy was making personal attacks at me for making the suggestion.

Either way we finally got it (when the tank decided to let me have the harvest on the last attempt so I could direct the attack away, at least he was listening if not speaking). But there no reason for that person to be a jerk over a suggestion. And I'm pretty diplomatic and respectful in dungeons. I reserve my frustrations towards people (and you will get them in PUGs) to my TS server.

But this sort of thing happens quite often in PUGs where all four members aren't grouped It always seems there's that 'one guy'. So the idea that PVE'rs are not elitists or jerks from time to time compared to PVP.. is false. Very false. At least in PVP it will be like one or two in the whole campaign. Not one out of four.

I don't get the 'PVP is pointless cos there's no reward' view either.. Surely playing is its own reward? You don't have a game of pool with your mates at the pub because you know that you'll get to take home one of the balls if you win do you? You play simply for the fun of playing. I tend to think that PVE is the less fun part - because it needs all these incentives to get people to do it. That's like work that is - you only do it for the money - not cos you like it.

For me, PVP is endgame. I loved the single-player, levelling up storyline and didn't just skip it to get to 'endgame'. I enjoyed it. But I don't like repeating it. Same for dungeons - I don't like repeating them. And 'Dailies' in MMO's.. Whoever thought of them must have been some strange sadistic womble. I love movies, but there's only so many times you can re-watch the same one.. But PVP is like playing any team sport - some seem to see it as repetitive -but really, you never know how its going to play out - and you can play it in so many different ways too.

I had to bold a part that stood out. Its like players (and its both PVP and PVE) don't play games to have fun anymore. I used to play through Super Mario Bros. 3 alot when I was younger. Everyone's used the double warp whistle, but sometimes you just want to play the game to play it and will play through all 8 worlds. There was no special ending. Not 'gear' to grind. Just going from world to world because I wanted to play the game.

And then I hear this BS about how games have evolved to be incentive based. That's BS. I enjoy games like Space Engineers because there is no incentive, I just play for my own goals and achievements. I don't need a special colored text on a piece of gear to tell me I'm doing well.

You nailed it when you called PVP a team sport. You're absolutely right. That is the draw of PVP for many, you don't know how the next match up will play out. But I think the current generation doesn't quite understand that. I don't think they went to the local park and played basketball or some other team sport. I'm not talking about school leagues or other organized stuff. Just a group of peeps at the court playing a spontaneous game. Do people even do this anymore? Admittedly its been 25 years since I last saw it.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

A good post. I have only a few responses.

1. If I do in fact engage in PVP, I do want there to be consequences. I play Overwatch for a reason, however. I feel it provides a better, more balanced experience than this game in a competative context. Painting us as people who want to beat others while someone holds them in a full nelson is...idiotic.

2. PVPers can be proven toxic. Go to any thread asking for a PVE equivilent of Vigor. Go to any thread critisizing the design that forces PVE players to go into PVP to get powers -vital- to their build and visa versa. Go to any thread, where PVPers demand the game balance be changed exclusively for their benefit, and respond with personal attacks when you disagree. Yes, PVE players can be just as guilty for this, but if we're painting everyone their true colors, dont pour *** on my head and tell me it's colovian ale. Yes. PVP players are toxic and sometimes imperialistic, demanding the game bend over backwards to please -them-. And it's why many of us have grown tired of it.

3. On the other hand, the Pug story is a great example of toxicity in the PVE community. And it's an issue. I have my own theories on why that is, how to fix it, and most of it is core design of this game, but there you go.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Riejael wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Interesting thread..

It seems there are a lot of misconceptions around from both sides here.. I don't get why people think the PVP community is toxic - I've never seen that apart from the odd hate whisper from the odd annoyed kid who just lost. I think its largely a mindset thing.. I've seen posts here effectively amounting to the view that getting ganked is bullying? Odd.. I adapted and built to handle most 1-player ganks - On the odd occasions that the gank worked and it wasn't down to me making a mistake - I've often sent the guy a messages complimenting him on the hit - then we've often chatted about how he did it etc..
There's nothing toxic there.. Bullying? If 2 boxers willingly step in the ring - is the winner now a bully?

There's no misconception. Its a bit darker than that. I've been online gaming for the better part of twenty years. In that time I've played just about every kind of game, both with PVP and PVE at least what you all would consider in those terms. Its taken a long while to understand what drives players to do both.

At the very basics, PVP oriented players like competition. But its more than that. They want competition with consequences. You see many of these PVE players that say they hate PVP, that say PVPers are 'toxic' are merely trying to pass judgement in order to avoid it themselves.

These players play in PVE because there is no consequence. They will take a gathering node or chest while you're busy in combat with a mob. They'll post damage numbers in a dungeon. They'll flaunt gear and achievements. But they avoid direct confrontations that would be the consequence of such actions.

To put it shortly, they would engage in PVP if they could without any form of retaliation. They do it all the time in PVE. They engage in Player Versus Player actions such as stealing nodes but they know there can be no consequence for doing so.

That's one group of them. The other is a bit more passive.

I'm going to quote someone from this thread. I am purposely leaving their name out because I do NOT want them associated with negativity. They explained the actual honest truth why they don't PVP:

I'm just not a PVP player - every time I do something PVP in MMORPGs I'll fall into a constant nervous/adrenaline rush/whatever it is called state.

Many players have this issue. They physically cannot PVP. The adrenaline, the anxiety, the person to person confrontation actually makes them physically ill. When fighting a mob out in the world, or even a boss in a dungeon with a group. The encounter isn't personal. There's no intelligence, there's no person judging you, thinking about you, there's no soul behind it, no sentience. It doesn't trigger anything.

But in PVP its the opposite. This player is attacking you. He has malicious intentions for you. He wants to beat you. That's the feeling and the perception. They can't help feeling that. We both know in reality a PVP player doesn't have malicious intent. Its just numbers, an obstacle (well for most of us anyway). But either way, these players get anxious facing a confrontation, its a person that is engaging them and their fight or flight goes off.

This happens to PVPers as well by the way. This is why some react badly under certain circumstances. This is where you get the instance of the '12 year old yelling at you'. Its not a 12 year old. Its probably a 32 year old. Maturity has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with fight or flight. That person engaged in an personal confrontation and they lost.

Its not personal to everyone. But it is to some.

But this is also why the PVP community is seen as toxic in these games. Despite there being a lack of evidence to support it. How can two players engage each other in a test of skill, wit, and will without being bullies, psychopaths or misanthropes? The same way we watch boxing, soccer, football, basketball, and other sports. Or even play those sports ourselves.



I can only speak for myself. But when I've PVP'd in the past, its never with the intention of ruining my opponents day. I simply have a goal in mind and they are either in the way or not. They are either an obstacle or not. I may use low down dirty tactics (but will never cheat/hack), and maybe even superior numbers if available. But I totally expect the opposition to do the same for me.

I thrive in competition and do well with confrontations. I don't take them personally. If someone manages to beat me, I learn from it and come back with a counter. It doesn't do me well to win continuously. I can't learn by winning. I can't feel engaged by dominating my opponents. So I need them to do all the low down dirty stuff right back so I can feel like I'm getting some sort of competition. There has to be stakes and there has to be consequences. To put it shortly, I'd rather barely lose an engagement than have a dominating victory.

Don't get me wrong. I will enjoy a hard fought victory. I will even enjoy a dominating one if its part of a bigger fight. See I'm not talking about merely taking one fort or resource node. I'm talking about an entire day to day fight. The pushes, the pulls, the drives forwards and the setbacks. I don't enjoy games like COD or BF much because the matches are.. short and contrived. You drop in and in 10-30 minutes you're done. There's a test of skill. But not a test of will or determination. Use of tactics but no strategy. Its also why I do not like Battlegrounds in other MMOs.

But that's getting off topic.

There's some weird elitism in PVE too.. seem plenty of messages - in zone or guild looking for people to run certain dungeons.. must be CP350+ etc.. I'm thinking.. I've solo'd that one, but aren't good enough to do it in a grp with you..?

Many don't realize that the questing, the story, and the overworld stuff despite taking some time to do, is NOT where you spend the majority of your time. They think that in this solo mode of play which has a lack of drama and elitism speaks for all of PVE. It doesn't. Its the part of the game both PVP and PVE players work through in about a day or two worth of playtime.

I've 6 days played on my recent character. 4 of which has been spent in group oriented content and yes PVE'ers get very elitist at times. You don't have to go far, look at the thread saying they will boot people under 30 for normals. Like seriously you need to be 30 to do Fungal Grove and the like? I've seen people solo that at 15.

Mostly groups are fine. My biggest issues are healers who don't pay attention or get complacent. That's usually fixed after a wipe normally. But I had an interesting run about a week ago that was ridiculous. It involved the first boss in Imperial City Prison where the harvester comes out.

What was happening is the tank would taunt the harvester and tank both the harvester and boss at the same time. Being in melee with the harvester subjects you to a nasty attack where they send 3 waves along the ground. Well the tank was being hit by all 3 being that close and getting one shot for 45k damage (15k x3). I suggested that the tank not taunt and the DPS just focus it ourselves with the agro on us so it fires the attack away from the tank.

Sound plan right? It was a tactic a group of friends of mine and I came up with when we ran this dungeon for the first time when we came back to the game. Worked in other PUG groups before as well. However the other DPS was just adamantly against the idea. Of course his response was DPS the harvester down faster. Sure.. if you had the damage to down it before it does the attack, you literally have 5-10 seconds to pull it off. But everyone in the group, myself and the DPS included was under 50. Like this guy was making personal attacks at me for making the suggestion.

Either way we finally got it (when the tank decided to let me have the harvest on the last attempt so I could direct the attack away, at least he was listening if not speaking). But there no reason for that person to be a jerk over a suggestion. And I'm pretty diplomatic and respectful in dungeons. I reserve my frustrations towards people (and you will get them in PUGs) to my TS server.

But this sort of thing happens quite often in PUGs where all four members aren't grouped It always seems there's that 'one guy'. So the idea that PVE'rs are not elitists or jerks from time to time compared to PVP.. is false. Very false. At least in PVP it will be like one or two in the whole campaign. Not one out of four.

I don't get the 'PVP is pointless cos there's no reward' view either.. Surely playing is its own reward? You don't have a game of pool with your mates at the pub because you know that you'll get to take home one of the balls if you win do you? You play simply for the fun of playing. I tend to think that PVE is the less fun part - because it needs all these incentives to get people to do it. That's like work that is - you only do it for the money - not cos you like it.

For me, PVP is endgame. I loved the single-player, levelling up storyline and didn't just skip it to get to 'endgame'. I enjoyed it. But I don't like repeating it. Same for dungeons - I don't like repeating them. And 'Dailies' in MMO's.. Whoever thought of them must have been some strange sadistic womble. I love movies, but there's only so many times you can re-watch the same one.. But PVP is like playing any team sport - some seem to see it as repetitive -but really, you never know how its going to play out - and you can play it in so many different ways too.

I had to bold a part that stood out. Its like players (and its both PVP and PVE) don't play games to have fun anymore. I used to play through Super Mario Bros. 3 alot when I was younger. Everyone's used the double warp whistle, but sometimes you just want to play the game to play it and will play through all 8 worlds. There was no special ending. Not 'gear' to grind. Just going from world to world because I wanted to play the game.

And then I hear this BS about how games have evolved to be incentive based. That's BS. I enjoy games like Space Engineers because there is no incentive, I just play for my own goals and achievements. I don't need a special colored text on a piece of gear to tell me I'm doing well.

You nailed it when you called PVP a team sport. You're absolutely right. That is the draw of PVP for many, you don't know how the next match up will play out. But I think the current generation doesn't quite understand that. I don't think they went to the local park and played basketball or some other team sport. I'm not talking about school leagues or other organized stuff. Just a group of peeps at the court playing a spontaneous game. Do people even do this anymore? Admittedly its been 25 years since I last saw it.

A good post. I have only a few responses.

1. If I do in fact engage in PVP, I do want there to be consequences. I play Overwatch for a reason, however. I feel it provides a better, more balanced experience than this game in a competative context. Painting us as people who want to beat others while someone holds them in a full nelson is...idiotic.

2. PVPers can be proven toxic. Go to any thread asking for a PVE equivilent of Vigor. Go to any thread critisizing the design that forces PVE players to go into PVP to get powers -vital- to their build and visa versa. Go to any thread, where PVPers demand the game balance be changed exclusively for their benefit, and respond with personal attacks when you disagree. Yes, PVE players can be just as guilty for this, but if we're painting everyone their true colors, dont pour *** on my head and tell me it's colovian ale. Yes. PVP players are toxic and sometimes imperialistic, demanding the game bend over backwards to please -them-. And it's why many of us have grown tired of it.

3. On the other hand, the Pug story is a great example of toxicity in the PVE community. And it's an issue. I have my own theories on why that is, how to fix it, and most of it is core design of this game, but there you go.

TLDR: Everyone is toxic and both sides have their psycopaths. A good post, all around, but I just wanted to chime in on a few things.

1.I like overwatch as well and agree its better then ESO PVP 10 folds right now.

2.How is that toxic?Saying you should have to do the content to get the reward in no way toxic.Its like saying I shouldn't have to do VMA to get a sharpened inferno.Your argument makes no sense.That's not proven pvpers to be toxic it shows that they can use common sense.Also no pvpers have ever said their shouldn't be a PVE Equivalent to vigor just that vigor shouldn't be changed just so PVEr stop crying about doing the content.Am stop you right their vigor isn't vital to any build you can do every piece of content in this game without vigor and only Pve content vigor would help with is VMA,even then you don't even need vigor you can complete it with just using rally if a stam sorc not at All.So that's not pvpers being toxic that's them telling you the truth.PVP has to be balanced have balance changed so it would work.9/10 of the tiems if something is broken in PVP its broken in PVE as well but pvers will never say anything to get a edge on leaderboards or just to make content easier.The only toxic players I every see in these discussion are the majority pver players who call pvers toxic and should leave the game.

3.Its nothing that will fix the pug issue unless ZOS adds a way to limit who can join groups.For example only 50+ cp players and so on and so forth.

To briefly touch upon the issue.

If you require the player to get skills from one game mode to be successfull in another, you have failed as a game designer. Flat out, no excuses. Vigor is by far the only stamina heal worth a crap and by far it needs a PVE equivilent by now. To say nothing of warhorn. You should never have to do something completely unrelated, to get a skill vital to succeeding in something.

As for the toxicity, no. Being told to go kill myself or git gud for suggesting any sort of change in this design isn't PVP players telling me how it is. And I will never believe otherwise. If you cant figure out how that is toxic, you are...I dont know what to call you, broken comes to mind.

Dev wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

Actually @SnubbS it is true, sorry PVPers but your in the < 5% group. time to accept it and move on with life. This game has already lost more players because of how PVP impacts this game then it has playing in PVP.

Second, you're assuming that 95% of the pvp player base would be enough players to care about. When 100% of the PVP player base is only 3% of the entire game's player base, well to put it politely: Your expendable, so please take your PVP pollution and go.

As for why i dont want to PVP: PVP has no place in a MMORPG, there will never be balance when classes are involved. As well as the PVP community is just too toxic. With all the teabagging, ganking, cheating builds, crys for nerfs regardless of the fact that they just plain suck and fail to adapt. Cyrodil is like romper room at recess and it seems that all the children skipped their naps.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Riejael wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Interesting thread..

It seems there are a lot of misconceptions around from both sides here.. I don't get why people think the PVP community is toxic - I've never seen that apart from the odd hate whisper from the odd annoyed kid who just lost. I think its largely a mindset thing.. I've seen posts here effectively amounting to the view that getting ganked is bullying? Odd.. I adapted and built to handle most 1-player ganks - On the odd occasions that the gank worked and it wasn't down to me making a mistake - I've often sent the guy a messages complimenting him on the hit - then we've often chatted about how he did it etc..
There's nothing toxic there.. Bullying? If 2 boxers willingly step in the ring - is the winner now a bully?

There's no misconception. Its a bit darker than that. I've been online gaming for the better part of twenty years. In that time I've played just about every kind of game, both with PVP and PVE at least what you all would consider in those terms. Its taken a long while to understand what drives players to do both.

At the very basics, PVP oriented players like competition. But its more than that. They want competition with consequences. You see many of these PVE players that say they hate PVP, that say PVPers are 'toxic' are merely trying to pass judgement in order to avoid it themselves.

These players play in PVE because there is no consequence. They will take a gathering node or chest while you're busy in combat with a mob. They'll post damage numbers in a dungeon. They'll flaunt gear and achievements. But they avoid direct confrontations that would be the consequence of such actions.

To put it shortly, they would engage in PVP if they could without any form of retaliation. They do it all the time in PVE. They engage in Player Versus Player actions such as stealing nodes but they know there can be no consequence for doing so.

That's one group of them. The other is a bit more passive.

I'm going to quote someone from this thread. I am purposely leaving their name out because I do NOT want them associated with negativity. They explained the actual honest truth why they don't PVP:

I'm just not a PVP player - every time I do something PVP in MMORPGs I'll fall into a constant nervous/adrenaline rush/whatever it is called state.

Many players have this issue. They physically cannot PVP. The adrenaline, the anxiety, the person to person confrontation actually makes them physically ill. When fighting a mob out in the world, or even a boss in a dungeon with a group. The encounter isn't personal. There's no intelligence, there's no person judging you, thinking about you, there's no soul behind it, no sentience. It doesn't trigger anything.

But in PVP its the opposite. This player is attacking you. He has malicious intentions for you. He wants to beat you. That's the feeling and the perception. They can't help feeling that. We both know in reality a PVP player doesn't have malicious intent. Its just numbers, an obstacle (well for most of us anyway). But either way, these players get anxious facing a confrontation, its a person that is engaging them and their fight or flight goes off.

This happens to PVPers as well by the way. This is why some react badly under certain circumstances. This is where you get the instance of the '12 year old yelling at you'. Its not a 12 year old. Its probably a 32 year old. Maturity has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with fight or flight. That person engaged in an personal confrontation and they lost.

Its not personal to everyone. But it is to some.

But this is also why the PVP community is seen as toxic in these games. Despite there being a lack of evidence to support it. How can two players engage each other in a test of skill, wit, and will without being bullies, psychopaths or misanthropes? The same way we watch boxing, soccer, football, basketball, and other sports. Or even play those sports ourselves.



I can only speak for myself. But when I've PVP'd in the past, its never with the intention of ruining my opponents day. I simply have a goal in mind and they are either in the way or not. They are either an obstacle or not. I may use low down dirty tactics (but will never cheat/hack), and maybe even superior numbers if available. But I totally expect the opposition to do the same for me.

I thrive in competition and do well with confrontations. I don't take them personally. If someone manages to beat me, I learn from it and come back with a counter. It doesn't do me well to win continuously. I can't learn by winning. I can't feel engaged by dominating my opponents. So I need them to do all the low down dirty stuff right back so I can feel like I'm getting some sort of competition. There has to be stakes and there has to be consequences. To put it shortly, I'd rather barely lose an engagement than have a dominating victory.

Don't get me wrong. I will enjoy a hard fought victory. I will even enjoy a dominating one if its part of a bigger fight. See I'm not talking about merely taking one fort or resource node. I'm talking about an entire day to day fight. The pushes, the pulls, the drives forwards and the setbacks. I don't enjoy games like COD or BF much because the matches are.. short and contrived. You drop in and in 10-30 minutes you're done. There's a test of skill. But not a test of will or determination. Use of tactics but no strategy. Its also why I do not like Battlegrounds in other MMOs.

But that's getting off topic.

There's some weird elitism in PVE too.. seem plenty of messages - in zone or guild looking for people to run certain dungeons.. must be CP350+ etc.. I'm thinking.. I've solo'd that one, but aren't good enough to do it in a grp with you..?

Many don't realize that the questing, the story, and the overworld stuff despite taking some time to do, is NOT where you spend the majority of your time. They think that in this solo mode of play which has a lack of drama and elitism speaks for all of PVE. It doesn't. Its the part of the game both PVP and PVE players work through in about a day or two worth of playtime.

I've 6 days played on my recent character. 4 of which has been spent in group oriented content and yes PVE'ers get very elitist at times. You don't have to go far, look at the thread saying they will boot people under 30 for normals. Like seriously you need to be 30 to do Fungal Grove and the like? I've seen people solo that at 15.

Mostly groups are fine. My biggest issues are healers who don't pay attention or get complacent. That's usually fixed after a wipe normally. But I had an interesting run about a week ago that was ridiculous. It involved the first boss in Imperial City Prison where the harvester comes out.

What was happening is the tank would taunt the harvester and tank both the harvester and boss at the same time. Being in melee with the harvester subjects you to a nasty attack where they send 3 waves along the ground. Well the tank was being hit by all 3 being that close and getting one shot for 45k damage (15k x3). I suggested that the tank not taunt and the DPS just focus it ourselves with the agro on us so it fires the attack away from the tank.

Sound plan right? It was a tactic a group of friends of mine and I came up with when we ran this dungeon for the first time when we came back to the game. Worked in other PUG groups before as well. However the other DPS was just adamantly against the idea. Of course his response was DPS the harvester down faster. Sure.. if you had the damage to down it before it does the attack, you literally have 5-10 seconds to pull it off. But everyone in the group, myself and the DPS included was under 50. Like this guy was making personal attacks at me for making the suggestion.

Either way we finally got it (when the tank decided to let me have the harvest on the last attempt so I could direct the attack away, at least he was listening if not speaking). But there no reason for that person to be a jerk over a suggestion. And I'm pretty diplomatic and respectful in dungeons. I reserve my frustrations towards people (and you will get them in PUGs) to my TS server.

But this sort of thing happens quite often in PUGs where all four members aren't grouped It always seems there's that 'one guy'. So the idea that PVE'rs are not elitists or jerks from time to time compared to PVP.. is false. Very false. At least in PVP it will be like one or two in the whole campaign. Not one out of four.

I don't get the 'PVP is pointless cos there's no reward' view either.. Surely playing is its own reward? You don't have a game of pool with your mates at the pub because you know that you'll get to take home one of the balls if you win do you? You play simply for the fun of playing. I tend to think that PVE is the less fun part - because it needs all these incentives to get people to do it. That's like work that is - you only do it for the money - not cos you like it.

For me, PVP is endgame. I loved the single-player, levelling up storyline and didn't just skip it to get to 'endgame'. I enjoyed it. But I don't like repeating it. Same for dungeons - I don't like repeating them. And 'Dailies' in MMO's.. Whoever thought of them must have been some strange sadistic womble. I love movies, but there's only so many times you can re-watch the same one.. But PVP is like playing any team sport - some seem to see it as repetitive -but really, you never know how its going to play out - and you can play it in so many different ways too.

I had to bold a part that stood out. Its like players (and its both PVP and PVE) don't play games to have fun anymore. I used to play through Super Mario Bros. 3 alot when I was younger. Everyone's used the double warp whistle, but sometimes you just want to play the game to play it and will play through all 8 worlds. There was no special ending. Not 'gear' to grind. Just going from world to world because I wanted to play the game.

And then I hear this BS about how games have evolved to be incentive based. That's BS. I enjoy games like Space Engineers because there is no incentive, I just play for my own goals and achievements. I don't need a special colored text on a piece of gear to tell me I'm doing well.

You nailed it when you called PVP a team sport. You're absolutely right. That is the draw of PVP for many, you don't know how the next match up will play out. But I think the current generation doesn't quite understand that. I don't think they went to the local park and played basketball or some other team sport. I'm not talking about school leagues or other organized stuff. Just a group of peeps at the court playing a spontaneous game. Do people even do this anymore? Admittedly its been 25 years since I last saw it.

A good post. I have only a few responses.

1. If I do in fact engage in PVP, I do want there to be consequences. I play Overwatch for a reason, however. I feel it provides a better, more balanced experience than this game in a competative context. Painting us as people who want to beat others while someone holds them in a full nelson is...idiotic.

2. PVPers can be proven toxic. Go to any thread asking for a PVE equivilent of Vigor. Go to any thread critisizing the design that forces PVE players to go into PVP to get powers -vital- to their build and visa versa. Go to any thread, where PVPers demand the game balance be changed exclusively for their benefit, and respond with personal attacks when you disagree. Yes, PVE players can be just as guilty for this, but if we're painting everyone their true colors, dont pour *** on my head and tell me it's colovian ale. Yes. PVP players are toxic and sometimes imperialistic, demanding the game bend over backwards to please -them-. And it's why many of us have grown tired of it.

3. On the other hand, the Pug story is a great example of toxicity in the PVE community. And it's an issue. I have my own theories on why that is, how to fix it, and most of it is core design of this game, but there you go.

TLDR: Everyone is toxic and both sides have their psycopaths. A good post, all around, but I just wanted to chime in on a few things.

1.I like overwatch as well and agree its better then ESO PVP 10 folds right now.

2.How is that toxic?Saying you should have to do the content to get the reward in no way toxic.Its like saying I shouldn't have to do VMA to get a sharpened inferno.Your argument makes no sense.That's not proven pvpers to be toxic it shows that they can use common sense.Also no pvpers have ever said their shouldn't be a PVE Equivalent to vigor just that vigor shouldn't be changed just so PVEr stop crying about doing the content.Am stop you right their vigor isn't vital to any build you can do every piece of content in this game without vigor and only Pve content vigor would help with is VMA,even then you don't even need vigor you can complete it with just using rally if a stam sorc not at All.So that's not pvpers being toxic that's them telling you the truth.PVP has to be balanced have balance changed so it would work.9/10 of the tiems if something is broken in PVP its broken in PVE as well but pvers will never say anything to get a edge on leaderboards or just to make content easier.The only toxic players I every see in these discussion are the majority pver players who call pvers toxic and should leave the game.

3.Its nothing that will fix the pug issue unless ZOS adds a way to limit who can join groups.For example only 50+ cp players and so on and so forth.

To briefly touch upon the issue.

If you require the player to get skills from one game mode to be successfull in another, you have failed as a game designer. Flat out, no excuses. Vigor is by far the only stamina heal worth a crap and by far it needs a PVE equivilent by now. To say nothing of warhorn. You should never have to do something completely unrelated, to get a skill vital to succeeding in something.

As for the toxicity, no. Being told to go kill myself or git gud for suggesting any sort of change in this design isn't PVP players telling me how it is. And I will never believe otherwise. If you cant figure out how that is toxic, you are...I dont know what to call you, broken comes to mind.

You mean like how I have to PVE to unlock Undaunted abilities?

As for the quote, are you really using one insult to cast aspersions against thousands of people? I had a guy in a dungeon tell me to kill myself for not equipping shards. I don't think this means that everyone is bad.

Have you ever played any online game? This isn't a PVP or PVE issue. It's a people issue. Go play as a team in FIFA if you want to see some true awfulness. Your teammates will scream obscenities at you for dribbling one dribble to much while blaring music and ***. Which, by the way, is exactly what you'll hear in the Mournhold area chat. Davon's Watch, meanwhile, might be worse. There are lowlifes who spend their entire ESO lives at the Davon's Watch blacksmith trying to trick new players into buying Sardonyx for 1000 gold each.

I'm agaiinst the PVE to unlock daunted abilities too by the by.

And the Fifa example sounds like my life, to be honest. Which is sad.

dem0n1k wrote: »

I like them both! Sorry if that's not what the post is about but I'm going to reply anyway My bias leans slightly towards the PVP.

Some PVE content is challenging because the enemies have massive health pools, massive damage outputs & environmental mechanics... but they attack slowly & predictably. Even when there are multiple NPCs attacking, the pressure is low because they all attack so slowly & do not react defensively to your attacks. They will chase you if you kite but they won't do it intelligently. They can CC but again, they don't do it in such a way that it applies much pressure.

PVP on the other hand... every enemy is more or less the same health pool as you have, similar damage outputs & can only use the environment the same as you can... but they attack like you attack... as fast as they can! The pressure of the fights is usually high, with the enemy reacting to your movements & defences. Then there is the increased pressure of the possibility of greater enemy numbers, players in stealth, siege weapons, etc...

Jaronking wrote: »

The only person broken here is you kid.Its obvious but no person on these forum have told you to kill yourself so your lying just to make others look bad and prove you point that pvpers are toxic.Telling you to got gud isn't being toxic its telling you as it is get better at the game.If your struggling with a part of the game and learn how to do for example last boss of VMa that's you learning and getting better at the game.I know what your real issue is your a self entitled child who parents never told you no and given participation trophy's all your life.