Reason why MMORPGs went from playing with others to solo

EvilCroc · December 2016

And then we have One Tamriel with new world bosses. Only thing I really hate in OT.
They are pointless in any aspect, except mindless forced grouping.

DragonBound · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Your not actually reading what I am typing and assuming I never said anything about going hardcore, I am simply talking about going way more casual and yes they do in fact swtor stripped rpg elements more and more going more casual and you listed literally one western mmorpg. The main reason swtor went free to play was to make more money and people are scared of subs which is the main reason why it went downhill, it had nothing to do with the original design. Wow was easy and very shallow in general except in raiding. Even then there was not much depth.

Lol champions online never did well and skipped out on allot of content over the years it took them ages to release new content what are you even talking about? Wildstar relied on a more hardcore crowd only for raiding, and it was sub based not a good example.

Your under the misconception that casual is not the death when it in fact is, I have been playing mmorpgs for ages and watched this happen over and over again no matter what you say it will never change what I saw. You have no idea what I think, what I am telling you is that no mmorpg should go to the extreme side of casual or hardcore.

DragonBound · December 2016

Riejael wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.

Newp. MMORPG community was degrading by 2003-2004 in Everquest. That Gates of Discord and Omens of War expansions were the HARDEST in EQ's history. I actually decided to jump ship to WoW when it released later that year because of a better community.

Used to see groups break up in Bastion of Thunder (PoP expansion in EQ) because a Glyphed Rune Word dropped and everyone argued who should get it.

Seen raid groups kill still or break 'agreements' to get an edge another during raid encounters (they were no instanced).

Saw an increase in 'training' (dragging mobs over groups) to cause wipes to take over popular farming spots.

Elitism and Jealousy were increasing. One time I was in a group with a level 63 rogue with a group of 65s. Due to the limits of the UI, they had no idea I was 2 levels lower. The parsers (damage meters basically, a 3rd party program that would in realtime analyze the combat log .txt file) showed my DPS as quite good, highest in the group. Someone /con (the consider command, used to judge the strength of a PC or NPC in relation to your own). They saw my character as blue to them which meant under their level. Even though the group was not advertised as 65+ group, and even though I had the DPS (and the mobs were blue and white to me, named were red, but barely). They still removed me. This wouldn't have been a bad thing. But in EQ back then you couldn't teleport as a rogue, the area we were in relied on a wizard/druid to get to safely. So I had an interesting time getting back to a town. Dying back then meant your gear was left on a corpse that would rot in a few days. Not a fun time.

All these things blamed on casual friendly WoW. Yet were happening before WoW. And didn't really happen in WoW until quite a bit into its future. In my personal experience, not until Burning Crusade, its first expansion. 3-4 years after the D-baggery was happening in EQ.

Ok but that does not mean wow did not captilize on the casual mmorpg market, I played eq1 before you and after so you may want to rethink your point, eq was far from casual the things they added was much needed because it was way to time consuming it was still far from casual.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Your not actually reading what I am typing and assuming I never said anything about going hardcore, I am simply talking about going way more casual and yes they do in fact swtor stripped rpg elements more and more going more casual and you listed literally one western mmorpg. Wow was easy and very shallow in general except in raiding. Even then there was not much depth.

Lol champions online never did well and skipped out on allot of content over the years it took them ages to release new content what are you even talking about? Wildstar relied on a more hardcore crowd only for raiding, and it was sub based not a good example.

Your under the misconception that casual is not the death when it in fact is, I have been playing mmorpgs for ages and watched this happen over and over again no matter what you say it will never change what I saw. You have no idea what I think, what I am telling you is that no mmorpg should go to the extreme side of casual or hardcore.

I did in fact read what you posted and posted counterarguements to your points. And you apparently didn''t read mine. I stated exactly what happened when Champions online released new content and why it failed. Wildstar was a game advertised as hardcore all the way. It drove off potential buisness -because- of that.

If you are decrying casual design, then it is only logcial to assume you are validating hardcore design. I cant read your mind, if you tell me not to assume then present solutions to the problems instead of just telling me I guessed wrong.

I have seen this desperate push for difficulty to bring in the hardcore crowd kill games faster and more effectively than casual games ever had. Re-read my points and come back when you understand them, and can give me counter arguements, for that is all I have to spare for this incoehent mess you have presented me with.

DragonBound · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Your not actually reading what I am typing and assuming I never said anything about going hardcore, I am simply talking about going way more casual and yes they do in fact swtor stripped rpg elements more and more going more casual and you listed literally one western mmorpg. Wow was easy and very shallow in general except in raiding. Even then there was not much depth.

Lol champions online never did well and skipped out on allot of content over the years it took them ages to release new content what are you even talking about? Wildstar relied on a more hardcore crowd only for raiding, and it was sub based not a good example.

Your under the misconception that casual is not the death when it in fact is, I have been playing mmorpgs for ages and watched this happen over and over again no matter what you say it will never change what I saw. You have no idea what I think, what I am telling you is that no mmorpg should go to the extreme side of casual or hardcore.

I did in fact read what you posted and posted counterarguements to your points. And you apparently didn''t read mine. I stated exactly what happened when Champions online released new content and why it failed. Wildstar was a game advertised as hardcore all the way. It drove off potential buisness -because- of that.

I have seen this desperate push for difficulty to bring in the hardcore crowd kill games faster and more effectively than casual games ever had. Re-read my points and come back when you understand them, and can give me counter arguements, for that is all I have to spare for this incoehent mess you have presented me with.

I edited some things but it is a little late and no you didnt you tried to make some bullcrap about champions online getting new content which is so far from the truth it is not laughing matter for those who wasted money on lifetime subs on that junk.

Lol as for your second reply here I am done with you, apparently your on some high horse thinking you know better then everyone else here, this is a game forum buddy your not on some tower and I can completely see through your bs. Champions online has done nothing but become more casual as it has been dying.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Your not actually reading what I am typing and assuming I never said anything about going hardcore, I am simply talking about going way more casual and yes they do in fact swtor stripped rpg elements more and more going more casual and you listed literally one western mmorpg. Wow was easy and very shallow in general except in raiding. Even then there was not much depth.

Lol champions online never did well and skipped out on allot of content over the years it took them ages to release new content what are you even talking about? Wildstar relied on a more hardcore crowd only for raiding, and it was sub based not a good example.

Your under the misconception that casual is not the death when it in fact is, I have been playing mmorpgs for ages and watched this happen over and over again no matter what you say it will never change what I saw. You have no idea what I think, what I am telling you is that no mmorpg should go to the extreme side of casual or hardcore.

I did in fact read what you posted and posted counterarguements to your points. And you apparently didn''t read mine. I stated exactly what happened when Champions online released new content and why it failed. Wildstar was a game advertised as hardcore all the way. It drove off potential buisness -because- of that.

I have seen this desperate push for difficulty to bring in the hardcore crowd kill games faster and more effectively than casual games ever had. Re-read my points and come back when you understand them, and can give me counter arguements, for that is all I have to spare for this incoehent mess you have presented me with.

I edited some things but it is a little late and no you didnt you tried to make some bullcrap about champions online getting new content which is so far from the truth it is not laughing matter for those who wasted money on lifetime subs on that junk.

Lol as for your second reply here I am done with you, apparently your on some high horse thinking you know better then everyone else here, this is a game forum buddy your not on some tower and I can completely see through your bs. Champions online has done nothing but become more casual as it has been dying.

The content in question was Telios Ascendant. It's most certainly not casual, and it's most certainly been the worst recieved update the game ever had. It's one hundred percent hardcore. It was released in febuary of this year, after years of inactivity, and it's what I've been refrencing this entire time.

I realize this is a forum. It's why I've been inviting for you to clarify what your actually arguing.

Have a wonderfull day.

DragonBound · December 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

I think there are many factors, lets go down a simple list we can all understand and relate to in order.
1. Developers wanted to attract everyone instead of loyal customers therefor making mmorpgs much more casual and easy mode. But usually ends up backfiring.
2. People complained and complained about group oriented mmorpgs not being solo friendly even though there where several solo classes that did quite while.
3. Easier to balance around endgame vs actually balancing around group content for all levels.
4. Now fast foward some years and we have new reasons, people are more toxic in gaming as more people game more then ever including online gaming.
5. No patience for grouping with these kinds of people who waste everyones time.
6. Less time for gaming in general especially these days, therefor no time for setting up groups and doing group content all the time.
7. Mmorpgs copying wow which was more casually friendly then any mmorpg I played before and in resulting in allot of bad clones.
8. In my experience some mmorpgs become more casual as they die out.

Now eso is far from any of this in my opinion. I think it is allot more group oriented then I have seen in mmos for a while.

1. No It does not. Swtor's raid debaucle is a great example, Shadows of the Hist in this game is a great example, content that isn't played by the vast majority and even some hardcore players because it's too hard to comfortibly do, and have fun at the same time. The reverse, is often true. They go hardcore to appeal to people, and people are not impressed. Wildstar, Swtor's raids, I could go on but you get the idea.

2. Never heard of this. Then again, I wouldn't wanna sit there having to deal with people every step of the way either.

3. This has allways been the case.

No comment on 4,5 and 6.

7. WoW may have been 'casual', but it was the design that taught effectively that made it so, not it's easiness. Something this game just does not have.

8. My experience is the opposite. Again, Wildstar, and so many others. Champions Online is a great example. Content after years of stagnation? A dungeon which was so hard, players who didn't sub couldn't compete. The result? No one ran it. A select few ran it, got rewards, got bored, and never ran it again.

The misconception is that the casual way of life is death. This is false. And laughibly so. The hardcore way of life, is death. Mostly because of how hardcore players want either new and progressively harder challenge than people can often provide, and the fact they usually come into clash with the rest of the playerbase. Cant cut it? Go to hell and we wont help you cuz git gud.

MMO's became solo because people got tired of dealing with this vocal minority.

Your not actually reading what I am typing and assuming I never said anything about going hardcore, I am simply talking about going way more casual and yes they do in fact swtor stripped rpg elements more and more going more casual and you listed literally one western mmorpg. Wow was easy and very shallow in general except in raiding. Even then there was not much depth.

Lol champions online never did well and skipped out on allot of content over the years it took them ages to release new content what are you even talking about? Wildstar relied on a more hardcore crowd only for raiding, and it was sub based not a good example.

Your under the misconception that casual is not the death when it in fact is, I have been playing mmorpgs for ages and watched this happen over and over again no matter what you say it will never change what I saw. You have no idea what I think, what I am telling you is that no mmorpg should go to the extreme side of casual or hardcore.

I did in fact read what you posted and posted counterarguements to your points. And you apparently didn''t read mine. I stated exactly what happened when Champions online released new content and why it failed. Wildstar was a game advertised as hardcore all the way. It drove off potential buisness -because- of that.

I have seen this desperate push for difficulty to bring in the hardcore crowd kill games faster and more effectively than casual games ever had. Re-read my points and come back when you understand them, and can give me counter arguements, for that is all I have to spare for this incoehent mess you have presented me with.

I edited some things but it is a little late and no you didnt you tried to make some bullcrap about champions online getting new content which is so far from the truth it is not laughing matter for those who wasted money on lifetime subs on that junk.

Lol as for your second reply here I am done with you, apparently your on some high horse thinking you know better then everyone else here, this is a game forum buddy your not on some tower and I can completely see through your bs. Champions online has done nothing but become more casual as it has been dying.

The content in question was Telios Ascendant. It's most certainly not casual, and it's most certainly been the worst recieved update the game ever had. It's one hundred percent hardcore.

Have a wonderfull day.

Yea because they are loosing people and where trying to attract vets back into the game, wow you named one thing which does not back up anything your trying to prove against my points for mmorpgs as a whole with your very small mmorpg experience of one single mmorpg have a nice day.

Xundiin · December 2016

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

One of the major reasons is that loot dropped, goes to everyone, fair share of loot.

What this means is, you no longer have to make connections with people to be sure everyone is fair and possibly give you the loot because you need it. With loot being separate for everyone it also takes away the interaction, and no interaction leads to no connection with others, and having no connections leads to playing solo.

Look at GW2, go do a megaboss, no interaction with people, everyone knows what is expected of them, get there own loot table, leave. No interaction at all, solo game. Yes giving everyone there own loot tables removes conflict. But the cons of it is that nobody interacts with each other, and no conflict is created and without conflict you feel like your playing the game all by yourself, with conflict you make enemies, and make friends as well. Gives you a reason to keep playing.

There's many reasons why MMORPGs went from playing with others to being a solo game, but I think this is one of the major reasons why.

No it didn't. The personal loot system is because people didn't want to interact. There where many many MMO's that you needed very little interaction with other players that was still group loot. But this annoyed people who didn't want to group, so they introduced personal loot to accommodate those people. personal loot didn't cause the solo in MMO trend. It's quite the opposite.

Riejael · December 2016

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Ok but that does not mean wow did not captilize on the casual mmorpg market, I played eq1 before you and after so you may want to rethink your point, eq was far from casual the things they added was much needed because it was way to time consuming it was still far from casual.

So what's your point?

I did the hardest content in Omens of War and players were still being jerks to one another outside their guilds (and sometimes to players in their guilds).

My point is casual MMOs didn't turn people into jerks. They were that way to begin with. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

drakhan2002_ESO · December 2016

inflaburwb17_ESO wrote: »

I blame "elitism" and intolerence. Just read the forums here of the so-called hardcore or more serious players' attitudes towards the more casual players, specifically referring to grouping for dungeons.

I honestly think that the group finder should have an additional filter, where a player can tick either a "serious / hardcore " or a "casual / relaxed" tickbox, and be grouped accordingly.

I play with my own build, and because its not a mainstream DPS or Tank or whatever build, it may not be as effective as it could be. But it works for my playing style. But I don't risk taking on dungeons as I expect abuse from the group because I'm now not doing enough damage, or have to take it a bit slower.

Reality? I have completed 1 dungeon... twice... since I started playing ESO in 2014. Fungal Grotto.

I agree with most of your post. However, one issue with your suggestion about "serious / hardcore" or "casual / relaxed" tickbox is that it would never work. At least it would not work if they offered the same rewards. All of the serious/hardcore would simply migrate to the casual/relaxed version to get their loot (and maybe play the hardcore version to change thing up)...there is not an easy solution to hardcore vs. casual grouping.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2016

Riejael wrote: »

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Ok but that does not mean wow did not captilize on the casual mmorpg market, I played eq1 before you and after so you may want to rethink your point, eq was far from casual the things they added was much needed because it was way to time consuming it was still far from casual.

So what's your point?

I did the hardest content in Omens of War and players were still being jerks to one another outside their guilds (and sometimes to players in their guilds).

My point is casual MMOs didn't turn people into jerks. They were that way to begin with. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

In addition to this, casual content does not kill MMO's, it drives away a vocal minority who dont want to put up with all the noobs who wont do what they say because they say it.

NewBlacksmurf · December 2016

Actually it's because that how humans design and behave.

Adding that for a while the most hyped or popular MMO games were extensions from a single player or RTs type .....a developer is making the new game for the existing player base but hopes to intrigue others as well but not everyone.

Everything that's open to all different types has by design been setup to seperate and divide due to prejudices, the need to feel special and to prevent highentened situations.

Neighborhoods, workplaces, malls, coliseums, etc.
back in the early 1990's when I started playing online I was literally one of three people who had the Internet.
I was the only one who played games on the internet so it was literally by design for the upper middle classes or the privaledged

Later as the Internet became more affordable, reasonable and accessible games were and continue with designs that allow intentional separation of classes or regions of the world.
It's all intentional but above is where I understand it to stem from.

inflaburwb17_ESO · December 2016

drakhan2002_ESO wrote: »

inflaburwb17_ESO wrote: »

I blame "elitism" and intolerence. Just read the forums here of the so-called hardcore or more serious players' attitudes towards the more casual players, specifically referring to grouping for dungeons.

I honestly think that the group finder should have an additional filter, where a player can tick either a "serious / hardcore " or a "casual / relaxed" tickbox, and be grouped accordingly.

I play with my own build, and because its not a mainstream DPS or Tank or whatever build, it may not be as effective as it could be. But it works for my playing style. But I don't risk taking on dungeons as I expect abuse from the group because I'm now not doing enough damage, or have to take it a bit slower.

Reality? I have completed 1 dungeon... twice... since I started playing ESO in 2014. Fungal Grotto.

I agree with most of your post. However, one issue with your suggestion about "serious / hardcore" or "casual / relaxed" tickbox is that it would never work. At least it would not work if they offered the same rewards. All of the serious/hardcore would simply migrate to the casual/relaxed version to get their loot (and maybe play the hardcore version to change thing up)...there is not an easy solution to hardcore vs. casual grouping.

I actual meant that the dynamics and difficulty level of the dungeon won't change based upon whether you choose hardcore or casual. It merely refers to whether or not you are willing to group with folks that will require more patience in completing the dungeon (casual group) and willingly set yourself up for this, or if you want to be part of the group where you need to be serious, know what you are doing, buffed and geared to the max hardcore.

Plynkes · December 2016

Last night I was playing another, different MMO. I was on a quest where I had to kill a particular boss. This boss has an incredibly long respawn time, so it is common to find a bunch of people waiting around for him to spawn. Last night I was the first there. Another person came along and we sensibly grouped up so we wouldn't be competing for the boss' attentions.

Then another two people came along. Refused to group with us. So for ten minutes or so we had to spam AOE attacks in the hope we would catch the respawning boss first and get credit for him. Luckily we managed it.

But this was NOT FUN. It was tedious and annoying. The way ESO does it is far more preferable, in my opinion. You may not have so much social contact with other players, but at least other anti-social players can't interfere with your having a good time they way they can when there is "first hit" mob-tagging.

Flameheart · December 2016

The reasons why people play solo, hate or despise grouping are numerous, but most certainly not because of a separated loot system. The separated loot system in ESO I think is even an improvement to those of other MMOs.

Phinix1 · December 2016

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

One of the major reasons is that loot dropped, goes to everyone, fair share of loot.

What this means is, you no longer have to make connections with people to be sure everyone is fair and possibly give you the loot because you need it. With loot being separate for everyone it also takes away the interaction, and no interaction leads to no connection with others, and having no connections leads to playing solo.

Look at GW2, go do a megaboss, no interaction with people, everyone knows what is expected of them, get there own loot table, leave. No interaction at all, solo game. Yes giving everyone there own loot tables removes conflict. But the cons of it is that nobody interacts with each other, and no conflict is created and without conflict you feel like your playing the game all by yourself, with conflict you make enemies, and make friends as well. Gives you a reason to keep playing.

There's many reasons why MMORPGs went from playing with others to being a solo game, but I think this is one of the major reasons why.

Forced interaction is NOT the kind of interaction that is needed.

Removing the need to stop and negotiate in chat over loot removes TEDIUM, not interaction. HEALTHY interaction is what we need, and that cannot be forced, it must be ENCOURAGED.

Ways to do this include guild-based content like daily quests and rep rewards, in-game voice chat (with voice modification profiles), and other things.

Not all interaction is good interaction. The kind of interaction that is eliminated by personal loot doesn't really add anything to the game or sense of community like the things I describe, so losing it is no great loss.

Fudly_budly · December 2016

Annalyse wrote: »

I play how I want to play, and dislike conforming to the mainstream. I probably don't do high enough DPS for most people and my healing is certainly second rate as well (I only really pull out the resto staff at world bosses), but overall I have fun and that is what matters to me.

Plus...
I have a life outside of gaming. This means I can't always join up for a quest tree until conclusion. Usually means I'll be soloing the quest boss anyway so why bother grouping.
And...
daily writs.
farming mats for guild trader stocking up. Resource nodes aren't group shared.
I like a slower pace. Not the dialogue click through, running, jumping, chaotic adrenaline mouse mashing play style.
I like to read the books.
I hate the bs in the chat window so I usually close it.
Finally, TES is known to me as a solo game. ESO is not what the TES gaming community asked for. We wanted CO-OP play not MMO. A model like Payday2 might have worked better.

Aurielle · December 2016

Has anyone considered the possibility that an aging core MMORPG playerbase may have contributed to the rise in soloing? Many of us here cut our MMO teeth on games like EQ, AC, WoW, LOTRO, etc. I'm one of them: started playing WoW in 2006, and LOTRO in 2008. I was in my late teens/early 20s back then, with no real attachments to speak of. I had plenty of free time to raid, participate in guild/kin events, and do other group-focused things. Fast forward to today: I'm almost 30, I have a long-term boyfriend (who doesn't play ESO), and I'm in an incredibly demanding academic program that will lead to an even more demanding job. Sh*t, I don't have time to group up as much as I used to. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for other former raiders who now have babies and minor hockey games to attend, and so on.

Here's an interesting article on how gamer motivations have a tendency to favour less competition with age: http://quanticfoundry.com/2016/02/10/gamer-generation/ There'll always be outliers, of course, but it's possible that as we age, we just aren't that interested in raid achievements and leaderboards anymore. Or, rather, we may still be generally interested in those sorts of things, but can't/won't invest the time needed to get there, so we do other stuff in-game that we enjoy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, IMO. I know for me, as well, I have less tolerance for BS than I did when I was younger and still felt the need to fit in/prove myself. I'm comfortable in my own gaming skin now and don't care about speed runs or BiS gear anymore; I just want to escape from RL for a little while and have a bit of fun. I have no patience for punk *** kids bellowing at a normal dungeon group for not clearing said dungeon in less than five minutes. I'd rather solo than deal with that, honestly. Fortunately, I haven't come across too many punk *** kids during my time here.

kevlarto_ESO · December 2016

I am sure there are many reasons mmo's have went more a solo route, and I am sad they did, I have been around these kind of games for along time my first graphical mmo was Meridian59, in the early days of mmo's the player base was tight and helpful, most everyone was there to enjoy a game with like minded people, and you needed to group the games where hard compared to what we have now, the journey was more important than end game.

People, players and the times have changed, so much nastiness in the forums and in games now, I am sure drives a lot of players to play solo, I miss the days when that kind of stuff was rare and when it reared it's ugly head in game those people more or less got ignored and no one would do anything for them.

If mmo's get much more solo friendly might as well just play single player games

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

Glurin wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

People moved to solo play because ----other people----

BINGO! We have a winner.

BTW OP, the reason loot tables went to individual players is because other people kept stealing the loot. Even under a need/greed roll system, people would roll on items just to steal them from others. And despite what you may be thinking, third party rolls and dkp systems are far from fair or "on the level". Individual loot tables actually gave people a chance to get even the basic gear they need without having to run the same content fifty times or more.

Ninja loot had nothing to do with it games went to round robin , assigned, or ffa dice role 10 plus years ago.people had relationships with people they played with and for content that mattered And had loot you needed to be communicating on voice Com pugging a group usually meant it went leader assigned I've never had a pug leader assign group hand my tank gear to a mage. They went everyone gets a loot because people are entitled cry babies. Truthfully these new mmos that are coming out have no longevity because there in no in game society. Guilds are McDonald's franchises with a constant churn of players. And when someone was found out to be a ninja, Asian gold farmer,or a hole player. They were black listed by the community in game. The OP has a point foodstamp epics, special snowflake participation gear . I don't think there is more then 10 orginal launch guilds still in eso.out of 10k plus. Guilds used to transfer mmos together. I still play with people from Eq1,2 but I could not even tell you a first name of anyone I've met in game past 2008.

Sprotch_16_ESO · December 2016

Aurielle wrote: »

Has anyone considered the possibility that an aging core MMORPG playerbase may have contributed to the rise in soloing? Many of us here cut our MMO teeth on games like EQ, AC, WoW, LOTRO, etc. I'm one of them: started playing WoW in 2006, and LOTRO in 2008. I was in my late teens/early 20s back then, with no real attachments to speak of. I had plenty of free time to raid, participate in guild/kin events, and do other group-focused things. Fast forward to today: I'm almost 30, I have a long-term boyfriend (who doesn't play ESO), and I'm in an incredibly demanding academic program that will lead to an even more demanding job. Sh*t, I don't have time to group up as much as I used to. I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for other former raiders who now have babies and minor hockey games to attend, and so on.

Here's an interesting article on how gamer motivations have a tendency to favour less competition with age: http://quanticfoundry.com/2016/02/10/gamer-generation/ There'll always be outliers, of course, but it's possible that as we age, we just aren't that interested in raid achievements and leaderboards anymore. Or, rather, we may still be generally interested in those sorts of things, but can't/won't invest the time needed to get there, so we do other stuff in-game that we enjoy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, IMO. I know for me, as well, I have less tolerance for BS than I did when I was younger and still felt the need to fit in/prove myself. I'm comfortable in my own gaming skin now and don't care about speed runs or BiS gear anymore; I just want to escape from RL for a little while and have a bit of fun. I have no patience for punk *** kids bellowing at a normal dungeon group for not clearing said dungeon in less than five minutes. I'd rather solo than deal with that, honestly. Fortunately, I haven't come across too many punk *** kids during my time here.

This ^^

I played WoW in 2004-2005, was in a guild that demanded their members to be online more than 40 hours a week. That was no problem for me then.

But now, I have a wife, 2 children, and a Khajiit I raised with a baby bottle from when it was 2 days old (I kid you not !).

At the end of the day I simply do not have the time nor the mood to try to explain that my build will do fine, even if it's not meta and will not do top DPS. I want to relax, play as I want, and escape RL for a brief moment....

Wolfshead · December 2016

@qsnoopyjr

Nothing off what say make any sense at all i play always with my gf and some join up with real life friends and we have no problem be fair share of loot and if anyone need a gear or item that is better then have we trader between us but that is very often it happen i dont know what game you play but the ESO we are playing make loot fair to everyone.

But for me personal i have come to the point gear for me is pointless for i have max out my craft when come to research and way to much mats all other thing so i can craft what every i want i personal just want gold now.

So personal i can gave away gear to my gf or friends if the need it.

Fudly_budly · December 2016

RL trumps gaming! I'll logout anytime for my wife or kids period!

Hodicus · December 2016

Abeille wrote: »

The cause would be money. "Play how you want" attracts players more easily than forced content of any kind. It is easier to play how you want when you don't have to deal with other people's expectations. More players, more money.

Pretty much sums it up to me.

Wifeaggro13 · December 2016

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I am sure there are many reasons mmo's have went more a solo route, and I am sad they did, I have been around these kind of games for along time my first graphical mmo was Meridian59, in the early days of mmo's the player base was tight and helpful, most everyone was there to enjoy a game with like minded people, and you needed to group the games where hard compared to what we have now, the journey was more important than end game.

People, players and the times have changed, so much nastiness in the forums and in games now, I am sure drives a lot of players to play solo, I miss the days when that kind of stuff was rare and when it reared it's ugly head in game those people more or less got ignored and no one would do anything for them.

If mmo's get much more solo friendly might as well just play single player games

I agree. There are some new games on the horizon that are aiming for a smaller longer lasting player base. Wow started it with foodstamp gear to appease the very young player and very casual. Which was fine it was the complete sell out cash in of corporate mmo design that has taken the genre to a solo player shallow game design philosphy. It's designed to sell big churn churn churn for a 5 year cycle, then fade of into the sunset with fat pockets .

jaye63 · December 2016

You're all wrong. Speaking from my group of friends who I have play many games with...

People solo because they have differing ideas of what they want to accomplish in the game. Some want to rush to the *end game* content(some bored with the process - some dont care). Some people want to experience the entire game(every quest every achievement) and those in between.

Im the flower sniffer. I want to experience the entire game. I read the books, I set up a crafter early, I do all of the quests. I get to endgame when I get there. Kevin rushes to endgame, gets the uber gear and stays mostly in end game and doesnt much care about the achievements or completing all of the quests unless it gets him an item or skill point. Justin is in between. Once we are all at end game, we make an unbeatable team. Thru this method, we gather others. Sometimes they can hang, sometimes they cant. But all 3 of us mostly solo on the way because... play style.

The only *right* statement in this thread is that we solo because of other people. Other people are dorks, jerks or juvenile. Other people have conflicting schedules. Other people dont like our style of humor(neither do we but we're friends so it doesnt matter) It has nothing to do with the game design.

Peekachu99 · December 2016

Has everything to do with online and social media trends and very little to do with loot or whatever the flimsy supposition that started this thread suggests.

People (believe themselves or are) are simply too busy to overly invest in the classic time-hooks of these games. I don't think that's a bad thing, though some of the tricks developers and platform holders employ to compensate for revenue lost through subscription services can be questionable.

But there's so much choice and variety that it's not worth getting worked up over.

drakhan2002_ESO · December 2016

Fudly_budly wrote: »

RL trumps gaming! I'll logout anytime for my wife or kids period!

I totally agree. I do the same. I've been playing MMOs since 2001...seen lots of titles come and go (Earth and Beyond, etc.)...been a member or leader of countless guilds...spent thousands of dollars on this hobby over those 15+ years. But family/RL...it always comes first.

Peekachu99 · December 2016

drakhan2002_ESO wrote: »

Fudly_budly wrote: »

RL trumps gaming! I'll logout anytime for my wife or kids period!

I totally agree. I do the same.

That's a big thing that changed between gaming in my 20s and now my 30s. No matter how "important" my gaming moment at the time is, it should always be dropped for family, romance or real life commitments.

Panda_iMunch · December 2016

It is true this game can be played without many people. It was designed that way and it's the way most people play games in general. People have their own ways.

That said, humans also like interaction with others when they want to do bigger things and this game offers that option, which no other Elder Scrolls games offer.