Pve players, why don't you like PvP?

AnviOfVai · December 2016

I find PVE more boring than ever.... it might be because I never got into the Elder scrolls vibe, I played skyrim but that was only because I knew how many mods the game had, and I overloaded the game with them. I found the stories for PVE hard to keep an interest in, maybe because it dident feel very interactive? I'm not sure how to explain it because I love a good story in a game. Bioware create some fantastic games and I own/played most of them. With these I felt you were more interacted with the story than I did with Elder scrolls, Even though you could have multiple choice answers/questions in ESO It just felt...odd? the game mechanics did not suite me I guess!!

PVP is challenging, keeps me on my toes and has some fantastic features. It's not like your fighting an NPC your fighting another person who thinks with *strategy* (we hope) and this keeps me more intrigued than anything. Its also fun to just to group up with random people or your friends and work together in taking a castle.

Banana · December 2016

Performance when in or near a zerg is usually terrible.
My connection isnt very good so some people look like there teleporting everywhere.
Theres nothing in there I want. Other than vigor and caltrops that I already have.

Lysette · December 2016

The conflict I see is that PvP and PvE players have different expectations when it comes to what should decide about the outcome of a fight. In a role playing game it is normal, that attributes and traits of the character decide mainly about the outcome, while, like attackjet said, in PvP the skill of the player is what is desired as the source of the outcome. These are diametric concepts - the PvP side desires balance, where basically all characters are by principle the same and have similar abilities, whereas the PvE side desires variety, where all characters differ in significant ways so that actual role play can happen. One can argue about other things, which matter in this context, but these 2 general differences lead to conflict.

pattyLtd · December 2016

I love both equally after a while pve gets boring then i'll get back into pvp often for many months till that gets boring or right now it's just to annoying to deal with for me personally.

I'm not the most skilled person by far but i actually find pvp more relaxing but i don't get the feeling of playing with others in cyrodiil even though theres alot of people sometimes it still feels like being on your own. Not sure how to explain it better lol.

I want imperial city the way it used to be but i don't think that will ever happen.

Edit: The respawn system completely takes away the excitement i used to love in pvp when i could do it in Imperial City. It's just not fun to have to get on your mount for often several minutes just to get back into the action.

MattT1988 · December 2016

Zergs, ganking, over inflated and undeserved player egos and lag probably the main reasons for me.

j_s · December 2016

PvP is too repetitive. Once you've captured mines, farms, keeps, you notice that there is not much more to it. It lacks diversity.

DRXHarbinger · December 2016

Because horse simulator. Nothing worse then spending an hour crossing the map to get viper, Veli+tremored out of nowhere and repeat.

As for why do I have to pve to get the best pvp gear....really should you get the best from reparing walls? PvP crowd is too entitled.

Oh and lagouts. Much fun after a 1hr seige to get booted before the ap tick....all for nothing.

Sugaroverdose · December 2016

disintegr8 wrote: »

The main thing about PVE is that there is so much you can do: you can quest today, dungeon tomorrow, do writs the next day, etc.

It's only me or everything from this list is pointless and equals to do nothing if you playing at least 3 month?

Zyrudin · December 2016

There is one thing the PVP'er fears and so from time to time we see these kinds of posts.

They fear a PVP without a steady conveyor belt of low levels, role players and unaware or unprepared PVE'rs for them to feed on those easy AP's. They fear that Vigor, Warhorn and Barrier are made available by a possible Cyrodiil PVE campaign (just imagine the terror!), offering no reason for fresh meat to visit. They fear a stale community made up of the same known PVP veteran characters that already know all the meta and all the tricks, to the point where they don't really work anymore on anyone.

This is why it is hardcore PVP'ers who always try to pull and convince PVE'rs to PVP and rarely the other way around. That is why PVP'ers always try to tease and taunt PVE'rs to get them to Cyrodiil.

PVE'rs have all they need to play (casual overworld, dungeons, trials, etc), requiring only cooperation from other players for end game content. PVP'ers, on the other hand, need to "feed" on other players, because that is what PVP is set up to be right now.

In the beginning it was about the alliances, it was really about winning the campaign.
Now it is only about getting the kills to feed on AP's.

Have you guys watched that Baguette Report video, quite funny, that satirizes the constant fighting on the bridge between Alessia and Sejanus, while ignoring the rest of Cyrodiil? It is satire, but it does bring up the core of current PVP campaigns mentality. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNH6kVKeAfE

Woeler · December 2016

Nothing but crying in zone and whisper when people get killed. Piles of salt. Cyrodiil seems to be where all the "i *** your mom last night" kids go when they join eso.

DannyLV702 · December 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Nothing but crying in zone and whisper when people get killed. Piles of salt. Cyrodiil seems to be where all the "i *** your mom last night" kids go when they join eso.

I take it you've never been to mournhold? That's where I always make sure to leave area chat.

DannyLV702 · December 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Nothing but crying in zone and whisper when people get killed. Piles of salt. Cyrodiil seems to be where all the "i *** your mom last night" kids go when they join eso.

I take it you've never been to mournhold? That's where I always make sure to leave area chat.

Tyrion87 · December 2016

I don't like PvP because of two reasons:
- lag which makes the game unplayable sometimes (I don't know why but I also have huge fps drop when I join big groups in Cyrodiil);
- very toxic, rude and immature community in general - sorry to say this. I know it's all about player versus player but it's still a game after all and many people (kids) seem to forget about it. Rude whispers from people you killed or t-bagging by people who killed you...

On top of it, PvEers and PvPers have different expectations for the game and when one aspect of the game is changed by the devs to meet expectations of PvPers (like balance), the PvE aspect of the game is ruined. And vice versa.

RDMyers65b14_ESO · December 2016

I used to pvp quite a bit, but these days, not so much. Why?

There is absolutely no balance. I was in a group of eight people. We may have been 10 at one point, but we were less than 12. We ran into...a group of 60 players from another faction. Needless to say, we were wiped. So, knowing that faction was zerging, we went to try the other faction. Nope, they were 80+. This happens daily for weeks. Zone is toxic as the others place the blame for the loosing the campaign on your group. You get tells from the zerging factions laughing about how badly they won. Yeah, I guess it is easy with 5 times the numbers spamming one ability. I don't mind loosing if it is a fair fight. Fair fights do not happen on ESO. Add the rampant cheating/exploiting. ZOS doesn't care as they just tell the ones who were banned for cheating/exploiting to just make a new account. They put the bottom line of money ahead of the players. Needless to say that if a person just has to make a new character, they are going to cheat/exploit again as there is no real consequnses for their actions. Add to this the long loading screens, high ping, and lag.

Yeah, I am bitter about pvp. The only thing that I miss about pvp is running around with the guild. But, even then, the group has changed. It is not the same anymore.

Vipstaakki · December 2016

PvP is boring. You are just killing people over and over and over again..
PvE is fun because you have a ton of things to do like actual questing, crafting, exploring, hunting for lore..

Nermy · December 2016

Interesting post and lots of very interesting replies. It feels like it's really split down the middle with PvPers/PvEers in equal numbers.

When I started playing ESO, I was a PvEer through and through. Then a few mates and I entered Cyrodiil to do the landscape quests and I met up with a guy called Torsten Hartwig. Some of you may remember him. PvP was never the same again and I couldn't wait until I was v14 to join everyone in Cyrodiil.

I've done some of the dungeons and a few of the trials but not many, it gets too repetitive. I did a dungeon the other day and even though we were all on TS, no-one spoke, we just went through the actions. This doesn't happen in Cyrodiil, there's rarely a moment's silence on our TS and each fight is a new fight.

Sometimes you see old tactics and sometimes you'll get surprised with new tactics and it's coming up with ways to negate those tactics etc that makes Cyrodiil exciting. I can understand why some PvEers don't like to play in Cyrodiil but if you play with the right people, you might change your mind.

My advice to any new PvPer is to join a good TS group or join a good PvP guild. Somewhere you can discuss builds and skills to use. I have seen so many players who were PvEers become good PvPers through a little support and help. There's always somewhere to improve. Equally, go out with friends, have fun and try to stay away from the zergs.

Prof_Bawbag · December 2016

I used to dislike the idea of PvP until I needed to obtain vigour on my NB. I actually enjoyed it. So much so, I go back to PvP when I feel like a change of pace. Other than the lag, i've enjoyed it.

Hallothiel · December 2016

@Prof_Bawbag

This is how I feel about pvp now too.

Had been playing for over a year before dared venture into Cyrodiil. Had always been a pve gal, coming from solo rpgs, but now I just love pvp & I am finding I spend a lot of time doing that rather than pve.

Yes, it can be immensely frustrating, especially as I don't do dungeons (yet) & so dont have all the fab gear & finding out from the death recap that you've been killed by a suit of armour can be galling. But it has taught me much more about playing the game, switching quickly between weapons / skill lines & maintaining my resources.

I prefer defending & quite enjoy the times when you are about the only one on the walls, keeping the watch. And the satifaction of seeing off attackers. I play as a nb or mage healer, so battlefield heroics are not my style. Though I try & do my bit as back up.

Lack of communication & no-one having any real idea of tactics (or following some dubious plan to farm AP / make their friend emp / cross-faction machinations) is a bit annoying, but hey.

Am rambling now, but just trying to show does not have to be either / or. Ta.

Delta1038 · December 2016

Basically for me its because PvP is boring and tedious. I play Elder Scrolls for story and roleplaying, if I want to do PvP I will play Overwatch or Destiny. There are no PvP skills that interest me and a ton more things to do in PvE.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

Because I dont enjoy it. At least in this form.

I love me some competative gameplay when the game is geared for it. I do. I love overwatch, I love Heroes of the Storm, all that good stuff. This games PVP sucks for the soul reason, that it cannot be balanced unless PVE and PVP are seperate because each hold the other back, and they wont *** seperate them.

That's the reason. It is unbalanced by design and I dont want anything to do with it. I dont enjoy it.

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

And that scares those people. They need to keep controlling the balance and the game, and keep people in, because they dont know what to do when there isn't anyone to slaughter.

Jimbullbee85 · December 2016

I love both! But this is a diverse game and I understand why some players are full on PvP and others PvE. Just play the game the way you want. Every now and again both parties have to venture into the other for something and during those times it makes sense to have a pro (PvP or PvE) to help out. Things like, getting support and assault skills, getting fighters/mages guild up. Treat each others differences with respect because it will pay out later.

Liofa · December 2016

The salt . Most PvP players I have killed in duels , always comes up with an excuse . Here are some examples that made me quit PvP .

I was in PTS for One Tamriel , theorycrafting a stam DK no-proc build . I am killing normal testers without problem but there is this Grand Warlord Magicka Sorcerer . He killed me 3 times . I congratulate him , doing the /bow emote and stuff . Ask him what I do wrong . He is being nice and tells me my mistakes . 4th duel , I kill him . Really nice fight . Immadiately , he becomes the most annoying human being in the Earth and accuses me for using poison but I don't . He says I am lying and adds me on ignore list in PTS .

This one is really funny . My friend is grinding in Cracked Wood Cave . Me and my friend are protecting him against gankers . There is this guy , magblade , one-shotted my grinding friend . My other friend was AFK , I said whatever and attacked that magblade . I am in Tava's Favor , Blood Spawn and Dragon set . My old PvE tank setup . I used corrosive . He was still trying to kill me even with Corrosive active . Anyways , before my Corrosive runs out , I killed him . Classical , light attack + Ransack + bash combo . I was out of stamina when my Corrosive was out . I thought to myself ''useless ganker , only can gank lowbies'' . My friend who was AFK came back and saw the corpse and told me ''Do you know who this guy is ?'' I said ''random player I guess'' . He told me to look at the AP leaderboards . There is this guy I just killed , second place in AD with 3.5m AP . He starts to whisper me ''You are using FOTM Stam DK'' ''I would destroy you if I was with my stamina character'' ''Magicka builds are weak'' . Is this serious ? I don't even have any idea what is going on . The level of SALT was over 9000 .

Again , the same place . 10 minutes after I kill this guy , a Magicka Sorcerer pet build appears and kills my grinding friend . Me and my friend(stam NB) , both have 1h/s , killed this magicka Sorcerer several times . He whispered ''You are using Surprise Attack as a DK and your friend is using Volatile Armor as a NB . I am recording this fight and will report you cheaters'' . I tried to explain , he told me not to whisper him again and put me on ignore list .

And this was the last time I entered Cyrodiil other than getting Skyshards and after that point , whenever someone says they play PvP , I have an instant judgement that they are salty and annoying . I still theorycraft and test builds for PvP during PTS though . It is fun .

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

AuldWolf wrote: »

The opening poster is clearly a competitive person and thus doesn't find anything that doesn't involve competitive play fun. A lot of ESO's PvE doesn't involve competitive play. Yes, you can absolutely have competitive PvE, with leader boards, rankings, and so on. ESO doesn't do a whole lot of that (thankfully). I think it must be hard, too, for a competitive person to be able to empathise with the position of a person who isn't competitive -- hence this thread. Empathy of abstract concepts can be quite difficult, depending on the topic and the person.

This is why casual players end up labelled 'carebear' and 'casual' by PvPers and Skinner box grinders, as they can't comprehend the lack of a competitive drive, and the lack of addictions, respectively. I think casual people can (and regularly do) empathise with their desires, even if they're a much smaller group of people. Usually the hostility toward casual players tends to leave us feeling cold, though. It's difficult to be hospitable to people who hate you, you know? And that's really commonplace for toxicity to take hold amongst both grinders and PvPers. And it just drives the wedges deeper.

Why don't I PvP? I'm not competitive. Simple as. And even if I were, I don't think I'd be able to stomach the toxicity that's part and parcel of PvP. It's just not the kind of scene for me. I'd rather be roleplaying and cooperating, handing out rounds of Betnikh Twice-Spiked Ale (on the house!) rather than engage in any of that noise. So to speak.

Toxicity and hostility aren't fun for me. That's the primary reason why I don't do PvP or grinding. And these addictions don't work on me, either, which is another reason why I'm not interested in grinding in particular. It's just a matter of different personalities. Some get addicted to everything, really easily, and they can throw every living moment into something. I can't do that unless it's really important to me, and I do it on my own terms. Same as how some people can revel and thrive in noxious, terrible environments that just aren't suited for anyone else.

Like I said, though. I imagine even the very notion of 'not competitive' will be almost impossible to comprehend and empathise with. That's how it's been with every PvP group I've interacted with (most recently the duellers).

This.

The people who cannot comprehend anything other than a competative mindset are usually the most toxic, and are usually the ones ragging on PVE players. This goes for both circles, not just PVP.

And their just as toxic over here. The only bad thing is the design team seems to be prioritizing them over everyone else for the past year. Hopefully that changes in the coming one.

SnubbS · December 2016

I've always felt like PvP was the end game. I PvE to get the Weapons/Gear required for PvP -- and that's pretty much it. I can't really see a point to PvE -- but I can't see the point to PvP either unless you outright enjoy the act. There's nothing Balanced or competitive about ESO PvP -- but I'm a naturally competitive person so I'd drift towards competing against other players rather than against NPCs, even if some of those NPCs were quite challenging (Vet Trials).

For me personally, I have more respect for a Pro Overwatch team than I do for a World Class RE4 speedrunner -- although both require a sizable amount of talent.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

Fvh09NL · December 2016

I play both equally and love both equally but after reading these posts I have the feeling I must ask/say something. I read a lot of PvE'ers saying the PvP community is toxic and are harsh to new/inexperienced players. And maybe it is just me but I find the PvE community (at least in-game) a lot more toxic and/or harsh to new/inexperienced players, where they kick out low CP players before they can prove themselves or bash on players who do not use specific weapons and skills. In PvP I barely encouter toxic players (maybe it is because every soldier makes the army stronger but still), maybe only when you kill them over and over again

I'm around 700cp and I will always let newer players prove themselves in PvE and I'm always happy to have them around in PvP.

Both are just great, although PvP needs the high chance proc sets removed. And I encourage everyone to do both as that's the only way you experience all the fun of this game

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

SnubbS wrote: »

I've always felt like PvP was the end game. I PvE to get the Weapons/Gear required for PvP -- and that's pretty much it. I can't really see a point to PvE -- but I can't see the point to PvP either unless you outright enjoy the act. There's nothing Balanced or competitive about ESO PvP -- but I'm a naturally competitive person so I'd drift towards competing against other players rather than against NPCs, even if some of those NPCs were quite challenging (Vet Trials).

For me personally, I have more respect for a Pro Overwatch team than I do for a World Class RE4 speedrunner -- although both require a sizable amount of talent.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

It's not. Trust me, it''s not a delusional thought. We make up a sizeable portion of the PVP audience, and when we leave, you'll feel it.

BomblePants · December 2016

I think if you have to go to PVP land alone it's quite daunting. You don't really know why you are doing and you spend twenty mins riding backwards and forwards for a while...... plus I think people worry they'll get humiliated (it can't just be me)!?

SnubbS · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

I've always felt like PvP was the end game. I PvE to get the Weapons/Gear required for PvP -- and that's pretty much it. I can't really see a point to PvE -- but I can't see the point to PvP either unless you outright enjoy the act. There's nothing Balanced or competitive about ESO PvP -- but I'm a naturally competitive person so I'd drift towards competing against other players rather than against NPCs, even if some of those NPCs were quite challenging (Vet Trials).

For me personally, I have more respect for a Pro Overwatch team than I do for a World Class RE4 speedrunner -- although both require a sizable amount of talent.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

It's not. Trust me, it''s not a delusional thought. We make up a sizeable portion of the PVP audience, and when we leave, you'll feel it.

Keyword is "Sizable" -- 15% is sizable. You're talking about a percentage that would literally make PvP cease to exist -- 90-95% -- because that's what it would take. You're not even half the population -- it's quite shocking that you have such an outright deluded view.

The overwhelming majority of players that you encounter in Cyrodiil have a complete and total aversion to PvP and are only there for the skills useful to them in PVE -- so basically until they reach Legionary, and often times before then. These players are not "Casual" PvP players -- they simply despise it. The overwhelming majority of players that you encounter are not Hardcore PvPers, Casual PvPers, or PVE players just having some fun -- not at all, the overwhelming majority that you encounter are doing it purely for skills, and otherwise hate it completely and will never return once they unlock their desired skills.

That's your position spelled out -- the vast majority of players do not have that strong of an aversion to literally anything in the game, they're casuals, they don't care. You must live inside such an anti-pvp echo chamber if you truly believe that 9 out of every 10 people you see in PvP are only there for the skills.

me_ming · December 2016

attackjet wrote: »

This is going to be good, I hope.

I honestly hate pve, and it has nothing to do with the content. OK, maybe a little bit of it has to do with the content. But there is still a lot of content I have yet to do. Completing veteran trials, doing the speed runs on dungeons (I cheated to get the hoarver pet, which I still think is stupid that they let something like that get into the game) I havnt beat maelstrom arena, and havnt beat the two dungeons that are from the most recent dlc.

But none of this content seems even remotely fun. The only reason I like to do Pve is to get cool stuff, I don't go after leaderboards, I don't care about showing off , I just like receiving stuff. Like weapons, costumes, pets and armor, while knowing I achieved something that took time and skill. That's the only reason I do pve. And it seems like alot of the pve content just dosnt offer anything I can't already get. Like the hoarver pet, or the skins from the new dungeons, or even stupid armor.

Why don't I have to do pve to attain these things?

Well, first off, that stupid glitch were you could just make all the enemy's level 10 and pretty much solo any veteran dungeon to get items. And that's why right after the dlc dropped, everyone had the new skins. I heard those dungeons were harder than imperial city prison and white gold tower, and now people with less than 300 cp can get beat these dungeon without dying and do the speed run? No. Maybe some, but not as many people as we see with those skins.

Second off, the armor. Why in the world would I step foot into white gold tower when I can just buy the helmet off the vendor? Leaves me with no choice, though i have completed the dungeon. But it just dosnt make sense. And I can see why people were so mad when they introduced this.

This is the most important. why is pve armor and weapons the best for PvP?

Take a second to take that in.

pve content offers the best and honestly the only good armor in this game.

What? Why would that ever be? Its like this, think about in halo, you have campaign and multiplayer (PvE and PvP). Now, what if you got an advantage from playing the campaign, like better weapons and what not. It would be stupid, right?

Wrong! At least In the eyes of most big mmorpgs.

PvP players absolutely love balance. They love knowing that if they won, its because of skill and not an advantage.

That's why games that make esports are extremely balanced!

But back to the point. Pve sucks for me, and many others. I've had people be extremely toxic experiences with pve players, and though I understand that pvp players can be just as bad, I always try to be nice. I understand if you are new to pvp, and I'm just trying to duel someone and learn my build a bit better.

But then I try to get people to play pvp, and teach them these meta builds, and then they can beat me. Wtf? Like seriously, I had some guy beat me on a templar I tough him how to use and told him exactly what build to use to get the upper advantage in pvp (black rose + viper). And guess what?

This guy didn't even know his to cc break. Tf?

Pvp is not balanced at all but I'm not going to get into that.

I've told you why I don't like pve, and my thoughts on the balance of pve and pvp, so what's your perspective?

Why don't a lot of pve players like pvp?

Is it the same reason most pvp players are getting sick of pvp? Or does it have to do with people being salty when they lose?

Please, leave your opinions below

I play both PvE and PvP. I love them both. The reason why I sometimes play more PvE is when it becomes too laggy it's literally unplayable to me. But when it's not, I stay in Cyrodiil for weeks. I just don't like IC PvP as much, for some reason.

I think part of the reason why some PvE players don't PvP, is because they just don't want to engage in PvP. That's just not something they enjoy doing. Just like how some PvP players (like yourself) don't like PvE.

As to being salty, most people are salty when they die in PvP or PvE. In PvE you die in a dungeon: 1.) Healer not healing, 2.) Tank doesn't taunt and 3.) DPS to low. In PvP you die: NERF skill/set too OP. I think people have this mentality that if they die it's because the game is unfair. Or something is too OP. While this is true in some (arguably most) cases, we all have to remember that we all die at some point in this game. And that the best thing we can do is to improve.

Nermy · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

SnubbS wrote: »

I've always felt like PvP was the end game. I PvE to get the Weapons/Gear required for PvP -- and that's pretty much it. I can't really see a point to PvE -- but I can't see the point to PvP either unless you outright enjoy the act. There's nothing Balanced or competitive about ESO PvP -- but I'm a naturally competitive person so I'd drift towards competing against other players rather than against NPCs, even if some of those NPCs were quite challenging (Vet Trials).

For me personally, I have more respect for a Pro Overwatch team than I do for a World Class RE4 speedrunner -- although both require a sizable amount of talent.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Edit: PVP needs us. We dont need it. The second Warhorn, Vigor, caltrops become PVE acheiveable, or outdated...PVP outright stops.

That just isn't true. You're assuming that the vast majority of players are in PvP for those skills -- not 30%, not 60% -- but the overwhelming majority. For PvP to outright cease to exist you'd need to eliminate 90-95% of the PvP player base. To assume that 90 -- or even 50% of the players that you see in PvP are only there for the skills is an absolutely delusional thought.

It's not. Trust me, it''s not a delusional thought. We make up a sizeable portion of the PVP audience, and when we leave, you'll feel it.

Maybe not delusional but I'd like to see what statistics/findings you base your comments on because I honestly doubt that there is that much truth in what you are saying.